The Session >> Discussions >> Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
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Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
Others may call them 'punters', the regular people who come along to listen, support, help out and generally augment and enoble the regular session, but though your own opinion may be at variance, my preference is not to employ the term punter/s. "Non-playing session attendees" won't catch on either though. Whatever.
Is it best, as a general strategy, to fully integrate with the hoi polloi, to be one of the lads/lasses, but one who, as a wee daft hobby also plays some silly diddly music, OR, to keep your music life and your street life as 2 seperate entities, keeping a wall between yourself and any unneccesary, unworthy and possibly unprofitable social contact?
These two extremes have been thus profiled, and of course the truth for any said session lies somewhere in between. I merely wish with these reflections and questions to garner the ethos(es) to which others and their sessions align to, contrive by and function as.
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
This question reminds me of a true story: One evening, the usually busy pub was almost empty. "At least we'll be able to hear ourselves, for a change," says I.
But then a couple of non-playing friends of one player sat themselves at our table and commenced to chatter and shriek over some gossip, making it impossible to hear ourselves play. That's where we drew the line, and asked them to kindly relocate themselves.
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
I once gleefully watched an enormous Irish-born gentleman with what sounded like a Belfast accent get up and tell a table full of obnoxious drunken frat boys that if they didn't shut the feck up and quit interrupting the tunes he'd personally pound them into silence. They quickly complied and moved to the far end of the pub. Nice when you have listeners like that nearby on a noisy night.
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
Wee daft hobby, silly diddly. Brilliant. I hate playing for people. Love playing with people. And all the players are at the pub. So there I am. Plus they have guinness there.
In my world, players and punters are like flightless cormorants and galapagos penguins: occupying the same ecological niche, not quite competitors and largely indifferent to one another's existence.
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
I'll flirt with them, but ... oh, that wasn't the question, was it.
I more or less ignore them, unless I complain about the noise they make. Sometimes I have a conversation with them and that's nice. Mostly, I wish they'd yell a little less abrasively, and somewhere else, when something happens on the TV.
The ones who want to talk to you while you're playing are the ones I have the most trouble with - it's a little hard to understand what might be going on in that mind, isn't it, when they're chattering away as you're obviously engaged in a reasonably demanding activity.
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
I've taken part in many a session over the year in Ireland, the US and the UK.
The best sessions have been noisy to say the least - but, there are always one or two musicians who are so far up themselves that they expect total silence when they play. We usually managed to get rid of 'em in the end.
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
Yes, it's quite simple, Mairtin. It's meant to be fun - a lot of people forget that. When the "session" becomes so serious that it becomes the end in itself it's time to find another way of expressing yourself other than playing music.
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
Every session is different. At one I frequented the room was so small that you couldn't be in there unless you were there for the music, go to the big room next door and the crowds could and would be so loud that It could easily become nearly impossible to play and hear yourself, same pub, different room. Acoustic spaces can have a huge effect on the volume and for want of a better word, Vibe.
Also how well everyone is in tune is an oft forgotten point, the better everyone is in tune the louder and clearer and more cohesive the sound is. People are attracted towards dynamic, harmonious playing, and repulsed by the opposite.
If the crowd starts to get too boisterous a loud and powerful singer can draw attention back to the music if it has slipped for some reason or other, then,as long as you can shut the singer up get back to the tunes!
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
Well said Dennis I vote for fun everytime. I have been to sessions in France for example where they are so intence no one smiles you wonder why they play music?
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
Do what 99% of trad musicians do when playing in public. Keep looking at the ground or at your instrument. Keep your eyes tightly closed when playing, in the hope that the audience may go away, and who knows...they may well do.
Lastly if asked a question by a member of the audience about the tune, or complimented on your playing, just look embarrassed..give your head a toss and say the following sentence..'Ah Shure'.... Don't forget now...Ah Shure...!
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
This guy "lost it " is taking the pi** out of the lot of you. He is the guy who recently posted the question about how your bowel movements vary when playing ITM.Needless to say it was quickly deleted.He is up to his pi** taking antics again !!
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
Maybe so, but that can still lead to informative interesting discussion maybe completely of tangent, but still fun. Sounds like a reasonable question to me. An issue many of us face playing in public spaces.
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
Well said Dennis and Máirtín, well said indeed!
To me the answer to the question asked is simple; "Wherever you wish to!".
If the din is too much where you are playing, play elsewhere. Ah, but says you; "One or two of us are being payed to be here". Then says I; "Steady up and get on with your task".
Simple really, isn't it?
All the best!
Peace,
Ed
Remember not much of life can be completely scripted to one's preferences if one lives amongst others.
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
On the floor (obviously), between the musicians and said "non-playing session attendees", at a distance of at least three feet from the nearest musician. And if a 12-volt DC cattle wire can be rigged up along that line, all the better.
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
So long as no one is having a loud conversation in my ear while I'm trying to play so I can't hear a thing, or worse, trying to talk to me while I am playing, or being creepy and groping, having punters around a pub atmosphere is good craic.
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
Don't crowd us.
Hands off our axes, and we mean it.
We won't drown out the conversation, and you don't drown out the music.
Got a song? Good for you, you can keep it till asked.
We are not being paid to entertain - any requests, let alone demands, made may be countered by some rather poetic requests of our own.
Such as "On your way out..."
The landlord is the final authority -if he/she is worth his/her salt, everyone can have a good time and get along in this PUBLIC house.
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
Sessions to most establishments = instant atmosphere. So snubbing the punter's isn't really cool, but if someones noisily talking (of which I am sometimes guilty) and raised eyebrow or even a glare, or a "shut up an play" works well. If the non musicians are holding up too much of the audible space (I need to be able to hear others well in a session because of the vast variations in simple tunes, I try to match whatever they are doing to keep it sounding nice), well then I just walk away. It hurts my head when there's a train wreck, so I just get out of there.
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
and more about it... I leave ... after expressing my disdain... passive aggressive nature I guess. Speaking of train wrecks, they have othere causes such as loud noodlers, or just everyone hammering away at their own version of the tune oblivious to the group, bodhrans gone tribal you name it. It's worth maybe a couple of attempts to correct the direction, but still usually I just opt out. If the atmosphere is good and generating sales for the establishment, I'd rather go share my bad vibes.
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
In our session at The York pub, Broomhill, Sheffield the non-players are an essential part of the crack. We don't consider them listeners or audience but welcome all as long as they understand the 'etiquette' At the moment we can all get in , about 30 people I reckon
We're lucky as we have a 'snug' but there's not a door anymore and regulars and other customers become involved
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
I think it's good when players and punters inhabit adjacent and parallel universes, the music being of the right loudness to disinhibit the talkers and the talk being of the right loudness to disinhibit the players. And when some good playing occasions a general hush, it means the music has earned this.
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
I like to make a comparison with a group of people telling jokes. You do it to entertain yourselves, but if other people want to listen, or even join in, then let them. If they don't know any decent jokes it is easy to shut them up. But the ones telling jokes wouldn't expect everyone else in the room to keep quiet.
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
A little off-topic, but something slightly disconcerting happened at our Tuesday session this week. As some of you may know, we start this session in the Naval Volunteer in the heart of Bristol on the dot at 8.30*. The pub was reasonably busy with perhaps 30-40 people at the bar and tables. At 8.25 I took my fiddle out of its case and started tuning up. Immediately, the pub virtually emptied, a steady stream of people marching past us to the exit.
The last in the stream, a guy with a clipboard, stopped and apologised for not staying to listen to our music, but their coach had just arrived for the 8.30 pickup. Apparently, according to this tour guide, the coach tour was trying to find pub venues where there was live folk music; our pub would have been ideal but their scheduled timing wasn't quite right on this occasion.
It's not unusual, when we start the session for one or two punters to swiftly down their drinks and depart, but they're more than made up for by people passing outside who hear the music and then come inside to listen and drink. The landlord knew what he was doing when he located us by the windows overlooking the street.
* In fact, Greenwich Observatory is believed to synchronise its beeps with the start of the Tuesday session at the Volunteer - but have a sufficiency of good West Country ale in that pub and you'll be ready to believe anything.
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
Nice story lazy.
Well, I must be one of the electrons (or is it positrons? whatever...) which tunnels between the parallel universes. Not only do I like having a bit of a chat with the non-players, they come over to me and the other sessioneers and have some banter. Also, there is an endless stream of local friends and neighbours so it would be extremely rude not to have a brief chat or at least acknowledge their presence. However I did have a run-in with a very loud Donegal man the other night, but maybe that's best forgotten about.....and that was definitely not the order of the day...........
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
I remember Bart Simpson pooring tyipical scorn on that daft old chestnut. Try it yourself, it's easy. Hold up a hand, either one, and slap your fingers into your palm.
Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
Others may call them 'punters', the regular people who come along to listen, support, help out and generally augment and enoble the regular session, but though your own opinion may be at variance, my preference is not to employ the term punter/s. "Non-playing session attendees" won't catch on either though. Whatever.
Is it best, as a general strategy, to fully integrate with the hoi polloi, to be one of the lads/lasses, but one who, as a wee daft hobby also plays some silly diddly music, OR, to keep your music life and your street life as 2 seperate entities, keeping a wall between yourself and any unneccesary, unworthy and possibly unprofitable social contact?
These two extremes have been thus profiled, and of course the truth for any said session lies somewhere in between. I merely wish with these reflections and questions to garner the ethos(es) to which others and their sessions align to, contrive by and function as.
# Posted on September 4th 2009 by Nick Splease
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
Why not just hold the "sessions" at home, behind closed doors? That way you'll never have to worry about "the others"!!
# Posted on September 4th 2009 by Dennis Regan
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
Players and Listeners.
# Posted on September 4th 2009 by oldstrings
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
The distinction disappears when the music ends.
# Posted on September 4th 2009 by oldstrings
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
I pretend the pub is the kitchen.
# Posted on September 4th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
That being said, I don't think of the kitchen as the pub, however.
# Posted on September 4th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
g'day Danny!
we are all one in music, are we not?
the chatterers and the diddlers all combine to make one mighty cacophony
# Posted on September 4th 2009 by Bren
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
brenyaboyye. your membership of the bhl sesh is beyond honorary, but legendary. lets let this one run see how it pans,if you don't mind......
# Posted on September 4th 2009 by Nick Splease
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
This question reminds me of a true story: One evening, the usually busy pub was almost empty. "At least we'll be able to hear ourselves, for a change," says I.
But then a couple of non-playing friends of one player sat themselves at our table and commenced to chatter and shriek over some gossip, making it impossible to hear ourselves play. That's where we drew the line, and asked them to kindly relocate themselves.
# Posted on September 4th 2009 by tuckered out
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
I once gleefully watched an enormous Irish-born gentleman with what sounded like a Belfast accent get up and tell a table full of obnoxious drunken frat boys that if they didn't shut the feck up and quit interrupting the tunes he'd personally pound them into silence. They quickly complied and moved to the far end of the pub. Nice when you have listeners like that nearby on a noisy night.
# Posted on September 4th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
Wee daft hobby, silly diddly. Brilliant. I hate playing for people. Love playing with people. And all the players are at the pub. So there I am. Plus they have guinness there.
In my world, players and punters are like flightless cormorants and galapagos penguins: occupying the same ecological niche, not quite competitors and largely indifferent to one another's existence.
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by fidkid
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
Its part of 'Care in the Community .
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
In general, it seems the better the music is, the less talkin there is.
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by Kerry Evan
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
I'll flirt with them, but ... oh, that wasn't the question, was it.
I more or less ignore them, unless I complain about the noise they make. Sometimes I have a conversation with them and that's nice. Mostly, I wish they'd yell a little less abrasively, and somewhere else, when something happens on the TV.
The ones who want to talk to you while you're playing are the ones I have the most trouble with - it's a little hard to understand what might be going on in that mind, isn't it, when they're chattering away as you're obviously engaged in a reasonably demanding activity.
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
So, you get rid of them - and who buys the boyos a pint?
In a classy session, who buys the malt?
These folks are out for a good time, and you're providing it.
If you do a good job, well, you'll be rewarded - in their style.
Playing music is not a cake walk - sometimes fisticuffs ensue.
Get over it.
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by Toppish
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
thank goodness for the punters. I know it isn't my mates who are keeping the establishment funded.
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by feardearg
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
I've taken part in many a session over the year in Ireland, the US and the UK.
The best sessions have been noisy to say the least - but, there are always one or two musicians who are so far up themselves that they expect total silence when they play. We usually managed to get rid of 'em in the end.
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by Dennis Regan
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
you should be playing music and forgeting about the rest of the listeners if they bother you
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by Máirtín Quigley
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
Yes, it's quite simple, Mairtin. It's meant to be fun - a lot of people forget that. When the "session" becomes so serious that it becomes the end in itself it's time to find another way of expressing yourself other than playing music.
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by Dennis Regan
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
Every session is different. At one I frequented the room was so small that you couldn't be in there unless you were there for the music, go to the big room next door and the crowds could and would be so loud that It could easily become nearly impossible to play and hear yourself, same pub, different room. Acoustic spaces can have a huge effect on the volume and for want of a better word, Vibe.
get back to the tunes!
Also how well everyone is in tune is an oft forgotten point, the better everyone is in tune the louder and clearer and more cohesive the sound is. People are attracted towards dynamic, harmonious playing, and repulsed by the opposite.
If the crowd starts to get too boisterous a loud and powerful singer can draw attention back to the music if it has slipped for some reason or other, then,as long as you can shut the singer up
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
Well said Dennis I vote for fun everytime. I have been to sessions in France for example where they are so intence no one smiles you wonder why they play music?
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
Do what 99% of trad musicians do when playing in public. Keep looking at the ground or at your instrument. Keep your eyes tightly closed when playing, in the hope that the audience may go away, and who knows...they may well do.
Lastly if asked a question by a member of the audience about the tune, or complimented on your playing, just look embarrassed..give your head a toss and say the following sentence..'Ah Shure'.... Don't forget now...Ah Shure...!
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by Free Reed
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
This guy "lost it " is taking the pi** out of the lot of you. He is the guy who recently posted the question about how your bowel movements vary when playing ITM.Needless to say it was quickly deleted.He is up to his pi** taking antics again !!
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by Red Robin
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
Maybe so, but that can still lead to informative interesting discussion maybe completely of tangent, but still fun. Sounds like a reasonable question to me. An issue many of us face playing in public spaces.
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
One man's ass-ache is another man's customer.
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by Steve L
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
Well said Dennis and Máirtín, well said indeed!
To me the answer to the question asked is simple; "Wherever you wish to!".
If the din is too much where you are playing, play elsewhere. Ah, but says you; "One or two of us are being payed to be here". Then says I; "Steady up and get on with your task".
Simple really, isn't it?
All the best!
Peace,
Ed
Remember not much of life can be completely scripted to one's preferences if one lives amongst others.
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by ejsant
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
When they're restless dogs, children or fleas.
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
On the floor (obviously), between the musicians and said "non-playing session attendees", at a distance of at least three feet from the nearest musician. And if a 12-volt DC cattle wire can be rigged up along that line, all the better.
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by lazyhound
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
So long as no one is having a loud conversation in my ear while I'm trying to play so I can't hear a thing, or worse, trying to talk to me while I am playing, or being creepy and groping, having punters around a pub atmosphere is good craic.
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
Don't crowd us.
Hands off our axes, and we mean it.
We won't drown out the conversation, and you don't drown out the music.
Got a song? Good for you, you can keep it till asked.
We are not being paid to entertain - any requests, let alone demands, made may be countered by some rather poetic requests of our own.
Such as "On your way out..."
The landlord is the final authority -if he/she is worth his/her salt, everyone can have a good time and get along in this PUBLIC house.
Everyone.
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by Rook
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
Well said...
I don't care about people being noisy as long as they're sober. And no, I don't play any Swiss tunes, but thanks for asking...
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by scordion
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
Sessions to most establishments = instant atmosphere. So snubbing the punter's isn't really cool, but if someones noisily talking (of which I am sometimes guilty) and raised eyebrow or even a glare, or a "shut up an play" works well. If the non musicians are holding up too much of the audible space (I need to be able to hear others well in a session because of the vast variations in simple tunes, I try to match whatever they are doing to keep it sounding nice), well then I just walk away. It hurts my head when there's a train wreck, so I just get out of there.
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by SandyBottoms
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
and more about it... I leave ... after expressing my disdain... passive aggressive nature I guess. Speaking of train wrecks, they have othere causes such as loud noodlers, or just everyone hammering away at their own version of the tune oblivious to the group, bodhrans gone tribal you name it. It's worth maybe a couple of attempts to correct the direction, but still usually I just opt out. If the atmosphere is good and generating sales for the establishment, I'd rather go share my bad vibes.
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by SandyBottoms
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
when will I ever learn to effectively proof read my comments?
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by SandyBottoms
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
In our session at The York pub, Broomhill, Sheffield the non-players are an essential part of the crack. We don't consider them listeners or audience but welcome all as long as they understand the 'etiquette' At the moment we can all get in , about 30 people I reckon
We're lucky as we have a 'snug' but there's not a door anymore and regulars and other customers become involved
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by Michael Sam Wild
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
I think it's good when players and punters inhabit adjacent and parallel universes, the music being of the right loudness to disinhibit the talkers and the talk being of the right loudness to disinhibit the players. And when some good playing occasions a general hush, it means the music has earned this.
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
I like to make a comparison with a group of people telling jokes. You do it to entertain yourselves, but if other people want to listen, or even join in, then let them. If they don't know any decent jokes it is easy to shut them up. But the ones telling jokes wouldn't expect everyone else in the room to keep quiet.
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by gam
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
sometimes I am a non-player, but I still listen.
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by Random_notes
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
A little off-topic, but something slightly disconcerting happened at our Tuesday session this week. As some of you may know, we start this session in the Naval Volunteer in the heart of Bristol on the dot at 8.30*. The pub was reasonably busy with perhaps 30-40 people at the bar and tables. At 8.25 I took my fiddle out of its case and started tuning up. Immediately, the pub virtually emptied, a steady stream of people marching past us to the exit.
The last in the stream, a guy with a clipboard, stopped and apologised for not staying to listen to our music, but their coach had just arrived for the 8.30 pickup. Apparently, according to this tour guide, the coach tour was trying to find pub venues where there was live folk music; our pub would have been ideal but their scheduled timing wasn't quite right on this occasion.
It's not unusual, when we start the session for one or two punters to swiftly down their drinks and depart, but they're more than made up for by people passing outside who hear the music and then come inside to listen and drink. The landlord knew what he was doing when he located us by the windows overlooking the street.
* In fact, Greenwich Observatory is believed to synchronise its beeps with the start of the Tuesday session at the Volunteer - but have a sufficiency of good West Country ale in that pub and you'll be ready to believe anything.
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by lazyhound
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
We locate as for from the door as possible ... specifically so as not to be interupted by whoever goes in or out.
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
Nice story lazy.
Well, I must be one of the electrons (or is it positrons? whatever...) which tunnels between the parallel universes. Not only do I like having a bit of a chat with the non-players, they come over to me and the other sessioneers and have some banter. Also, there is an endless stream of local friends and neighbours so it would be extremely rude not to have a brief chat or at least acknowledge their presence. However I did have a run-in with a very loud Donegal man the other night, but maybe that's best forgotten about.....and that was definitely not the order of the day...........
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by Nick Splease
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
If a session plays in a pub and no punters are there, does it make a noise?
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by Sugarfoot Jack
and iare the tunes t welcomed by the sound of one hand clapping ?
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by bazouki dave
and are the tunes welcomed by the sound of one hand clapping?
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Where do you draw the line with non-playing session attendees?
I remember Bart Simpson pooring tyipical scorn on that daft old chestnut. Try it yourself, it's easy. Hold up a hand, either one, and slap your fingers into your palm.
Like ... duh
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by llig leahcim