i was recently playing in a session,
between tunes we were talking among ourselves;
i said something slightly ***- ist. (what was said was pretty innocuous, but lets assume very mild offence could be taken from it.)
at which point some punter halfway down the (big) pub came over and had a go at me for what id said.
im being deliberately vague because what was actually said is irrelevant, and if i give details, it will just skew the discussion.
in a session the players to some extent become the focal point of the pub;
punters go to listen to the music,
but some dont stop listening in between tunes;
should we feel that everything we do is under scrutiny?
if so the whole thing becomes a bit of a performance.
or can we assume that the players chat is as private as any chat happening elsewhere in the pub?
if i walked across a pub and had a go at a total stranger for something he'd said, i would expect to get punched in the teeth.
It is a public performance, there is little point in deluding yourself or others that it is not. You are performing/playing music in public. Stage or no stage, pay or no pay, you are in a public place playing music. If you dont wish to be watched or listened to then play in private.
Fair point Dave...maybe if i'd known that someone i didnt know halfway down the pub was hanging on my every word during a break, i would have kept my trap shut.
Ionannas,
i agree with what you say, except that i'm talking about the bits between the music; where you just have a bunch of people sitting in a pub, who just happen to have bits of wood etc in their hands.
this is no more public performance than anyone else in the pub.
could a session be defined thus?
"a session is where you go to a pub and get to watch and listen to a group of strangers talking and laughing, you get to scrutinize their conversation without having to think of anything to say anything yourself, and when theyve run out of banter they might play a tune or two"
i dont think so,
but if the non music part of a session is as much a public display as the music, then the above definition is valid.
and a bit weird.
it is inevitable that your conversation may be overheard, but we overhear snippets of conversation in all areas of life; just cause you hear what someone says doesnt make it your business.
there are certain songs i wouldnt sing at a session (at least without changing a line or 2) for fear of offending.
eg "rare old times" has a line "........with skin as black as coal"
this may or may not be offensive, but i wouldnt sing it in public in case it upset someone.
Dear O Dear, your post reminded me of an incident that happened to me about six years ago. I too was entertaining in a local pub, and in between tunes the talk started about drugs. I happen to mention that a friend of my son with whom he shared a room at college, was smoking hash and my son was worried about him. The next day the son along with his parents arrived on my doorstep. I invited them in as they were family friends, and completely out of the blue they accused me of calling their innocent son a druggy in the pub and tore me to shreds. Of course the son denied that he ever touched the stuff, and so ended a beautiful friendship between them and us, and between him and my son. Never did find out who overheard me, but whoever it was did a lot of damage.
I feel you are being rather defensive here Mr Saunders. If you know what you said was
"***-ist" then you know you shouldn't being saying it. And that goes for anything "anti***ist" as well.
Glossing over what you sactually said, whether you considered it innocuous or not, leaves us all guessing at what the missing letters are! I can't think of any letters that fit that would not be a taboo of some sort.
And when you're in a pub, you're in a pub': Holding an banjo or wotteffah makes no difference.
I suppose you could have dissed Man U, the Tory party or BLooZ music (or sumfink) but that sort of comment doesn't fit into a "-ist" category. The more I think about it, the mere fact you admitted it was "-ist" implies you badly and unforgivably put your foot in your mouth!
O this should be a good ’un. A performance/non-performance debate with a frisson of racism.
I don’t agree that a session is a performance at all. My favorite session often takes place in a nearly empty pub. We play only for ourselves. I’m happy if our music pleases the lads at the bar, that’s just super, but really my enjoyment is in playing the music with friends. But one must understand that not everyone agrees, that some people do think of it and treat it as a performance – especially a punter who very possibly is not aware of the true nature of a session.
A separate issue, I think, is overhearing a racist remark, whether it’s from a person in a session, in a performance, or just some folks at the next table. It does depend on what you said and how you said it. Apparently loud enough for it to be heard across a crowded pub.
I could see how a punter might think you were possibly being paid for a performance, and therefore vaguely responsible for the ambience. Which presumably wouldn’t include racism.
The thing is, if you play loudly in a pub, you are effectively inviting the others there into your circle. If you dont want others to listen to you then either shut up or play/speak quietly! You cant dictate to others when they 'should' listen , or when they should stop. You invited others into your circle by playing music in a public space, just as if you are sitting round a table conversing loudly amongst yourselves, you are dominating the space around you and cant then complain if other hear you.
Now whether the guy should be acting on what he heard is a separate issue but still, nonetheless that is the reality of the world we live in. If you are in Thailand or Morocco and loudly insult the King, then you will have to deal with the consequences.
To be honest you are lucky he just verbally assaulted you IMO, were he in the mood for trouble then all he would need was the excuse. The rights and wrongs of his action are a separate issue as to the rights and wrongs of your actions.
here we go i'll quote myself,
"im being deliberately vague because what was actually said is irrelevant, and if i give details, it will just skew the discussion."
if it helps move this along, you can assume im still removing toenails from my teeth.
the issue is whether what we do outside the music is public property; moreso than anything a punter might do in the same pub.
free reed,
blimey, thats a bad story indeed, it makes me wince
If you are in a public space and you speak loudly enough to be overheard then yes what you are doing is 'public property'.If you dont wish to offend whoever so overhears then moderate your volume or your words.
Regarding music, yes of course it is, you are playing loudly in a public space, dominating to some extent the entire public space you are in. Its that simple. Whether you are just being naturally boisterous, or 'performing' or 'showing off' is Irrelevant to the effect you have on that aforementioned public space.
Also, people in a pub are *more* likely to be listening to the conversation of the musicians because they've already been "focusing their ears on them" so to speak.
Unless you like insulting people and getting in fights, I think it's generally a good idea to watch what you're saying whenever you're in public.
Having "free speech" only means that the government can't lock you up for what you say. It doesn't mean that no one can be offended by what you say....
What did you say? The discussion may also be skewed if we have to assume too much. Here I'll have a guess. . . a little cut & paste . . . & we have, "i said something sexist (what was said was innocuous.)" Am I getting warm?
As a teacher I realize that there are times when students focus on my words more than those words deserve and so I need to watch out. Especially outside of class. Or as my sainted mother would have said, "If you wouldn't say it to the priest, you shouldn't say it."
id like to say it was Cubist
but thats a fib
------
is there a difference between
being loud enough to be overheard
and
being loud enough to be eavesdropped upon?
if a punter always has one ear cocked t'ward the players, waiting for the next tune, he will probably hear more banter from the players than from the rest of the room.
The punter should be aware of his own abnormal position, that he is being overly attentive and sort of eavesdropping, and so shouldnt assume that the players chat is anything but a private conversation.
ive been to more sessions as a punter than a player, and this was always my stance before i started playing.
for many players the crack/craic is as important as the music. if it were true that the players chat is part of a public performance and we should take care to watch what we say (moreso than the punters); then surely this destroys said crack.
---------
maybe this guy was cleverer that i thought,
it might have been his way of saying "can you shutup talking and play another bliddy tune?"
Forget the session and tunes - it's a pub fur fux sakes, full of people sucking down alcohol. Anything said, gesticulated or mumbled can be overheard, misconstrued, and turned into fuel for a fire. In fact where I live, legislators have deemed it a "good idea" that folks can bring loaded weapons into these very same places. Makes me think twice about playing a polka I can assure you.
Yhaalhouse - I love how you always manage to sneak in your tremendous dislike for BLooZ music into every post.
Look, people are always fascinated by what musicians have to say.
At our local ITM awards, held in an enormous, crowded amphitheater, I'm embarrassed to admit that I drunkenly stumbled onstage when Talghaore Ni Swift was accepting her "Best Hornpipe Performance" trophy.
I grabbed her mic and before blacking out I'm told I said something like, "Talghaore, I'm really happy for you, and I'm gonna let you finish, but Siabhoncye played one of the best hornpipes of all time."
Most participants of the session may think they are getting together to share some tunes, but I'm not sure all the punters realize that the group of musicians over in the corner are not performing for them. Hence, it may not technically be eavesdropping for them to be listening. Or, it may be so loud that it is hard NOT to listen (kind of like the guy at the next table who likes to yell into his cell phones all night). As others have said, if you are not comfortable having others hear what you are saying, don't say it in public.
This is for those 'not performing'
Is it al-right to put the juke box on then? or to watch sky tv while you lot sit in ther corner 'not performing?' Is it alright for another group of musicians to come in, sit at the other corner and play music, even performing in fact! ? Is it fine for someone to burst into song while your playing a set of tunes? being as how your just sharing tunes amongst yourselves without reference to the other people in the same space? Hmmm .I can just picture the deadly looks they'd get from the musicians 'not performing' in the corner.
Unfortunately, a lot of sessions divide into those who know they are not performing and those who not only make an effort to perform, but also take the condescending view that those who are not performing are actually just performing badly.
It's not rocket science to know which side the best music and the best crack comes from.
Jusa Nutter Eejit, i feel for you, i'm not sure i would play in a bar where punters could carry guns. i would think at least 3 times before doing athenry.
Actually Ionannas,
i think you put your finger on it.
i wouldnt dream of interrupting someone elses enjoyment of pub space-time if they were doing something that was acceptable outside a session.
that includes mobile phone calls, sms texting, swapping ring tones, puking on the floor, falling off stools, laughing heartily at jokes i wasnt told, dropping glasses, playing fruit machines, gorrila impressions, drunks falling into my chair whilst dancing.
all of these things are wholesome pub activities; if they happen during a session, so be it.
punters at sessions do not behave like punters at a performance, nor should they. and nor should the players
i think, Ionannas and others, your test seems to be a pubtastic dB meter; if you make a sound beyond a certain level, then *everything* else you do is performance;
if a punters appreciative yelps and clappinjg are louder than my low d whistle, does that mean i can monitor his/her conversation for the/ rest of the night and then take issue with something i dont like?
NEW Pure Drop: ha! What a jerk move on his part, aye? There's much to be spoken for subtlety and respect in society, particularly in the music industry. Carry on...
I agree with yhaalhouse and others above. Anything said in public can and often does attract a response from strangers. It's the nature of our human social thing. Whether a statement's 'offensive' or not, and how some other joker responds, depends on the states of mind involved and the prevailing social/moral weather. All that blather about being unfairly scrutinized because you're playing, defining a session (again) etc. seems irrelevant to me, as does the sense of outrage and the attempt to find the 'regulations' that 'should' apply. It's just not a legal issue. If the bloke whacks you, then it is.
it isnt a legal issue.
if it were a legal issue the test would be
"did you have a 'reasonable' expectation of privacy?"
of course not.
but if we applied this legal test to most of what we do in life outside our homes, we would probably resort to sitting in the bath, in the dark, with a bag on our heads and a sock in our mouths. life isnt about legal tests.
the question arises because i'm unsure of what the reasonable response is when you are a player in a session as opposed to being just a pub punter. am i repeating myself yet? i hope so.
at the time of the (non) incident,
i wasnt sure how to react - its the only time this has happened to me in a session.
if i'd been in the pub just as a punter,
i would have, in no uncertain terms, told the chap to go and frack his mamalu. and maybe raised a glass to him in one way or another . most definately it was non of his business.
as i was sitting with the other players, there a doubt in my mind over what the correct response was; so i didnt respond.
Not all night no, up until you all stop playing and indicate the social event at which you are all participating is over.
As a group you 'Invite' others to be a part of your group activity, through dominating the Musical space of the room, in which they have little choice bar leaving or complaining to the managemen, or you.
Just as if your circle becomes involved with another group over the course of an evening, the social queues of' OK were off back to our circle please respect our privacy' now are reasonably well ingrained within this society . Issues can occur with different cultural groups not recognising or understanding each others social mores and signals.
If you stand on a table and make a proclamation involving the entire bar, or start playing a bunch of loud musical instruments, you cant really then complain if people notice you! and if people dont notice you....then you can ease your angst by proclaiming it wasn't a performance anyhow.
Ionannas,
i think? i understand your post, and your agenda.
you obviously want to ram home the idea that a session is a stiff collared, ticket only performance, and nothing less.
i disagree, and thats not what this discussion is about.
forgive me, but you froth and vitriol belongs elsewhere.
peace,
FS
? I what! LOL... Jeez i not in the slightest,not at all. Just pointing out some relevant information. Some sessions are as you describe, but the sessions I go to tend to be wild events where there is absolutely no difference between 'audience' and player bar the instruments. Where we are all part of the same 'happening'.
Finbar, this is your first post here, What is this post about then? you specifically brought up public performance in your OP. If you didnt want to discuss it, why mention it?
As it happens your sessions at least sound interesting enough from your description that other people there want to listen. Would you rather they all Ignored you and would rather listen to Madonna on the JB?
A pub session is a musical event in a public place. It is a social happening for musicians and also sometimes for the others in the pub. These are the facts.
When surrounded by drunks, banjo players and football fans it is wishful thinking to expect some sort of decorum and respect for private utterances. Best just to check yourself before you wreck yourself. Always keep a watchful eye out for the loons.
1. The exact details. Was it:
A. "Check out the ___ on that one" to his buddy?
B. "HEY BABY! NICE ____!" across the pub at top volume?
2. STOP PERFORMING FOR NO MONEY! Some of us like to get PAID when we have to be performing monkeys. Not all of us just pass it out for free. Some of us actually HATE performing and LOVE sessions because they are not PERFORMANCES. That way, we get to enjoy the music we love with good friends without having to put on white gloves and green face paint for the typical paid gig in Irish America. “Och laddie, are you ready to hear some OIRISH music?!?!”
If you would like a performance, please contact the band at (XXX)XXX-XXXX and we'll be happy to discuss rates and bookings. The green face paint and white gloves is only available with the purchase of the “premium” package…
eavesdrop
eavesdrop
i was recently playing in a session,
between tunes we were talking among ourselves;
i said something slightly ***- ist. (what was said was pretty innocuous, but lets assume very mild offence could be taken from it.)
at which point some punter halfway down the (big) pub came over and had a go at me for what id said.
im being deliberately vague because what was actually said is irrelevant, and if i give details, it will just skew the discussion.
in a session the players to some extent become the focal point of the pub;
punters go to listen to the music,
but some dont stop listening in between tunes;
should we feel that everything we do is under scrutiny?
if so the whole thing becomes a bit of a performance.
or can we assume that the players chat is as private as any chat happening elsewhere in the pub?
if i walked across a pub and had a go at a total stranger for something he'd said, i would expect to get punched in the teeth.
# Posted on September 14th 2009 by finbar saunders
Re: eavesdrop
It is a public performance, there is little point in deluding yourself or others that it is not. You are performing/playing music in public. Stage or no stage, pay or no pay, you are in a public place playing music. If you dont wish to be watched or listened to then play in private.
# Posted on September 14th 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: eavesdrop
"the players chat is as private as any chat happening elsewhere in the pub"
It should be.
"if i walked across a pub and had a go at a total stranger for something he'd said, i would expect to get punched in the teeth."
That dude should have. None of his business, butting into other peoples' conversations.
# Posted on September 14th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: eavesdrop
If I had something to say which might cause offence, I would not say it so loud that someone halfway down a big pub would hear it.
# Posted on September 14th 2009 by DaveL35
Re: eavesdrop
Fair point Dave...maybe if i'd known that someone i didnt know halfway down the pub was hanging on my every word during a break, i would have kept my trap shut.
Ionannas,
i agree with what you say, except that i'm talking about the bits between the music; where you just have a bunch of people sitting in a pub, who just happen to have bits of wood etc in their hands.
this is no more public performance than anyone else in the pub.
could a session be defined thus?
"a session is where you go to a pub and get to watch and listen to a group of strangers talking and laughing, you get to scrutinize their conversation without having to think of anything to say anything yourself, and when theyve run out of banter they might play a tune or two"
i dont think so,
but if the non music part of a session is as much a public display as the music, then the above definition is valid.
and a bit weird.
it is inevitable that your conversation may be overheard, but we overhear snippets of conversation in all areas of life; just cause you hear what someone says doesnt make it your business.
there are certain songs i wouldnt sing at a session (at least without changing a line or 2) for fear of offending.
eg "rare old times" has a line "........with skin as black as coal"
this may or may not be offensive, but i wouldnt sing it in public in case it upset someone.
# Posted on September 14th 2009 by finbar saunders
Re: eavesdrop
> should we feel that everything we do is under scrutiny?
Yes. And it just may be that making ***-ist comments is in bad form whether you're holding a musical instrument at the time or not.
# Posted on September 14th 2009 by sbhikes
Re: eavesdrop
Dear O Dear, your post reminded me of an incident that happened to me about six years ago. I too was entertaining in a local pub, and in between tunes the talk started about drugs. I happen to mention that a friend of my son with whom he shared a room at college, was smoking hash and my son was worried about him. The next day the son along with his parents arrived on my doorstep. I invited them in as they were family friends, and completely out of the blue they accused me of calling their innocent son a druggy in the pub and tore me to shreds. Of course the son denied that he ever touched the stuff, and so ended a beautiful friendship between them and us, and between him and my son. Never did find out who overheard me, but whoever it was did a lot of damage.
# Posted on September 14th 2009 by Free Reed
Re: eavesdrop
I feel you are being rather defensive here Mr Saunders. If you know what you said was
"***-ist" then you know you shouldn't being saying it. And that goes for anything "anti***ist" as well.
Glossing over what you sactually said, whether you considered it innocuous or not, leaves us all guessing at what the missing letters are! I can't think of any letters that fit that would not be a taboo of some sort.
And when you're in a pub, you're in a pub': Holding an banjo or wotteffah makes no difference.
I suppose you could have dissed Man U, the Tory party or BLooZ music (or sumfink) but that sort of comment doesn't fit into a "-ist" category. The more I think about it, the mere fact you admitted it was "-ist" implies you badly and unforgivably put your foot in your mouth!
# Posted on September 14th 2009 by yhaalhouse
Re: eavesdrop
O this should be a good ’un. A performance/non-performance debate with a frisson of racism.
I don’t agree that a session is a performance at all. My favorite session often takes place in a nearly empty pub. We play only for ourselves. I’m happy if our music pleases the lads at the bar, that’s just super, but really my enjoyment is in playing the music with friends. But one must understand that not everyone agrees, that some people do think of it and treat it as a performance – especially a punter who very possibly is not aware of the true nature of a session.
A separate issue, I think, is overhearing a racist remark, whether it’s from a person in a session, in a performance, or just some folks at the next table. It does depend on what you said and how you said it. Apparently loud enough for it to be heard across a crowded pub.
I could see how a punter might think you were possibly being paid for a performance, and therefore vaguely responsible for the ambience. Which presumably wouldn’t include racism.
# Posted on September 14th 2009 by fidkid
Re: eavesdrop
The thing is, if you play loudly in a pub, you are effectively inviting the others there into your circle. If you dont want others to listen to you then either shut up or play/speak quietly! You cant dictate to others when they 'should' listen , or when they should stop. You invited others into your circle by playing music in a public space, just as if you are sitting round a table conversing loudly amongst yourselves, you are dominating the space around you and cant then complain if other hear you.
Now whether the guy should be acting on what he heard is a separate issue but still, nonetheless that is the reality of the world we live in. If you are in Thailand or Morocco and loudly insult the King, then you will have to deal with the consequences.
To be honest you are lucky he just verbally assaulted you IMO, were he in the mood for trouble then all he would need was the excuse. The rights and wrongs of his action are a separate issue as to the rights and wrongs of your actions.
# Posted on September 14th 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: eavesdrop
Assuming that what you said was something other than nonconformist, classicist, fetishist, futurist, pacifist, romanticist or violinist.
# Posted on September 14th 2009 by fidkid
Re: eavesdrop
yhaalhouse
here we go i'll quote myself,
"im being deliberately vague because what was actually said is irrelevant, and if i give details, it will just skew the discussion."
if it helps move this along, you can assume im still removing toenails from my teeth.
the issue is whether what we do outside the music is public property; moreso than anything a punter might do in the same pub.
free reed,
blimey, thats a bad story indeed, it makes me wince
# Posted on September 14th 2009 by finbar saunders
Re: eavesdrop
If you are in a public space and you speak loudly enough to be overheard then yes what you are doing is 'public property'.If you dont wish to offend whoever so overhears then moderate your volume or your words.
Regarding music, yes of course it is, you are playing loudly in a public space, dominating to some extent the entire public space you are in. Its that simple. Whether you are just being naturally boisterous, or 'performing' or 'showing off' is Irrelevant to the effect you have on that aforementioned public space.
# Posted on September 14th 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: eavesdrop
Also, people in a pub are *more* likely to be listening to the conversation of the musicians because they've already been "focusing their ears on them" so to speak.
Unless you like insulting people and getting in fights, I think it's generally a good idea to watch what you're saying whenever you're in public.
Having "free speech" only means that the government can't lock you up for what you say. It doesn't mean that no one can be offended by what you say....
# Posted on September 14th 2009 by KeepFiddlin'
Re: eavesdrop
What did you say? The discussion may also be skewed if we have to assume too much. Here I'll have a guess. . . a little cut & paste . . . & we have, "i said something sexist (what was said was innocuous.)" Am I getting warm?
# Posted on September 14th 2009 by Random_notes
Re: eavesdrop
As a teacher I realize that there are times when students focus on my words more than those words deserve and so I need to watch out. Especially outside of class. Or as my sainted mother would have said, "If you wouldn't say it to the priest, you shouldn't say it."
# Posted on September 14th 2009 by nfldbox
Re: eavesdrop
id like to say it was Cubist
but thats a fib
------
is there a difference between
being loud enough to be overheard
and
being loud enough to be eavesdropped upon?
if a punter always has one ear cocked t'ward the players, waiting for the next tune, he will probably hear more banter from the players than from the rest of the room.
The punter should be aware of his own abnormal position, that he is being overly attentive and sort of eavesdropping, and so shouldnt assume that the players chat is anything but a private conversation.
ive been to more sessions as a punter than a player, and this was always my stance before i started playing.
for many players the crack/craic is as important as the music. if it were true that the players chat is part of a public performance and we should take care to watch what we say (moreso than the punters); then surely this destroys said crack.
---------
maybe this guy was cleverer that i thought,
it might have been his way of saying "can you shutup talking and play another bliddy tune?"
# Posted on September 14th 2009 by finbar saunders
Re: eavesdrop
Good thing you didn't bust his chops because of something he said. & vice versa.
# Posted on September 14th 2009 by Random_notes
Re: eavesdrop
Forget the session and tunes - it's a pub fur fux sakes, full of people sucking down alcohol. Anything said, gesticulated or mumbled can be overheard, misconstrued, and turned into fuel for a fire. In fact where I live, legislators have deemed it a "good idea" that folks can bring loaded weapons into these very same places. Makes me think twice about playing a polka I can assure you.
Yhaalhouse - I love how you always manage to sneak in your tremendous dislike for BLooZ music into every post.
# Posted on September 14th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: eavesdrop
Look, people are always fascinated by what musicians have to say.
At our local ITM awards, held in an enormous, crowded amphitheater, I'm embarrassed to admit that I drunkenly stumbled onstage when Talghaore Ni Swift was accepting her "Best Hornpipe Performance" trophy.
I grabbed her mic and before blacking out I'm told I said something like, "Talghaore, I'm really happy for you, and I'm gonna let you finish, but Siabhoncye played one of the best hornpipes of all time."
# Posted on September 14th 2009 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: eavesdrop
Most participants of the session may think they are getting together to share some tunes, but I'm not sure all the punters realize that the group of musicians over in the corner are not performing for them. Hence, it may not technically be eavesdropping for them to be listening. Or, it may be so loud that it is hard NOT to listen (kind of like the guy at the next table who likes to yell into his cell phones all night). As others have said, if you are not comfortable having others hear what you are saying, don't say it in public.
# Posted on September 14th 2009 by Jiml
Re: eavesdrop
This is for those 'not performing'
Is it al-right to put the juke box on then? or to watch sky tv while you lot sit in ther corner 'not performing?' Is it alright for another group of musicians to come in, sit at the other corner and play music, even performing in fact! ? Is it fine for someone to burst into song while your playing a set of tunes? being as how your just sharing tunes amongst yourselves without reference to the other people in the same space? Hmmm .I can just picture the deadly looks they'd get from the musicians 'not performing' in the corner.
# Posted on September 14th 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: eavesdrop
nearly everything in your "not performing" post happens regularly.
juke box gets switched on? yes
people watch tv? yes
musicians coming in generally join in with the ones already there...but thats musicians for you.
people burst into song without reference to the session players? yes
and when such things happen, i smile and let it pass, whilst cursing under my breath in a ***-ist manner.
# Posted on September 14th 2009 by finbar saunders
Re: eavesdrop
Unfortunately, a lot of sessions divide into those who know they are not performing and those who not only make an effort to perform, but also take the condescending view that those who are not performing are actually just performing badly.
It's not rocket science to know which side the best music and the best crack comes from.
# Posted on September 15th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: eavesdrop
# Posted on September 15th 2009 by finbar saunders
Re: eavesdrop
Llig, splendid.
Jusa Nutter Eejit, i feel for you, i'm not sure i would play in a bar where punters could carry guns. i would think at least 3 times before doing athenry.
Actually Ionannas,
i think you put your finger on it.
i wouldnt dream of interrupting someone elses enjoyment of pub space-time if they were doing something that was acceptable outside a session.
that includes mobile phone calls, sms texting, swapping ring tones, puking on the floor, falling off stools, laughing heartily at jokes i wasnt told, dropping glasses, playing fruit machines, gorrila impressions, drunks falling into my chair whilst dancing.
all of these things are wholesome pub activities; if they happen during a session, so be it.
punters at sessions do not behave like punters at a performance, nor should they. and nor should the players
i think, Ionannas and others, your test seems to be a pubtastic dB meter; if you make a sound beyond a certain level, then *everything* else you do is performance;
if a punters appreciative yelps and clappinjg are louder than my low d whistle, does that mean i can monitor his/her conversation for the/ rest of the night and then take issue with something i dont like?
dont think so.
# Posted on September 15th 2009 by finbar saunders
Re: eavesdrop
NEW Pure Drop: ha! What a jerk move on his part, aye? There's much to be spoken for subtlety and respect in society, particularly in the music industry. Carry on...
# Posted on September 15th 2009 by mellow yellow
Re: eavesdrop
I agree with yhaalhouse and others above. Anything said in public can and often does attract a response from strangers. It's the nature of our human social thing. Whether a statement's 'offensive' or not, and how some other joker responds, depends on the states of mind involved and the prevailing social/moral weather. All that blather about being unfairly scrutinized because you're playing, defining a session (again) etc. seems irrelevant to me, as does the sense of outrage and the attempt to find the 'regulations' that 'should' apply. It's just not a legal issue. If the bloke whacks you, then it is.
# Posted on September 15th 2009 by Martin_BC
Re: eavesdrop
it isnt a legal issue.
if it were a legal issue the test would be
"did you have a 'reasonable' expectation of privacy?"
of course not.
but if we applied this legal test to most of what we do in life outside our homes, we would probably resort to sitting in the bath, in the dark, with a bag on our heads and a sock in our mouths. life isnt about legal tests.
the question arises because i'm unsure of what the reasonable response is when you are a player in a session as opposed to being just a pub punter. am i repeating myself yet? i hope so.
at the time of the (non) incident,
i wasnt sure how to react - its the only time this has happened to me in a session.
if i'd been in the pub just as a punter,
. most definately it was non of his business.
i would have, in no uncertain terms, told the chap to go and frack his mamalu. and maybe raised a glass to him in one way or another
as i was sitting with the other players, there a doubt in my mind over what the correct response was; so i didnt respond.
but afterwards, i thought he was out of order.
hence this thread.
# Posted on September 15th 2009 by finbar saunders
Re: eavesdrop
Not all night no, up until you all stop playing and indicate the social event at which you are all participating is over.
As a group you 'Invite' others to be a part of your group activity, through dominating the Musical space of the room, in which they have little choice bar leaving or complaining to the managemen, or you.
Just as if your circle becomes involved with another group over the course of an evening, the social queues of' OK were off back to our circle please respect our privacy' now are reasonably well ingrained within this society . Issues can occur with different cultural groups not recognising or understanding each others social mores and signals.
If you stand on a table and make a proclamation involving the entire bar, or start playing a bunch of loud musical instruments, you cant really then complain if people notice you!
and if people dont notice you....then you can ease your angst by proclaiming it wasn't a performance anyhow.
# Posted on September 15th 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: eavesdrop
Ionannas,
i think? i understand your post, and your agenda.
you obviously want to ram home the idea that a session is a stiff collared, ticket only performance, and nothing less.
i disagree, and thats not what this discussion is about.
forgive me, but you froth and vitriol belongs elsewhere.
peace,
FS
# Posted on September 15th 2009 by finbar saunders
Re: eavesdrop
A session is a "social event"? oh god that's even worse than suggesting it's in some way a "performance".
# Posted on September 15th 2009 by Tirno
Re: eavesdrop
? I what! LOL... Jeez i not in the slightest,not at all. Just pointing out some relevant information. Some sessions are as you describe, but the sessions I go to tend to be wild events where there is absolutely no difference between 'audience' and player bar the instruments. Where we are all part of the same 'happening'.
Finbar, this is your first post here, What is this post about then? you specifically brought up public performance in your OP. If you didnt want to discuss it, why mention it?
As it happens your sessions at least sound interesting enough from your description that other people there want to listen. Would you rather they all Ignored you and would rather listen to Madonna on the JB?
A pub session is a musical event in a public place. It is a social happening for musicians and also sometimes for the others in the pub. These are the facts.
# Posted on September 15th 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: eavesdrop
ad nauseum
# Posted on September 15th 2009 by finbar saunders
Re: eavesdrop
I think it takes sanctimonious nob to interfear in a private conversation because they took offence at something that wasn't for them.
# Posted on September 15th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: eavesdrop
When surrounded by drunks, banjo players and football fans it is wishful thinking to expect some sort of decorum and respect for private utterances. Best just to check yourself before you wreck yourself. Always keep a watchful eye out for the loons.
# Posted on September 15th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: eavesdrop
1. The exact details. Was it:
A. "Check out the ___ on that one" to his buddy?
B. "HEY BABY! NICE ____!" across the pub at top volume?
2. STOP PERFORMING FOR NO MONEY! Some of us like to get PAID when we have to be performing monkeys. Not all of us just pass it out for free. Some of us actually HATE performing and LOVE sessions because they are not PERFORMANCES. That way, we get to enjoy the music we love with good friends without having to put on white gloves and green face paint for the typical paid gig in Irish America. “Och laddie, are you ready to hear some OIRISH music?!?!”
If you would like a performance, please contact the band at (XXX)XXX-XXXX and we'll be happy to discuss rates and bookings. The green face paint and white gloves is only available with the purchase of the “premium” package…
# Posted on September 15th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
. . .
. . .
# Posted on September 15th 2009 by Random_notes
Re: eavesdrop
"Och laddie"... wouldn't that be your "Scotch" stereotype? I thought the applicable "Oirish" expression was "begorrah."
I'm surprised you got approved as a green face paint distributor... aren't there standards?
# Posted on September 15th 2009 by grego
Re: eavesdrop
In the land of profits? Heavens no. We were using some Chinese-made face paint until it got recalled. Strangely, my rash went away after that...
# Posted on September 15th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: eavesdrop
uh oh
here comes a punter to have a go ...
# Posted on September 16th 2009 by dogmageek