How would you characterize the Irish Traditional Tusic establishment, if it exists? What organisations, or which individuals, determined or influenced the past, current and future shape of this "sector", "movement" or whatever?
NPU, CCE and ITMA spring to mind, but are there other , less obvious influences at work? RTE, the session.org etc.
I'm doing some research into ITM and Irish Travellers, and I'm sure you see the connection.
Any thoughts from this cerebral forum would be appreciated.
Big questions there Tommy, and only some immediate, random, and paltry thoughts in response.
A lot of musicians have been, and are going, through Mícheál Ó Súilleabháin's Irish World Academy of Music and Dance. Names that most "The Session" members will have heard of include June Mc Cormack, all of Líadan (I think), Muireann Nic Amhlaoibh, Michelle Mucahy, Martino Vacca. Most of its graduates, including some of the above, go into teaching. Twenty years from now will most flute players have been indirectly influenced by Niall Keegan, much as up until about ten years ago most had something of the Matt Molloy about them? Or will Aoife Granville in UCC win out? IWAMD's Nomad project, directed by Niall I think, is building links between the university and the Traveller community including a distance-learning diploma in music. His reviews in the Journal of Music also carry weight.
My sense is that Muiris O Rócháin and Harry Hughes at Scoil Samhraidh Willie Clancy have a subtle influence on the tradition in terms of who they invite to teach and play. It's the nearest I can think to trad's seal of approval. No bodhrán or guitar classes at Miltown, and banjo only in the last few years.
Having your record out on Cló Iar-Chonnachta is perhaps another seal of approval.
For some, Caoimhín Ó Raghallaigh is becoming this generation's Tommy Potts.
Then there's the availability, or otherwise, of funding through the Arts Council.
If this is along the lines you're after I'll ponder some more and try to post again over the next couple of days.
Tommy Fegan - don't be troubled by the seemingly flippant nature of the replies so far, as they hold the real truth.
What we do is play a few tunes with a few friends. That really really really really is all there is to it.
I was about to start a discussion today on how often we have people asking angst-ridden questions about whether they are good enough to join a session, or how to deal with someone who doesn't play well enough - as though this was some sort of ORGANISATION.
It's not an organisation, or an establishment. No one is in charge.
I repeat:
What we do is play a few tunes with a few friends. That really really really really is all there is to it.
Of course, there will always be some squareheads who feel that it should be ORGANISED in some way, and there should be qualifications and competitions, but they are the ones who spoil what is essentially a very beautiful thing - people spending time together doing something they like.
I dream of the day when people will realise that playing a few tunes with a few friends is an evocation of a time, a place, a person, how they express emotions they have no words for, breathing, and indeed, what they are. There is no way forward for humanity as long as people (possibly without thinking about it) take the selfish view that what they do is more important than people.
Is there an "establishment" or is it more like a pool of common knowledge and experiences which connects people?. Like you talk to a fellow Irish trad player and they recognize, at least, names like Matt Molloy, Tommy Peoples, Kevin Burke, Seamus Ennis, et. al.
Or there is kind of a base knowledge of tunes, the ones most Irish players are likely to know, Why is it that everyone learns the Kesh and Morrison's when starting out? I did and the weird part was that no one ever told me they were "beginner" tune nor did I see a list of "session tunes you should know." I heard the Bothy Band play them and as that was one of the few ITM albums I had at the time, I learned the tunes. It's either a weird collective psychology thing or more likely bands which got really big had a lot of influence on the types of tunes people were learning and playing in sessions. Then it becomes a self-perpetuating thing -- if certain tunes are getting played a lot, people go out and learn those tunes because they are getting played a lot. Nowadays it appears as if Lunasa has that influence. I doubt Siobhan O'Donnell's, Fleur de Mandragore, McLeod's Farewell (aka the Wedding Reel), and those two jigs in G whose names I cannot remember but they have those syncopated bits and everyone, at least in Scotland, is playing them. Can anyone think of another band as influential on people's repertoire?
Lunasa do seem to be very influential these days on getting tunes out there and played. MacLeod's Farewell though I suspect was played a lot, at least in Scotland, prior to Lunasa playing it as the original Capercaillie version (in E major) was around for a long time.
From what I've seen, an inspiring player is enough to shape music on a local level. Enough to get other players to learn "that tune", or to work on developing that style in the kitchen at home. The players around them improve. On the other hand, a session with such a player can become biased to that instrument, or that particular set of tunes. New players will naturally pick up that instrument, and if the other instruments with no such leader tend to languish a bit.
The traveller specific aspect of your research is interesting. You'll get the odd exceptional player that will travel between sessions. Or you might go to a fleadh, festival etc. And that's where you'll meet a new set of players, pick up new inspiration, new tunes etc. I met a great pipes player (who's an Irish Traveller) at my local session, and picked up a few tunes from him. Also, I recently met a load of guys from a session in Nottingham, and learned a couple of sets from them.
Similarly to any other music, the dissemination has to be the big influence in allowing the music to flourish. You owning the same album as me, and learning the same set, means in theory we should be able to play together. Perhaps, pre recordings this was the fundamental contribution of traveller players, it was they who would take tunes around their area, allowing them to spread.
Even now though, with things such as youtube and itunes allowing most of the common music to be on tap, I'm not normally moved to learn a tune until I hear others play it in front of me.
BTW, you're not from Bessbrook/Camlough by any chance?
I recently had a discussion with players from various northern counties of Ireland.
I noted two things - some players felt CCE had become too prescriptive in its organisation. The use of identical tune lists and books in different clubs and different counties was used as evidence of this.
Others felt that CCE were continuing to deliver high quality musicians.
I can understand both arguments. Using identical tune books from one end of the country to the other is a very dangerous thing for a living tradition.
However, the links, organisation, influence and teaching to the young are a real asset of CCE.
One of the forces in determining style and content is perhaps the overseas festival circuit. The likes of Dublin, Ohio, Winnipeg, Vancouver et al have quite determined agendas when it comes to what they have on stage representing "Irish music". Some big festivals have some pretty whacky ideas of the current state of "Irish culture" full stop, youtube is brilliant a revealing this. The likes of Lunasa and the Sharon Shannon Band have been very successful tapping into this market and the younger musicians view this as being successful as well. All of a sudden you have double basses, djembes and hyper strummed guitars in the sessions and in every other ensemble going.
Fascinating range of responses! The Willie Week is a good example, above, of a very direct influence on tunes,styles etc being disseminated to a very focused group well enought committed to travel (very often from abroad) anbd attend for a week's teaching.
The Traveller reference is about Irish Travellers who have had a major influence, but arent recognised for that. the classi example is Johnny Doran whose impact can be discerned in the Bothy Band, the Fureys, Moving Hearts, Planxty etc.Then think of the impact these groups had on this generation. We know society at large ostracised Travellers in the last century, but it would seem that the Irish traditional Muisc fraternity reflected the values and prejudices of the broader community.
And part of my original question is about how, and who, had most influence on this?
Oh and yes, I'm from Camlough, where the Bradleys continue to promote Irish music, language andsport with passion and flair.
I am doing research for a book I plan to publish, perhaps late next year. The working title of the research is;
"Coppers and Brass, the influence of Johnny Doran and other Irish Traveller musicians on Irish Traditional Music".
So , while I'm on, I'd be glad to hear from anyone with info on this subject. In particular, I would like some leads on descendants of Irish Travellers who went to America in the second half of the 19th century, to see if there were any musicians among them.
The ascription of kudos has partly been covered (for instance, the reference to Cló Iar-Chonnachta, though, in the past, one might equally apply that to releasing a record on Claddagh or Gael Linn - perhaps much more so), and I'd like to suggest some related angles.
Two organisations which have not been mentioned are the Arts Councils (north and south of the border) which have funded all manner of traditional music projects over the years. Several albums released in recent times have been partially funded by one or the other.
RTÉ has an enormous impact, not least in the planning of its traditional music schedule (Paddy Glackin and Peter 'uilleann pipes' Browne are both senior members of its staff), which is mirrored in part by TG4 and the BBC in Northern Ireland.
Perhaps now diminishing in strength, at one time any project associated with Dónal Lunny immediately attracted kudos.
It's salutary to look at the membership of the board of ITMA, both past and present - http://www.itma.ie/English/Board.html - for an indication of where the power lies in the promotion of traditional music.
Hello Tommy, great to see that you are still going strong with the music.
To answer "who's had most influence on this?" From a personal point of view, the John Doherty recordings have an influence on my learning the music. Oddly enough that you should mention Johnny Doran, as the person I spoke about in my post above is a man called John Rooney, a son in law to Felix Doran. He's plays like he's on fire, and great bloke.
I don't know if you've been in touch with him about this. There's a recording of him playing here:
I'm probably way out of touch on this one.
The only real influence I can think of, amongst my fellow musicians, would be listening to Planxty. They would be my 1st influence, so I don't think this would be considered establishment. They do, still, influence younger musicians.
Perhaps the establishment would be the musicians from which Planxty learned, & in turn the, ones' they learned from.
Those of us in the outer nimbus of the ITM world are rather like those who practise Buddhism-lite in the West, as opposed to the cradle-Buddhists of the East who live within the huge frowsty apparatus of a collective, ancestral, organised religion where jaw-dropping things are routinely practised under the auspices of a pullulating priesthood.
Maybe this is a bit hard on ancestral Buddhism. But I dare say a lot of Western Buddhists have found it rather different from what they think Buddhism really is, or ought to be.
Anyway: Does the ITM establishment constitute anything like the huge frowsty apparatus of a collective, ancestral, organised religion where jaw-dropping things are routinely practised under the auspices of a pullulating priesthood?..
Strong personality steps in and makes the rules. With the older players dying off, who's to tell that something is a part of someone's imagination , or personal view.
For me ITM's a hobby practised in local sessions whose "establishment" is the cats who started them / play well enough to be on albums / give off a sufficient air of entitlement and taciturn mastery / are too big to silence or eject.
Their credentials in performance are easily assessed. Their claims to cat-hood on the basis of epic adventures and glamorous acquaintances in the Emerald Isle are harder to determine: if one of them starts to describe a party-crawl with De Dannan in such-and-such a year (for example), sure as anything another will say, "Absolute b*ll*cks, I know for a fact they weren't even in the country that year!", and the oral tradition will have shot itself in the foot yet again.
CCÉ, Na Piobairí Uilleann, ITMA, Music Network, An Comhairle Ealaíon, ACNI, Willie Week, Frankie Kennedy Weekend, Armagh Pipers Club, Ceardeas na bFidhilairi, An Goilín etc are probably some of the leading established organisations and agencies who have helped trad artists and brought the tradition to a new and exciting level in recent years.
I think it is the recordings of established musicians and bands in everyones formative years that had an influence on our repetoire and style (apart from our regional accentuated style we grew up playing unbeknownst to us).
I think while the musicians from the travelling community brought the tunes and songs to the towns and cities it was the advent of technology, the demise of the broadsheet and pipers at fairs, the advent of the wireless and new musics that led to their demise as well as the ghettoisation of their stop sites and the stigma the settled community put on travellers because of their traditional lifestyle in a time of escalating change (50's & 60's especially). The Catholic Church didn't exactly step in to defend the God loving travelling community.
By the way I see by the Arts Council website the Deis Scheme has funded scores of trad CDs in the last year from solo, groups to archival and tutorials - FUND THE ARTS!!!! Its all we will have once the shnip comes!!!!
Or when Sir Walter Raleigh brought back the Solanum Tuberosum Linnaeus from his travels. The Black Adder gave one to Lord Melchett who decided to smoke his. To which the Black Adder commented that they'll be eating them next.
Just by way of balance, and certainly not as attack on VocalDivaSteed, over the years I've played in sessions with perhaps twenty or thirty of Niall's student and never heard anything but admiration for his music-making. June McCormack, Muireann Nic Amhlaoibh, and Kieran Munnelly (ex-students of his and flute players all) at least in my hearing, have had nothing but good things to say about the man and his music.
The result is not to everyone's taste but for some it's exciting to hear a musician steeped in trad (taught by Brendan Mulkere, played in St Colmcille's Ceili Band, teaches at CCE's Scoil Éigse) push the boundaries of style (and taste!)..
Just as a matter of interest, not as a criticism, how good friends with these people are you and what was the context of them imparting this wisdom to you PJ?
Could they simply have been being polite or were they genuinely gushing?
LLig may like long words, but unfortunately, if comhaltas practise antidisestablishmentarianism, they are against the establishment being dismantled, not as he suggests, approving of it.
The Sessionatti were a c19 group of anarchist bohemians whose admirers came to include Dali, Duchamp, Breton, Picasso, the Kaiser, Churchill, the Queen Mother, Mao, everyone on the Sergeant Pepper album cover, and a huge following of lesser names who probably did better art.
For all that, their works were scanty and obscure. It is known that they specialised in putting live eels down the backs of ladies in the theatre, and that their leader Lugubrio p*ssartisto played a national anthem backwards on paper and comb in some hole where the penalty for doing this was death, but for the rest they and their followers (including the Queen Mother, and Queen Victoria for that matter) were so gargled on absinthe by the time the world took an interest that absolutely nothing they said could be understood, let alone taken on trust.
Lugubrio p*ssartisto's last resting place has lately been declared by a medium to be under a public toilet in Paris, whose footprints are routinely shrouded by weeping druggies.
In short, the Sessionatti were the epicentre of a ferment of intellectual life that helped to form the modern world and make us what we are today.
some people like niall keegans flute playing. fine, but saying that lots of the student from that course admire his playing is wrong. I know plenty of people who have been on the course, have taught on it and are currently lecturing on it, and all of them say niall keegan is killing the idea of trad music. he basically treats the course as his baby.
i dont like his flute playing, i would describe it as 'vomit flute playing', an uncontrollable splurging of notes.
"vomit flute playing"! Colorful, and I'd agree that at times, apt; he certainly can be self indulgent, but not all the time surely. I've heard him play very sweetly with the likes of John Carty and Conal O'Grada.
It's interesting how divergent your impressions, and those of VocalDivaSteed, are from mine, and I'm not for one minute doubting what you or you sources are saying/writing. I wonder though what is that he's doing that's "killing the idea of trad music" given that so many talented young musicians apply for the BA and MA at UL when they could go to UCC, Waterford IT, etc. Even allowing for hyperbole that's a pretty strong and no doubt heartfelt statement. It'd great if you could expand on that a little bit more.
I guess you know you're getting somewhere in music when you finally have a few people in the world who dislike your playing. He deserves it too - nice, talented guy who seems very devoted to his students....
I have danced to Niall Keegan playing , many years ago when he was playing with Brendan Ring and Ormand Waters .
They played for set dances in London and very good they were too . No Drums no Piano No need for them Some of the most enjoyable dances I ever went too . Just a guitarist whom I am ashamed to know I cannot remember his name to provide accompaniment .
I should have explained better - I didn't mean "dislike your playing" in the way the you might dismiss some numpty - I meant the higher level of critique where someone's obviously good enough to earn serious debate about what they're doing, and their dissenters actually think long enough about it to come with such vivid characterizations as "vomit flute playing" - I think that's cool.
Are Vocaldiva, Fiddlerruari and Dr Gilbert not the same person? It certainly seems that they all arrive and leave here together... coincidence?
For the record I think what little I have heard of Niall's playing is excellent .
ionannas, no, we are not one in the same. you do realise that there could be the slightest chance that some people have similar views and taste in music...and that people may know each other beyond this site.
and i had to laugh at your comment airport, the word you are looking for is a 'martyr' for the music. im afraid niall keegan is not, no matter how much you and im sure he wud love.
and seeing as you asked, 'vomit flute playing' didnt actually take long to come up with. thats the great thing about the human senses. i hear his playing and thats what i think. you said it yourself...its pretty vivid. obviously you think different...which is fine.
Not just similar views, you both arrive here and leave pretty much in tandem, both show a remarkably informed knowledge of trad. This has been going on a while. must be a coincidence. You know each other the?that would explain it I suppose? anyhow none of my business and I couldn't care less anyhow. Just thought it was worth mentioning. Hope yous didn't take offence. Either of You the Dr then? ooops shouldn't ask , belay that question, even if you were you could hardly come out and admit it here now could you?
Sounds like you are trying to have a row with yourself jig/trad piper/Ionannas
I have been advised that you could go blind if you keep doing this to yourself
The comment about pipers going to USA. Did one of the Cash family give rise to Johnny Cash's family. The picture of Piper Cash on the Doran record looks like the Man in Black to me!
ITM Establishment
ITM Establishment
How would you characterize the Irish Traditional Tusic establishment, if it exists? What organisations, or which individuals, determined or influenced the past, current and future shape of this "sector", "movement" or whatever?
NPU, CCE and ITMA spring to mind, but are there other , less obvious influences at work? RTE, the session.org etc.
I'm doing some research into ITM and Irish Travellers, and I'm sure you see the connection.
Any thoughts from this cerebral forum would be appreciated.
# Posted on September 10th 2009 by tommy fegan
Re: ITM Establishment
The music is, by its very nature, disestablished, The likes of Comhaltas practice antidisestablishmentarianism.
(can I have a point for that please)
# Posted on September 10th 2009 by ...
Re: ITM Establishment
But the real question is, who, or what, is behind the Big C?
... don't answer that! ... you'd have to kill yourself first
# Posted on September 10th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: ITM Establishment
That was supercalifragilisticexpialidocious!
# Posted on September 10th 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: ITM Establishment
It's no one other wise world domination and the eradication of shaky eggs world wide would have been achieved years ago.
# Posted on September 10th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: ITM Establishment
There are many ITM establishments ...
... pubs, mostly ...
# Posted on September 10th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: ITM Establishment
Big questions there Tommy, and only some immediate, random, and paltry thoughts in response.
A lot of musicians have been, and are going, through Mícheál Ó Súilleabháin's Irish World Academy of Music and Dance. Names that most "The Session" members will have heard of include June Mc Cormack, all of Líadan (I think), Muireann Nic Amhlaoibh, Michelle Mucahy, Martino Vacca. Most of its graduates, including some of the above, go into teaching. Twenty years from now will most flute players have been indirectly influenced by Niall Keegan, much as up until about ten years ago most had something of the Matt Molloy about them? Or will Aoife Granville in UCC win out? IWAMD's Nomad project, directed by Niall I think, is building links between the university and the Traveller community including a distance-learning diploma in music. His reviews in the Journal of Music also carry weight.
My sense is that Muiris O Rócháin and Harry Hughes at Scoil Samhraidh Willie Clancy have a subtle influence on the tradition in terms of who they invite to teach and play. It's the nearest I can think to trad's seal of approval. No bodhrán or guitar classes at Miltown, and banjo only in the last few years.
Having your record out on Cló Iar-Chonnachta is perhaps another seal of approval.
For some, Caoimhín Ó Raghallaigh is becoming this generation's Tommy Potts.
Then there's the availability, or otherwise, of funding through the Arts Council.
If this is along the lines you're after I'll ponder some more and try to post again over the next couple of days.
# Posted on September 10th 2009 by Sweeney Astray
Re: ITM Establishment
Tommy Fegan - don't be troubled by the seemingly flippant nature of the replies so far, as they hold the real truth.
What we do is play a few tunes with a few friends. That really really really really is all there is to it.
I was about to start a discussion today on how often we have people asking angst-ridden questions about whether they are good enough to join a session, or how to deal with someone who doesn't play well enough - as though this was some sort of ORGANISATION.
It's not an organisation, or an establishment. No one is in charge.
I repeat:
What we do is play a few tunes with a few friends. That really really really really is all there is to it.
Of course, there will always be some squareheads who feel that it should be ORGANISED in some way, and there should be qualifications and competitions, but they are the ones who spoil what is essentially a very beautiful thing - people spending time together doing something they like.
# Posted on September 10th 2009 by showaddydadito
Re: ITM Establishment
For some, it's more than playing a few tunes with a few friends.
For some, it's an evocation of a time, a place, a person.
For some, it's how they express emotions they have no words for.
For some, it's breathing.
# Posted on September 10th 2009 by Sweeney Astray
Re: ITM Establishment
And there are some who feel the same about football.
# Posted on September 10th 2009 by Sweeney Astray
Re: ITM Establishment
For some, its not what they do, its who they are.
# Posted on September 10th 2009 by Jimij
Re: ITM Establishment
I dream of the day when people will realise that playing a few tunes with a few friends is an evocation of a time, a place, a person, how they express emotions they have no words for, breathing, and indeed, what they are. There is no way forward for humanity as long as people (possibly without thinking about it) take the selfish view that what they do is more important than people.
# Posted on September 10th 2009 by showaddydadito
Re: ITM Establishment
Aye, great post.
Is there an "establishment" or is it more like a pool of common knowledge and experiences which connects people?. Like you talk to a fellow Irish trad player and they recognize, at least, names like Matt Molloy, Tommy Peoples, Kevin Burke, Seamus Ennis, et. al.
Or there is kind of a base knowledge of tunes, the ones most Irish players are likely to know, Why is it that everyone learns the Kesh and Morrison's when starting out? I did and the weird part was that no one ever told me they were "beginner" tune nor did I see a list of "session tunes you should know." I heard the Bothy Band play them and as that was one of the few ITM albums I had at the time, I learned the tunes. It's either a weird collective psychology thing or more likely bands which got really big had a lot of influence on the types of tunes people were learning and playing in sessions. Then it becomes a self-perpetuating thing -- if certain tunes are getting played a lot, people go out and learn those tunes because they are getting played a lot. Nowadays it appears as if Lunasa has that influence. I doubt Siobhan O'Donnell's, Fleur de Mandragore, McLeod's Farewell (aka the Wedding Reel), and those two jigs in G whose names I cannot remember but they have those syncopated bits and everyone, at least in Scotland, is playing them. Can anyone think of another band as influential on people's repertoire?
# Posted on September 10th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: ITM Establishment
Lunasa do seem to be very influential these days on getting tunes out there and played. MacLeod's Farewell though I suspect was played a lot, at least in Scotland, prior to Lunasa playing it as the original Capercaillie version (in E major) was around for a long time.
# Posted on September 10th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: ITM Establishment
Great discussion.
From what I've seen, an inspiring player is enough to shape music on a local level. Enough to get other players to learn "that tune", or to work on developing that style in the kitchen at home. The players around them improve. On the other hand, a session with such a player can become biased to that instrument, or that particular set of tunes. New players will naturally pick up that instrument, and if the other instruments with no such leader tend to languish a bit.
The traveller specific aspect of your research is interesting. You'll get the odd exceptional player that will travel between sessions. Or you might go to a fleadh, festival etc. And that's where you'll meet a new set of players, pick up new inspiration, new tunes etc. I met a great pipes player (who's an Irish Traveller) at my local session, and picked up a few tunes from him. Also, I recently met a load of guys from a session in Nottingham, and learned a couple of sets from them.
Similarly to any other music, the dissemination has to be the big influence in allowing the music to flourish. You owning the same album as me, and learning the same set, means in theory we should be able to play together. Perhaps, pre recordings this was the fundamental contribution of traveller players, it was they who would take tunes around their area, allowing them to spread.
Even now though, with things such as youtube and itunes allowing most of the common music to be on tap, I'm not normally moved to learn a tune until I hear others play it in front of me.
BTW, you're not from Bessbrook/Camlough by any chance?
# Posted on September 10th 2009 by ciaranbradley
Re: ITM Establishment
I recently had a discussion with players from various northern counties of Ireland.
I noted two things - some players felt CCE had become too prescriptive in its organisation. The use of identical tune lists and books in different clubs and different counties was used as evidence of this.
Others felt that CCE were continuing to deliver high quality musicians.
I can understand both arguments. Using identical tune books from one end of the country to the other is a very dangerous thing for a living tradition.
However, the links, organisation, influence and teaching to the young are a real asset of CCE.
# Posted on September 10th 2009 by richrua
Re: ITM Establishment
Yu either wear shoes. Or you dont
# Posted on September 10th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: ITM Establishment
One of the forces in determining style and content is perhaps the overseas festival circuit. The likes of Dublin, Ohio, Winnipeg, Vancouver et al have quite determined agendas when it comes to what they have on stage representing "Irish music". Some big festivals have some pretty whacky ideas of the current state of "Irish culture" full stop, youtube is brilliant a revealing this. The likes of Lunasa and the Sharon Shannon Band have been very successful tapping into this market and the younger musicians view this as being successful as well. All of a sudden you have double basses, djembes and hyper strummed guitars in the sessions and in every other ensemble going.
# Posted on September 10th 2009 by Patkiwi
Re: ITM Establishment
Fascinating range of responses! The Willie Week is a good example, above, of a very direct influence on tunes,styles etc being disseminated to a very focused group well enought committed to travel (very often from abroad) anbd attend for a week's teaching.
The Traveller reference is about Irish Travellers who have had a major influence, but arent recognised for that. the classi example is Johnny Doran whose impact can be discerned in the Bothy Band, the Fureys, Moving Hearts, Planxty etc.Then think of the impact these groups had on this generation. We know society at large ostracised Travellers in the last century, but it would seem that the Irish traditional Muisc fraternity reflected the values and prejudices of the broader community.
And part of my original question is about how, and who, had most influence on this?
Oh and yes, I'm from Camlough, where the Bradleys continue to promote Irish music, language andsport with passion and flair.
# Posted on September 10th 2009 by tommy fegan
Re: ITM Establishment
Tommy
What's the purpose of the said research - you writing a thesis? a book? or just filling a few quiet evenings?
Good luck with it anyhow.
# Posted on September 10th 2009 by showaddydadito
Re: ITM Establishment
Trucks - good one
look - I've got hair growing on my toes.
# Posted on September 10th 2009 by showaddydadito
Re: ITM Establishment
'For some, Caoimhín Ó Raghallaigh is becoming this generation's Tommy Potts.'
You PJ, are clearly retarded.
# Posted on September 10th 2009 by fiddleruairi
Re: ITM Establishment
I am doing research for a book I plan to publish, perhaps late next year. The working title of the research is;
"Coppers and Brass, the influence of Johnny Doran and other Irish Traveller musicians on Irish Traditional Music".
So , while I'm on, I'd be glad to hear from anyone with info on this subject. In particular, I would like some leads on descendants of Irish Travellers who went to America in the second half of the 19th century, to see if there were any musicians among them.
# Posted on September 10th 2009 by tommy fegan
Re: ITM Establishment
By all accounts you would do well to contact the representatives of Elvis Presley, Muhammad Ali and Barak Obama.
# Posted on September 10th 2009 by showaddydadito
Re: ITM Establishment
>> 'For some, Caoimhín Ó Raghallaigh is becoming this generation's Tommy Potts.'
> You PJ, are clearly retarded.
Care to offer a justification for that outburst? Or is cheap personal abuse the most you can manage?
Ed.
# Posted on September 10th 2009 by Presumin Ed
Re: ITM Establishment
"Twenty years from now will most flute players have been indirectly influenced by Niall Keegan"
We can but hope!
# Posted on September 10th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: ITM Establishment
showaddydatio, don't forget to add Lance Armstrong to your list.
# Posted on September 10th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: ITM Establishment
The ascription of kudos has partly been covered (for instance, the reference to Cló Iar-Chonnachta, though, in the past, one might equally apply that to releasing a record on Claddagh or Gael Linn - perhaps much more so), and I'd like to suggest some related angles.
Two organisations which have not been mentioned are the Arts Councils (north and south of the border) which have funded all manner of traditional music projects over the years. Several albums released in recent times have been partially funded by one or the other.
RTÉ has an enormous impact, not least in the planning of its traditional music schedule (Paddy Glackin and Peter 'uilleann pipes' Browne are both senior members of its staff), which is mirrored in part by TG4 and the BBC in Northern Ireland.
Perhaps now diminishing in strength, at one time any project associated with Dónal Lunny immediately attracted kudos.
It's salutary to look at the membership of the board of ITMA, both past and present - http://www.itma.ie/English/Board.html - for an indication of where the power lies in the promotion of traditional music.
# Posted on September 10th 2009 by MacCruiskeen
Re: ITM Establishment
Hello Tommy, great to see that you are still going strong with the music.
Good luck with it.
To answer "who's had most influence on this?" From a personal point of view, the John Doherty recordings have an influence on my learning the music. Oddly enough that you should mention Johnny Doran, as the person I spoke about in my post above is a man called John Rooney, a son in law to Felix Doran. He's plays like he's on fire, and great bloke.
I don't know if you've been in touch with him about this. There's a recording of him playing here:
http://www.grtleeds.co.uk/Culture/rooneyRecordings.html
Certainly sounds like an interesting book. I see a great, glaring question that I hope it asks, and answers
# Posted on September 10th 2009 by ciaranbradley
Re: ITM Establishment
I'm probably way out of touch on this one.
The only real influence I can think of, amongst my fellow musicians, would be listening to Planxty. They would be my 1st influence, so I don't think this would be considered establishment. They do, still, influence younger musicians.
Perhaps the establishment would be the musicians from which Planxty learned, & in turn the, ones' they learned from.
# Posted on September 10th 2009 by Ben Steen
*
I'd listen to Caoimhín Ó Raghallaigh any day. ;)
# Posted on September 10th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: ITM Establishment
Those of us in the outer nimbus of the ITM world are rather like those who practise Buddhism-lite in the West, as opposed to the cradle-Buddhists of the East who live within the huge frowsty apparatus of a collective, ancestral, organised religion where jaw-dropping things are routinely practised under the auspices of a pullulating priesthood.
Maybe this is a bit hard on ancestral Buddhism. But I dare say a lot of Western Buddhists have found it rather different from what they think Buddhism really is, or ought to be.
Anyway: Does the ITM establishment constitute anything like the huge frowsty apparatus of a collective, ancestral, organised religion where jaw-dropping things are routinely practised under the auspices of a pullulating priesthood?..
I ask because I don't know.
# Posted on September 10th 2009 by nicholas
Re: ITM Establishment
dunno mate - I just play tunes with friends.
# Posted on September 10th 2009 by showaddydadito
Re: ITM Establishment
Its a local phenomenon
Strong personality steps in and makes the rules. With the older players dying off, who's to tell that something is a part of someone's imagination , or personal view.
# Posted on September 10th 2009 by zippydw
Re: ITM Establishment
....and don't forget The Chieftains!! Paddy Moloney is in charge of the whole thing
# Posted on September 10th 2009 by Dennis Regan
or is the wig controling him ?
# Posted on September 10th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: ITM Establishment
For me ITM's a hobby practised in local sessions whose "establishment" is the cats who started them / play well enough to be on albums / give off a sufficient air of entitlement and taciturn mastery / are too big to silence or eject.
Their credentials in performance are easily assessed. Their claims to cat-hood on the basis of epic adventures and glamorous acquaintances in the Emerald Isle are harder to determine: if one of them starts to describe a party-crawl with De Dannan in such-and-such a year (for example), sure as anything another will say, "Absolute b*ll*cks, I know for a fact they weren't even in the country that year!", and the oral tradition will have shot itself in the foot yet again.
# Posted on September 10th 2009 by nicholas
Re: ITM Establishment
CCÉ, Na Piobairí Uilleann, ITMA, Music Network, An Comhairle Ealaíon, ACNI, Willie Week, Frankie Kennedy Weekend, Armagh Pipers Club, Ceardeas na bFidhilairi, An Goilín etc are probably some of the leading established organisations and agencies who have helped trad artists and brought the tradition to a new and exciting level in recent years.
I think it is the recordings of established musicians and bands in everyones formative years that had an influence on our repetoire and style (apart from our regional accentuated style we grew up playing unbeknownst to us).
I think while the musicians from the travelling community brought the tunes and songs to the towns and cities it was the advent of technology, the demise of the broadsheet and pipers at fairs, the advent of the wireless and new musics that led to their demise as well as the ghettoisation of their stop sites and the stigma the settled community put on travellers because of their traditional lifestyle in a time of escalating change (50's & 60's especially). The Catholic Church didn't exactly step in to defend the God loving travelling community.
By the way I see by the Arts Council website the Deis Scheme has funded scores of trad CDs in the last year from solo, groups to archival and tutorials - FUND THE ARTS!!!! Its all we will have once the shnip comes!!!!
# Posted on September 10th 2009 by iwerzon
Re: ITM Establishment
raises glass to iwerzon
# Posted on September 11th 2009 by mutatis mutandis
Re: ITM Establishment
Or when Sir Walter Raleigh brought back the Solanum Tuberosum Linnaeus from his travels. The Black Adder gave one to Lord Melchett who decided to smoke his. To which the Black Adder commented that they'll be eating them next.
# Posted on September 11th 2009 by Lint - upon - Tweed
Re: ITM Establishment
"........"Twenty years from now will most flute players have been indirectly influenced by Niall Keegan"
We can but hope!......."
Oh god hell on earth! Thankfully any flute players I know who has been on that course can't stand his flute playing.
Tommy Fegan - check out The Raineys - http://www.mustrad.org.uk/reviews/raineys.htm
# Posted on September 11th 2009 by Gerry1972
Re: ITM Establishment
Voice-
Thanks re Raineys. Great musicians and music!
# Posted on September 11th 2009 by tommy fegan
Re: ITM Establishment
Just by way of balance, and certainly not as attack on VocalDivaSteed, over the years I've played in sessions with perhaps twenty or thirty of Niall's student and never heard anything but admiration for his music-making. June McCormack, Muireann Nic Amhlaoibh, and Kieran Munnelly (ex-students of his and flute players all) at least in my hearing, have had nothing but good things to say about the man and his music.
The result is not to everyone's taste but for some it's exciting to hear a musician steeped in trad (taught by Brendan Mulkere, played in St Colmcille's Ceili Band, teaches at CCE's Scoil Éigse) push the boundaries of style (and taste!)..
# Posted on September 11th 2009 by Sweeney Astray
Re: ITM Establishment
Just as a matter of interest, not as a criticism, how good friends with these people are you and what was the context of them imparting this wisdom to you PJ?
Could they simply have been being polite or were they genuinely gushing?
# Posted on September 11th 2009 by Gerry1972
Re: ITM Establishment
Vocal, I've dropped you an email by way of a reply.
# Posted on September 11th 2009 by Sweeney Astray
Re: ITM Establishmentarianism
LLig may like long words, but unfortunately, if comhaltas practise antidisestablishmentarianism, they are against the establishment being dismantled, not as he suggests, approving of it.
We, the Sessionatti are the ITM establishment.
# Posted on September 11th 2009 by geoffwright
Re: ITM Establishment
Sure, I've been establishing myself and my friends in the same pub for years now. [hiccup] We're fairly well established.
# Posted on September 11th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: ITM Establishment
"We, the Sessionatti..."!
The Sessionatti were a c19 group of anarchist bohemians whose admirers came to include Dali, Duchamp, Breton, Picasso, the Kaiser, Churchill, the Queen Mother, Mao, everyone on the Sergeant Pepper album cover, and a huge following of lesser names who probably did better art.
For all that, their works were scanty and obscure. It is known that they specialised in putting live eels down the backs of ladies in the theatre, and that their leader Lugubrio p*ssartisto played a national anthem backwards on paper and comb in some hole where the penalty for doing this was death, but for the rest they and their followers (including the Queen Mother, and Queen Victoria for that matter) were so gargled on absinthe by the time the world took an interest that absolutely nothing they said could be understood, let alone taken on trust.
Lugubrio p*ssartisto's last resting place has lately been declared by a medium to be under a public toilet in Paris, whose footprints are routinely shrouded by weeping druggies.
In short, the Sessionatti were the epicentre of a ferment of intellectual life that helped to form the modern world and make us what we are today.
I have just made all this up.
# Posted on September 11th 2009 by nicholas
Re: ITM Establishment
what
# Posted on September 11th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: ITM Establishment
some people like niall keegans flute playing. fine, but saying that lots of the student from that course admire his playing is wrong. I know plenty of people who have been on the course, have taught on it and are currently lecturing on it, and all of them say niall keegan is killing the idea of trad music. he basically treats the course as his baby.
i dont like his flute playing, i would describe it as 'vomit flute playing', an uncontrollable splurging of notes.
# Posted on September 12th 2009 by fiddleruairi
Re: ITM Establishment
"vomit flute playing"! Colorful, and I'd agree that at times, apt; he certainly can be self indulgent, but not all the time surely. I've heard him play very sweetly with the likes of John Carty and Conal O'Grada.
It's interesting how divergent your impressions, and those of VocalDivaSteed, are from mine, and I'm not for one minute doubting what you or you sources are saying/writing. I wonder though what is that he's doing that's "killing the idea of trad music" given that so many talented young musicians apply for the BA and MA at UL when they could go to UCC, Waterford IT, etc. Even allowing for hyperbole that's a pretty strong and no doubt heartfelt statement. It'd great if you could expand on that a little bit more.
# Posted on September 12th 2009 by Sweeney Astray
Re: ITM Establishment
fiddleruairi, if I'm not being too inquisitive, would I be right in thinking that you're your flute playing mother's son?
# Posted on September 12th 2009 by Sweeney Astray
Re: ITM Establishment
Niall Keegan? Lunasa? Feckin' jazz. ITM is dance music, not "world" music.
I'd rather have pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis than listen to that sort of playing.
# Posted on September 12th 2009 by awildman
Re: ITM Establishment
I guess you know you're getting somewhere in music when you finally have a few people in the world who dislike your playing. He deserves it too - nice, talented guy who seems very devoted to his students....
# Posted on September 12th 2009 by airport
Re: ITM Establishment
I have danced to Niall Keegan playing , many years ago when he was playing with Brendan Ring and Ormand Waters .
They played for set dances in London and very good they were too . No Drums no Piano No need for them Some of the most enjoyable dances I ever went too . Just a guitarist whom I am ashamed to know I cannot remember his name to provide accompaniment .
# Posted on September 12th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: ITM Establishment
"I guess you know you're getting somewhere in music when you finally have a few people in the world who dislike your playing"
Not quite a qualification of a good musician, but good try!
# Posted on September 12th 2009 by Gerry1972
Re: ITM Establishment
I should have explained better - I didn't mean "dislike your playing" in the way the you might dismiss some numpty - I meant the higher level of critique where someone's obviously good enough to earn serious debate about what they're doing, and their dissenters actually think long enough about it to come with such vivid characterizations as "vomit flute playing" - I think that's cool.
# Posted on September 12th 2009 by airport
Re: ITM Establishment
Are Vocaldiva, Fiddlerruari and Dr Gilbert not the same person? It certainly seems that they all arrive and leave here together... coincidence?
For the record I think what little I have heard of Niall's playing is excellent .
# Posted on September 13th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: ITM Establishment
Ionannas, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean we're not all out to get you!
# Posted on September 13th 2009 by Gerry1972
Re: ITM Establishment
So your not one and the same then?
# Posted on September 13th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: ITM Establishment
fraid not, just similar views i guess.
# Posted on September 14th 2009 by Gerry1972
Re: ITM Establishment
ionannas, no, we are not one in the same. you do realise that there could be the slightest chance that some people have similar views and taste in music...and that people may know each other beyond this site.
and i had to laugh at your comment airport, the word you are looking for is a 'martyr' for the music. im afraid niall keegan is not, no matter how much you and im sure he wud love.
and seeing as you asked, 'vomit flute playing' didnt actually take long to come up with. thats the great thing about the human senses. i hear his playing and thats what i think. you said it yourself...its pretty vivid. obviously you think different...which is fine.
# Posted on September 14th 2009 by fiddleruairi
Re: ITM Establishment
Not just similar views, you both arrive here and leave pretty much in tandem, both show a remarkably informed knowledge of trad. This has been going on a while. must be a coincidence. You know each other the?that would explain it I suppose? anyhow none of my business and I couldn't care less anyhow. Just thought it was worth mentioning. Hope yous didn't take offence. Either of You the Dr then? ooops shouldn't ask , belay that question, even if you were you could hardly come out and admit it here now could you?
# Posted on September 14th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: ITM Establishment
Sounds like you are trying to have a row with yourself jig/trad piper/Ionannas
I have been advised that you could go blind if you keep doing this to yourself
# Posted on September 14th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: ITM Establishment
You dont believe that sort of old wives tail do you? who ever gave you that advice was repeating nonsense. Gullible or what!
Bye
# Posted on September 14th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: ITM Establishment
if you couldnt care less then why even ask. nutcase.
# Posted on September 15th 2009 by fiddleruairi
Re: ITM Establishment
The comment about pipers going to USA. Did one of the Cash family give rise to Johnny Cash's family. The picture of Piper Cash on the Doran record looks like the Man in Black to me!
# Posted on September 16th 2009 by Michael Sam Wild