So I've been working away at this tune for a few days. The name is immaterial (that means I don't know it). It is a Breton tune, and I am working it up on the mandolin. (Yes folks I am starting to work it out from the dots!). If I was clever enough I would post it for you to look at.
There is a bit which always trips me up in the third part - there is a sort of a hiatus in the flow of the tune, which is actually what makes it such a pretty tune, but also what makes it hard to play. There are 8 notes (or more accurately 8 half notes) in the bar, and somehow, however hard I concentrate I find I fall off the perch between note 7 and note 8.
Suddenly the other day I found that the problem was that I was thinking of each bar as 12345678 or a-1 a-2 a-3 a-4.
When I thought of each bar as a separate 12345,123 rhythm it all came together!
Yep, I had similar difficulties some years back while learning the jig 'Troy's Wedding', where there's one part which has almost a syncopated feel to it - a very odd grouping of notes at the start of part 3, I think. It's not difficult to play, just the usual problem of getting the brain to interpret something that's not normally found in a jig.
Didn't find an easy way to learn it - just played the notes as I read them, forgetting about rhythm till I could play them - then it all fell into place.
Hmmm. Funky meters don't bother me near as much as beats that blur across the standard meters of 6/8 or 4/4, etc. Stuff like the third part of Guns of the Magnificent Seven (Fintan McManus') or the cross-bar long notes of John McCusker's Sailing through the Narrows. That's where I find lilting the tune really helps--if you can sing the goofy rhythm, you can play it.
Yep, there's a couple like that which jigger me. Eg, thon Battlefield's Sauchiehall St. Salsa one, McHugh's Broken Foot... and then there's one of Reevey's hornpipes - I got it from Oisin's Over The Moor to Maggie album.. but I've just recently(!) sorted out the triplets at the end of the first part (does anyone out there know what I'm on about?)...and I'm still "working towards" both settings of the Crosses of Annagh. Like those job descriptions you see "working towards equal opportunities"... Aww aye. Geezabrek. Ehh?
wrt the recent thread on sight reading vis-a-vis listening, sorry for cross-threading again, but, the one sight-reading ganglion in my brain has shrivelled down, through years of neglect, to a neuritic plaque infested brain-slum. I wish I'd taken it out for exercise a bit more when it was healthy.
In fact, I wish I'd listened to what my mother told me when I was little...
We must have contemporaneously posted, but Yeah, Will! - The Guns ~~~ what a tune! T'would take a better man (or woman) than me, to even *think* about setting it for flute....
Dave, the other Dave (Brubeck) does a similar trick in "Blue Rondo a la Turk" which is apparently in 9/8, but it is played as 2+2+2+3 - a sort of "stretched" 4/4. The important thing is not to play the last 3 notes as a triplet; all the quavers (eighth notes) in the bar are the same length.
Trevor
PS. Dave, I look forward to seeing your tune posted. And if you have any problems in converting it into ABC format I'm sure there're any number of people in the membership who would be happy to help you.
Trevor
Yes - I had heard the tune a couple of times before seeing the dots - but not enough to have it in my head.
It is actually a very simple - nay simplistic - tune. Its really a syncopation issue. The effect in the offending bar is very similar to what happens in ragtime, the commonest being perhaps a rising 1-2-3 1-2-3 1-2-3 1-2-3 giving the feel of a 3 beat timing, then suddenly finding that the fourt time round, the third beat slurs into the next - and behold it was 4 beats all along!
Another place I recall a similar thing is a set on one of Tony Sullivans recordings - (possibly The Masons Apron?) where he plays from a 9/8 jig into a 6/8 - if only I could remember the names (possibly Whinny Hills of Leitrim into Bill Collins?). The first tune sets the listening ear into 9/8 mode, when the second tune comes in, the first part goes by without any problem, but the B part somehow slips you back into 9/8 hearing, and suddenly you get two triplets which seem to jump out of nowhere, leaving you wondering where they came from.
Musicologically it is interesting to note that it is these little "unexpected" moments which give a particular tune its special appeal.
I am sure this will make it all clear
the bit in capitals is the awkward bit.
It goes:
doo doo doo doo dumm diddle doo diddle diddle diddle
doo doo doo doo dumm da diddle diddle dee da da
diddle diddle dee da dumm diddle diddle diddle
diddle diddle dee da diddle diddle dee
da da da da da da DOO DA da da da da da da DOO DA
diddle diddle diddle diddle diddle diddle day
Michael - thank you for the kind offer. Don't wait in for it to arrive, when I looked on the lounge floor I couldn't find the dots. Either she's tidied up, or the boy has taken it back into his room. I don't go there.
If anybody ever figures out what this tune is, I'd love to find out. Dave--I, too, have lost notes on the floor. They fall right out of my head, land there, and the cat bats them under the furniture.
I guess you don't read Doo Daa Diddle notation then! Michael doesn't either. Funny that.
I've got the tune fairly polished now - as I said it is a very simple tune - perhaps that's what made the trip up all the more noticeable.
If you save up all the notes you drop from tunes when you play them, you can use them to make a new tune out of! Look under the settee. (That's the proper word for sofa, if anyone needs to know).
Looking at it differently
Looking at it differently
So I've been working away at this tune for a few days. The name is immaterial (that means I don't know it). It is a Breton tune, and I am working it up on the mandolin. (Yes folks I am starting to work it out from the dots!). If I was clever enough I would post it for you to look at.
There is a bit which always trips me up in the third part - there is a sort of a hiatus in the flow of the tune, which is actually what makes it such a pretty tune, but also what makes it hard to play. There are 8 notes (or more accurately 8 half notes) in the bar, and somehow, however hard I concentrate I find I fall off the perch between note 7 and note 8.
Suddenly the other day I found that the problem was that I was thinking of each bar as 12345678 or a-1 a-2 a-3 a-4.
When I thought of each bar as a separate 12345,123 rhythm it all came together!
Feel free, but not pressured, to comment.
Dave
# Posted on October 15th 2003 by showaddydadito
Re: Looking at it differently
Yep, I had similar difficulties some years back while learning the jig 'Troy's Wedding', where there's one part which has almost a syncopated feel to it - a very odd grouping of notes at the start of part 3, I think. It's not difficult to play, just the usual problem of getting the brain to interpret something that's not normally found in a jig.
Didn't find an easy way to learn it - just played the notes as I read them, forgetting about rhythm till I could play them - then it all fell into place.
Jim
# Posted on October 15th 2003 by Worldfiddler
Re: Looking at it differently
Go learn Thunderhead in it's original 7/8 time signature...that ought to do it. *grin*
# Posted on October 15th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Looking at it differently
I'm curious, Dave--had you heard this tune before you saw the dots?
Zina: Pink Floyd's "Money" is in 7/8 too, you know. Or maybe 7/4. But it's in 7. And "Everything's All Right" from Jesus Christ Superstar is in five.
---Michael B.
# Posted on October 15th 2003 by MichaelBolton
Re: Looking at it differently
Hmmm. Funky meters don't bother me near as much as beats that blur across the standard meters of 6/8 or 4/4, etc. Stuff like the third part of Guns of the Magnificent Seven (Fintan McManus') or the cross-bar long notes of John McCusker's Sailing through the Narrows. That's where I find lilting the tune really helps--if you can sing the goofy rhythm, you can play it.
# Posted on October 15th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: Looking at it differently
Yep, there's a couple like that which jigger me. Eg, thon Battlefield's Sauchiehall St. Salsa one, McHugh's Broken Foot... and then there's one of Reevey's hornpipes - I got it from Oisin's Over The Moor to Maggie album.. but I've just recently(!) sorted out the triplets at the end of the first part (does anyone out there know what I'm on about?)...and I'm still "working towards" both settings of the Crosses of Annagh. Like those job descriptions you see "working towards equal opportunities"... Aww aye. Geezabrek. Ehh?
wrt the recent thread on sight reading vis-a-vis listening, sorry for cross-threading again, but, the one sight-reading ganglion in my brain has shrivelled down, through years of neglect, to a neuritic plaque infested brain-slum. I wish I'd taken it out for exercise a bit more when it was healthy.
In fact, I wish I'd listened to what my mother told me when I was little...
"Oh, really?!? Why, what did she tell you?"
...I don't know I never listened.
(
# Posted on October 15th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: Looking at it differently
We must have contemporaneously posted, but Yeah, Will! - The Guns ~~~ what a tune! T'would take a better man (or woman) than me, to even *think* about setting it for flute....
...but now there's a challenge....
# Posted on October 15th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: Looking at it differently
Where's LongNote then? He played it on flute with Mr. McManus' near on the night it was composed. To be a fly on the wall in that room, eh?
# Posted on October 15th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: Looking at it differently
Dave, the other Dave (Brubeck) does a similar trick in "Blue Rondo a la Turk" which is apparently in 9/8, but it is played as 2+2+2+3 - a sort of "stretched" 4/4. The important thing is not to play the last 3 notes as a triplet; all the quavers (eighth notes) in the bar are the same length.
Trevor
# Posted on October 15th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Looking at it differently
PS. Dave, I look forward to seeing your tune posted. And if you have any problems in converting it into ABC format I'm sure there're any number of people in the membership who would be happy to help you.
Trevor
# Posted on October 15th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Looking at it differently
Michael
Yes - I had heard the tune a couple of times before seeing the dots - but not enough to have it in my head.
It is actually a very simple - nay simplistic - tune. Its really a syncopation issue. The effect in the offending bar is very similar to what happens in ragtime, the commonest being perhaps a rising 1-2-3 1-2-3 1-2-3 1-2-3 giving the feel of a 3 beat timing, then suddenly finding that the fourt time round, the third beat slurs into the next - and behold it was 4 beats all along!
Another place I recall a similar thing is a set on one of Tony Sullivans recordings - (possibly The Masons Apron?) where he plays from a 9/8 jig into a 6/8 - if only I could remember the names (possibly Whinny Hills of Leitrim into Bill Collins?). The first tune sets the listening ear into 9/8 mode, when the second tune comes in, the first part goes by without any problem, but the B part somehow slips you back into 9/8 hearing, and suddenly you get two triplets which seem to jump out of nowhere, leaving you wondering where they came from.
Musicologically it is interesting to note that it is these little "unexpected" moments which give a particular tune its special appeal.
Dave
# Posted on October 15th 2003 by showaddydadito
Re: Looking at it differently
Trevor
I am sure this will make it all clear
the bit in capitals is the awkward bit.
It goes:
doo doo doo doo dumm diddle doo diddle diddle diddle
doo doo doo doo dumm da diddle diddle dee da da
diddle diddle dee da dumm diddle diddle diddle
diddle diddle dee da diddle diddle dee
da da da da da da DOO DA da da da da da da DOO DA
diddle diddle diddle diddle diddle diddle day
Dave
# Posted on October 15th 2003 by showaddydadito
Re: Looking at it differently
Dave, yes, that is looking at it differently.
Trevor
# Posted on October 15th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Looking at it differently
I thought we were proscribed from posting tunes in Doo Daa Diddle notation here.
If you can send me a scan of the dots, I can transcribe to ABC if you like.
---Michael B.
# Posted on October 16th 2003 by MichaelBolton
Re: Looking at it differently
Michael - thank you for the kind offer. Don't wait in for it to arrive, when I looked on the lounge floor I couldn't find the dots. Either she's tidied up, or the boy has taken it back into his room. I don't go there.
cheers
Dave
# Posted on October 16th 2003 by showaddydadito
Re: Looking at it differently
If anybody ever figures out what this tune is, I'd love to find out. Dave--I, too, have lost notes on the floor. They fall right out of my head, land there, and the cat bats them under the furniture.
# Posted on October 16th 2003 by woman of the house
Re: Looking at it differently
Cassie
I guess you don't read Doo Daa Diddle notation then! Michael doesn't either. Funny that.
I've got the tune fairly polished now - as I said it is a very simple tune - perhaps that's what made the trip up all the more noticeable.
If you save up all the notes you drop from tunes when you play them, you can use them to make a new tune out of! Look under the settee. (That's the proper word for sofa, if anyone needs to know).
Cheers all
Dave
# Posted on October 16th 2003 by showaddydadito