Why would anyone want to give him any money to buy himself a new fiddle? Can't he use some of his own money like everyone else? Surely, there are much worthier causes!
"Because some of us feel we are indebted to him for the music he has given us."
Well if you owe him money then by all means pay it back!
But, otherwise, he's not exactly someone without means, so why not fund some real cause for someone in real need, and who doesn't have pots of cash to hand already.
Was the fiddle insured against theft?
Not that money "to the value of" can ever replace a valued instrument that has been part of you for most of your playing life and is therefore virtually impossible to replace "as is". We're not talking about cars or other mechanical items here.
Does he really need/want us to help him buy a fiddle? If someone stole my fiddle, I wouldn't want or expect anyone to help me in that way. It would feel awkward. Losing your fiddle is like losing part of your anatomy...
Maybe someone will GIVE him a fiddle. Bet HE can make any old fiddle sound good.
I have a better idea. Lets give money to help some impoverished youngster with a passion for the music get his hands on a fiddle. It will no doubt change his life!
whistleblower: Just because somebody is famous (in a very small, specialized community) that doesn't necessarily mean they're rich. Tommy's web site (which is not tommypeoples.com, he doesn't have his own domain name) says he gets no royalties from Bothy Band albums.
And how about a little respect for somebody who is indisputably the real deal, in Irish trad, and has been for years?
I hope somebody comes up with a good fiddle for him, so he can give the money to charily or something.
You don't need to be rich to buy an excellent hand made violin? Far, far better fiddlers have to buy their own. And has he actually asked for a benefit fund to be set up in his name?
"...royalties from Bothy Band albums..." I thought there was just one album with him on it, after which he was fired.
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund??????????????????????????
"It requires no other discussion."
OK then, self-appointed master of discussions!!!?
It is possible to insure musical instruments, and it is possible to extend the insurance to include unattended cars. So why is this a special case? Again, why single out him for free cash, given that more needy, more worthy, and more traditional players get instruments stolen all the time? Struggling musicians (and, in fact, poor people) surely deserve this money more.
while technically somewhat valid points, there are many reasons why a person might want to give money to Tommy Peoples - maybe they really love his compositions, or they feel guilty for cornering him outside one of his concerts, or even guiltier because their town once was disrespectful toward his accompanist. No need to interfere with those people going about their business. Mudcat has some images of the stolen fiddle - I guess that's where to go for actual information.
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund???????????? Genuine Need????
And perhaps, like many professional musicians, he has more than one playable instrument! Has anyone actually checked if he's really in a state of financial desperation, or if he's just reported the theft of a fiddle to the police?
I just said I wasn't trying to invalidate the previous points - I was just pointing out that there's room for a little thing that we like to call here in the US "freedom"
I did notice that most of those recommending giving money for no good reason to someone who already has money are from the US. That's what we call "US Capitalism".
Since no-one else appears to be leaping to his defence ...
I'd have to disagree that Tommy Peoples is either unworthy, untraditional or out of tune, as whistleblower implied. As to whether he has "pots of money", I'd have to plead ignorance. But it seems unlikely to me.
Not that I'm disagreeing that there may be "worthier causes" - there always are. But giving to this one will give some people a good warm feeling, and that in itself seems no bad thing.
With the money we spend on buying our kids Christmas presents, throwing a dinner party for our friends or staying in nice hotels, we could probably save a lot of lives. But we make our own choices.
There are far, far better fiddlers than Tommy Peoples? Really? Boy, sure wish I knew who those fiddlers are---I'd love to hear 'em.
What a stupid thread this has become, as usual on this site. Always a few dimwits who would go out and draw faces on Coleman's headstone. No respect whatsoever. And you make all the rest of us look stupid just by being associated with the conversation.
Somehow, I find it difficult to believe that Mr. Peoples was withuot a fiddle to play for more than a few hours.
I strongly doubt that he is without friends who would see to it he had a decent one, be it a loaner or a gift.
Also, the point already made above, suggesting it is the fiddler, not the instrument, that really makes the music, is largely true (IMHO). Carrying it a bit further, I would not have much time to waste on any fiddler (even if it were the amazing Mr. Peoples) who, being handed any decent fiddle, would say "not good enough."
Does anyone here think he would be so small-minded and ungrateful? I expect he has a fiddle already, thank you.
Send your dollars to your local FD/EMTs.
Whilst Mr Peoples' musicianship and the pleasure we gain from hearing him is unquestionable I don't think that should be the point here. I cannot imagine him being more heartbroken than I (or many of you out there!) would be if I had my instrument stolen. The responsibility for it starts and ends with me so I take care of it as if it were my own child! I couldn't expect anyone to start a fund for me because I forgot to look after it. I feel for him but, c'est la vie!
'Given that there were a couple of hundred people in all at the three concerts and two workshops, this could make a significant dent in the costs to Tommy. 2009-09-17:'
It's mostly for the people who saw him recently or, as has been said, feel grateful for the music he has given us.
There is obviously no obligation and if you don't wish to contribute that's fine, there is no need to tell us why not.
Wasn't it Joshua Bell himself who left a $3 MILLION violin in a NY taxi cab??? I'm sure that was taken care of swiftly, and as spoken many times above, I'd be quite certain that Mr. Peoples' fiddle was promptly replaced. I don't believe for a moment that he requested this fund, so there must be very caring people around him to make this effort. Support it if you wish, as was very well put by eames59.
"There are far, far better fiddlers than Tommy Peoples? Really?"
I've never understood this hero worship for what is basically a run of the mill pub session player, whose 'traditional' style was invented by himself, with a questionable grasp of intonation and rhythm. It is frankly an indication of decay within the tradition, stemming from musicians who, while they are part of the international pub session craze, have a fairly tenuous relationship to the Irish musical tradition. It’s really not at all like desecrating Coleman’s tomb, if you knew more about traditional music you would realize this.
No doubt I’ve got a lot to learn about this music, but I love Tommy’s playing, whether you want to all it traditional or not. He’s definitely created his own, personal style. Instantly recognizable. He’s not run of the mill, he’s one in a million.
[As an aside, Coleman isn’t in a tomb per se; I believe he’s in a single plot grave in St Raymond’s in the Bronx. Billie Holiday, Mary Mallon (aka Typhoid Mary), Red Allen the jazz trumpeter and various mafiosa are also interred there. It’s on my list of pilgrimages, along with the Notre Dame University library, with their original editions of O’Neill’s.]
some junkie probably pinched the fiddle sold it to a second hand shop nearby where its sitting for sale probably for about forty quid so old tommy can have a wander round buy his old strad copy and have enough lefy off his hundred quid to get a good set of strings a mars bar and a packet of cheese and onion crisps.and then start scraping away again ,never rated him much as a fiddler compared to the likes of coleman, jean carignan NOW he was a fiddler in amillion.
Sad reflection, but no surprise, on human nature, especially with anonymity on this thread. I don’t know Tommy Peoples, but his music and reputation, as far as I am aware, is of the highest order. Whistleblower you seem to have an expert opinion that TP is not that great a fiddle payer – I cannot believe that so many who enjoy his music can be wrong! Let’s hear you then...
The sad reflection here is that so many people think that he's better playing than the many many good TRADITIONAL players, whose music belongs to a genuine regional style. (And placing his playing alongside the masters of traditional fiddling is simply ludicrous.)
"I cannot believe that so many who enjoy his music can be wrong! Let’s hear you then..."
By that primitive rationale The Spice Girls are better than any fiddler, because many more people seem to like them. Are they wrong? Sure they are.
And if you ever do hear me you will notice that I play in tune, in a Donegal style that has a strong rhythm, and that I didn’t invent myself and try to pass it off as traditional.
According to Tom Carmody, who was James Morrison's accordion player, Michael Coleman left his fiddle on the seat when he got off of the subway after a gig in New Jersey. Never saw it again.
Whistleblower seems to have a chip on his shoulder. Something personal, I wonder?
By whistleblower's rationale, there are no traditional players that anyone outside of a locality would have ever heard of. Most of the well-known players I can name have their own distinct musical personalities, from Tommy Potts (the most obvious example) to Kevin Burke, Martin Hayes, Matt Molloy, Liz Carroll, Caoimhin O'Raghallaigh, Paddy Keenan...basically anyone who's not dead fits into that category.
Whatever. It's a shame we don't have recordings of players before Coleman, because I'm sure Coleman was an innovator in his day as well, and that there were plenty of people who said he was ruining the tradition. Foxtrots! Horrors!
"Kevin Burke, Martin Hayes, Matt Molloy, Liz Carroll, Caoimhín Ó Raghallaigh, Paddy Keenan..." are all fantastic players.
You can be innovative and still be good, still be true to the tradition. Neillie Boyle and John Doherty were both innovators. But they came from a position where they were in full possession of the musical tradition, and could innovate from within the tradition. That’s quite different from making it up as you go along.
Coleman was often blamed for introducing standardization, because of his popularity. But you can’t blame him for the effects his popularity has had.
[As for Seán McGuire, he was an amateur classical violinist who thought Irish music was easy (and also thought playing in tune was something to be avoided). And Frankie Gavin seems to think that US bowing and badly played Bach makes him a master fiddler; Less squeaking, more music! He hasn’t realised that there’s more to music than making money.] Come to think of it, when did you last see Tommy Peoples smiling while playing? It might explain why his music comes off a bit dour!
And Foxtrots, like Barndances and the rest of the circa 1900 dance crazes that many people (mostly Donegal in my experience) are pushing as “real” traditional music these days, are just tunes people play. Why not play tunes from all over? A fiddler I know compared it to preserving tunes from The Beatles as traditional because Davy Spillane has recorded Beatles tunes. I love Davy Spillane’s playing, and his innovations (some at least). By all means play The Beatles, but we don’t pretend it’s traditional Irish music; likewise for popular Austrian dances from the 1900s!
First of all, just in response to 'kennedy' , there are actually recordings made before Coleman, done in the mid to late 1800s, for instance Edward Cronin, McFadden and Early, and of course Patsy Tuohey. Theyre great music if ye can get your hands on them, but the quality might put some people off, but they show that the way Coleman played was more common throughout Irish music history than some might think.
oh and sorry, but in my opinion kevin burke and mister o'raghallaigh should really not be in your list of great players there, extremely overrated. Maybe liz carroll aswell but only because of her more recent stuff, some of her first recordings are good, but shes a totally different player now.
Again 'whistleblower', id think twice before saying that Coleman was an instigator for 'standardisation'. just going back to the earlier recordings example there from the 1800s. virtuoso playing was, contrary to what many believe, always prevalent in the music. I think we can forget about this idealistic type of view of scratchy music at the crossroads. And anyway im sure you'll agree that standardisation was introduced with the advent of competition and Comhaltas Ceoltoiri Eireann, who seem to think that regional styles can be condensed into around 12 or so tunes with its so called 'Irish muisc 'exams'.
I think you're missing the point a bit about peoples' playing. I agree somewhat with you. I do notice that he, unlike any other fiddle player, has a incredibly loyal following who believe that everything he has ever done and continues to do to this day is brilliant. (Personally I like his playing but this is based on old recordings, not the way he has been playing in the last couple of years because lets face it he is getting old and has lost some of his touch but you cant take his previous good work away from him.) Sure plenty of my favourite fiddle players have done some absolute crap stuff, and I'll be the first to say it.
But back to the point, you pontificate whistleblower about this curse of standardisation, and yet you contradict yourself by complaining that Peoples is not 'true donegal fiddle playing'. or irish traditional playing for that matter.
But i agree with the statement he is not a donegal style. He created his own unique style, much in the way Sean Keane has.
You say that he is not as good as the many TRADITIONAL (in capital letters naturally) players that are around. But what do you class as traditional? Surely you are not saying that there is a standard set of characteristics that define it when you also curse the introduction of this standardisation? You also say you love Davy Spillane, another contradiction...good technically he may be but he is surely at the other end of the spectrum as regards traditional. Compared to Tommy Peoples anyway.
And Frankie Gavin and US style bowing? maybe nowadays but his older stuff is great.
"Come to think of it, when did you last see Tommy Peoples smiling while playing? It might explain why his music comes off a bit dour!"
Complaining about smiling when playing? Haha, this is another silly Comhaltas thing, smiling when playing. Do you honestly believe in this statement? And im sorry but Peoples music certainly isnt dour, Im beginning to think that you actually havent listened to recordings like 'The Iron Man', 'High Part of the Road' or the recordings with Alec Finn on 'Waiting for a Call'. I wouldnt call these dour at all.
"Neillie Boyle and John Doherty were both innovators. But they came from a position where they were in full possession of the musical tradition, and could innovate from within the tradition. That’s quite different from making it up as you go along."
Hmm, and how are you so sure about Peoples' musical background and upbringing? Its a bit of an exaggeration at best to say hes making it up as he goes along. This talk of playing out of tune and stuff, he does play some notes out of tune, but its wrong to write him off because of this. There are plenty of great fiddle players who play out of tune sometimes, ever heard Brian Rooney, Martin Byrnes,and yes, even Coleman played out of tune sometimes. But people still regard them as great players.
"questionable grasp of intonation and rhythm."
Wrong again. Im sure someone who holds himself (or herself) so highly would know that intonation and rhythm in styles of Irish music changes. The emphasis is different from Donegal and say Clare, or Sliabh Luachra and Sligo.
You're missin the whole definition of traditional music. The idea of what is traditional is relative, its changed over time. If we wanted to we could all nitpick and say, well the fiddle isnt traditional because its not Irish, or we could even say that Donegal fiddle playing isnt traditional at all because a lot of the tunes are scottish and its different from other types of Irish fiddle playing. But whats the point? Because at the end of the day this type of thing has been accpeted to the tradition as have other things over the years.
As regards the fiddle fund, of course there are other more worthwhile charities but if someone wants to set this up or contribute to it and part with their own cash then let them! you dont have to give money, so dont! Free country! and you might think that peoples has 'pots of cash to hand out already', im sure he has other fiddles but, loads of money? this couldnt be further from the truth, and thats from a good authority . How much do you think an Irish musician makes?
Well, if you insist… (I was going to let it go, but whatever!)
I have listened to 'The Iron Man' among other CDs of his, and I stand by my judgement of his playing.
“I’d think twice before saying that Coleman was an instigator for 'standardisation'.”
I never said or even implied that he was. I said he can’t be blamed for being popular. His popularity led to people copying him, and then, quite right due to Comhaltas, to standardization. (Matt Molloy’s remarkable and distinctive flute-playing has likewise led to thousands of traditional flautists emulating him, which leads to some standardization, and loss of regional styles in playing. Again, not his fault!) I agree that the dire Comhaltas has enforced a standardization by its competition culture and its bizarre attitude to promotion of Irish music as an international commodity, any actual tradition be damned! (“A stereotyped revivalism”, Séamus Tansey called it!)
I don’t disagree that “virtuoso playing” has always been a feature of the tradition since the old harpers, pipers and fiddlers. An Piobaire Mór, Tarlach Mac Suibhne, is an example from Donegal in the 19th Century. And Donegal had a plentiful supply of incredibly skilled fiddlers in the early 20th century (though, for some reason, the recent rewriting of that history tries to downplay this truth, so John Doherty can be emerge as virtually the only worthwhile player.)
And as for “scratchy music”, what I’m complaining about is this being mistaken for the best fiddling around.
“But I agree with the statement he is not a Donegal style. He created his own unique style, much in the way Seán Keane has.”
Fine then! Where we disagree is that some of us don’t think he’s very good, and that lauding him as a master of the ‘tradition’ is a mistake. One problem with his popularity is that he has influenced people who now play in HIS style, thinking it’s a traditional style from Donegal. Some people from the Rosses are abandoning the local style in favour of his, because they are being told that their style is not Donegal style, whereas his is! (I’m sure this will not be disputed.) And people all over copy his kind of ‘Irish triplets/ trebles’ (or whatever people are calling them these days – lots of Donegal fiddlers call them ‘birls’, as in Scotland), which are played by him without pitch, not remotely like they were played anywhere in Donegal (listen to any of the early players, the birls are clean and definitely pitched.) And on “intonation and rhythm” I still stand by what I said. He’s not a master, he’s an average session fiddle player. This has all been said before: http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/20477
The point about smiling was not really a musical point. I prefer a grim dour gaze to an artificial Tony Blair smile any day. It’s just that he never looks like he’s enjoying himself, and I think it shows in the music lacking rhythm and lift. (Nothing really hangs on this being accepted, just my opinion. It appears you disagree.)
I know tradition involves innovation. The concert flute was not much played in Donegal. The late Frankie Kennedy’s playing adopted some of the Donegal fiddle style in a new departure for flute in Irish music (combined with the less pointed Fermanagh tradition), and adds to the tradition in a good way. Simply fantastic music. Some fine Donegal flute players (some coming I think from the fife band tradition that was popular there) have an even sharper attack, even closer to the staccato bowing, and certainly a fresh departure for concert flute. But an understanding of the tradition is necessary before innovation can result in something really good. Perhaps, as with Coleman, I should direct my concern to those emulating Tommy Peoples rather than himself, but I stand by my judgment. And in my opinion the elevation of many of the players popular in the folk revival of the 1970s to the status of masters of the musical tradition is overall detrimental to its survival.
My original objection was to the "far, far better fiddlers" comment. No one has to like any particular musician---everyone has their own preferences---but we're talking about Tommy Peoples here, who has been a well-known, well-regarded Irish fiddler for most of his life, and has done more for Irish traditional music than any one of us will ever do. The recordings and performances are only part of his contributions---he also teaches, and he's written some lovely tunes that have been welcomed into the tradition. Everyone I know who's met him says he's a very nice man as well. He deserves our respect, and not to be dismissed as just any old pub session player, which he most certainly is not.
Takes all kinds, to make a world. As the great philosopher and bon vivant Kinky Friedman once wrote (expletive undeleted of course), "Long ago he and I had come to the conclusion that the only people in life truly worth knowing were the a**holes. They're usually smarter and more consistent, and you never waste any time wondering if they're just trying to be nice."
Besides, it can fun to wind 'em up.
So... how about that Eileen Ivers? Aidan Burke? Ashley MacIsaac? (tee hee)
Kinky Friedman---there's a good example. This discussion is the same as someone like Kinky Friedman putting down Willie Nelson for not singing in tune or with the right rhythm. Kinky is pals with Willie, so he must think that's fine. And then there are all the Willie Nelson acolytes who think they need to sing just like Willie Nelson. It's scandalous! And just look what's happened to country music. It's all Willie Nelson's fault.
"far far better" fiddlers than Mr Peoples? Yes, I would like some names too, always game to hear a good player. Having heard him play the day after his fiddle was stolen, I am astounded to learn that I was listening to an "average session player". Might as well give up now, then, if Mr P is "average". Jings, what does that make the most of the rest of us ...
Also I didn't know, until I read this thread, that Kevin Burke isn't up to snuff either. Is there an element of "begrudgery" in some opinions? James Joyce, when parcelling out the Seven Deadly Sins among the nations of Europe awarded envy to Ireland. Occasionally I have found it among non-Irish converts to ITM as well.
Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund
Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund
A link from Mudcat:
http://www.kentfolk.com/TommysFiddle/
# Posted on September 18th 2009 by eames59
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund???
Why would anyone want to give him any money to buy himself a new fiddle? Can't he use some of his own money like everyone else? Surely, there are much worthier causes!
# Posted on September 19th 2009 by klhsadhfahslkdfhsalk
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund
"Why would anyone want to give him any money to buy himself a new fiddle?"
Because some of us feel we are indebted to him for the music he has given us.
# Posted on September 19th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund
Whoops. Thought the thread said 'found'.
# Posted on September 19th 2009 by EnDaC
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund??? Seriously????
"Because some of us feel we are indebted to him for the music he has given us."
Well if you owe him money then by all means pay it back!
But, otherwise, he's not exactly someone without means, so why not fund some real cause for someone in real need, and who doesn't have pots of cash to hand already.
# Posted on September 20th 2009 by klhsadhfahslkdfhsalk
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund
Was the fiddle insured against theft?
Not that money "to the value of" can ever replace a valued instrument that has been part of you for most of your playing life and is therefore virtually impossible to replace "as is". We're not talking about cars or other mechanical items here.
# Posted on September 20th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund
Does he really need/want us to help him buy a fiddle? If someone stole my fiddle, I wouldn't want or expect anyone to help me in that way. It would feel awkward. Losing your fiddle is like losing part of your anatomy...
Maybe someone will GIVE him a fiddle. Bet HE can make any old fiddle sound good.
# Posted on September 20th 2009 by irishfiddles
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund
I have a better idea. Lets give money to help some impoverished youngster with a passion for the music get his hands on a fiddle. It will no doubt change his life!
# Posted on September 20th 2009 by irishfiddles
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund????
"Bet HE can make any old fiddle sound good."
Really? What about the last one?
Still, maybe his next fiddle will play in tune!
# Posted on September 20th 2009 by klhsadhfahslkdfhsalk
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund
whistleblower: Just because somebody is famous (in a very small, specialized community) that doesn't necessarily mean they're rich. Tommy's web site (which is not tommypeoples.com, he doesn't have his own domain name) says he gets no royalties from Bothy Band albums.
And how about a little respect for somebody who is indisputably the real deal, in Irish trad, and has been for years?
I hope somebody comes up with a good fiddle for him, so he can give the money to charily or something.
# Posted on September 20th 2009 by John Galt
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund???????
You don't need to be rich to buy an excellent hand made violin? Far, far better fiddlers have to buy their own. And has he actually asked for a benefit fund to be set up in his name?
"...royalties from Bothy Band albums..." I thought there was just one album with him on it, after which he was fired.
"...indisputably the real deal"?
the what now? There is actually a despute amongst Irish fiddle players:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/20477
# Posted on September 20th 2009 by klhsadhfahslkdfhsalk
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund
I don't know all there is to know about it. But the link does not say he asked for the fund, himself.
I think his contribution to Irish fiddling stands on its own. Not my personal favorite, it happens, but that's a matter of taste.
# Posted on September 20th 2009 by John Galt
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund
This is a ridiculous discussion. If you want to donate to the Tommy Peoples fiddle replacement fund - just do it.
His contribution to the form is established, excellent, and if folks can offer him some funds to support his art, that's what is needed.
It requires no other discussion.
http://www.kentfolk.com/TommysFiddle/
# Posted on September 20th 2009 by Toppish
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund??????????????????????????
"It requires no other discussion."
OK then, self-appointed master of discussions!!!?
It is possible to insure musical instruments, and it is possible to extend the insurance to include unattended cars. So why is this a special case? Again, why single out him for free cash, given that more needy, more worthy, and more traditional players get instruments stolen all the time? Struggling musicians (and, in fact, poor people) surely deserve this money more.
# Posted on September 20th 2009 by klhsadhfahslkdfhsalk
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund
while technically somewhat valid points, there are many reasons why a person might want to give money to Tommy Peoples - maybe they really love his compositions, or they feel guilty for cornering him outside one of his concerts, or even guiltier because their town once was disrespectful toward his accompanist. No need to interfere with those people going about their business. Mudcat has some images of the stolen fiddle - I guess that's where to go for actual information.
# Posted on September 20th 2009 by airport
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund???????????????? Honestly!!
Eh? Is this a serious point? If it is, how does it invalidate the previous points?
# Posted on September 20th 2009 by klhsadhfahslkdfhsalk
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund???????????? Genuine Need????
And perhaps, like many professional musicians, he has more than one playable instrument! Has anyone actually checked if he's really in a state of financial desperation, or if he's just reported the theft of a fiddle to the police?
# Posted on September 20th 2009 by klhsadhfahslkdfhsalk
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund
I just said I wasn't trying to invalidate the previous points - I was just pointing out that there's room for a little thing that we like to call here in the US "freedom"
# Posted on September 20th 2009 by airport
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund?????????????
I did notice that most of those recommending giving money for no good reason to someone who already has money are from the US. That's what we call "US Capitalism".
# Posted on September 20th 2009 by klhsadhfahslkdfhsalk
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund
Since no-one else appears to be leaping to his defence ...
I'd have to disagree that Tommy Peoples is either unworthy, untraditional or out of tune, as whistleblower implied. As to whether he has "pots of money", I'd have to plead ignorance. But it seems unlikely to me.
Not that I'm disagreeing that there may be "worthier causes" - there always are. But giving to this one will give some people a good warm feeling, and that in itself seems no bad thing.
# Posted on September 20th 2009 by ethical blend
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund
"Surely, there are much worthier causes!"
With the money we spend on buying our kids Christmas presents, throwing a dinner party for our friends or staying in nice hotels, we could probably save a lot of lives. But we make our own choices.
# Posted on September 20th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund
"Far, far better fiddlers have to buy their own"
There are far, far better fiddlers than Tommy Peoples? Really? Boy, sure wish I knew who those fiddlers are---I'd love to hear 'em.
What a stupid thread this has become, as usual on this site. Always a few dimwits who would go out and draw faces on Coleman's headstone. No respect whatsoever. And you make all the rest of us look stupid just by being associated with the conversation.
# Posted on September 20th 2009 by kennedy
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund
A bit of common sense, I hope:
Somehow, I find it difficult to believe that Mr. Peoples was withuot a fiddle to play for more than a few hours.
I strongly doubt that he is without friends who would see to it he had a decent one, be it a loaner or a gift.
Also, the point already made above, suggesting it is the fiddler, not the instrument, that really makes the music, is largely true (IMHO). Carrying it a bit further, I would not have much time to waste on any fiddler (even if it were the amazing Mr. Peoples) who, being handed any decent fiddle, would say "not good enough."
Does anyone here think he would be so small-minded and ungrateful? I expect he has a fiddle already, thank you.
Send your dollars to your local FD/EMTs.
Just my two cents.
# Posted on September 20th 2009 by Piece
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund
Whilst Mr Peoples' musicianship and the pleasure we gain from hearing him is unquestionable I don't think that should be the point here. I cannot imagine him being more heartbroken than I (or many of you out there!) would be if I had my instrument stolen. The responsibility for it starts and ends with me so I take care of it as if it were my own child! I couldn't expect anyone to start a fund for me because I forgot to look after it. I feel for him but, c'est la vie!
# Posted on September 20th 2009 by boxershort
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund
Just to quote from the link:
'Given that there were a couple of hundred people in all at the three concerts and two workshops, this could make a significant dent in the costs to Tommy. 2009-09-17:'
It's mostly for the people who saw him recently or, as has been said, feel grateful for the music he has given us.
There is obviously no obligation and if you don't wish to contribute that's fine, there is no need to tell us why not.
# Posted on September 20th 2009 by eames59
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund
Wasn't it Joshua Bell himself who left a $3 MILLION violin in a NY taxi cab??? I'm sure that was taken care of swiftly, and as spoken many times above, I'd be quite certain that Mr. Peoples' fiddle was promptly replaced. I don't believe for a moment that he requested this fund, so there must be very caring people around him to make this effort. Support it if you wish, as was very well put by eames59.
# Posted on September 20th 2009 by Fort Wayne Fiddler
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund
Star violinist performs with a thank you to cabbies
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLojneOvKZs&feature
# Posted on September 20th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund????????
"There are far, far better fiddlers than Tommy Peoples? Really?"
I've never understood this hero worship for what is basically a run of the mill pub session player, whose 'traditional' style was invented by himself, with a questionable grasp of intonation and rhythm. It is frankly an indication of decay within the tradition, stemming from musicians who, while they are part of the international pub session craze, have a fairly tenuous relationship to the Irish musical tradition. It’s really not at all like desecrating Coleman’s tomb, if you knew more about traditional music you would realize this.
# Posted on September 20th 2009 by klhsadhfahslkdfhsalk
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund
No doubt I’ve got a lot to learn about this music, but I love Tommy’s playing, whether you want to all it traditional or not. He’s definitely created his own, personal style. Instantly recognizable. He’s not run of the mill, he’s one in a million.
[As an aside, Coleman isn’t in a tomb per se; I believe he’s in a single plot grave in St Raymond’s in the Bronx. Billie Holiday, Mary Mallon (aka Typhoid Mary), Red Allen the jazz trumpeter and various mafiosa are also interred there. It’s on my list of pilgrimages, along with the Notre Dame University library, with their original editions of O’Neill’s.]
# Posted on September 20th 2009 by fidkid
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund
"call it"
# Posted on September 20th 2009 by fidkid
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund
some junkie probably pinched the fiddle sold it to a second hand shop nearby where its sitting for sale probably for about forty quid so old tommy can have a wander round buy his old strad copy and have enough lefy off his hundred quid to get a good set of strings a mars bar and a packet of cheese and onion crisps.and then start scraping away again ,never rated him much as a fiddler compared to the likes of coleman, jean carignan NOW he was a fiddler in amillion.
# Posted on September 20th 2009 by myparasgon
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund
Sad reflection, but no surprise, on human nature, especially with anonymity on this thread. I don’t know Tommy Peoples, but his music and reputation, as far as I am aware, is of the highest order. Whistleblower you seem to have an expert opinion that TP is not that great a fiddle payer – I cannot believe that so many who enjoy his music can be wrong! Let’s hear you then...
# Posted on September 20th 2009 by Feargal French
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund?????????????????
The sad reflection here is that so many people think that he's better playing than the many many good TRADITIONAL players, whose music belongs to a genuine regional style. (And placing his playing alongside the masters of traditional fiddling is simply ludicrous.)
"I cannot believe that so many who enjoy his music can be wrong! Let’s hear you then..."
By that primitive rationale The Spice Girls are better than any fiddler, because many more people seem to like them. Are they wrong? Sure they are.
And if you ever do hear me you will notice that I play in tune, in a Donegal style that has a strong rhythm, and that I didn’t invent myself and try to pass it off as traditional.
# Posted on September 21st 2009 by klhsadhfahslkdfhsalk
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund
Conformity leads to mediocrity.
# Posted on September 21st 2009 by Lint - upon - Tweed
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund
ooka oooka him don't belong to regional style...
# Posted on September 21st 2009 by fedorastain
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund
Him not need coconut or pineapple
# Posted on September 21st 2009 by fedorastain
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund
According to Tom Carmody, who was James Morrison's accordion player, Michael Coleman left his fiddle on the seat when he got off of the subway after a gig in New Jersey. Never saw it again.
Whistleblower seems to have a chip on his shoulder. Something personal, I wonder?
# Posted on September 21st 2009 by Jumper
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund
I was just wondering what whistleblower thinks of, oh, Frankie Gavin.... or Sean McGuire. (Incoming!!!! Hit the dirt!)
# Posted on September 21st 2009 by John Galt
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund
By whistleblower's rationale, there are no traditional players that anyone outside of a locality would have ever heard of. Most of the well-known players I can name have their own distinct musical personalities, from Tommy Potts (the most obvious example) to Kevin Burke, Martin Hayes, Matt Molloy, Liz Carroll, Caoimhin O'Raghallaigh, Paddy Keenan...basically anyone who's not dead fits into that category.
Whatever. It's a shame we don't have recordings of players before Coleman, because I'm sure Coleman was an innovator in his day as well, and that there were plenty of people who said he was ruining the tradition. Foxtrots! Horrors!
# Posted on September 21st 2009 by kennedy
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund?????????????
Wrong Again!
"Kevin Burke, Martin Hayes, Matt Molloy, Liz Carroll, Caoimhín Ó Raghallaigh, Paddy Keenan..." are all fantastic players.
You can be innovative and still be good, still be true to the tradition. Neillie Boyle and John Doherty were both innovators. But they came from a position where they were in full possession of the musical tradition, and could innovate from within the tradition. That’s quite different from making it up as you go along.
Coleman was often blamed for introducing standardization, because of his popularity. But you can’t blame him for the effects his popularity has had.
[As for Seán McGuire, he was an amateur classical violinist who thought Irish music was easy (and also thought playing in tune was something to be avoided). And Frankie Gavin seems to think that US bowing and badly played Bach makes him a master fiddler; Less squeaking, more music! He hasn’t realised that there’s more to music than making money.] Come to think of it, when did you last see Tommy Peoples smiling while playing? It might explain why his music comes off a bit dour!
And Foxtrots, like Barndances and the rest of the circa 1900 dance crazes that many people (mostly Donegal in my experience) are pushing as “real” traditional music these days, are just tunes people play. Why not play tunes from all over? A fiddler I know compared it to preserving tunes from The Beatles as traditional because Davy Spillane has recorded Beatles tunes. I love Davy Spillane’s playing, and his innovations (some at least). By all means play The Beatles, but we don’t pretend it’s traditional Irish music; likewise for popular Austrian dances from the 1900s!
# Posted on September 21st 2009 by klhsadhfahslkdfhsalk
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund
haha, hilarious thread this.
First of all, just in response to 'kennedy' , there are actually recordings made before Coleman, done in the mid to late 1800s, for instance Edward Cronin, McFadden and Early, and of course Patsy Tuohey. Theyre great music if ye can get your hands on them, but the quality might put some people off, but they show that the way Coleman played was more common throughout Irish music history than some might think.
oh and sorry, but in my opinion kevin burke and mister o'raghallaigh should really not be in your list of great players there, extremely overrated. Maybe liz carroll aswell but only because of her more recent stuff, some of her first recordings are good, but shes a totally different player now.
Again 'whistleblower', id think twice before saying that Coleman was an instigator for 'standardisation'. just going back to the earlier recordings example there from the 1800s. virtuoso playing was, contrary to what many believe, always prevalent in the music. I think we can forget about this idealistic type of view of scratchy music at the crossroads. And anyway im sure you'll agree that standardisation was introduced with the advent of competition and Comhaltas Ceoltoiri Eireann, who seem to think that regional styles can be condensed into around 12 or so tunes with its so called 'Irish muisc 'exams'.
I think you're missing the point a bit about peoples' playing. I agree somewhat with you. I do notice that he, unlike any other fiddle player, has a incredibly loyal following who believe that everything he has ever done and continues to do to this day is brilliant. (Personally I like his playing but this is based on old recordings, not the way he has been playing in the last couple of years because lets face it he is getting old and has lost some of his touch but you cant take his previous good work away from him.) Sure plenty of my favourite fiddle players have done some absolute crap stuff, and I'll be the first to say it.
But back to the point, you pontificate whistleblower about this curse of standardisation, and yet you contradict yourself by complaining that Peoples is not 'true donegal fiddle playing'. or irish traditional playing for that matter.
But i agree with the statement he is not a donegal style. He created his own unique style, much in the way Sean Keane has.
You say that he is not as good as the many TRADITIONAL (in capital letters naturally) players that are around. But what do you class as traditional? Surely you are not saying that there is a standard set of characteristics that define it when you also curse the introduction of this standardisation? You also say you love Davy Spillane, another contradiction...good technically he may be but he is surely at the other end of the spectrum as regards traditional. Compared to Tommy Peoples anyway.
And Frankie Gavin and US style bowing? maybe nowadays but his older stuff is great.
"Come to think of it, when did you last see Tommy Peoples smiling while playing? It might explain why his music comes off a bit dour!"
Complaining about smiling when playing? Haha, this is another silly Comhaltas thing, smiling when playing. Do you honestly believe in this statement? And im sorry but Peoples music certainly isnt dour, Im beginning to think that you actually havent listened to recordings like 'The Iron Man', 'High Part of the Road' or the recordings with Alec Finn on 'Waiting for a Call'. I wouldnt call these dour at all.
"Neillie Boyle and John Doherty were both innovators. But they came from a position where they were in full possession of the musical tradition, and could innovate from within the tradition. That’s quite different from making it up as you go along."
Hmm, and how are you so sure about Peoples' musical background and upbringing? Its a bit of an exaggeration at best to say hes making it up as he goes along. This talk of playing out of tune and stuff, he does play some notes out of tune, but its wrong to write him off because of this. There are plenty of great fiddle players who play out of tune sometimes, ever heard Brian Rooney, Martin Byrnes,and yes, even Coleman played out of tune sometimes. But people still regard them as great players.
"questionable grasp of intonation and rhythm."
Wrong again. Im sure someone who holds himself (or herself) so highly would know that intonation and rhythm in styles of Irish music changes. The emphasis is different from Donegal and say Clare, or Sliabh Luachra and Sligo.
You're missin the whole definition of traditional music. The idea of what is traditional is relative, its changed over time. If we wanted to we could all nitpick and say, well the fiddle isnt traditional because its not Irish, or we could even say that Donegal fiddle playing isnt traditional at all because a lot of the tunes are scottish and its different from other types of Irish fiddle playing. But whats the point? Because at the end of the day this type of thing has been accpeted to the tradition as have other things over the years.
As regards the fiddle fund, of course there are other more worthwhile charities but if someone wants to set this up or contribute to it and part with their own cash then let them! you dont have to give money, so dont! Free country! and you might think that peoples has 'pots of cash to hand out already', im sure he has other fiddles but, loads of money? this couldnt be further from the truth, and thats from a good authority . How much do you think an Irish musician makes?
# Posted on September 21st 2009 by fiddleruairi
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund
Fiddle (and other instrument) theft seems to be the fashion. Have a look over on the C&F site - some heart-rending stories there:
http://forums.chiffandfipple.com/viewforum.php?f=22
# Posted on September 21st 2009 by ethical blend
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund
Interesting.
I notice no response forthcoming, Fiddleruiari,
from whistleblower.
I wonder why not.
# Posted on September 21st 2009 by Piece
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund???
Well, if you insist… (I was going to let it go, but whatever!)
I have listened to 'The Iron Man' among other CDs of his, and I stand by my judgement of his playing.
“I’d think twice before saying that Coleman was an instigator for 'standardisation'.”
I never said or even implied that he was. I said he can’t be blamed for being popular. His popularity led to people copying him, and then, quite right due to Comhaltas, to standardization. (Matt Molloy’s remarkable and distinctive flute-playing has likewise led to thousands of traditional flautists emulating him, which leads to some standardization, and loss of regional styles in playing. Again, not his fault!) I agree that the dire Comhaltas has enforced a standardization by its competition culture and its bizarre attitude to promotion of Irish music as an international commodity, any actual tradition be damned! (“A stereotyped revivalism”, Séamus Tansey called it!)
I don’t disagree that “virtuoso playing” has always been a feature of the tradition since the old harpers, pipers and fiddlers. An Piobaire Mór, Tarlach Mac Suibhne, is an example from Donegal in the 19th Century. And Donegal had a plentiful supply of incredibly skilled fiddlers in the early 20th century (though, for some reason, the recent rewriting of that history tries to downplay this truth, so John Doherty can be emerge as virtually the only worthwhile player.)
And as for “scratchy music”, what I’m complaining about is this being mistaken for the best fiddling around.
“But I agree with the statement he is not a Donegal style. He created his own unique style, much in the way Seán Keane has.”
Fine then! Where we disagree is that some of us don’t think he’s very good, and that lauding him as a master of the ‘tradition’ is a mistake. One problem with his popularity is that he has influenced people who now play in HIS style, thinking it’s a traditional style from Donegal. Some people from the Rosses are abandoning the local style in favour of his, because they are being told that their style is not Donegal style, whereas his is! (I’m sure this will not be disputed.) And people all over copy his kind of ‘Irish triplets/ trebles’ (or whatever people are calling them these days – lots of Donegal fiddlers call them ‘birls’, as in Scotland), which are played by him without pitch, not remotely like they were played anywhere in Donegal (listen to any of the early players, the birls are clean and definitely pitched.) And on “intonation and rhythm” I still stand by what I said. He’s not a master, he’s an average session fiddle player. This has all been said before: http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/20477
The point about smiling was not really a musical point. I prefer a grim dour gaze to an artificial Tony Blair smile any day. It’s just that he never looks like he’s enjoying himself, and I think it shows in the music lacking rhythm and lift. (Nothing really hangs on this being accepted, just my opinion. It appears you disagree.)
I know tradition involves innovation. The concert flute was not much played in Donegal. The late Frankie Kennedy’s playing adopted some of the Donegal fiddle style in a new departure for flute in Irish music (combined with the less pointed Fermanagh tradition), and adds to the tradition in a good way. Simply fantastic music. Some fine Donegal flute players (some coming I think from the fife band tradition that was popular there) have an even sharper attack, even closer to the staccato bowing, and certainly a fresh departure for concert flute. But an understanding of the tradition is necessary before innovation can result in something really good. Perhaps, as with Coleman, I should direct my concern to those emulating Tommy Peoples rather than himself, but I stand by my judgment. And in my opinion the elevation of many of the players popular in the folk revival of the 1970s to the status of masters of the musical tradition is overall detrimental to its survival.
# Posted on September 21st 2009 by klhsadhfahslkdfhsalk
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund
good response, i like a bit of civil discussion now and then whistleblower! lol
# Posted on September 22nd 2009 by fiddleruairi
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund
Well spoken, Whistleblower - no dodging from you, which I DO respect.
In retrospect, rather rude of me to snipe at you that way, especially from the sidelines.
My apologies.
Agreed to disagree,
# Posted on September 22nd 2009 by Piece
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund
Wow, you all are COLD. Hope your snotty instruments disintegrate in your hands(if you can even play a note). Who are you to judge?
# Posted on September 22nd 2009 by primrose lass
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund
My original objection was to the "far, far better fiddlers" comment. No one has to like any particular musician---everyone has their own preferences---but we're talking about Tommy Peoples here, who has been a well-known, well-regarded Irish fiddler for most of his life, and has done more for Irish traditional music than any one of us will ever do. The recordings and performances are only part of his contributions---he also teaches, and he's written some lovely tunes that have been welcomed into the tradition. Everyone I know who's met him says he's a very nice man as well. He deserves our respect, and not to be dismissed as just any old pub session player, which he most certainly is not.
# Posted on September 22nd 2009 by kennedy
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund
Off topic, but I can't resist.
Takes all kinds, to make a world. As the great philosopher and bon vivant Kinky Friedman once wrote (expletive undeleted of course), "Long ago he and I had come to the conclusion that the only people in life truly worth knowing were the a**holes. They're usually smarter and more consistent, and you never waste any time wondering if they're just trying to be nice."
Besides, it can fun to wind 'em up.
So... how about that Eileen Ivers? Aidan Burke? Ashley MacIsaac? (tee hee)
# Posted on September 22nd 2009 by John Galt
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund
Kinky Friedman---there's a good example. This discussion is the same as someone like Kinky Friedman putting down Willie Nelson for not singing in tune or with the right rhythm. Kinky is pals with Willie, so he must think that's fine. And then there are all the Willie Nelson acolytes who think they need to sing just like Willie Nelson. It's scandalous! And just look what's happened to country music. It's all Willie Nelson's fault.
# Posted on September 22nd 2009 by kennedy
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund
I'm curious - and I'm sure I'm not the only one - who are all of these fiddlers who are "far,far better" than Tommy Peoples ?
# Posted on September 22nd 2009 by Kenny
Re: Tommy Peoples Fiddle Fund
"far far better" fiddlers than Mr Peoples? Yes, I would like some names too, always game to hear a good player. Having heard him play the day after his fiddle was stolen, I am astounded to learn that I was listening to an "average session player". Might as well give up now, then, if Mr P is "average". Jings, what does that make the most of the rest of us ...
Also I didn't know, until I read this thread, that Kevin Burke isn't up to snuff either. Is there an element of "begrudgery" in some opinions? James Joyce, when parcelling out the Seven Deadly Sins among the nations of Europe awarded envy to Ireland. Occasionally I have found it among non-Irish converts to ITM as well.
# Posted on September 23rd 2009 by Jim Younger