I take it you mean the cross-string jump from the g on the E-string to the G on the D-string? In addition to Nate's advice I'd add, practice jumps like this very slowly - which is why you need to quit your job
yep, day job, gotta go.... he he . Its a pipe tune, I often find pipe tunes dont transfer so well to the fiddle, playing both I often try. Generally I change down to D or G, but in this case try E mix, much easier to handle. IMO and more likely to fit in a session.
Stick to Amix WobblingFiddle, the chances of hearing it in any other key at a session is next to nil. Scottish fiddlers find transferring pipe tunes to the fiddle relatively straight forward, possibly through necessity. Stick at it.
Speaking as a piper and fiddler I take pipe tunes and play them on the fiddle a lot bogman, Its not a matter of can it be done, of course it can, but they often lose a certain something in translation .
Maybe tunes like that get played at Scottish pipe sessions but very unlikely to find it at an Irish session eh? Seeing as how WF lives in venice its possible the only time it will be played in a session is if he starts it, in which case it makes no odds what key its in.
Personally I find little in the tune that translates to fiddle, especially in Amix. In E mix its actually quite reasonable on the fiddle, not that it interests me at all.. Amix?! well whatever turns you on ...
Amix is the key it is written in and played in. If it gets played in Ireland that would be the case too. Amix is the ideal key for whistle or flute whereas Emix is possible but awkward for the flute and very awkward on the whistle. Changing the key of that tune would be madness unless you are playing it alone on the fiddle or with other fiddlers who for some strange reason learnt the tune in the wrong key.
Wrong key? not at all, just different key. your not trying to tell me that tunes are only to be played in 'the right ' key are you! Where would that leave the highland pipers playing the Masons apron? wrong? or Irish pipers playing Miss Mcleods. What about A440 pipes? or a D set of small pipes? or a C set? Bb Uilleann pipes....
Or whistlers with a C A, G, Bb whistle.... East clare fiddlers playing in Gm, F Bb, etc etc etc.
Same old Ionannas. Offering very poor advice then sticking to it like glue.
For sessions Highland pipers play A border or smallpipes - not D. D sets are next to useless for sessions.
Flat sets are a different case altogether and nor relevent to this discussion. Who plays other than a D whistle other than out of necessity at a session?
Anyway, I'm off out. WobblingFiddle - don't be fooled. Amix is the best key for that tune, you are highly unlikely to hear it in any other key unless there is a bonkers sect in E. Clare, but don't count on it.
Scotland, Boston, Dublin, at least one in Miltown Malbay.... undoubtedly other places but those are the ones where I have heard it or know through mates where it's played. And no, I didn't start it as I am utter pish at that tune and would never, ever start it.
I love playing this tune on the fiddle and it does get played at our (albeit scottish-ish) session fairly regularly. I do all single bowings for those first couple bars and really try to punch out those top notes, so that I get a bit of the groove syncopation going and don't end up nailing all the notes with equal emphasis. And I second the advice about practicing very slowly. Good luck!
Maybe it's just me--but I just experimented with it (can't say I like the tune enough to learn the whole thing) and I think you could use some slurs in the opening bars. All those single bows and string crossings seem to be too much work, to me.
Keep third finger planted on the D string, rock the bow up to the open A string and then the high g note, change bow direction at the top (which tends to mute the A string when you go back down) and so on. Emphasize the descending line of high notes (g, f#, e, e, e) and let the low notes fall naturally into place.
It feels a bit awkward and sloppy at first, but I think that with a lot of practice, you could play it faster (and easier) that way eventually. It also lets the open A and E strings ring more, for an interesting effect.
I'm not saying it's the "correct" way to play it, just an interesting possibility.
Don't even try it. I've also learnt it on both instruments (whistle and fiddle), and it sits really well on whistle - and I guess also Highland pipes, which it was written for - but terribly on fiddle. The string-crossing at the beginning is just so awkward it's not even worth attempting to play fluently.
My advice is to learn it on the flute or whistle, or, of course, the Highland pipes! But if it's definitely going to be fiddle, I'd just skip the string-crossing, and go: GAgA AfAA | eAAe AAeA etc.
riada's suggestion is very similar to mine, same fingering, but still in Amix. much more approachable than the vsn written in the sesh data base IMO [ of which Dows setting is much clearer]~
There is a way of moving the bow from the g on the E-string to the G on the D-string without losing contact with the strings and without vibrating the A. Basically, you momentarily pivot the bow on the A-string during the transition from the E-string to the D-string, without moving the A (which would cause it to vibrate). Needless to say, this (classical) technique requires a lot of careful slow practice, but when acquired it gives a magical noise-free fast jump across the strings while maintaining full string contact. I'd also add that you need a good teacher to guide you through this one.
Whether it's worth learning this technique (unless it's for classical playing) for it's relatively small occurrence in a small number of Irish pipe-derived tunes is very debatable. To my mind it's a more efficient use of the fiddler's time to devise a work-around (as Joe CSS and Picopanpipe have pointed out), just as a flute player would figure out a way of playing a fiddle tune that has notes below his range - and without changing the key.
Each to their own. I change the keys on most tunes I learn.
I ,like to have 2 different fingerings and to be adaptable. I play many standard D tunes in C as well. Em tunes in Dm etc. Recently trying going down 2 steps, so D tunes in Bb.
As you know lazy, once a tune is learnt in Em or E mix then the fingering is the same for A mix/m. just a string down.
Of course, if you really want to play it as written its just a matter of practice. Id bow 2 down 1 up on the E string.
As far as the key goes, well its originally in Bb mix, being as how its a GHB tune.
Sets of pipes are made to play with other session instruments. I myself have a set of small pipes in A and a set of GHB in A440 as well specifically to play in more sociable keys. The writing of pipe tunes in A is just a convention, most pipes are in Bb and sharper. I have a 7/8th fiddle tuned constantly a semi tone sharp to play in Eb and Bb mix so I can play along with the GHB easily.
Adapting tunes from different genres and instruments is a rewarding process but as in translating languages, 'poetic licence' is almost essential.
I remember seeing a scottish band once who had pipes and two fiddles. One of the fiddle players played with his fiddle tuned up a semitone, the other one played standard tuning with Bb fingering. It was just bloody stupid. And sounded crap.
Ionanass was talking about playing along with an instrument tuned in B-flat, the music for which by convention is written in A, making it a transposing instrument like a clarinet. If he's doing this a lot it's sensible to have a fiddle permanently tuned a semi tone sharp; he'll be playing in A on that fiddle but it comes out as B-flat. It's also a useful idea for playing along with some of Frankie Gavin's or Matt Cunningham's recordings, which are a semi tone sharp for various reasons.
There's no problem with tuning a fiddle up to play along with the pipes - but to transpose pipe tunes into keys other than A would certainly be antisocial if playing in a session situation.. I will take back that it's only Ionannas that does this, as I've encountered this once before in a session, where every pipe tune I heard had been transposed. I voted with my feet and have not returned to that particular session...
Also because its a 7/8th sized fiddle, it sits at F ,Bb,Eb, Ab. very well. I play D tunes in Bb major just for fun and to play with the odd Bb Uilleann piper. D tunes to play with a GHB are played in Eb.
I started playing in C because a box player friend of mine plays in C. but now I do it for the enjoyment. Tunes sound so different played in flat keys, and offer very different places for ornaments too.
It depends, Ron in Scotland that may well be the case. here however A tunes are often played in G to suit the uilleann pipes. I've not encountered Scots smallpipes here in sessions, unless I take my own of course!
Going down 2 steps may not be all that useful. Unless you use the heaviest gauge strings you can lay your hands on the tone won't sound too good, the strings will feel floppy, and there will be a tendency for the strings to climb up towards their original pitch. However, that tendency to sharpen probably wouldn't happen if you fit brand new heavy gauge strings that never get tuned up to their designated pitch.
I didnt mean tuning down 2 steps, just playing down 2 steps. I dont retune my fiddles[apart from the 7/8th] to play in C or Bb, I just transpose, the different fingering gives a fresh lease of life to an old tune!
Not a highjack, just pointing out that though its written in Amix its actually played in Bb mix on the instrument it was 'composed 'on.
No I wouldn't cut of my foot but I probably be carrying a heavy pack. SWFL after 25yrs of playing standards in standard keys Its nice to break out of the box and try something a little different. Though not so far out of the box as Gordon Duncan. perhaps! Personally I'm with Seamus on this one.
It's one thing transposing tunes for your own amusement but it's another offering that as advice.
As far as Bb goes, that is irrelevant. As you should know, GHB music is read by pipers in A (though no sharps are shown) and they think round the A scale. Fiddlers tune up a semi tone and play in A and related keys when playing with GHB. The tune, as in all GHB tunes, should be treated by players of other instruments as A.
I suggested playing it a more manageable fingering/key, were you a fiddler you would have some understanding of why.The fingering I suggested, by shifting down a string, would provide the tune in A mix. Were you a fiddler you would have realised that.
"I often find pipe tunes dont transfer so well to the fiddle, playing both I often try. Generally I change down to D or G, but in this case try E mix, much easier to handle. IMO and more likely to fit in a session."
Absolutely, the fiddle is then playing in Emix . With the sharpened G, it could be quite interesting, bit like The Bear Island reel which starts in E mix.
A simple matter to shift over and play in A mix, or shift up and play in B mix. I guess it would come out as a Dmix tune for the Uilleann pipes as I transpose all my D mix Irish tunes to A mix on the Pipes.
I haven't read all this stuff, but from a mandolin/banjo plucker's point of view, (which should work on the fiddle ...?) for the first phrases of PfT, you can anchor your index finger on G on the D string, and leave it there while you play the A on the D string with your second finger and pick out the high g, f#, e with your little and 3rd fingers on the A string.
That gives a bit more sharpness when playing with fiddles or boxes, although cross-picking in the first position can sound nice in other contexts.
Even if you can't play along with it because of the key, it's well worth casting all the frantic fiddle versions out of your head for a while and listening to GD's own recording of it.
the main sounds you can hear on his recording are pipes, banjo and percussion, then a whistley thing. Not fiddles.
Works well in that ensemble arrangement, but as a fiddle-only tune, it's a bit of a pig
Pretty straight forward fingering Bren,. but being as how its 3rd position, not sure thats allowed you know
Still same fingering I suggested of course, but in 3rd position .
While changing the key might be the easiest and most practical fix, this kind of issue can be solved by learning to play in more than just first position. Learn at least up to third or even fifth. It can come in handy. Then you don't have to jump so far.
There's a problem with fiddle players playing in positions other than first. They don't practice it.
Of course, you could say that they should practice it. But that kind of misses the point of what defines the difference between a fiddle player and a violin player. A fiddle player plays the fiddle repertoire, and that repertoire doesn't have much above the B with your pinky on the E string.
So when they/I do go up the dusty bit, it's out of tune.
So should they/I practice it to get it right? Why, when 99.9% of the repertoire doesn't require it?
Llig, times are changing. There are more fiddle players around now, particularly in the younger generation, who have had classical violin training and would therefore consider going up the fingerboard to make an awkward bit (such as in this tune) a little easier. In the relatively short time I've been playing the fiddle I think I've become aware of these changes.
The Influence of Scots fiddlers certainly has to be considered in the music of say Johny Doherty with more virtuostic dalliances up in the positions. Its really down to personal/regional style.
Here we are actually discussing a piece of modern music composed by a Highland piper. Its not trad and its not Irish so there is no reason why a fiddler playing in should feel constrained by any particular stylistic conventions.
"A fiddle player plays tunes, and simply gets better at playing tunes" - true, but it is special pleading. The fact that a fiddle player plays tunes and gets better at playing them (which is to be expected) does not prevent that fiddle player from also playing the violin in an orchestra and thereby getting better at playing classical music.
There are just as many fiddle players as ever, probably even more. It's just that more of them today have learnt classical (school orchestras for instance), perhaps alongside Irish fiddle, or perhaps before taking up the fiddle, and may continue to play in both genres. Even if they no longer play classical they still have their classical techniques available in the locker, as it were, for use if the occasion arises. Techniques, once learnt, are never lost.
... and spectacularly missing the point ... yet again ...
You don't need the positions. They won't make you a better fiddle player. I've never come across a fiddle player who was better for the ability to play up the dusty bit, though I do know some who do it very well. The vastly more common scenario is that fiddle players play very poorly up the dusty bit and their attempts make them much worse fiddle players.
Where does the contradiction reel for example fit into your narrow [minded?] view of fiddlers and fiddle tunes? Should we not attempt to play it ? or transpose to a more 1st position friendly key?
The contradiction reel is a classic example of the bloody racket otherwise perfectly good fiddle players make when they attempt the dusty bit. It's so ubiquitous that playing the high part of that tune out of tune on a fiddle has become a stylistic convention all of its own.
So the remedy is.... dont try the contradiction reel? or, dare I say it, practice it lots till it sounds in tune?!
Why not even practice the positions? you never know when they might come in handy eh? or would that be too radical eh? you know, actually exploring what the instrument is capable of... nah better not eh? 'fiddlers' dont do that kind of shtuff eh? gotta conform to the stylistic conventions eh? follow the rules[ even if they dont even exist in reality, as evidenced by Johnny Doherty.] Whatever next eh? scales and shtuff like that wot aint rite for fiddlers to do... !
Some people like effort for the sake of it. I know you do.
To play in tune up the dusty bit takes as much playing time up the dusty bit as all your playing time in first position. If all you want to do is play diddley tunes, it's a waste of time. You'd be a better fiddle player all round if you spent your time playing fiddle tunes instead of practicing where 99.9% of the music doesn't go.
Just like scales and stuff. If all you want to do is play diddley tunes, scales are a waste of time. Scales are just crap tunes. Why waste your time playing crap tunes.
What? Ioannas, you are telling Michael, "Why not even practice the positions? you never know when they might come in handy eh? or would that be too radical eh? you know, actually exploring what the instrument is capable of... nah better not eh? 'fiddlers' dont do that kind of shtuff eh? gotta conform to the stylistic conventions eh? follow the rules."
But a couple posts ago you told Alistair, "Wouldn't know, NCFA, which conventions are they [Scottish]? and anyhow Id say tha they wouldn't apply to an Irish session, and vice versa."
So what point are you even trying to make here? On one hand you seem to think Irish sessions should conform to certain "stylistic conventions" and then you say that they shouldn't and fiddlers should explore the instrument a bit more (hmmm.... maybe by learning Pressed for Time in the proper key?). Other than just contradicting yourself, I don't see where you are going.
I am perfectly happy with the idea of musicians exploring their instrument to expand their potential on it. I am quite envious of the guitarists who are comfortable playing traditional music, jazz, blues and rock, playing lead, melody and accompaniment or rhythm. I do not have such a broad range of styles.
If fiddlers want to learn to play "up the dusty bits" then that is great. Full credit to them. To suggest that because a tune is not Irish that no respect needs to be given to how it should be played is preposterous. If you want a Scottish tune to sound authentic then learn some Scottish ornaments and stylistic phrases. If you want it to sound Irish then play it as if it was an Irish tune. To think you can just drop any attempt at traditionality just because you are playing a Scottish tune in Ireland is ridiculous. It makes the tune neither Scottish or Irish. It would destroy the tune.
If you want to play a tune like Pressed for Time in a different key that is fine. Go for it. Don't expect folk to be able to join in with you in a session however because everyone else would have learnt it in the proper key. If you are just changing the key to make it easier to play then that is just lazy, pure and simple.
Ionannas - I thought you played Scottish pipes. If you really do then you wouldn't need me to explain Scottish music to you. You must have learnt it in your formative years of learning to play the instruments.
Emily - are you really saying that Ionannas wants Irish music to conform to certain stylistic conventions and to sound authentically Irish? If you are then I am afraid I can't agree with you.
I make Scottish tunes sound Irish all the time, can't help it. And there's a long tradition of Irish musicians taking tunes from all over the place and making them sound Irish.
And if you want to learn to play up the dusty bit then that is great. Full credit to you. Just remember though, It won't help your fiddle playing. And it won't sound Irish.
There is a use sometimes though to change the key of a tune and that is to be sociable. Tommy Peoples wrote Black Pat's in F and it's much better in that key on the fiddle. But I'm more than happy to play it in G with a flute. And I'll play it in C or D fiddle fingering on my viola, so it comes out in F or G, depending on the company
SS I think I am pointing out that these 'stylistic convention' exist only in the minds of some people. They can not be applied universally and to suggest they can is frankly ludicrous! I didnt think my tongue in cheek comments could actually be taken seriously!
>>To suggest that because a tune is not Irish that no respect needs to be given to how it should be played is preposterous.<<<
Hmm I never said anything that could even be remotely construed to mean that.
My point was that how could a modern Scottish tune be confined by regional stylistic concerns! especially one of GD's who managed to decimate the conventions of his Instrument almost single handedly! Its laughable, that small minded people should attempt to dictate to anyone how a tune like this 'should' be played. In a certain key its right, in another its 'wrong'! Its ok in first position but not in third! A Gordon Duncan tune FCS!
Llig, you say you make even Scottish music sound Irish, perhaps you'd leave that to others to judge? from what Ive heard Id have to disagree, didn't sound remotely Irish.
As far as Jonny Doherty 'not sounding Irish' well I think that comment says a lot about your concepts of Irish music and little about the playing of a fine fiddler who happened to explore 'the dusty bits', and no llig you are completely mistaken, I have absolutely no interest in' goading you' .
The fact is I simply express myself and my viewpoint. Feel free to disagree that way we get healthy debate that can shed light on various issues and perhaps help others on their way .
How about bowing? The thread was supposed to be about bowing, and instead, you've gone off on one your mighty rants about GHB and changes of key, not to mention playing in classical music positions.
All for the sake of what? Is changing tunes into non-Irish keys (pipes, flutes and whistles) assisting someone's cross-bowing technique, or is it simply serving your ego to continually post about yourself? Rhetorical question, obviously.
Just in case any poor soul has waded through this nonsense, here is some actual advice as it pertains to the topic of the thread:
".....Its not trad and its not Irish so there is no reason why a fiddler should feel constrained by any particular stylistic conventions."
You seem to suggest because it is not an old Irish tune that it does not matter how you play the tune. In fact you don't suggest it. You say it.
I would argue that just because a tune is a recent composition doesn't mean you don't need to observe standards when playing the tune. If anything, given that the tune has not gone through centuries of morphing and changing by the aural tradition there are even less reasons for not trying to play the tune properly.
Gordon Duncan was very good at pushing the envelope for what gets played on the Pipes and, in particular, the idea of playing notes not normally in the scale through half-holing and so forth. He also played lots of tunes from the Irish and Breton traditions on the pipes. I would argue however that whatever he did he still sounded like a Piper and a highly skilled one at that. His ornamentation and his approach to the music came from a lifetime of devoted study to his instrument. He didn't take short cuts and he didn't have a laissez-faire notion of playing the music. You on the other hand do seem to take this approach.
If you want to learn how to play a Gordon Duncan tune properly listen to how Gordon Duncan played it. Obvious really.
Hang on, why is anyone talking about playing in 3rd position on Pressed for Time? It is a pipe tune. Does it even have the musical range to require playing in anything other than first position?
Someone above suggested that if you play that part of the tune with the difficult bow jump with a different left hand possition, then there wouldn't be a difficult bow jump.
Kind of like suggesting to someone who is about to hop over a puddle that if they turned right, walked a couple of block, took a left, and another left, then walk another couple of blocks, they'd be right there on the other side of the puddle and they wouldn't have had to jump over it.
Surely that would just mean you wouldn't be able to ornament the tune properly and you wouldn't get the nice sound of open strings? Ach, I am not a fiddler so I can't give advice on bowing technique. It seems to me however that it would probably be easier to fix the bowing than playing a run of notes elsewhere on the fiddle. I had presumed you were all talking about playing on the dusty bits of the E string. Silly me.
Someone suggested playing the phrase in 3rd position , which is how we got to the dusty bits!
How do you ornament a modern pipe tune properly on the fiddle NCFA? What exactly is a 'proper' ornament? In which regional style?
NCFA , most days I transfer GHB tunes to the fiddle and vice versa, I see no reason to restrict myself to specific keys, here in East Clare there isnt a big session scene playing modern Scots tunes anyhow.
If a tune sits or sounds easier in a different key then why not? Its not as If playing it in Emix precludes playing in Amix, fingering is the same. Of course if the OP wishes to play it in A mix, in the octave its written, in first position then the bowing is straightforward. That was sorted in the first couple of posts. I prefer to keep things simple . If I were to play it then I would stick to first position , play it in the low octave or in E mix.
"How do you ornament a modern pipe tune properly on the fiddle NCFA?"
Now Ionannas, you know I don't play the fiddle and if you forgot that then you could see in my last post that I said I don't play the fiddle. You are merely being awkward now. If you really want to know the answer to that question then ask a real fiddler. I am sure they would be happy to help you out.
".....Its not trad and its not Irish so there is no reason why a fiddler should feel constrained by any particular stylistic conventions."
Thats my opinion. If you have some particular Scottish stylistic conventions you think ought to be taken into account, fair enough. I asked you what they were. Are they piping conventions? or fiddle conventions>? and do you think Irish sessions should follow these conventions? Should Irish tunes played on the pipes follow Irish conventions? or GHB conventions? should GHB tunes played on fiddle in Irish sessions follow GHB conventions? Scottish fiddle conventions or Irish conventions? etc etc or can we just play the tunes how we feel like and to hell with all these conventions? or perhaps to hell with just some of them? Jeez its a minefield with all these rules, thank feck I never read the rule book before I started playing trad ! Id probably sweat at night thinking and worrying whether Im following the right conventions for any particular tune or not
It doesn't matter what set of "conventions" you follow as long as you are consistant within the tune. I suppose it depends how you want it to sound. If you want it to sound close to how it is "meant" to be played then listen to Gordon Duncan. If you want it to sound Irish then fine.
There is no point discussing all this with you anyway as you do not believe in ornamentation. I seem to remember you saying it was imported into Irish music from baroque music and is not traditional. I can't argue against that. I would be wasting my breath.
Besides, as you have pointed out the thread was about bowing technique for one particular part of one tune. I will leave that up to the fiddlers to advise on.
The only reason this whole argument started was because you advised learning the tune in E mix. For you sitting in your house in Clare playing by yourself that is fine but for someone starting out on the fiddle and wanting to fit into sessions (as is the case with many who read this website) that is distinctly bad advice.
<<that is distinctly bad advice.>> No its not NCFA, you dont play the fiddle so how on earth do feel competent to tell me what is good and bad fiddle advice.? If you were a fiddler youd know that by shifting a string the same fingering in Emix becomes Amix. but your not a fiddler and you dont have a clue do you?
Secondly I have never said Im not into ornamenting, I ornament and vary my tunes when and where it feels appropriate .
The fact that Irish music stems far beyond the Baroque period and that it is even today played ornamented by dynamic and powerful well respected trad musicians from Ireland is hardly debatable is it? How can you argue with facts?
I may not be a fiddler but I am still aware of the changing keys when you shift strings. It is also the same on the mandolin and tenor guitar and any string instruments tuned that way. It is also not that far from playing DADGAD guitar in that you can move the chord shape up or down strings and it changes the key.
My point has nothing to do with fiddling however. It makes no difference what instrument you are playing the tune on. If you want to play with other musicians you are best off learning it in the key it was written in and is most likely to be played in.
I am not telling you what is good or bad fiddle advice. I specifically said I do not play the fiddle and I am in no position to advise on technical fiddle matters. I do however have ears, I do play this music and I have some common sense and I am am able to advise like anyone else on here on general matters of the music. I can also spot really bad advice from a mile off.
The other contributors on this thread who have argued against changing the key also know what they are talking about, some of them a lot more than me. It just appears however that they have decided, sensibly, to back away from this argument with you when I have blustered on. I have no wish to be banned from this site. Jeremy has had no cause to do it up to now and I am not about to give him cause now.
This will be my last comment on this thread. You can continue to argue with yourself if you want.
Ali, as my mind reading skills are not very good, I don't know what Ionannas thinks. I was pointing out that he is just contradicting himself and not making a lot of sense by implying Irish music should follow certain conventions in some posts and then saying for a tune like Pressed for Time, "conventions" can be thrown out the window. And going on about playing in third position, which is rarely used for the vast majority of Irish tunes.
Anyway, if you want to play Pressed for Time in Emix, fair play to it if it makes you happy. But if you went out to a session where people know the tune and you played it in Emix, everyone would go, "Huh?"
If the OP wants to be sociable at a session, they'd best learn the tune in Amix.
Of course, not changing the key of a tune for any other reason than to be more sociable is a traditional music stylistic convention. And and that's good advice.
I however will continue this "healthy debate" until Jig and I are both banned ... again ..... As a public service to the rest of you.
<<implying Irish music should follow certain conventions>> Where ? I dont know where you get that from SS, could you cut and paste?
yes third position is rare in ITM, and? I dont actually know if the contradiction is an Irish or Scottish tune?
Anyhow here we are not talking about Irish music, but Scottish music, Scottish fiddling does not operate under the same constraints as the ITM does it? The positions are essential in a huge selection of traditional Scottish tunes.
Why should a fiddler playing a modern GHB tune operate under Irish conventions, unless they so choose?
As far as playing in Emix or mix, they use exactly the same fingering just a string down, were you a fiddler I wouldnt have to point that out again!
Wow, I just logged on after that simple last post on perhaps "crawling" up the string to avoid a nasty bow change. I'm surprised out how much that simple piece of advice got everything going in a rant direction. I RARELY use positions other than first when playing fiddle, though I have used third in conjunction with first when I play Scottish pipe tunes in the piper's original key. I don't think it's that big of a deal, honestly. Some of the best fiddlers I've seen use positions and they aren't classically taught in the slightest. And they don't use it to make the music sound "classical" either. Strange how anything remotely taken from ANY kind of training on this site stirs the pot. Sometimes I think some people are just prejudiced to be cantakerous, against anything that they don't personally do. It's just silly. Enjoy yourself and the music. It isn't a popularity contest on who is the most "proper".. wtf does that mean anyway, "proper", when there are so many regional variances. Proper is a relative term.
It's not Irish conventions, it's session etiquette conventions, which include not playing tunes in bizarre keys that no one else plays them in. No one cares if you play Pressed for Time in Emix or any other key, but if you are advising someone else to do so as a way of avoiding a difficult string crossing, it should come with the HUGE caveat that virtually no one they will encounter at any session will play the tune in that key. If they want to play the thing at a session, best learn it in the standard key.
Loads of fiddlers play Pressed for Time very well, so there's no shortage good advice out there for how to play it. No need to reinvent the wheel here. Or as someone else in this thread said, no need go round the block to avoid the puddle and end up in the wrong part of town when you could have just hopped over it.
I think we have all encountered musos in our travels who are tools, basically, and will go to a session and play lots of common tunes in weird keys. Don't be that guy.
Jeez SS its almost the same on the fiddle! Emix and A mix use the same fingering one string differently.
As far as playing it at the speed its played at! on the fiddle? well could you suggest a recording I could listen to? or one of these fiddlers here perhaps could demonstrate? not in Bbmix even, just in the session version Amix.in the high octave....
As far as session etiquette goes, that depends on the session doesnt it?go to a C session you wouldnt expect to play your D whistle, same with an Eb sess, and a Bb sesh. yes most sessions world wide are in D, thank god not all of them!
<<think we have all encountered musos in our travels who are tools, basically, and will go to a session and play lots of common tunes in weird keys. Don't be that guy.>>
Look at this guy, poor fellow, sat alone in his bathroom, playing on his own cos no one wants to play in C. No wonder he plays the slow air so well, must be really miserable....
Here is a youtube clip of Charlie McKerron, Tim Edey, Bo JIngham, and Marc Clement playing it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qx2mjjMINwg. Watch Charlie's bowing when he starts the tune at about 2:49.
Here is a video of some fellas at the fleadh playing it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzNWWOKUyoM The video quality is rubbish but they're good musicians. In Ireland!
As far as Bb or C or Eb sessions go, so what? Sessions tuned down or up has nothing to do with what key you should learn this tune in. If you were to show up at a Bb session with your Bb whistle (or your fiddle tuned down to Bb) and played this using Emix fingering, it would still confuse your session mates.
Thanks for the links.
You , confused me! what do you mean tuned down to Bb? which string goes to Bb? normally you'd tune up a semi tone.... or do you really mean tuned down? the G down 1 1./2 tones.... never done that. I dont generally retune my fiddle, I just play in different keys. In standard tuning If you use the fingering I suggested, you can play it in E mix, A mix and B mix just shifting strings.
I do have a special Eb 7/8th fiddle, but only for special occasions.
To play easily in Emix youd need an A whistle,D whistle gives you A mix etc
At least one link appear to play a modified fiddle version, not what is written here. They simply remove most of the tricky bits . and its played at a nice steady pace, not like the whistlers linked earlier . That low G stands out strongly when it happens.
The other link its not so clear who is playing what, but its a mighty set that, Charlie McKerron and Friends.
The rough one was just a visual/Aural blur.
Don't know how you do it when you play a C or B or whatever session (if you play them), but fiddlers I know who play with uilleann pipers on C or B or whatever sets tune their fiddle down to the key in question. I don't know anyone who would relearn a D tune say, in B, so they can play with a piper who has a B set. They'd just readjust their strings. To a lower note, not higher, as a B chanter is pitched considerably lower than a concert pitch one. I haven't clue what notes fiddlers tune the strings to but I am sure one of the fiddlers on this site knows.
The fiddlers I know here in Scotland who play with a lot of GHB players tune their fiddles *up* a semi-tone, as the GHB is pitched higher than A440. They don't bother relearning tunes in Bb.
I keep a special 7/8th sized fiddle tuned up a semitone, but to play D tunes in C I simply transpose down a tone. Excellent mind training and great fun. I play The masons Apron for example in F, G and A. without retuning the fiddle which , with gut strings, is a pain anyhow. Em jigs like the Monaghan in Dm...[as well as Em of course] great altogether. Drops of Brandy in F G and A, etc etc etc It offers loads of different ways to phrase and ornament a tune. lots of drones sometimes, playing D tunes in C means they are the same fingering for G too.
I can transpose all the tunes I play into any key at will. I can play them all in at least three different positions too, but I find the crap comes out best when I'm squatting.
I think there's a straight forward bit of basics that not been mentioned yet ...
I absolutely adore Gordon Duncan playing this tune. It's so remarkable, so inventive, so jaw-dropingly brilliant. It so magically explodes what the GHB can be, It so magically shows the genius of Gordan Duncan.
However, It's crap on the fiddle. Awkward and stupid. And Fluke's version on the whistle is crap too, those stupid tongue triplets instead of the pipe's amazing burls and stuff.
A good example of a tune that lives in two keys, G or A, is Maggie in the Woods. In most sessions it's in G, but nobody moans if it's in A. When we play it as the last figure of the Connemara set dance we start it in G and for the last time through, when the dancers speed up, crank it up to A.
Same with the 2 tunes I mentioned, they are Played in G on the Uilleann pipes while fiddlers prefer them in A . I also play a variant of the Fox-hunters with the 2nd part up in D, all the rest in A [as well as the standard vsns in G and A.}
Think out of the box.
<<.they are Played in G on the Uilleann pipes,.>>..Unless they play a C set of course , in which case its in F. Now thats a lovely key for the foxhunters! great fun.
I really liked the way those two lassies played the tune.
The thing is; on pipes there is only 2 possibilities, note on, note off, all through the 9 notes on the instrument.The fiddle is completely different you can easily have 3 or 4 notes resonating at different volumes at the same time by using open strings and fast string crossing, as on this tune. You end up with the A and low G going constantly, creating an A7 chord beneath the top line 'walking down' so to speak. So in a way you are getting a nice approximation of the drone effect from the GHB, where the minor7th chord is created by the low G sitting between the Bass A and 2 tenor A's.
Try Down, Down,up, all the way through that first phrase, Timing has to be sharp for to keep the Syncopated rhythm together. So try to avoid hitting the A on the way back which will take time off the repeating low G ending up with phase shift, where the up beat becomes the down beat over a long phrase.
To have much hope of playing with a piper you'd be wise to practice with a metronome slowly, because the metronome is pretty much universally considered an essential tool in the GHB pipe world. The rhythmic complexity of good Highland piping is of an order above any other musical form I've encountered. Not IMO better as a value judgement, because rhythmic complexity is not by its very nature any 'better', just different.
A highland pipers fingers are beating complex rhythmical patterns in a very small amount of time. This is reflected in good Snare drumming where the bounce of stick on skin amplified by finger techniques can also actually match these patterns note for note.
I know I said I wouldn't comment on this thread again but perhaps this will help with the original question of bowing better than anything else that can be offered. It is the third tune in the set:
Seems to miss out a lot of the tricky low G's like picopanpipe suggested. Seems to miss the first mid A lengthening the low G then jumping to the high G.
I suppose if thats the kind of thing you like then these short cuts allow you to approximate the tune, enough to get by , stick a few scales in and some slides and your away. Definitely not the kind of fiddling I'm interested in.
Most people do not realise how far 'Scottish folk Fiddling' has been influenced by classical music.As it exists today it is an 18thC creation developed by educated musicians most of whom were at home in Classical music culture.
This quote here creates 2 false categories;
>> A violin player will practice technique so that they can handle what a piece of music throws at them.
A fiddle player plays tunes, and simply gets better at playing tunes.<<
When the reality is there is a broad continuum that stretches between fiddler and violinist.
Fiddlers are quite free to practice any techniques they choose and to play whatever music they might fancy.
Being as how Scottish fiddle music [ I dont include Shetland in this broad generalisation, which of course it is ] has been so influenced by classical music, learning classical techniques to facilitate the playing of Scottish tunes on the fiddle seems to be traditional.
Ionannas - "To have much hope of playing with a piper you'd be wise to practice with a metronome slowly, because the metronome is pretty much universally considered an essential tool in the GHB pipe world. "
Essential tool? Yet again, utter rubbish. I've never heard of a piper practicing with a metronome.
Also, your comments on Scottish fiddle are also way of the mark. Almost or probably ALL Scottish fiddlers will play this tune in Amix in the normal trad position. You would have to go to one hell of a lot of sessions to ever see a Scottish fiddler doing any different, I certainly haven't. And I would be confident in saying you will NEVER see a Scottish fiddler playing it in Emix
You've never heard of a piper playing with a metronome!!!? Now that is surprising.
Heres a quote from a piper, not me I hasten to add.;
>>The metronome is a harsh mistress but ALL SERIOUS MUSICIANS use them religiously.<<
Jim McGillivray>> I've always encouraged people to sing to the metronome. When I was competing, a couple of times a week I would pick up my trusty Taktel metronome and sing all my competitive material to it. I would double-time the marches (72 beats per minute became 144) and reels (88 beats per minute became 176). It would take me about half an hour to get through everything. The next day when I took my pipes out I played more rhythmically and with a better feel for what was happening on the beats and offbeats. I think this work made be a much more rhythmical player than I was naturally.>>
Now from a drummer[pat Methany group]
>>I'm a big advocate of practicing with a metronome to develop even and consistent time. >>
Whats this guy using on the line then? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sooAwHewSUc
>>Use a metronome to gradually increase your tempo<<practicing with a metronome helps reveal the passages in the tune where you might be inclined to speed up or slow down>>
As far as the fiddle goes, you mistook my comment to refer to playing in 3rd position which is not at all uncommon for Scottish Fiddlers. What I was in fact referring to was the Classical techniques demonstrated in the video clips and used to play the tune in first position. The bowing techniques demonstrated are not found in any traditional Irish or Scottish music I have encountered. String crossing as demonstrated is however a typically used Classical technique. However if you'd like to link a traditional tune in its traditional key that does use this bowing Id be very interested.
I've no interest in isolated quotes from random pipers. Even less interest in drummer quotes. Using a metronome with the pipes is insanity. Subtle pulling and pushing of the rhythm is the only serious dynamic available to the pipes.
LOL Jori Chisholm, Jim McGillivray random pipers! Perhaps you might like to hear the results of their insanity, just you tube them. Oh dear, you really made me laugh there, get a grip. Two of the worlds greatest pipers are 'insane' !All the top world class, grade 1 pipe bands are insane!! And let me guess, you are not? You should get up there and show them all how its done eh ? Here you are, not even a fiddler making proclamations about fiddling. Now telling us that Internationally acclaimed pipers, the best in the world , are insane, whatever next.
Yes of course Bogman, thats it, Im the one spouting drivel. thanks for telling me. Only you were saying that these guys are insane for using metronomes and recommending them..... Hmmm...
Yes, you constantly fill this site with drivel. Almost every subject is ruined by your bizarre approach to trad. Just because some American and Canadian pipers use a metronome does not make it right, no matter how good they are. They are only some of a vast number of world class pipers. Certainly I have never seen metronomes used, and I know that those who I consider to be the best in the world do not use metronomes.
Was it not yourself who earlier this year argued for playing the pipes minus the ornaments? And promoted Pakistan made pipes.
....and they are? Gordon Walker? Willie MacCullum? Allan MacDonald? who? Roddy MacLeod?
I was neither promoting Pakistani pipes, just countering racist generalisations, not was arguing for playing the pipes without ornaments, simply repeating the advice of a highly respected Piper, 'if in doubt, leave them out'.
I do not have a bizarre approach to trad, on the contrary, I live in Ireland and play with some of the best Irish musicians in the world, we have a remarkably similar approach to music. Which is hardly surprising. Kevin Burke recommends you use a metronome.I suppose his advice, which mirrors mine, and Jims, is insane is it? No bogman, its not us .
....and they are? - none of your business. Of those you mention Allan would be my favourite. You argued the Burke case before and got bombed out. I will always listen to and consider the opinions of players of the quality of those you mention, but I will warn people of your advice as you have proved beyond doubt you are not qualified to give it.
. yeah right bogman , and you, who dont even play the fiddle give great fiddle advice...
So you cant actually suggest anyone who has gone on record stating they dont recomend a metronome. Grand. no surprise there .
Right I have had enough of this. Bogman may not play the fiddle but I would trust his fiddle advice sooner than I would trust yours Ionannas.
Leaving aside the fact that he has not offered any technical fiddle advice you do not necessarily need to be able to play a particular instrument in order to be able to offer general musical advice to players of it. All you need is a good musical mind. I, for example, would not dream of offering advice about bowing technique but I understand as well as anybody about changing keys by swapping strings and keeping the same fingerings.
I have met you Ionannas and it was lovely to do so. You struck me as a really nice and well meaning guy. On this forum however your attitude can be really poor and your advice, aside from being unusual, is wrapped up in hostility.
As I said you are a nice guy but Bogman is a musician of the first order and you are not. End of story.
But Ionannas plays the guitar (midi electric and acoustic nylon strung - at which he is the glue that holds sessions together), fiddle, at least two kinds of bagpipes, mandolin, banjo, fretless bass, drums, cello, 5-string viola (various sizes), whistle ... and he sings. And he doesn't just play Irish and Scottish music, but middle eastern music, classical and rock. Not to mention a lot of scales.
Surely such a seasoned all rounder who plays with some of the best musicians in the world could not be anything more than a wealth of useful information?
I could list my instruments as Guitar, Bouzouki, Tenor Guitar, Mandolin and Whistle(s) if I wanted to. But I dont. I used to play classical flute and I own a bodhran, didgeridoo, triangle and kazoo. I also play in sessions with some pretty incredible musicians but just playing with them does not guarantee me to be a wealth of useful information.
Yeah, but could you say that you are the glue that holds some of the best musicians in the world together? Surely that would guarantee you to be a wealth of useful information?
Bogman, what on earth has their nationality got to do with anything? Why even mention it? What possible relevance has their nationality to do with anything?
As far as No cause, well you are free to chose whosoever advice you want, you can follow mine, and Jim MacGilliivray, Kevin Burke, Jori Chisholm,etc etc or llig and Bogman, thats up to you. No skin of my nose .
I hasten to add that Bogman is in no way at the same level as Jim for example. Jim really is a musician of the first order no doubt about that whatsoever, if he says he advises using the metronome, then what conceit on my part would argue against it? none.
Jeez even bogmans drummer will use a metronome! Its completely standard procedure . Ahh but bogman is not interested in drummers advice.
Look the fact is that to play this tune on the fiddle requires techniques not found in traditional Irish music. Perhaps you might find it in Scottish fiddle music because it has been heavily influenced by Classical music. Its not a traditional tune. Its a modern Scotts tune, IMO It requires classical bowing techniques to even approach it as written.
Where you, or bogman fiddlers I might consider your comments as having validity. You are not, and to be honest, I dont. The fact that I assert my right to speak on this does not mean I am aggressive. In fact it was you, coming on her, telling me that I give bad advice that started our disagreement. talking about I might consider your opinion. What on earth are you even doing here? looking for trouble?
I am sorry but I know the drummer who plays with Bogman and there is no way he works to a metronome!
"Where (sic.) you, or bogman fiddlers I might consider your comments as having validity. You are not, and to be honest, I dont."
Were you a great musician I might consider your comments as having validity. You are not, and to be honest, I dont.
If Kevin Burke, Jim McGillivray or Jori Chisholm were to offer me advice then of course I would listen to them (unless it was advice on the key of a tune from the last 2 as, as pipers they don't have a clue! ). Even listening to Kevin Burke's advice though I would balance it against the advice I have heard from others as even the best musicians can have differing opinions, particularly on technique.
Having said that I can't think of any top traditional musicians that I know who use a metronome. It is possible that pipe bands might use them in order to check their tempo or for an adjudicator to check the tempo (I have no idea if they would though). Playing in a military style for pipe bands, etc however is not particularly traditional.
Nationality - ok - I wrote "Ionannas - "To have much hope of playing with a piper you'd be wise to practice with a metronome slowly, because the metronome is pretty much universally considered an essential tool in the GHB pipe world. "
Essential tool? Yet again, utter rubbish. I've never heard of a piper practicing with a metronome."
How would I know or care if the folk you mention use a metronome? They are the other side of the water. I am simply stating the fact that I haven't seen it used here so your statement, "because the metronome is pretty much universally considered an essential tool in the GHB pipe world. ", is not true.
You seem to have this naive notion that if you can find quotes from respected musicians to back your personal beliefs then it is cast in stone. Everyone else's opinions are invalid.
Re: drummers advice. What the hell would Pat Mathany's drummer know about playing pipe tunes on a fiddle? When playing traditional music I do not use a drummer so I am not interested in your assumptions.
Re: fiddle advice. The only advice I have offered on this thread is play it in Amix, play it in the normal position. That doesn't require me to play the fiddle.
Re: metronome. You made a sweeping statement on the instrument I play which was untrue. 'Insane' was maybe the wrong word but compared to your nonsense on this thread it's barely worth considering.
Again you've filled a thread with off topic dross meaning that if the OP doesn't see through you he/she will be worse of than when they started. Why do you do this?
Cross post there NCFA. And yes your right, the druumer I work with in my not so trad band does not work to a metronome or practice to a metronome. Though whatever jig\ionannas's assumption has to do with the thread I have no idea.
Can I just point out the bleedingly obvious here -- that Pressed for Time is a Scottish pipe tune, rather than a fiddle tune, so the classical influence you see in some Scottish fiddle tunes (i.e. some of those Skinner strathspeys) has feck all to do with that one.
SS, to play it as written, requires classical bow crossing techniques that are not found in traditional music that I know of, Including JSS tunes. However being as how I play Irish trad there could be....
Bogman ; I already pointed out that to play in Emix or A mix are different by only a string. The tune then becomes one any trad fiddler could play easily. While as its written it requires Classical bow crossing techniques.
It's a long thread. Anyway, clearly didn't take, as Ionannas asserted a couple posts ago that because the tune is a Scottish tune, you need classical violin techniques to play it.
BTW, the part of Scotland where Bogman lives has a long tradition of piping. It's hardly a backwater.
I know Skye a bit and once it is reputed to have been a centre of Piobaireachd Highland piping, but its certainly a backwater! unless you live there I suppose.A metronome would hardly be of use in Piobaireachd of course.
It might be hard for some to take but GHB spread across the world with the Highland Diaspora and In fact its does seem that places like Nova Scotia, cape Breton, were home to a much more traditional style up to the 20th C compared to the 'British Army style' unfortunately prevalent most places nowadays.
In my post of 2nd September above I gave an outline description of a technique for crossing from the E string to the D without sounding the intermediate string (the A) and maintaining bow contact with the string at all times.
The last point is critically important, for if the bow loses contact with the strings and goes in the air during its transition from the high string to the lower then the timing of its final contact with the lower string is going to be inaccurate (unless you're very, very good!), and the start of the sound on that lower string will not be as precise as it should be.
The advantage of learning this technique is that it gives more precise and tidier bowing. Bouncing the bow across the strings tends to make for ragged string crossings, which is no good for quick playing either solo or in ensemble.
I would not call this technique "classical" - it is an advanced bowing technique (just as fast triples also are, for example) that common to all genres of fiddle/violin playing, and is therefore worth learning at some time. Being able to do it cleanly means that you do not need to transpose to another key or to go up the fingerboard as a work-around to avoid "awkward" string crossings. As I said in my previous post, to learn this bowing technique you really need the person-to-person guidance of an experienced player to show you how - the written word on this occasion isn't quite enough, there's too much fine detail which will vary from player to player.
My thoughts on going up the finger-board in Irish fiddle playing. There is only a handful of tunes in Irish fiddle music that require the player to go higher than the high b on the E-string. The high c' should be reachable without moving from the first position, and the only other notes that require a shift are c#', d' and (rarely) e'. You need only to go into the 3rd or 4th position for these notes.
What is not attractive in Irish fiddle music, to my ear, is going up the finger-board on the A-string, perhaps as a work-around for the situation that is the main subject of this discussion. My reason for this is that the tone colour of the notes on the A-string above e is too far removed from the tone colour of the same notes on the E-string, a tone colour which is so characteristic of the Irish fiddle. This change in tone colour high up on the A is, I suspect, the real reason why it is derogatorily described as "classical", and not because there is a position shift involved. I would also suggest that the only time you use a fingered e on the A-string should be when you're doing a 4th finger cut on the A-string, or sometimes when it is the highest weak note in a group of notes such as d-e-d; otherwise, the open e is played.
Well come on, the MacCrimmon legend and all that. What about the MacArthurs and Mull? Many of the legends of the MacCrimmons have been exposed, sometimes brutally. What about the speckled pipe? A bundle of firewood according to the great R Reid.
What about Campsie and his research ? Sir Walter Scott, James logan, Angus Mackay....
There's plenty of jumps from notes on the D string to notes on the A string in Irish diddley music. plenty. Not sure how I do it, but do it I do ... often enough to have developed a technique for it. There's even one in the first bar of drowsy maggie.
Also Lazyhound, I can think of another couple of Irish diddley uses for the E with the pinky on the A string. When you want t slide up to or down from the E. And when you want to double stop it, play the two notes together, E with the pinky on the A string and open E string
I do know the research you are talking about but it's beside the point. Regardless of whether or not there was a "college" of piping on Skye as per Angus Mackay's description, we do know that there were pipers on Skye.
However, when you cross the bridge at Kyle of Lochalsh, you have to pass through the border guards who search your vehicle and your person for metronomes.
I think you'll find that there are a number of cross-string jumps around, such as e-G-e, c-A,-B around (please don't ask me to identify specific tunes - I'm dreadful on names!). This bowing technique is worth learning in order to do these jumps cleanly, and I would think that the more advanced players do use it on occasion. It's probably below most players' radar because it doesn't occur in the tutor books (as far as I am aware), and is unlikely to get taught specifically in workshops, but that doesn't mean that it should be ignored.
It is possible for a fiddler to play Irish tunes fairly effectively without using rolls or bowed triples but think how much his playing is enhanced when he gets round to learning such techniques properly.
Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
It's just the first bars that are a problem, the string jumping stuff, any tips?
Thanks
WF
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by WobblingFiddle
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
play through the string and use short bow strokes, be precise about where the stroke begins, but also where it ends
and quit your job and play alot
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
I take it you mean the cross-string jump from the g on the E-string to the G on the D-string? In addition to Nate's advice I'd add, practice jumps like this very slowly - which is why you need to quit your job
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
yep, day job, gotta go....
he he . Its a pipe tune, I often find pipe tunes dont transfer so well to the fiddle, playing both I often try. Generally I change down to D or G, but in this case try E mix, much easier to handle. IMO and more likely to fit in a session.
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Just in case you are not familiar with how to do that , this is how I transpose easily.
copy ABC, go here ;
http://www.slainte.ch/abc.asp, down 4 steps copy, go here http://www.concertina.net/tunes_convert.html
print/save PDF
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Stick to Amix WobblingFiddle, the chances of hearing it in any other key at a session is next to nil. Scottish fiddlers find transferring pipe tunes to the fiddle relatively straight forward, possibly through necessity. Stick at it.
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by bogman
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
oh, I get it now.. the tune Pressed for Time
I thought he was "pressed for time" like people in Dear Abby
you know, Dear Abby I can't get these string crossings smooth for the life of me
signed
Pressed for Time
that sort of thing
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Speaking as a piper and fiddler I take pipe tunes and play them on the fiddle a lot bogman, Its not a matter of can it be done, of course it can, but they often lose a certain something in translation .
Maybe tunes like that get played at Scottish pipe sessions but very unlikely to find it at an Irish session eh? Seeing as how WF lives in venice its possible the only time it will be played in a session is if he starts it, in which case it makes no odds what key its in.
Personally I find little in the tune that translates to fiddle, especially in Amix. In E mix its actually quite reasonable on the fiddle, not that it interests me at all.. Amix?! well whatever turns you on ...
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Amix is the key it is written in and played in. If it gets played in Ireland that would be the case too. Amix is the ideal key for whistle or flute whereas Emix is possible but awkward for the flute and very awkward on the whistle. Changing the key of that tune would be madness unless you are playing it alone on the fiddle or with other fiddlers who for some strange reason learnt the tune in the wrong key.
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by bogman
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Wrong key? not at all, just different key. your not trying to tell me that tunes are only to be played in 'the right ' key are you! Where would that leave the highland pipers playing the Masons apron? wrong? or Irish pipers playing Miss Mcleods. What about A440 pipes? or a D set of small pipes? or a C set? Bb Uilleann pipes....
Or whistlers with a C A, G, Bb whistle.... East clare fiddlers playing in Gm, F Bb, etc etc etc.
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Who in their right mind would play that (or anything else) in Emix?
It gets played in Irish sessions, by the way.
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Irish sessions where?
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Same old Ionannas. Offering very poor advice then sticking to it like glue.
For sessions Highland pipers play A border or smallpipes - not D. D sets are next to useless for sessions.
Flat sets are a different case altogether and nor relevent to this discussion. Who plays other than a D whistle other than out of necessity at a session?
Anyway, I'm off out. WobblingFiddle - don't be fooled. Amix is the best key for that tune, you are highly unlikely to hear it in any other key unless there is a bonkers sect in E. Clare, but don't count on it.
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by bogman
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Scotland, Boston, Dublin, at least one in Miltown Malbay.... undoubtedly other places but those are the ones where I have heard it or know through mates where it's played. And no, I didn't start it as I am utter pish at that tune and would never, ever start it.
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
I first heard this tune on fiddle, played by Troy MacGillivray. I think it translates well.
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by sarai
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Actual useful string crossing advice (Google book link shortened)
http://tinyurl.com/kj8e4q
Crossing strings? Tips? Do it slowly. Then again. Then again. Then...do it again. Repeat ad infinitum.
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
I love playing this tune on the fiddle and it does get played at our (albeit scottish-ish) session fairly regularly. I do all single bowings for those first couple bars and really try to punch out those top notes, so that I get a bit of the groove syncopation going and don't end up nailing all the notes with equal emphasis. And I second the advice about practicing very slowly. Good luck!
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by t-rex
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Good tune, goes surprisingly well on the fiddle. Like others say, single bowing for the first two bars, as little bow as possible.
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by Henk Bos
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Maybe it's just me--but I just experimented with it (can't say I like the tune enough to learn the whole thing) and I think you could use some slurs in the opening bars. All those single bows and string crossings seem to be too much work, to me.
Keep third finger planted on the D string, rock the bow up to the open A string and then the high g note, change bow direction at the top (which tends to mute the A string when you go back down) and so on. Emphasize the descending line of high notes (g, f#, e, e, e) and let the low notes fall naturally into place.
It feels a bit awkward and sloppy at first, but I think that with a lot of practice, you could play it faster (and easier) that way eventually. It also lets the open A and E strings ring more, for an interesting effect.
I'm not saying it's the "correct" way to play it, just an interesting possibility.
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by John Galt
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Thank you all!
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by WobblingFiddle
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Don't even try it. I've also learnt it on both instruments (whistle and fiddle), and it sits really well on whistle - and I guess also Highland pipes, which it was written for - but terribly on fiddle. The string-crossing at the beginning is just so awkward it's not even worth attempting to play fluently.
My advice is to learn it on the flute or whistle, or, of course, the Highland pipes! But if it's definitely going to be fiddle, I'd just skip the string-crossing, and go: GAgA AfAA | eAAe AAeA etc.
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by Joe CSS
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Play it an octave below, that avoids string-skipping.
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by BrownAleMugger
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Just don't play the G - play two As instead
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by Picopanpipe
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Just realised that's exactly what Joe CSS suggests. My bad.
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by Picopanpipe
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
riada's suggestion is very similar to mine, same fingering, but still in Amix. much more approachable than the vsn written in the sesh data base IMO [ of which Dows setting is much clearer]~
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
There is a way of moving the bow from the g on the E-string to the G on the D-string without losing contact with the strings and without vibrating the A. Basically, you momentarily pivot the bow on the A-string during the transition from the E-string to the D-string, without moving the A (which would cause it to vibrate). Needless to say, this (classical) technique requires a lot of careful slow practice, but when acquired it gives a magical noise-free fast jump across the strings while maintaining full string contact. I'd also add that you need a good teacher to guide you through this one.
Whether it's worth learning this technique (unless it's for classical playing) for it's relatively small occurrence in a small number of Irish pipe-derived tunes is very debatable. To my mind it's a more efficient use of the fiddler's time to devise a work-around (as Joe CSS and Picopanpipe have pointed out), just as a flute player would figure out a way of playing a fiddle tune that has notes below his range - and without changing the key.
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Each to their own. I change the keys on most tunes I learn.
I ,like to have 2 different fingerings and to be adaptable. I play many standard D tunes in C as well. Em tunes in Dm etc. Recently trying going down 2 steps, so D tunes in Bb.
As you know lazy, once a tune is learnt in Em or E mix then the fingering is the same for A mix/m. just a string down.
Of course, if you really want to play it as written its just a matter of practice. Id bow 2 down 1 up on the E string.
As far as the key goes, well its originally in Bb mix, being as how its a GHB tune.
Sets of pipes are made to play with other session instruments. I myself have a set of small pipes in A and a set of GHB in A440 as well specifically to play in more sociable keys. The writing of pipe tunes in A is just a convention, most pipes are in Bb and sharper. I have a 7/8th fiddle tuned constantly a semi tone sharp to play in Eb and Bb mix so I can play along with the GHB easily.
Adapting tunes from different genres and instruments is a rewarding process but as in translating languages, 'poetic licence' is almost essential.
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
"As far as the key goes, well its originally in Bb mix"
Well, every man and his dug plays highland pipe tunes in A when played on another instrument.
Except Ionanass of course.
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by On Sabbatical
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
I remember seeing a scottish band once who had pipes and two fiddles. One of the fiddle players played with his fiddle tuned up a semitone, the other one played standard tuning with Bb fingering. It was just bloody stupid. And sounded crap.
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by ...
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Ionanass was talking about playing along with an instrument tuned in B-flat, the music for which by convention is written in A, making it a transposing instrument like a clarinet. If he's doing this a lot it's sensible to have a fiddle permanently tuned a semi tone sharp; he'll be playing in A on that fiddle but it comes out as B-flat. It's also a useful idea for playing along with some of Frankie Gavin's or Matt Cunningham's recordings, which are a semi tone sharp for various reasons.
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
"Recently trying going down 2 steps, so D tunes in Bb."
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by ...
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
There's no problem with tuning a fiddle up to play along with the pipes - but to transpose pipe tunes into keys other than A would certainly be antisocial if playing in a session situation.. I will take back that it's only Ionannas that does this, as I've encountered this once before in a session, where every pipe tune I heard had been transposed. I voted with my feet and have not returned to that particular session...
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by On Sabbatical
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Also because its a 7/8th sized fiddle, it sits at F ,Bb,Eb, Ab. very well. I play D tunes in Bb major just for fun and to play with the odd Bb Uilleann piper. D tunes to play with a GHB are played in Eb.
I started playing in C because a box player friend of mine plays in C. but now I do it for the enjoyment. Tunes sound so different played in flat keys, and offer very different places for ornaments too.
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
It depends, Ron in Scotland that may well be the case. here however A tunes are often played in G to suit the uilleann pipes. I've not encountered Scots smallpipes here in sessions, unless I take my own of course!
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Going down 2 steps may not be all that useful. Unless you use the heaviest gauge strings you can lay your hands on the tone won't sound too good, the strings will feel floppy, and there will be a tendency for the strings to climb up towards their original pitch. However, that tendency to sharpen probably wouldn't happen if you fit brand new heavy gauge strings that never get tuned up to their designated pitch.
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
I didnt mean tuning down 2 steps, just playing down 2 steps. I dont retune my fiddles[apart from the 7/8th] to play in C or Bb, I just transpose, the different fingering gives a fresh lease of life to an old tune!
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Taking a regular walk not good enough for you? Going to cut off one foot first, make it more interesting?
Anyway, how about them cross string bowing techniques, eh?
Holy thread hijack into Ionannas and his technocolor-key dream fiddle.
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Not a highjack, just pointing out that though its written in Amix its actually played in Bb mix on the instrument it was 'composed 'on.
No I wouldn't cut of my foot but I probably be carrying a heavy pack. SWFL after 25yrs of playing standards in standard keys Its nice to break out of the box and try something a little different. Though not so far out of the box as Gordon Duncan. perhaps! Personally I'm with Seamus on this one.
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
It's one thing transposing tunes for your own amusement but it's another offering that as advice.
As far as Bb goes, that is irrelevant. As you should know, GHB music is read by pipers in A (though no sharps are shown) and they think round the A scale. Fiddlers tune up a semi tone and play in A and related keys when playing with GHB. The tune, as in all GHB tunes, should be treated by players of other instruments as A.
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by bogman
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
I suggested playing it a more manageable fingering/key, were you a fiddler you would have some understanding of why.The fingering I suggested, by shifting down a string, would provide the tune in A mix. Were you a fiddler you would have realised that.
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
No, you actually said in your first post -
"I often find pipe tunes dont transfer so well to the fiddle, playing both I often try. Generally I change down to D or G, but in this case try E mix, much easier to handle. IMO and more likely to fit in a session."
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by bogman
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Absolutely, the fiddle is then playing in Emix . With the sharpened G, it could be quite interesting, bit like The Bear Island reel which starts in E mix.
A simple matter to shift over and play in A mix, or shift up and play in B mix. I guess it would come out as a Dmix tune for the Uilleann pipes as I transpose all my D mix Irish tunes to A mix on the Pipes.
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
So how about them cross string bowings?
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Ha ha.
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
I haven't read all this stuff, but from a mandolin/banjo plucker's point of view, (which should work on the fiddle ...?) for the first phrases of PfT, you can anchor your index finger on G on the D string, and leave it there while you play the A on the D string with your second finger and pick out the high g, f#, e with your little and 3rd fingers on the A string.
That gives a bit more sharpness when playing with fiddles or boxes, although cross-picking in the first position can sound nice in other contexts.
Even if you can't play along with it because of the key, it's well worth casting all the frantic fiddle versions out of your head for a while and listening to GD's own recording of it.
the main sounds you can hear on his recording are pipes, banjo and percussion, then a whistley thing. Not fiddles.
Works well in that ensemble arrangement, but as a fiddle-only tune, it's a bit of a pig
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by Bren
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Pretty straight forward fingering Bren,. but being as how its 3rd position, not sure thats allowed you know
Still same fingering I suggested of course, but in 3rd position .
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Sorry, Ionannas, I thought someone might have said it but I got lost in all the talk about pipe keys.
For me as a plunker, pipe music is treated as written in the D key signature , and the tune itself might be in A or D.
So a flat sign on the C means C natural, since it would've been C# otherwise.
but that's just me
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by Bren
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
No, my mistake Bren,, I suggested playing it in another fingering, . yours is probably the simplest for the fiddle in the key and octave given.
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
While changing the key might be the easiest and most practical fix, this kind of issue can be solved by learning to play in more than just first position. Learn at least up to third or even fifth. It can come in handy. Then you don't have to jump so far.
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by Fiddlechick7
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
That's a top idea Fiddlechick ... 7!
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by Bren
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
There's a problem with fiddle players playing in positions other than first. They don't practice it.
Of course, you could say that they should practice it. But that kind of misses the point of what defines the difference between a fiddle player and a violin player. A fiddle player plays the fiddle repertoire, and that repertoire doesn't have much above the B with your pinky on the E string.
So when they/I do go up the dusty bit, it's out of tune.
So should they/I practice it to get it right? Why, when 99.9% of the repertoire doesn't require it?
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by ...
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
A violin player will practice technique so that they can handle what a piece of music throws at them.
A fiddle player plays tunes, and simply gets better at playing tunes.
It's a different approach, that's all
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by ...
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Llig, times are changing. There are more fiddle players around now, particularly in the younger generation, who have had classical violin training and would therefore consider going up the fingerboard to make an awkward bit (such as in this tune) a little easier. In the relatively short time I've been playing the fiddle I think I've become aware of these changes.
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
The Influence of Scots fiddlers certainly has to be considered in the music of say Johny Doherty with more virtuostic dalliances up in the positions. Its really down to personal/regional style.
Here we are actually discussing a piece of modern music composed by a Highland piper. Its not trad and its not Irish so there is no reason why a fiddler playing in should feel constrained by any particular stylistic conventions.
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
.....Its not trad and its not Irish so there is no reason why a fiddler should feel constrained by any particular stylistic conventions.
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
"There are more fiddle players around now"
Trev, From my definition of fiddle playing, all you are really saying is that there are less fiddle players around,.
Jig, if you think that playing in first position is merely a stylistic convention then you spectacularly miss the point. As usual.
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by ...
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
"A fiddle player plays tunes, and simply gets better at playing tunes" - true, but it is special pleading. The fact that a fiddle player plays tunes and gets better at playing them (which is to be expected) does not prevent that fiddle player from also playing the violin in an orchestra and thereby getting better at playing classical music.
There are just as many fiddle players as ever, probably even more. It's just that more of them today have learnt classical (school orchestras for instance), perhaps alongside Irish fiddle, or perhaps before taking up the fiddle, and may continue to play in both genres. Even if they no longer play classical they still have their classical techniques available in the locker, as it were, for use if the occasion arises. Techniques, once learnt, are never lost.
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
So you think Johney Doherty isnt a fiddler? or a trad fiddler? not Irish enough? what? He plays in the positions.
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
... and spectacularly missing the point ... yet again ...
You don't need the positions. They won't make you a better fiddle player. I've never come across a fiddle player who was better for the ability to play up the dusty bit, though I do know some who do it very well. The vastly more common scenario is that fiddle players play very poorly up the dusty bit and their attempts make them much worse fiddle players.
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by ...
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Where does the contradiction reel for example fit into your narrow [minded?] view of fiddlers and fiddle tunes? Should we not attempt to play it ? or transpose to a more 1st position friendly key?
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
".....Its not trad and its not Irish so there is no reason why a fiddler should feel constrained by any particular stylistic conventions."
What about Scottish stylistic conventions? Or don't they matter?
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Wouldn't know, NCFA, which conventions are they? and anyhow Id say tha they wouldn't apply to an Irish session, and vice versa.
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
The contradiction reel is a classic example of the bloody racket otherwise perfectly good fiddle players make when they attempt the dusty bit. It's so ubiquitous that playing the high part of that tune out of tune on a fiddle has become a stylistic convention all of its own.
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by ...
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
So the remedy is.... dont try the contradiction reel? or, dare I say it, practice it lots till it sounds in tune?!
Why not even practice the positions? you never know when they might come in handy eh? or would that be too radical eh? you know, actually exploring what the instrument is capable of... nah better not eh? 'fiddlers' dont do that kind of shtuff eh? gotta conform to the stylistic conventions eh? follow the rules[ even if they dont even exist in reality, as evidenced by Johnny Doherty.] Whatever next eh? scales and shtuff like that wot aint rite for fiddlers to do... !
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
What is the effort worth?
Some people like effort for the sake of it. I know you do.
To play in tune up the dusty bit takes as much playing time up the dusty bit as all your playing time in first position. If all you want to do is play diddley tunes, it's a waste of time. You'd be a better fiddle player all round if you spent your time playing fiddle tunes instead of practicing where 99.9% of the music doesn't go.
Just like scales and stuff. If all you want to do is play diddley tunes, scales are a waste of time. Scales are just crap tunes. Why waste your time playing crap tunes.
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by ...
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
What? Ioannas, you are telling Michael, "Why not even practice the positions? you never know when they might come in handy eh? or would that be too radical eh? you know, actually exploring what the instrument is capable of... nah better not eh? 'fiddlers' dont do that kind of shtuff eh? gotta conform to the stylistic conventions eh? follow the rules."
But a couple posts ago you told Alistair, "Wouldn't know, NCFA, which conventions are they [Scottish]? and anyhow Id say tha they wouldn't apply to an Irish session, and vice versa."
So what point are you even trying to make here? On one hand you seem to think Irish sessions should conform to certain "stylistic conventions" and then you say that they shouldn't and fiddlers should explore the instrument a bit more (hmmm.... maybe by learning Pressed for Time in the proper key?). Other than just contradicting yourself, I don't see where you are going.
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
He's just trying to goad me. This thread will probably run and run now and end up with us both getting barred ... again.
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by ...
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
I am perfectly happy with the idea of musicians exploring their instrument to expand their potential on it. I am quite envious of the guitarists who are comfortable playing traditional music, jazz, blues and rock, playing lead, melody and accompaniment or rhythm. I do not have such a broad range of styles.
If fiddlers want to learn to play "up the dusty bits" then that is great. Full credit to them. To suggest that because a tune is not Irish that no respect needs to be given to how it should be played is preposterous. If you want a Scottish tune to sound authentic then learn some Scottish ornaments and stylistic phrases. If you want it to sound Irish then play it as if it was an Irish tune. To think you can just drop any attempt at traditionality just because you are playing a Scottish tune in Ireland is ridiculous. It makes the tune neither Scottish or Irish. It would destroy the tune.
If you want to play a tune like Pressed for Time in a different key that is fine. Go for it. Don't expect folk to be able to join in with you in a session however because everyone else would have learnt it in the proper key. If you are just changing the key to make it easier to play then that is just lazy, pure and simple.
Ionannas - I thought you played Scottish pipes. If you really do then you wouldn't need me to explain Scottish music to you. You must have learnt it in your formative years of learning to play the instruments.
Emily - are you really saying that Ionannas wants Irish music to conform to certain stylistic conventions and to sound authentically Irish? If you are then I am afraid I can't agree with you.
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
I make Scottish tunes sound Irish all the time, can't help it. And there's a long tradition of Irish musicians taking tunes from all over the place and making them sound Irish.
And if you want to learn to play up the dusty bit then that is great. Full credit to you. Just remember though, It won't help your fiddle playing. And it won't sound Irish.
There is a use sometimes though to change the key of a tune and that is to be sociable. Tommy Peoples wrote Black Pat's in F and it's much better in that key on the fiddle. But I'm more than happy to play it in G with a flute. And I'll play it in C or D fiddle fingering on my viola, so it comes out in F or G, depending on the company
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by ...
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
SS I think I am pointing out that these 'stylistic convention' exist only in the minds of some people. They can not be applied universally and to suggest they can is frankly ludicrous! I didnt think my tongue in cheek comments could actually be taken seriously!
>>To suggest that because a tune is not Irish that no respect needs to be given to how it should be played is preposterous.<<<
Hmm I never said anything that could even be remotely construed to mean that.
My point was that how could a modern Scottish tune be confined by regional stylistic concerns! especially one of GD's who managed to decimate the conventions of his Instrument almost single handedly! Its laughable, that small minded people should attempt to dictate to anyone how a tune like this 'should' be played. In a certain key its right, in another its 'wrong'! Its ok in first position but not in third! A Gordon Duncan tune FCS!
Llig, you say you make even Scottish music sound Irish, perhaps you'd leave that to others to judge? from what Ive heard Id have to disagree, didn't sound remotely Irish.
As far as Jonny Doherty 'not sounding Irish' well I think that comment says a lot about your concepts of Irish music and little about the playing of a fine fiddler who happened to explore 'the dusty bits', and no llig you are completely mistaken, I have absolutely no interest in' goading you' .
The fact is I simply express myself and my viewpoint. Feel free to disagree that way we get healthy debate that can shed light on various issues and perhaps help others on their way .
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Yeah yeah yeah ... like calling people "small minded" is "healthy debate
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by ...
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
How about bowing? The thread was supposed to be about bowing, and instead, you've gone off on one your mighty rants about GHB and changes of key, not to mention playing in classical music positions.
All for the sake of what? Is changing tunes into non-Irish keys (pipes, flutes and whistles) assisting someone's cross-bowing technique, or is it simply serving your ego to continually post about yourself? Rhetorical question, obviously.
Just in case any poor soul has waded through this nonsense, here is some actual advice as it pertains to the topic of the thread:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/22540/comments#comment467007
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/22540/comments#comment467018
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/22540/comments#comment467041
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
That being said, it's always a pleasure to have 'tradpiper' stop by and 'jig' us all up a bit.
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
".....Its not trad and its not Irish so there is no reason why a fiddler should feel constrained by any particular stylistic conventions."
You seem to suggest because it is not an old Irish tune that it does not matter how you play the tune. In fact you don't suggest it. You say it.
I would argue that just because a tune is a recent composition doesn't mean you don't need to observe standards when playing the tune. If anything, given that the tune has not gone through centuries of morphing and changing by the aural tradition there are even less reasons for not trying to play the tune properly.
Gordon Duncan was very good at pushing the envelope for what gets played on the Pipes and, in particular, the idea of playing notes not normally in the scale through half-holing and so forth. He also played lots of tunes from the Irish and Breton traditions on the pipes. I would argue however that whatever he did he still sounded like a Piper and a highly skilled one at that. His ornamentation and his approach to the music came from a lifetime of devoted study to his instrument. He didn't take short cuts and he didn't have a laissez-faire notion of playing the music. You on the other hand do seem to take this approach.
If you want to learn how to play a Gordon Duncan tune properly listen to how Gordon Duncan played it. Obvious really.
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Hang on, why is anyone talking about playing in 3rd position on Pressed for Time? It is a pipe tune. Does it even have the musical range to require playing in anything other than first position?
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Someone above suggested that if you play that part of the tune with the difficult bow jump with a different left hand possition, then there wouldn't be a difficult bow jump.
Kind of like suggesting to someone who is about to hop over a puddle that if they turned right, walked a couple of block, took a left, and another left, then walk another couple of blocks, they'd be right there on the other side of the puddle and they wouldn't have had to jump over it.
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by ...
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Re: jumping over puddles
heh. Good one llig.
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by Georgi
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Surely that would just mean you wouldn't be able to ornament the tune properly and you wouldn't get the nice sound of open strings? Ach, I am not a fiddler so I can't give advice on bowing technique. It seems to me however that it would probably be easier to fix the bowing than playing a run of notes elsewhere on the fiddle. I had presumed you were all talking about playing on the dusty bits of the E string. Silly me.
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Someone suggested playing the phrase in 3rd position , which is how we got to the dusty bits!
How do you ornament a modern pipe tune properly on the fiddle NCFA? What exactly is a 'proper' ornament? In which regional style?
NCFA , most days I transfer GHB tunes to the fiddle and vice versa, I see no reason to restrict myself to specific keys, here in East Clare there isnt a big session scene playing modern Scots tunes anyhow.
If a tune sits or sounds easier in a different key then why not? Its not as If playing it in Emix precludes playing in Amix, fingering is the same. Of course if the OP wishes to play it in A mix, in the octave its written, in first position then the bowing is straightforward. That was sorted in the first couple of posts. I prefer to keep things simple . If I were to play it then I would stick to first position , play it in the low octave or in E mix.
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
"How do you ornament a modern pipe tune properly on the fiddle NCFA?"
Now Ionannas, you know I don't play the fiddle and if you forgot that then you could see in my last post that I said I don't play the fiddle. You are merely being awkward now. If you really want to know the answer to that question then ask a real fiddler. I am sure they would be happy to help you out.
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
".....Its not trad and its not Irish so there is no reason why a fiddler should feel constrained by any particular stylistic conventions."
etc etc or can we just play the tunes how we feel like and to hell with all these conventions? or perhaps to hell with just some of them? Jeez its a minefield with all these rules, thank feck I never read the rule book before I started playing trad ! Id probably sweat at night thinking and worrying whether Im following the right conventions for any particular tune or not 
Thats my opinion. If you have some particular Scottish stylistic conventions you think ought to be taken into account, fair enough. I asked you what they were. Are they piping conventions? or fiddle conventions>? and do you think Irish sessions should follow these conventions? Should Irish tunes played on the pipes follow Irish conventions? or GHB conventions? should GHB tunes played on fiddle in Irish sessions follow GHB conventions? Scottish fiddle conventions or Irish conventions?
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
It doesn't matter what set of "conventions" you follow as long as you are consistant within the tune. I suppose it depends how you want it to sound. If you want it to sound close to how it is "meant" to be played then listen to Gordon Duncan. If you want it to sound Irish then fine.
There is no point discussing all this with you anyway as you do not believe in ornamentation. I seem to remember you saying it was imported into Irish music from baroque music and is not traditional. I can't argue against that. I would be wasting my breath.
Besides, as you have pointed out the thread was about bowing technique for one particular part of one tune. I will leave that up to the fiddlers to advise on.
The only reason this whole argument started was because you advised learning the tune in E mix. For you sitting in your house in Clare playing by yourself that is fine but for someone starting out on the fiddle and wanting to fit into sessions (as is the case with many who read this website) that is distinctly bad advice.
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
<<that is distinctly bad advice.>> No its not NCFA, you dont play the fiddle so how on earth do feel competent to tell me what is good and bad fiddle advice.? If you were a fiddler youd know that by shifting a string the same fingering in Emix becomes Amix. but your not a fiddler and you dont have a clue do you?
Secondly I have never said Im not into ornamenting, I ornament and vary my tunes when and where it feels appropriate .
The fact that Irish music stems far beyond the Baroque period and that it is even today played ornamented by dynamic and powerful well respected trad musicians from Ireland is hardly debatable is it? How can you argue with facts?
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
correction; Un -ornamented by dynamic and powerful well respected trad musicians from Ireland is hardly debatable is it?
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wP9gmB3U9w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKMhhIeeUEc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RY4dtg3ZDIY&feature=PlayList&p=D656AAE65F229AF5&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=45
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
A lot of people come here asking for advice on the stylistic conventions of playing traditional music.
And we know that you don't follow any stylistic conventions.
You don't even follow your own advice to have a normal healthy debate. You call people "small minded" and tell them they "haven't a clue". etc.
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by ...
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
I may not be a fiddler but I am still aware of the changing keys when you shift strings. It is also the same on the mandolin and tenor guitar and any string instruments tuned that way. It is also not that far from playing DADGAD guitar in that you can move the chord shape up or down strings and it changes the key.
My point has nothing to do with fiddling however. It makes no difference what instrument you are playing the tune on. If you want to play with other musicians you are best off learning it in the key it was written in and is most likely to be played in.
I am not telling you what is good or bad fiddle advice. I specifically said I do not play the fiddle and I am in no position to advise on technical fiddle matters. I do however have ears, I do play this music and I have some common sense and I am am able to advise like anyone else on here on general matters of the music. I can also spot really bad advice from a mile off.
The other contributors on this thread who have argued against changing the key also know what they are talking about, some of them a lot more than me. It just appears however that they have decided, sensibly, to back away from this argument with you when I have blustered on. I have no wish to be banned from this site. Jeremy has had no cause to do it up to now and I am not about to give him cause now.
This will be my last comment on this thread. You can continue to argue with yourself if you want.
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Ali, as my mind reading skills are not very good, I don't know what Ionannas thinks. I was pointing out that he is just contradicting himself and not making a lot of sense by implying Irish music should follow certain conventions in some posts and then saying for a tune like Pressed for Time, "conventions" can be thrown out the window. And going on about playing in third position, which is rarely used for the vast majority of Irish tunes.
Anyway, if you want to play Pressed for Time in Emix, fair play to it if it makes you happy. But if you went out to a session where people know the tune and you played it in Emix, everyone would go, "Huh?"
If the OP wants to be sociable at a session, they'd best learn the tune in Amix.
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Of course, not changing the key of a tune for any other reason than to be more sociable is a traditional music stylistic convention. And and that's good advice.
I however will continue this "healthy debate" until Jig and I are both banned ... again ..... As a public service to the rest of you.
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by ...
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
<<implying Irish music should follow certain conventions>> Where ? I dont know where you get that from SS, could you cut and paste?
yes third position is rare in ITM, and? I dont actually know if the contradiction is an Irish or Scottish tune?
Anyhow here we are not talking about Irish music, but Scottish music, Scottish fiddling does not operate under the same constraints as the ITM does it? The positions are essential in a huge selection of traditional Scottish tunes.
Why should a fiddler playing a modern GHB tune operate under Irish conventions, unless they so choose?
As far as playing in Emix or mix, they use exactly the same fingering just a string down, were you a fiddler I wouldnt have to point that out again!
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Wow, I just logged on after that simple last post on perhaps "crawling" up the string to avoid a nasty bow change. I'm surprised out how much that simple piece of advice got everything going in a rant direction. I RARELY use positions other than first when playing fiddle, though I have used third in conjunction with first when I play Scottish pipe tunes in the piper's original key. I don't think it's that big of a deal, honestly. Some of the best fiddlers I've seen use positions and they aren't classically taught in the slightest. And they don't use it to make the music sound "classical" either. Strange how anything remotely taken from ANY kind of training on this site stirs the pot. Sometimes I think some people are just prejudiced to be cantakerous, against anything that they don't personally do. It's just silly. Enjoy yourself and the music. It isn't a popularity contest on who is the most "proper".. wtf does that mean anyway, "proper", when there are so many regional variances. Proper is a relative term.
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by Fiddlechick7
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
It's not Irish conventions, it's session etiquette conventions, which include not playing tunes in bizarre keys that no one else plays them in. No one cares if you play Pressed for Time in Emix or any other key, but if you are advising someone else to do so as a way of avoiding a difficult string crossing, it should come with the HUGE caveat that virtually no one they will encounter at any session will play the tune in that key. If they want to play the thing at a session, best learn it in the standard key.
Loads of fiddlers play Pressed for Time very well, so there's no shortage good advice out there for how to play it. No need to reinvent the wheel here. Or as someone else in this thread said, no need go round the block to avoid the puddle and end up in the wrong part of town when you could have just hopped over it.
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
I think we have all encountered musos in our travels who are tools, basically, and will go to a session and play lots of common tunes in weird keys. Don't be that guy.
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Jeez SS its almost the same on the fiddle! Emix and A mix use the same fingering one string differently.
As far as playing it at the speed its played at! on the fiddle? well could you suggest a recording I could listen to? or one of these fiddlers here perhaps could demonstrate? not in Bbmix even, just in the session version Amix.in the high octave....
As far as session etiquette goes, that depends on the session doesnt it?go to a C session you wouldnt expect to play your D whistle, same with an Eb sess, and a Bb sesh. yes most sessions world wide are in D, thank god not all of them!
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
<<think we have all encountered musos in our travels who are tools, basically, and will go to a session and play lots of common tunes in weird keys. Don't be that guy.>>
like this guy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLe9etQ0iwQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aF3fW4Nox9U&feature=PlayList&p=BEF65C7F22572971&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=16
someone should have told him ! hes playing all his tunes in the wrong key, what a tool eh?
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
disingenuous
giving a false appearance of simple frankness
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/disingenuous
Yeah, great examples of session playing in common keys. [/sarcasm]
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Isengeious before....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCB70qJl9Yk&feature=related
Look at this guy, poor fellow, sat alone in his bathroom, playing on his own cos no one wants to play in C. No wonder he plays the slow air so well, must be really miserable....
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Session A9 play it on their What Road album.
Here is a youtube clip of Charlie McKerron, Tim Edey, Bo JIngham, and Marc Clement playing it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qx2mjjMINwg. Watch Charlie's bowing when he starts the tune at about 2:49.
Here is a video of some fellas at the fleadh playing it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzNWWOKUyoM The video quality is rubbish but they're good musicians. In Ireland!
Here are a couple nice fiddle players playing it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2G0n66qxvQ
As far as Bb or C or Eb sessions go, so what? Sessions tuned down or up has nothing to do with what key you should learn this tune in. If you were to show up at a Bb session with your Bb whistle (or your fiddle tuned down to Bb) and played this using Emix fingering, it would still confuse your session mates.
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Thanks for the links.
You , confused me! what do you mean tuned down to Bb? which string goes to Bb? normally you'd tune up a semi tone.... or do you really mean tuned down? the G down 1 1./2 tones.... never done that. I dont generally retune my fiddle, I just play in different keys. In standard tuning If you use the fingering I suggested, you can play it in E mix, A mix and B mix just shifting strings.
I do have a special Eb 7/8th fiddle, but only for special occasions.
To play easily in Emix youd need an A whistle,D whistle gives you A mix etc
At least one link appear to play a modified fiddle version, not what is written here. They simply remove most of the tricky bits . and its played at a nice steady pace, not like the whistlers linked earlier . That low G stands out strongly when it happens.
The other link its not so clear who is playing what, but its a mighty set that, Charlie McKerron and Friends.
The rough one was just a visual/Aural blur.
thanks, nice music, I enjoyed them both.
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Don't know how you do it when you play a C or B or whatever session (if you play them), but fiddlers I know who play with uilleann pipers on C or B or whatever sets tune their fiddle down to the key in question. I don't know anyone who would relearn a D tune say, in B, so they can play with a piper who has a B set. They'd just readjust their strings. To a lower note, not higher, as a B chanter is pitched considerably lower than a concert pitch one. I haven't clue what notes fiddlers tune the strings to but I am sure one of the fiddlers on this site knows.
The fiddlers I know here in Scotland who play with a lot of GHB players tune their fiddles *up* a semi-tone, as the GHB is pitched higher than A440. They don't bother relearning tunes in Bb.
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
I keep a special 7/8th sized fiddle tuned up a semitone, but to play D tunes in C I simply transpose down a tone. Excellent mind training and great fun. I play The masons Apron for example in F, G and A. without retuning the fiddle which , with gut strings, is a pain anyhow. Em jigs like the Monaghan in Dm...[as well as Em of course] great altogether. Drops of Brandy in F G and A, etc etc etc It offers loads of different ways to phrase and ornament a tune. lots of drones sometimes, playing D tunes in C means they are the same fingering for G too.
# Posted on September 3rd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
I can transpose all the tunes I play into any key at will. I can play them all in at least three different positions too, but I find the crap comes out best when I'm squatting.
# Posted on September 4th 2009 by pavlf
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
ha ha
# Posted on September 4th 2009 by ...
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
I think there's a straight forward bit of basics that not been mentioned yet ...
I absolutely adore Gordon Duncan playing this tune. It's so remarkable, so inventive, so jaw-dropingly brilliant. It so magically explodes what the GHB can be, It so magically shows the genius of Gordan Duncan.
However, It's crap on the fiddle. Awkward and stupid. And Fluke's version on the whistle is crap too, those stupid tongue triplets instead of the pipe's amazing burls and stuff.
# Posted on September 4th 2009 by ...
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Yeah, it's crap on the uilleann pipes as well. Unless your name is Jarlath Henderson.
# Posted on September 4th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
SS , Would'nt be played in Dmix on the Uilleann pipes ?
# Posted on September 4th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
You could, but not if you wanted to play it in the same key as your mates at the session.
# Posted on September 4th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
What about the Masons apron? you play that in A? or G? Fox-hunters reel? A or G?
So what your mates dont adapt to you? you have to do play things in tricky keys just because your mates are unwilling to be flexible?
# Posted on September 4th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
A good example of a tune that lives in two keys, G or A, is Maggie in the Woods. In most sessions it's in G, but nobody moans if it's in A. When we play it as the last figure of the Connemara set dance we start it in G and for the last time through, when the dancers speed up, crank it up to A.
# Posted on September 4th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Same with the 2 tunes I mentioned, they are Played in G on the Uilleann pipes while fiddlers prefer them in A . I also play a variant of the Fox-hunters with the 2nd part up in D, all the rest in A [as well as the standard vsns in G and A.}
Think out of the box.
# Posted on September 4th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
<<.they are Played in G on the Uilleann pipes,.>>..Unless they play a C set of course , in which case its in F. Now thats a lovely key for the foxhunters! great fun.
# Posted on September 4th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
I really liked the way those two lassies played the tune.
The thing is; on pipes there is only 2 possibilities, note on, note off, all through the 9 notes on the instrument.The fiddle is completely different you can easily have 3 or 4 notes resonating at different volumes at the same time by using open strings and fast string crossing, as on this tune. You end up with the A and low G going constantly, creating an A7 chord beneath the top line 'walking down' so to speak. So in a way you are getting a nice approximation of the drone effect from the GHB, where the minor7th chord is created by the low G sitting between the Bass A and 2 tenor A's.
Try Down, Down,up, all the way through that first phrase, Timing has to be sharp for to keep the Syncopated rhythm together. So try to avoid hitting the A on the way back which will take time off the repeating low G ending up with phase shift, where the up beat becomes the down beat over a long phrase.
To have much hope of playing with a piper you'd be wise to practice with a metronome slowly, because the metronome is pretty much universally considered an essential tool in the GHB pipe world. The rhythmic complexity of good Highland piping is of an order above any other musical form I've encountered. Not IMO better as a value judgement, because rhythmic complexity is not by its very nature any 'better', just different.
A highland pipers fingers are beating complex rhythmical patterns in a very small amount of time. This is reflected in good Snare drumming where the bounce of stick on skin amplified by finger techniques can also actually match these patterns note for note.
# Posted on September 4th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Are you involved in any other forms of pipe? Probably not really.
I can think of some good ones, they're often inserted.
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by pavlf
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Holy sh1t.
I can't believe I just read that.
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
I know I said I wouldn't comment on this thread again but perhaps this will help with the original question of bowing better than anything else that can be offered. It is the third tune in the set:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xBstq9agT8
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Seems to miss out a lot of the tricky low G's like picopanpipe suggested. Seems to miss the first mid A lengthening the low G then jumping to the high G.
I suppose if thats the kind of thing you like then these short cuts allow you to approximate the tune, enough to get by , stick a few scales in and some slides and your away. Definitely not the kind of fiddling I'm interested in.
# Posted on September 5th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Most people do not realise how far 'Scottish folk Fiddling' has been influenced by classical music.As it exists today it is an 18thC creation developed by educated musicians most of whom were at home in Classical music culture.
This quote here creates 2 false categories;
>> A violin player will practice technique so that they can handle what a piece of music throws at them.
A fiddle player plays tunes, and simply gets better at playing tunes.<<
When the reality is there is a broad continuum that stretches between fiddler and violinist.
Fiddlers are quite free to practice any techniques they choose and to play whatever music they might fancy.
Being as how Scottish fiddle music [ I dont include Shetland in this broad generalisation, which of course it is ] has been so influenced by classical music, learning classical techniques to facilitate the playing of Scottish tunes on the fiddle seems to be traditional.
# Posted on September 6th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Ionannas - "To have much hope of playing with a piper you'd be wise to practice with a metronome slowly, because the metronome is pretty much universally considered an essential tool in the GHB pipe world. "
Essential tool? Yet again, utter rubbish. I've never heard of a piper practicing with a metronome.
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by bogman
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Also, your comments on Scottish fiddle are also way of the mark. Almost or probably ALL Scottish fiddlers will play this tune in Amix in the normal trad position. You would have to go to one hell of a lot of sessions to ever see a Scottish fiddler doing any different, I certainly haven't. And I would be confident in saying you will NEVER see a Scottish fiddler playing it in Emix
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by bogman
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
You've never heard of a piper playing with a metronome!!!? Now that is surprising.
Heres a quote from a piper, not me I hasten to add.;
>>The metronome is a harsh mistress but ALL SERIOUS MUSICIANS use them religiously.<<
Jim McGillivray>> I've always encouraged people to sing to the metronome. When I was competing, a couple of times a week I would pick up my trusty Taktel metronome and sing all my competitive material to it. I would double-time the marches (72 beats per minute became 144) and reels (88 beats per minute became 176). It would take me about half an hour to get through everything. The next day when I took my pipes out I played more rhythmically and with a better feel for what was happening on the beats and offbeats. I think this work made be a much more rhythmical player than I was naturally.>>
Now from a drummer[pat Methany group]
>>I'm a big advocate of practicing with a metronome to develop even and consistent time. >>
Whats this guy using on the line then?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sooAwHewSUc
How about this quote>>All gr1 bands use tuners and metronomes, >>
J mitchell. LA Scots. 40yrs exp.
Here they are:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qxvJ28W-7k
Jori Chisholm Has this to say;
>>Use a metronome to gradually increase your tempo<<practicing with a metronome helps reveal the passages in the tune where you might be inclined to speed up or slow down>>
Need I go on?
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
As far as the fiddle goes, you mistook my comment to refer to playing in 3rd position which is not at all uncommon for Scottish Fiddlers. What I was in fact referring to was the Classical techniques demonstrated in the video clips and used to play the tune in first position. The bowing techniques demonstrated are not found in any traditional Irish or Scottish music I have encountered. String crossing as demonstrated is however a typically used Classical technique. However if you'd like to link a traditional tune in its traditional key that does use this bowing Id be very interested.
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
I've no interest in isolated quotes from random pipers. Even less interest in drummer quotes. Using a metronome with the pipes is insanity. Subtle pulling and pushing of the rhythm is the only serious dynamic available to the pipes.
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by bogman
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
LOL Jori Chisholm, Jim McGillivray random pipers! Perhaps you might like to hear the results of their insanity, just you tube them. Oh dear, you really made me laugh there, get a grip. Two of the worlds greatest pipers are 'insane' !All the top world class, grade 1 pipe bands are insane!! And let me guess, you are not? You should get up there and show them all how its done eh ? Here you are, not even a fiddler making proclamations about fiddling. Now telling us that Internationally acclaimed pipers, the best in the world , are insane, whatever next.
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
"Here you are, not even a fiddler making proclamations about fiddling."
No, just warning innocents of your constant drivel.
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by bogman
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22obRTqXeTY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0eA1HZDIe4
Yes of course Bogman, thats it, Im the one spouting drivel. thanks for telling me. Only you were saying that these guys are insane for using metronomes and recommending them..... Hmmm...
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Yes, you constantly fill this site with drivel. Almost every subject is ruined by your bizarre approach to trad. Just because some American and Canadian pipers use a metronome does not make it right, no matter how good they are. They are only some of a vast number of world class pipers. Certainly I have never seen metronomes used, and I know that those who I consider to be the best in the world do not use metronomes.
Was it not yourself who earlier this year argued for playing the pipes minus the ornaments? And promoted Pakistan made pipes.
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by bogman
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
....and they are? Gordon Walker? Willie MacCullum? Allan MacDonald? who? Roddy MacLeod?
I was neither promoting Pakistani pipes, just countering racist generalisations, not was arguing for playing the pipes without ornaments, simply repeating the advice of a highly respected Piper, 'if in doubt, leave them out'.
I do not have a bizarre approach to trad, on the contrary, I live in Ireland and play with some of the best Irish musicians in the world, we have a remarkably similar approach to music. Which is hardly surprising. Kevin Burke recommends you use a metronome.I suppose his advice, which mirrors mine, and Jims, is insane is it? No bogman, its not us .
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
....and they are? - none of your business. Of those you mention Allan would be my favourite. You argued the Burke case before and got bombed out. I will always listen to and consider the opinions of players of the quality of those you mention, but I will warn people of your advice as you have proved beyond doubt you are not qualified to give it.
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by bogman
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
. yeah right bogman , and you, who dont even play the fiddle give great fiddle advice...
So you cant actually suggest anyone who has gone on record stating they dont recomend a metronome. Grand. no surprise there .
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Right I have had enough of this. Bogman may not play the fiddle but I would trust his fiddle advice sooner than I would trust yours Ionannas.
Leaving aside the fact that he has not offered any technical fiddle advice you do not necessarily need to be able to play a particular instrument in order to be able to offer general musical advice to players of it. All you need is a good musical mind. I, for example, would not dream of offering advice about bowing technique but I understand as well as anybody about changing keys by swapping strings and keeping the same fingerings.
I have met you Ionannas and it was lovely to do so. You struck me as a really nice and well meaning guy. On this forum however your attitude can be really poor and your advice, aside from being unusual, is wrapped up in hostility.
As I said you are a nice guy but Bogman is a musician of the first order and you are not. End of story.
# Posted on September 7th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
But Ionannas plays the guitar (midi electric and acoustic nylon strung - at which he is the glue that holds sessions together), fiddle, at least two kinds of bagpipes, mandolin, banjo, fretless bass, drums, cello, 5-string viola (various sizes), whistle ... and he sings. And he doesn't just play Irish and Scottish music, but middle eastern music, classical and rock. Not to mention a lot of scales.
Surely such a seasoned all rounder who plays with some of the best musicians in the world could not be anything more than a wealth of useful information?
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by ...
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
I could list my instruments as Guitar, Bouzouki, Tenor Guitar, Mandolin and Whistle(s) if I wanted to. But I dont. I used to play classical flute and I own a bodhran, didgeridoo, triangle and kazoo. I also play in sessions with some pretty incredible musicians but just playing with them does not guarantee me to be a wealth of useful information.
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Yeah, but could you say that you are the glue that holds some of the best musicians in the world together? Surely that would guarantee you to be a wealth of useful information?
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by ...
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
I would love to think so but I am sure they would be able to keep themselves together without me.
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Ah yes, the delicate subtleties of reality eh?
Would loves to think so.
Likes to think so.
Thinks so.
Is.
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by ...
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Bogman, what on earth has their nationality got to do with anything? Why even mention it? What possible relevance has their nationality to do with anything?
As far as No cause, well you are free to chose whosoever advice you want, you can follow mine, and Jim MacGilliivray, Kevin Burke, Jori Chisholm,etc etc or llig and Bogman, thats up to you. No skin of my nose .
I hasten to add that Bogman is in no way at the same level as Jim for example. Jim really is a musician of the first order no doubt about that whatsoever, if he says he advises using the metronome, then what conceit on my part would argue against it? none.
Jeez even bogmans drummer will use a metronome! Its completely standard procedure . Ahh but bogman is not interested in drummers advice.
Look the fact is that to play this tune on the fiddle requires techniques not found in traditional Irish music. Perhaps you might find it in Scottish fiddle music because it has been heavily influenced by Classical music. Its not a traditional tune. Its a modern Scotts tune, IMO It requires classical bowing techniques to even approach it as written.
Where you, or bogman fiddlers I might consider your comments as having validity. You are not, and to be honest, I dont. The fact that I assert my right to speak on this does not mean I am aggressive. In fact it was you, coming on her, telling me that I give bad advice that started our disagreement. talking about I might consider your opinion. What on earth are you even doing here? looking for trouble?
Enjoy your music.
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
(playground giggle giggle: "In fact it was you, coming on her")
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by ...
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
I am sorry but I know the drummer who plays with Bogman and there is no way he works to a metronome!
). Even listening to Kevin Burke's advice though I would balance it against the advice I have heard from others as even the best musicians can have differing opinions, particularly on technique.
"Where (sic.) you, or bogman fiddlers I might consider your comments as having validity. You are not, and to be honest, I dont."
Were you a great musician I might consider your comments as having validity. You are not, and to be honest, I dont.
If Kevin Burke, Jim McGillivray or Jori Chisholm were to offer me advice then of course I would listen to them (unless it was advice on the key of a tune from the last 2 as, as pipers they don't have a clue!
Having said that I can't think of any top traditional musicians that I know who use a metronome. It is possible that pipe bands might use them in order to check their tempo or for an adjudicator to check the tempo (I have no idea if they would though). Playing in a military style for pipe bands, etc however is not particularly traditional.
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Nationality - ok - I wrote "Ionannas - "To have much hope of playing with a piper you'd be wise to practice with a metronome slowly, because the metronome is pretty much universally considered an essential tool in the GHB pipe world. "
Essential tool? Yet again, utter rubbish. I've never heard of a piper practicing with a metronome."
How would I know or care if the folk you mention use a metronome? They are the other side of the water. I am simply stating the fact that I haven't seen it used here so your statement, "because the metronome is pretty much universally considered an essential tool in the GHB pipe world. ", is not true.
You seem to have this naive notion that if you can find quotes from respected musicians to back your personal beliefs then it is cast in stone. Everyone else's opinions are invalid.
Re: drummers advice. What the hell would Pat Mathany's drummer know about playing pipe tunes on a fiddle? When playing traditional music I do not use a drummer so I am not interested in your assumptions.
Re: fiddle advice. The only advice I have offered on this thread is play it in Amix, play it in the normal position. That doesn't require me to play the fiddle.
Re: metronome. You made a sweeping statement on the instrument I play which was untrue. 'Insane' was maybe the wrong word but compared to your nonsense on this thread it's barely worth considering.
Again you've filled a thread with off topic dross meaning that if the OP doesn't see through you he/she will be worse of than when they started. Why do you do this?
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by bogman
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Cross post there NCFA. And yes your right, the druumer I work with in my not so trad band does not work to a metronome or practice to a metronome. Though whatever jig\ionannas's assumption has to do with the thread I have no idea.
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by bogman
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Can I just point out the bleedingly obvious here -- that Pressed for Time is a Scottish pipe tune, rather than a fiddle tune, so the classical influence you see in some Scottish fiddle tunes (i.e. some of those Skinner strathspeys) has feck all to do with that one.
Back to your regularly scheduled row.
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
SS, to play it as written, requires classical bow crossing techniques that are not found in traditional music that I know of, Including JSS tunes. However being as how I play Irish trad there could be....
Bogman ; I already pointed out that to play in Emix or A mix are different by only a string. The tune then becomes one any trad fiddler could play easily. While as its written it requires Classical bow crossing techniques.
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
It's a long thread.
Anyway, clearly didn't take, as Ionannas asserted a couple posts ago that because the tune is a Scottish tune, you need classical violin techniques to play it.
BTW, the part of Scotland where Bogman lives has a long tradition of piping. It's hardly a backwater.
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Yes, a long metronomeless tradition.
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by bogman
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Of course it is a backwater for everything else!
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
I know Skye a bit and once it is reputed to have been a centre of Piobaireachd Highland piping, but its certainly a backwater! unless you live there I suppose.A metronome would hardly be of use in Piobaireachd of course.
It might be hard for some to take but GHB spread across the world with the Highland Diaspora and In fact its does seem that places like Nova Scotia, cape Breton, were home to a much more traditional style up to the 20th C compared to the 'British Army style' unfortunately prevalent most places nowadays.
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
In my post of 2nd September above I gave an outline description of a technique for crossing from the E string to the D without sounding the intermediate string (the A) and maintaining bow contact with the string at all times.
The last point is critically important, for if the bow loses contact with the strings and goes in the air during its transition from the high string to the lower then the timing of its final contact with the lower string is going to be inaccurate (unless you're very, very good!), and the start of the sound on that lower string will not be as precise as it should be.
The advantage of learning this technique is that it gives more precise and tidier bowing. Bouncing the bow across the strings tends to make for ragged string crossings, which is no good for quick playing either solo or in ensemble.
I would not call this technique "classical" - it is an advanced bowing technique (just as fast triples also are, for example) that common to all genres of fiddle/violin playing, and is therefore worth learning at some time. Being able to do it cleanly means that you do not need to transpose to another key or to go up the fingerboard as a work-around to avoid "awkward" string crossings. As I said in my previous post, to learn this bowing technique you really need the person-to-person guidance of an experienced player to show you how - the written word on this occasion isn't quite enough, there's too much fine detail which will vary from player to player.
My thoughts on going up the finger-board in Irish fiddle playing. There is only a handful of tunes in Irish fiddle music that require the player to go higher than the high b on the E-string. The high c' should be reachable without moving from the first position, and the only other notes that require a shift are c#', d' and (rarely) e'. You need only to go into the 3rd or 4th position for these notes.
What is not attractive in Irish fiddle music, to my ear, is going up the finger-board on the A-string, perhaps as a work-around for the situation that is the main subject of this discussion. My reason for this is that the tone colour of the notes on the A-string above e is too far removed from the tone colour of the same notes on the E-string, a tone colour which is so characteristic of the Irish fiddle. This change in tone colour high up on the A is, I suspect, the real reason why it is derogatorily described as "classical", and not because there is a position shift involved. I would also suggest that the only time you use a fingered e on the A-string should be when you're doing a 4th finger cut on the A-string, or sometimes when it is the highest weak note in a group of notes such as d-e-d; otherwise, the open e is played.
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Well come on, the MacCrimmon legend and all that. What about the MacArthurs and Mull? Many of the legends of the MacCrimmons have been exposed, sometimes brutally. What about the speckled pipe? A bundle of firewood according to the great R Reid.
What about Campsie and his research ? Sir Walter Scott, James logan, Angus Mackay....
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
There's plenty of jumps from notes on the D string to notes on the A string in Irish diddley music. plenty. Not sure how I do it, but do it I do ... often enough to have developed a technique for it. There's even one in the first bar of drowsy maggie.
Also Lazyhound, I can think of another couple of Irish diddley uses for the E with the pinky on the A string. When you want t slide up to or down from the E. And when you want to double stop it, play the two notes together, E with the pinky on the A string and open E string
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by ...
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Doh, There's plenty of jumps from notes on the D string to notes on the E string ....
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by ...
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
I do know the research you are talking about but it's beside the point. Regardless of whether or not there was a "college" of piping on Skye as per Angus Mackay's description, we do know that there were pipers on Skye.
However, when you cross the bridge at Kyle of Lochalsh, you have to pass through the border guards who search your vehicle and your person for metronomes.
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
ha cross post
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by ...
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
Lots of cross posts!
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
There was no bridge the first time I went to skye and the last time no one searched me so I think your making that up...
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Bowing techniques for "Pressed for Time"
I think you'll find that there are a number of cross-string jumps around, such as e-G-e, c-A,-B around (please don't ask me to identify specific tunes - I'm dreadful on names!). This bowing technique is worth learning in order to do these jumps cleanly, and I would think that the more advanced players do use it on occasion. It's probably below most players' radar because it doesn't occur in the tutor books (as far as I am aware), and is unlikely to get taught specifically in workshops, but that doesn't mean that it should be ignored.
It is possible for a fiddler to play Irish tunes fairly effectively without using rolls or bowed triples but think how much his playing is enhanced when he gets round to learning such techniques properly.
# Posted on September 8th 2009 by Trevor Jennings