im an intermediate player , but new to sessions - what i play is ok, but i dont know a great number of tunes yet.
i have a few confusions about sessions, money and booze.
some sessions i have been to get a great (and big) crowd who are obviously there to hear the music. yet the players buy all their own drinks, with a very rare round bought by the landlord.
other sessions ive been to, with fewer and seemingly less enthusiastic punters, obviously have a couple of paid musicians, also everyone with an instrument gets their drinks free of charge, even people like me who might sit there and only play 5 tunes all night, while quaffing $20 worth of ale. i'm a little bemused how the landlord agrees to this.
then there are sessions with sometimes only a small number of punters, where a couple of players get paid, who seem to have a habit of leaving early if there are enough others playing to hold the fort and entertain the punters, while paying for their own drinks.
this all sounds a bit mercenary; it isnt, as a newcomer, im just curious as to how all this works.
Every session is different. The perspective from a pub owner agreeing to pay some hosts or to provide drink is that the music will draw in customers and keep them there.
Most sessions I have been to the pub will offer the musicians something whether that is some cash or one free drink per musician. One of the pubs brings out trays of sandwiches/toasties/pizza/chips. It varies from session to session presumably depending on what he has.
At some sessions the publican gives you one free drink. At others the players get two free drinks and food. At some sessions there are no free drinks. And at every session you know one or two players are getting paid.
One solution is to only go to those sessions where you get a free drinks but that only limits your exposure to the music and good times.
Where I live there are about 12 sessions in an hours drive of my house some monthly most weekly and no one as far as I know gets paid or regular free beer . I wish !
We are taken care of here in our sessions. One pub gives us a handsome tab that we can use up. Another all the food and drink we can consume. Another a pretty good tab that keeps everyone satisfied. Another gives us drinks irregularly, but they seem t be struggling, so that's okay. Where they are generous, we leave huge tips.
Wherevery we go, however, we feel appreciated and I am sure each place does what it can.
We get drinks. Lots. We are under no pressure to play from the landlord Con who is near enough a personal friend anyway, and quite a remarkable man altogether, whom everyone loves. But he has reaped his reward way long before he will meet St Peter in heaven, because the Thursday Blythe session is as close to heaven as we earthbound mortal spirits will ever aspire to.
Posting as it's a jig-free thread as things stand and it's a topic after my own heart. Money is the root of all evil. We don't want money, but we get free Doom Bar all night. We're deliriously happy as a result and there's just no pressure. It means we can stop, start, chat and have swearing/lying/smoking/bonking breaks at will (braggin' again...). We can also get free beer for good guests who show up. Bad guests don't get to play much anyway and they don't get to hear about the free beer.
When you say you're drinking "$20 worth of ale" you're using the wrong number. The menu price is irrelevant, the purchase price is the important number, and that's about the least important piece of the purchase cost of your pint. When you pay for a pint at the bar, you're paying for the wages of the guy who pours the beer, a few people who bring the beer from the bar to the table, the kitchen staff, someone to swamp the place out at the end of the night, upkeep on the tap lines, rent on the space, taxes, any profit the owner might take home, and a billion other things, of which the liquid in the glass is just one, and what you and your mates drink over the course of the nights is probably written off as lossage or promotional expenses - at retail cost. So don't water down your beer crying for the landlord - you might be drinking $5 worth of ale over the course of a night, if you work it out as a portion of the keg, and if there's ten players, that means he's getting a night's entertainment for $50. Considering you couldn't get me to open my case for less than $100 when I was working as a musician, that's pretty good. And it all works out, too. I enjoy the beer, I enjoy the tunes, and since I don't have to do any logistics to set up a gig or even call to cancel if I decide not to turn up, a few beers is more than enough to make me feel well taken care of.
jon,
what you say makes sense, but the menu price is not irrelevant,
if i sit in a pub and drink $20 of ale, and pay for it - which i do at some sessions - it costs me $20.
by your math, if instead the landlord pays for these drinks, that costs the landlord $5, so the difference in his till at the end of the night is -$25. the difference in my pocket is +$20
if i go to 2 sessions a week and the landlord pays for the drink, it helps me avoid spending $40. at the moment this is a significant sum for me,.
my feeling about this relates to this notion of menu vs cost price.
i think a good way to run a session is to give the players heavily discounted/ *cost price* drinks; i'm talking about 65%+ discount on the list price
doing it this way, no one is trying to work out who is making money off who..
its reassuring to hear that many of you are "looked after"...
before i started playing, i would always look for pubs with live music and sessions, and spend my beer vouchers there,
its only fair that some of this is passed on.
i havent played in loads of sessions, but already this moneystink pervades.............
First of all, your arithmetic is off. When he pours those pints, he's on the hook for, let's say $5, whether or not you pay for them. So if you pay the $20, he's now got $20-$5=$15 in his till, if you're counting in the replacement cost. If you don't pay, he's out the $5 he paid for the beer, period.
But the point I was trying to highlight is that when you talk about the landlord giving you $20 worth of beer, the real economic difference at the end of the day is not $15 or $20 in his till, but $5 - which, as I say, is most likely noted down and written off his taxes at the end of the year, at the retail cost, as a promotional expense. So most likely, he's actually making a profit on that beer he gives you, when it lowers his tax bill.
As to the money in your pocket, well, you're treating the beer as wages now. It's fair to use the retail cost there, but I surely hope that you're not working as a musician for $20 per night! If you are, I've got some boys from the musician's union who'll want to have a word with you...
(No, they're not going to break your fingers, they're going to discuss ways to negotiate better contracts so you don't undercut other musicians - what do you think this is, the 1940s or something?)
All of this talk makes the whole business sound pretty mercenary, which it shouldn't. Sessions are not about making a living (for most of us - the "leader fee" is part of the income stream that keeps some players above water) but keeping the tunes alive. But to consider it a great act of generosity to pass a few pints over the bar is to completely misunderstand the economics of the situation. The reality is: the bar wants music, because music brings in drinkers. The cheapest way to hire musicians is by the glass. This is an arrangement that works out well for all concerned.
Over the years I've been paid in money, drink, and in other 'ahem' ways. Following one monumental session in Aghada, Cork, payment was a sack of potatos.
I was there to play the music. How I was paid - if at all - was very much secondary. If I didn't play in that bar on that night I would've been playing at home for my own enjoyment.
Those of you who need to be paid as it's your primary means of income - you should have a written contract before you begin, just like any other paid employment.
Denis Regan's sack of potatoes reminds me of the session in Rosie's, Ballydehob, back when I first started playing there, and the old landlady Rose O'Sullivan was still alive. Myself and partner were the ones there every week to hold things together at that time, and, apart from pints, were sometimes given a rabbit or a couple of pigeons for the pot at the end of the night, when Rose's son had been out shooting. (I hope there's no vegetarians reading this!)
As someone who runs a sesion ,and who gets free beer for it, I can well empathise with anyone elsr who does also. Other players recieve one free drink and although I try to keep my situation discreet, it does cause a number of problems. Firstly politics desrees that if another player offers to buy me a drink, then I'm obliged to by one back, which I must pay for, which kind of defeats the point. If I decline a drink, well that's unsociable and just puts the word out that I'm given preferencial treatment. To be honest, the politics of the whole thing puts me off doing it in the first place.
Twice monthly we gather at a nearby pub for a few hours of tunes, song, and camaraderie. There is no money directly paid to any of us. The pub takes care of the drinks tab at night's end, including my whiskey. We're under no pressure to play and oft times will chat a good bit in our corner. The pub on these nights is busier then when we first started up and not just with musicians drinking for free. I've been known to stop in from time to time for a wee glass not on a session night and have had my small tab (one or two whiskeys) taken care of by the pub on some of these occasions, never expected by the way. The publican said to me after the first couple times we gathered at this pub that having the music there does his heart good as it reminds him of back in Galway City. It's not always about the money as I could readily pay for my whiskeys, most times anyway. To me it's about the music and camaraderie, not only with the other musicians but also with those that turn up to listen as well.
All that said would I, or have I, taken pay for organizing a session? Absolutely, but then it was a job no different then any other paying gig and I agreed to certain provisions and lived up to them. Which is not to say that a session whereby "leaders" are paid cannot be a brilliant session. Fact is there is just such a session about a ninety minute drive from me each Sunday (sans July and August anyway). It's just like sitting in one's parlor with friends having some tunes and chat. Well except for the occasional over imbibed patron calling for the song about the horse with a horn in the middle of its forehead.
Again, it seems to me there isn't just one protocol to be applied to all circumstances and not everything can be accurately judged by one or two its attributes.
Has anyone ever been offered a free pumpkin as payment for performing? Yes, this actually did happen to me and some of my partners-in-crime a few years ago after we had played for about two or three hours at a commercial pumpkin farm in the country on a very pleasant day in October. We were allowed to choose which pumpkin we wanted to take home with us.
i once taught music to someone who paid me in oranges.
i wouldnt want to get too embroiled in this moneystink;
in the current $$$ climate i have the time to attend/play in alot of sessions, but not the $$$ to pay for an evenings beer.
i cant join sesions without going to the pub;;;
and so i end up thinking about how to play while avoiding paying;
this is what prompts the original question.
Well, if you don't have the funds to pay for the pints, you'll have to either find a pub owner who understands the math, and doesn't object to paying for the players' drinks, or else you could find a few folks who want to play and have a house session. Cheaper to buy the beer by the sixpack than over the counter. Cheaper still to brew it yourself, if you can come up with about $100 to $150 for the initial gear, and I can promise you you'll enjoy drinking beer you've brewed yourself a lot more than the stuff someone else made.
(most things in this world are better when you make them yourself, and beer, bread, and music are certainly among them)
I don't know about session payments - I'm happy if we get a free drink, but I don't drink much anyway.
What I do know is that I've never played in a band that didn't have a vegetarian in it. Usually the fiddle-player, but the guitarist in the current unit.
I knew a session , with a "host" for the session, a fairly good flutist.
The landlord would throw him some gas money for his long drive, and made sure he got fed if he wanted.
Then the "host" became cocky and unreliable, the landlord apparently stopped paying and the superstar stopped coming - too expensive, and not worth his time.
sessions, money and booze
sessions, money and booze
im an intermediate player , but new to sessions - what i play is ok, but i dont know a great number of tunes yet.
i have a few confusions about sessions, money and booze.
some sessions i have been to get a great (and big) crowd who are obviously there to hear the music. yet the players buy all their own drinks, with a very rare round bought by the landlord.
other sessions ive been to, with fewer and seemingly less enthusiastic punters, obviously have a couple of paid musicians, also everyone with an instrument gets their drinks free of charge, even people like me who might sit there and only play 5 tunes all night, while quaffing $20 worth of ale. i'm a little bemused how the landlord agrees to this.
then there are sessions with sometimes only a small number of punters, where a couple of players get paid, who seem to have a habit of leaving early if there are enough others playing to hold the fort and entertain the punters, while paying for their own drinks.
this all sounds a bit mercenary; it isnt, as a newcomer, im just curious as to how all this works.
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by tantum ergo
Re: sessions, money and booze
Every session is different. The perspective from a pub owner agreeing to pay some hosts or to provide drink is that the music will draw in customers and keep them there.
Most sessions I have been to the pub will offer the musicians something whether that is some cash or one free drink per musician. One of the pubs brings out trays of sandwiches/toasties/pizza/chips. It varies from session to session presumably depending on what he has.
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: sessions, money and booze
I have yet to figure this all out.
At some sessions the publican gives you one free drink. At others the players get two free drinks and food. At some sessions there are no free drinks. And at every session you know one or two players are getting paid.
One solution is to only go to those sessions where you get a free drinks but that only limits your exposure to the music and good times.
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by Cape Cod Struggler
Re: sessions, money and booze
Where I live there are about 12 sessions in an hours drive of my house some monthly most weekly and no one as far as I know gets paid or regular free beer . I wish !
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: sessions, money and booze
We are taken care of here in our sessions. One pub gives us a handsome tab that we can use up. Another all the food and drink we can consume. Another a pretty good tab that keeps everyone satisfied. Another gives us drinks irregularly, but they seem t be struggling, so that's okay. Where they are generous, we leave huge tips.
Wherevery we go, however, we feel appreciated and I am sure each place does what it can.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by feardearg
Re: sessions, money and booze
We get drinks. Lots. We are under no pressure to play from the landlord Con who is near enough a personal friend anyway, and quite a remarkable man altogether, whom everyone loves. But he has reaped his reward way long before he will meet St Peter in heaven, because the Thursday Blythe session is as close to heaven as we earthbound mortal spirits will ever aspire to.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by Rudall the time
Re: sessions, money and booze
Posting as it's a jig-free thread as things stand and it's a topic after my own heart. Money is the root of all evil. We don't want money, but we get free Doom Bar all night. We're deliriously happy as a result and there's just no pressure. It means we can stop, start, chat and have swearing/lying/smoking/bonking breaks at will (braggin' again...). We can also get free beer for good guests who show up. Bad guests don't get to play much anyway and they don't get to hear about the free beer.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: sessions, money and booze
When you say you're drinking "$20 worth of ale" you're using the wrong number. The menu price is irrelevant, the purchase price is the important number, and that's about the least important piece of the purchase cost of your pint. When you pay for a pint at the bar, you're paying for the wages of the guy who pours the beer, a few people who bring the beer from the bar to the table, the kitchen staff, someone to swamp the place out at the end of the night, upkeep on the tap lines, rent on the space, taxes, any profit the owner might take home, and a billion other things, of which the liquid in the glass is just one, and what you and your mates drink over the course of the nights is probably written off as lossage or promotional expenses - at retail cost. So don't water down your beer crying for the landlord - you might be drinking $5 worth of ale over the course of a night, if you work it out as a portion of the keg, and if there's ten players, that means he's getting a night's entertainment for $50. Considering you couldn't get me to open my case for less than $100 when I was working as a musician, that's pretty good. And it all works out, too. I enjoy the beer, I enjoy the tunes, and since I don't have to do any logistics to set up a gig or even call to cancel if I decide not to turn up, a few beers is more than enough to make me feel well taken care of.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: sessions, money and booze
jon,
what you say makes sense, but the menu price is not irrelevant,
if i sit in a pub and drink $20 of ale, and pay for it - which i do at some sessions - it costs me $20.
by your math, if instead the landlord pays for these drinks, that costs the landlord $5, so the difference in his till at the end of the night is -$25. the difference in my pocket is +$20
if i go to 2 sessions a week and the landlord pays for the drink, it helps me avoid spending $40. at the moment this is a significant sum for me,.
my feeling about this relates to this notion of menu vs cost price.
i think a good way to run a session is to give the players heavily discounted/ *cost price* drinks; i'm talking about 65%+ discount on the list price
doing it this way, no one is trying to work out who is making money off who..
its reassuring to hear that many of you are "looked after"...
before i started playing, i would always look for pubs with live music and sessions, and spend my beer vouchers there,
its only fair that some of this is passed on.
i havent played in loads of sessions, but already this moneystink pervades.............
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by tantum ergo
Re: sessions, money and booze
First of all, your arithmetic is off. When he pours those pints, he's on the hook for, let's say $5, whether or not you pay for them. So if you pay the $20, he's now got $20-$5=$15 in his till, if you're counting in the replacement cost. If you don't pay, he's out the $5 he paid for the beer, period.
But the point I was trying to highlight is that when you talk about the landlord giving you $20 worth of beer, the real economic difference at the end of the day is not $15 or $20 in his till, but $5 - which, as I say, is most likely noted down and written off his taxes at the end of the year, at the retail cost, as a promotional expense. So most likely, he's actually making a profit on that beer he gives you, when it lowers his tax bill.
As to the money in your pocket, well, you're treating the beer as wages now. It's fair to use the retail cost there, but I surely hope that you're not working as a musician for $20 per night! If you are, I've got some boys from the musician's union who'll want to have a word with you...
(No, they're not going to break your fingers, they're going to discuss ways to negotiate better contracts so you don't undercut other musicians - what do you think this is, the 1940s or something?)
All of this talk makes the whole business sound pretty mercenary, which it shouldn't. Sessions are not about making a living (for most of us - the "leader fee" is part of the income stream that keeps some players above water) but keeping the tunes alive. But to consider it a great act of generosity to pass a few pints over the bar is to completely misunderstand the economics of the situation. The reality is: the bar wants music, because music brings in drinkers. The cheapest way to hire musicians is by the glass. This is an arrangement that works out well for all concerned.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: sessions, money and booze
Over the years I've been paid in money, drink, and in other 'ahem' ways. Following one monumental session in Aghada, Cork, payment was a sack of potatos.
I was there to play the music. How I was paid - if at all - was very much secondary. If I didn't play in that bar on that night I would've been playing at home for my own enjoyment.
Those of you who need to be paid as it's your primary means of income - you should have a written contract before you begin, just like any other paid employment.
Theres nothing to figure out about it.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by Dennis Regan
Re: sessions, money and booze
I want to hear more about these other 'ahem' ways...
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by Joe CSS
Re: sessions, money and booze
Denis Regan's sack of potatoes reminds me of the session in Rosie's, Ballydehob, back when I first started playing there, and the old landlady Rose O'Sullivan was still alive. Myself and partner were the ones there every week to hold things together at that time, and, apart from pints, were sometimes given a rabbit or a couple of pigeons for the pot at the end of the night, when Rose's son had been out shooting. (I hope there's no vegetarians reading this!)
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by cathycook
Re: sessions, money and booze
As someone who runs a sesion ,and who gets free beer for it, I can well empathise with anyone elsr who does also. Other players recieve one free drink and although I try to keep my situation discreet, it does cause a number of problems. Firstly politics desrees that if another player offers to buy me a drink, then I'm obliged to by one back, which I must pay for, which kind of defeats the point. If I decline a drink, well that's unsociable and just puts the word out that I'm given preferencial treatment. To be honest, the politics of the whole thing puts me off doing it in the first place.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by Clashma
Re: sessions, money and booze
Twice monthly we gather at a nearby pub for a few hours of tunes, song, and camaraderie. There is no money directly paid to any of us. The pub takes care of the drinks tab at night's end, including my whiskey. We're under no pressure to play and oft times will chat a good bit in our corner. The pub on these nights is busier then when we first started up and not just with musicians drinking for free. I've been known to stop in from time to time for a wee glass not on a session night and have had my small tab (one or two whiskeys) taken care of by the pub on some of these occasions, never expected by the way. The publican said to me after the first couple times we gathered at this pub that having the music there does his heart good as it reminds him of back in Galway City. It's not always about the money as I could readily pay for my whiskeys, most times anyway. To me it's about the music and camaraderie, not only with the other musicians but also with those that turn up to listen as well.
All that said would I, or have I, taken pay for organizing a session? Absolutely, but then it was a job no different then any other paying gig and I agreed to certain provisions and lived up to them. Which is not to say that a session whereby "leaders" are paid cannot be a brilliant session. Fact is there is just such a session about a ninety minute drive from me each Sunday (sans July and August anyway). It's just like sitting in one's parlor with friends having some tunes and chat. Well except for the occasional over imbibed patron calling for the song about the horse with a horn in the middle of its forehead.
Again, it seems to me there isn't just one protocol to be applied to all circumstances and not everything can be accurately judged by one or two its attributes.
All the best!
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by ejsant
Re: sessions, money and booze
Has anyone ever been offered a free pumpkin as payment for performing? Yes, this actually did happen to me and some of my partners-in-crime a few years ago after we had played for about two or three hours at a commercial pumpkin farm in the country on a very pleasant day in October. We were allowed to choose which pumpkin we wanted to take home with us.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: sessions, money and booze
i once taught music to someone who paid me in oranges.
i wouldnt want to get too embroiled in this moneystink;
in the current $$$ climate i have the time to attend/play in alot of sessions, but not the $$$ to pay for an evenings beer.
i cant join sesions without going to the pub;;;
and so i end up thinking about how to play while avoiding paying;
this is what prompts the original question.
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by tantum ergo
Re: sessions, money and booze
Well, if you don't have the funds to pay for the pints, you'll have to either find a pub owner who understands the math, and doesn't object to paying for the players' drinks, or else you could find a few folks who want to play and have a house session. Cheaper to buy the beer by the sixpack than over the counter. Cheaper still to brew it yourself, if you can come up with about $100 to $150 for the initial gear, and I can promise you you'll enjoy drinking beer you've brewed yourself a lot more than the stuff someone else made.
(most things in this world are better when you make them yourself, and beer, bread, and music are certainly among them)
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: sessions, money and booze
I don't know about session payments - I'm happy if we get a free drink, but I don't drink much anyway.
What I do know is that I've never played in a band that didn't have a vegetarian in it. Usually the fiddle-player, but the guitarist in the current unit.
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: sessions, money and booze
I knew a session , with a "host" for the session, a fairly good flutist.
The landlord would throw him some gas money for his long drive, and made sure he got fed if he wanted.
Then the "host" became cocky and unreliable, the landlord apparently stopped paying and the superstar stopped coming - too expensive, and not worth his time.
Just another unique case.
Hey - whatever works, till it doesn't, right?
Good luck, all.
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by Piece
Re: sessions, money and booze
Money isn't the root of all evil - Love of money is.
Where your treasure is - there is your heart also.
Is your treasure your music and heritage, your speed of playing or the dosh you can earn?
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by geoffwright
Re: sessions, money and booze
At least you live in a place where the law allows the pub owner and/or bartender to give you free beer.
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by fauxcelt