I have been having a discussion with some friends regarding concentrating while playing, and just wondred what everyone's experience is.
I find that when I have to concentrate while playing I make the most errors. Usually I have to concentrate when I am tired or haven't practiced, or am not familiar enough with the tune. When I am on my game, my finger memory takes over and the music is lighter and my fingers are more accurate.
It happens often where I am playing a tune and I forget how the b part goes. I become concerned, but I find that if I sit back , relax and let my fingers go into the next part, I am pleasantly surprised that they knew just what to play!
How hard do you have to concentrate? Do you concentrate on every finger action. Or can you be an "observer of your own playing"? Can you play the main tune without concentrating yet zero in your attention to certain parts to create something different and exciting?
I learned a foreign language then went to that country. When I concentrated on every word spoken, I couldn't understand the sentence. I found that when I relaxed and absorbed the whole, I could understand perfectly.
I wonder if too much concentration is a hindrance.
Should the concentration take place in the muscle memory stage so that less is required while playing is sessions or otherwhere?
The answer is contained in the last sentence. To amplify - the key is slow practice, listening to everything you're doing, and, particularly if you're a fiddler, watching technique. Tricky bits should be looped until they're no longer tricky but are natural.
All this demands the patience of a saint, which very few of us have; we're most of us too impatient to get the tune up to speed and into a session. Sadly, there's no quick route to the top.
What is really fun about not having to concentrate on playing is that you can then listen to the wondrous blend of sounds that is the music. Auto-pilot plays your part so you can enjoy the whole.
You can also enjoy the dancers and their art. You can take in the entire experience from the symphony to the enjoyment on the faces of those in the range of the sound. You can interpret the cues displayed consciously or not of your mates in the circle. You can even keep an eye out for dangers in the pub.
Freely float in the tuneoverse, you must. [/Yoda voice]
We've talked about this before on here. If you're concentrating and struggling hard, eyes pressed closed, white knucles, etc. then your music will sound that way too.
If you're relaxed, effortless, fully in the tune, then your music will be as well.
How to get relaxed and effortless? Do it over and over again.
I find when I have a really thorough command of a tune (or delude myself that do), I have more fun with variations and try new things on the fly. Unfortunately, I often then screw THOSE up. My apologies to everyone who’s ever sat next to me.
I suspect that you are not really "concentrating" when you are tired or playing a tune that is unfamiliar, rather you are attending to several tasks at the same time and thus you can't do any of them well.
Granted there are those who have ear to finger talents but most of the time you have to process that sort of task which leaves a lot of openings for error.
At its most sublime, playing music is a zone experience. By that I mean you are simply playing with no effort, may even be observing your own play in an altered state, and you make no mistakes. A lot of performers reach this state at some time.
As mentioned above, relaxation is a key to this state, but also having the tune and the music down solid helps a lot.
I've had times when I've just zoned out while playing and then suddenly come to a few minutes later. It's a bit like driving a car and that experience of suddenly wondering how you've got to a certain place. I think it happens when you're doing something familiar (ie the music / the journey in the car) as I've not had this happen with music that's new to me.
I've often been intrigued about what it sounds like when I'm playing during these lapses of being fully present - but the pressure of (for example) recording a piece usually means you're concentrating too much to allow these lapses to happen. But recently I had it happen during a recording I was doing to test out some equipment, and on playing the recording back, it sounded as if the music went a bit ragged.
I don't think that's the same quality of being in the zone that some people talk about - which is I think about heightened attention rather than no attention at all!
The best experiences, for me, are when I can concentrate on what other people are doing, and I can hear them listening to me. Just as you described above, feardearg. I think this happens when you have both the tune and the music in your head, your heart and your fingers.
When playing a tune, it only really works if I can do it without focussing. When playing bass, I rarely have the time to properly zone out, because I play by ear and have to pick up any variation the guitar player decides might be a good idea.
I don't know if is as much "zoned out". One is still in the music and aware, indeed more aware, of the music when letting go of concentration can be achieved.
Can you raise your foot or call out a tune name or yell at the guitar player, I mean tell the guitar player he is in the wrong key (if that is possible. Another discussion) or order a refill if you must needs concentrate. Yet how many of us can do these?
Can you casually decide what tune will come next in the set, having considered rhythm and key and, having recalled the first few notes* and determining that you will be able to make a smooth transition to the tune, even after considering who else in the circle is familiar with that tune? And all this as you are playing a tune that is melodically complex.
* Recalling the first few notes of the next tune while playing another. It's like hearing in your head one tune while playing another.
I was told a story of a Scottish piper I know who was playing on the stage with his brother (also a piper) at Sabhal Mor Ostaig on Skye presumably on border pipes. They played one long set for possibly an hour. Every now and again he leaned towards his brother and lilted the next tune whilst still playing their current one. They would then make a smooth transition. I wish I had been there to see it.
Being a child of the internet with no time to spare, I've been known to sit in front of my computer, get down to a big block of text, and then read the whole page while playing. I can't say much for the inspiration of that music, but at least I'm physically capable of making the appropriate motions to produce the sound.
I do have "zone" moments, but I would actually call them extreme concentration moments. As mikeyes suggested, it's actually like watching oneself play sometimes. "Oh, that was nice. Didn't see that coming. Hmm, interesting..."
It's kind of a zen thing (despite my screen name, I hate saying that) but definitely ego is removed. You don't concentrate on "not making mistakes," you just play right at the edge of your abilities. Your only thought is for the music, not about how you look or sound to somebody else.
"you are attending to several tasks at the same time and thus you can't do any of them well".
What other tasks do you think one does, Mike?"
In the case of not knowing the tune, at least three: listening for the tune, trying to figure out how to translate it to the instrument, and trying to make it sound like it is Irish music.
On the latter, that;s what I mean by "the music" as one can play the tune and still not get the music.
In sports when someone "tries too hard" they usually trigger opposing muscles in the process and there is a net loss of strength or seped.
In the case of playing in a session in which you don't know the music there is the added factor of performance anxiety which will activate muscles that you don't need when you play. By relaxing you only use the muscles needed and become more efficient. Dealing with performance anxiety, even in a small scale such as this is also another task that has to be performed.
In the Zone experience - which is universally reported this way in a variety of performance arts and skills - the person is either concentrating on one thing or none at all. It is not "zoning out" as if you were semi-conscious but an altered state. Such a state is not that uncommon, a lot of people do it when reading or watching TV. They lose track of time and feel very relaxed afterwards. But artists, athletes, writers and a host of others who focus on a task will tell you that they will sometimes reach this state. It occurs more often the better you are at what you do.
There have been plenty of EEG and (f)MR studies (it is much like meditation) showing that this is a brain phenomenon.
The same thing can occur when an expert watches another expert in the field perform although in this case the mirror neurons are firing away like mad.
I've often found myself in a situation playing the pipes when I've felt as if I could sort of ease out of them and maybe nip to the bar and back without the pipes stopping. It takes an effort of will to keep that zen moment going without falling off the tune altogether.
When practising the fiddle, on the other hand, I sometimes find myself asleep. Still playing.
After a very guinness-y bout of playing in Ireland I found myself having a conversation while playing - and now I know it's possible, it's a trick I can still pull off. OK it's still difficult to do that and play at the same time, and would be impossible on a wind instrument!
But I was playing in a concert last night and was conscious of thinking about whether I'd drop the next piece or not, while about 3/4 of the way through the one I was playing - so for that moment I wasn't concentrating on what I was doing.
I've gotta chime in on this one. At the moment I'm very aware of developing the skill/ability to play one tune while thinking of something else. Thinking "now how does that start?" is the hardest. Being a flutie, I'm limited to what else I can do. Nodding to the barkeep (similar to placing an auction bid I'd think) or pantomime about the next tune is about it. But sometimes I'll catch myself thinking something completely different, like "I wonder if I closed the garage door?" Those things I'd classify as autopilot things.
But then there's true "flow" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology))
where I'm thinking so deeply (note I didn't say concentrating so hard?) about the music that it's just grand. It happens when I'm playing along with a singer mostly, trying to make the flute sound like a duet rather than accompanyment. I'm not zoned out, but am not thinking of the mechanical act of playing either. I'm thinking things like "Should I get louder or softer?" "Should I hold this note longer?" "Am I sharp or flat?" and "What fun we're having."
I think that's almost the opposite of autopilot, I'm so into the moment of the music in may different ways.
I think the worst thing is the "Auto pilot" thing. You hear it all the time in sessions. Makes me want to reach under the table and kick the offenders hard in the shins. "WAKE UP YOU FECKIN WASTE OF SPACE."
I know you will want to develop your argument further, llig. I am at my chair's edge in true anticipation. I know you will present ideas I haven't thought of oe considered.
If you play the tune the same way every time, or even the same
set of variations on the tune the same way, then you could be
on autopilot. I guess that's what you're talking about Llig.
I found in my classical music days, I could be in that state but at the
same time following the conductor and staying synchronised with other
players. It's just the mechanics of playing that were pushed into the
background.
So...I think the autopilot thing seems to apply to tunes you know really well, and that business of "flow" that cjp mentions is the opposite - a desirable state.
What Llig so elegantly mentions is something like the instance where I went into Autopilot when playing and on hearing the recording back, it sounded ragged.
The flow thing - that's really grand when you experience it, and I think it's about a different consciousness altogether.
There's a couple of ways you can treat the music. You can be a collector, a phillatalist, You can tick the tunes off. You can have an attitude of, "That one's in the bag". etc.
Or you can treat it as constant invention.
Playing music can be like driving. You have a set of motor skills and awareness senses that keep you on the road and stop you crashing into to things.
Or you can be inventive. Proactive. Interested and therefore interesting.
I was in this session in Ballygob sitting next to a piper. For some reason he left his pipes and went to the bar. I play the mandolin but have always wondered what it was like to play a set of uilleann pipes. The pipes were sitting there on the chair for a least 20 minutes and I thought I must have a go. I couldn't stop myself, although I know you shouldn't touch someone elses instrument without asking, especially a set of pipes, but I didn't care about the consequences as the urge was so strong. so I strapped them on and although I've never played anything but the mandolin and a bit of piano, I was able to make them sound, and suddenly I was piping!! I played the Bucks of Oranmore, Colonel Frazer and the Flogging reel. I was like in the zone, my fingers just played. I sounded like Johnny Doran, everyone was amazed. I couldn't believe it and then...I woke up
Playing "in the zone" is where creativity happens. That's where I can start exploring a tune, finding new variations, and the tune flows. Playing on autopilot is what happens when I am totally knackered from a long day climbing or at the end of a long sleep deprived festival, sitting at a session and just going through the motions of playing a tune. That's when I think, "This is some pretty uninspired piping today" (not that my piping is ever very inspired, to be fair, so maybe more uninspired than usual).
In the case of the former, you are zoned out but mindful of you're playing. In the case of the latter, you are zoned out but not zoning into you're playing.
Then there is the other scenario, being mindful of one's playing but not in a good way. This is when you're concentrating on issues like, "How does this tune go" or "Dear lord, don't let me f u c k up this tune because Liam O'Flynn is at the bar listening to this session." In this case you're paying attention to your playing, concentrating on it, but you're not letting it flow. In fact, you're concentration and concern about it usually impair the tune's flow; as a result you sound stiff and awkward.
Interesting thread. Most noticable when one is experienced on one instrument and learning another.
When one is experienced, one gets past concentration. In my case, as in the refernce to Descarte, Concetration kills. Too focused on the mechancs.
Which is why when learning, you are aware of the concentration because you are focusing on many things, but not doing any really well. I read where someone said there is no true multi-tasking, just being able to move from single focus to another focus very quickly and having memory retention enough to pick up on where you left off.
When I am on (which seems to happen on my money job insturment alot more these days-boredom or indifference I guess) it is as though the music is swirling around and my part is just happening. I used to call it my 'zone' but having learned some from Ilig, I realize it's a bit more than that.
I am struggling with that on the box.... There are moments when the flow happens. Then I sit in front of John and play and it all sounds tense and like c**p.
On sunday mornings, I will play some nice preludes at Church- they will be very pretty, Then when we start the boiler plate of the service, particularly when the liturginazi (aka the 'boss') is the cantor, I will make mistakes that I haven't made since Christ was a carpenter. I am concentrating instead of letting the music flow. Sometimes, on music i really really dislike and know the liturginazi really really loves, it almost feels like my field of vision decreases to a narrow tunnel. I am dead when that happens.
But when it is 'there' is can be a beautiful thing.
Jill Bolte Taylor ~ "A Stroke of Insight"
"The harder I tried to concentrate, the more fleeting my ideas seemed to be. Instead of finding answers and information, I met a growing sense of peace.
As the language centers in my left hemisphere grew increasingly silent, my consciousness soared into an all-knowingness, a "being at one" with the universe,
if you will. In a compelling sort of way, it felt like the good road home and I liked it."
Right Ian. If I understood Llig's post correctly [which I did] there's a place and reason for concentration and a place for inventiveness. Sunday driving ain't the place for the latter, but good session playing --spontaneous, fun, daring, taking chances [as Llig alluded to in some previous post on bowing and mixing/changing it up and seeing where it would take him]-- is.
Though you could get cases of session road rage breaking out from ill-advised maneuvers, especially if they cause musical accidents. "That clod sideswiped my reel!"
Adventure without recklessness is what we're after, I suppose.
To stretch the analogy and be a bit presumptuous, I wager this is what he means when Llig says most session music is pretty bad. Lots of folks driving in a line behind Grandma on Sunday, doing about half the speed limit on a very straight, long and boring road...
swfl:
you must become your fiddle & let your fiddle become you. You must Inherit its essential fiddleness, its wood, rosin and glue and become an F hole [no slander implied]. Then and only then will your inner strings vibrate with the universe!
They reckon 10,000 hours playing to be a competant musician (in any genre) - thats 3 hours a day, every day for 10 years.
When you have your 20,000 hours licence, you will be able to hold a conversation and play.
It takes much longer to reach 30,000 hours as you do less practise and need time away from playing.
Sorry, I didn't read all of the wisdom from above.
First - know the tune.
Second - Play it as if you were singing it- it's your voice, after all.
The more you think about your mechanical actions, the more you over analyze them, thus, your brain gets in the way of what you'd like to say.
This all happens in a micro second, but unfortunately if there's a recorder about, you may regret your actions. My advice, and actually what I do is to imagine a beautiful hilltop with Julie Andrews singing, I'm getting a lot of money for playing the flute, it's nice weather, there's no war or taxes, and I'm able to play what my imagination visualizes, and the republicans agree with democrats (USA) and are signing off on healthcare for all!
Otherwise, listen to Cormac Breatnach and steal every f*cking thing you can from him because he's a genius, and be satisfied.
Great replies! Makes me realise that most of the things we do, we do without concentrating - we do them automatically, without thinking about the intention (ie why we are doing them) or the effect of doing what we do. By playing music I wonder if our attention to what's going on around us feeds into our other, more everyday activities?
The muso wasn't concentrating on the job in hand,
They'd played those sets ten thousand times, they'd fairly cloned the band;
"It's just another Groundhog Night", he thought in his despair,
And he looked around for groundhogs, but the groundhogs were not there
I like that saying. I remember when Brian Eno left Roxy Music. He said at the time it was over artistic differences. But later, he admitted it was because he was on stage doing a gig and he caught himself thinking about his laundry.
anyone remember that track on Randal Bays album...was it the House to House cd? where he makes a mistake and then laughs and admits he was 'thinking about the damned election'.....I guess not too far from laundry. ;)
good anecdote Michael. I liked that one.
Faux....was your use of "steer" in your bull analogy an inadvertent pun? or merely brilliantly clever word play? I'll attribute it to the latter. ha.
Yes, mtodd, my deliberate misuse and abuse of the word "steer" was intended to be an atrociously clever pun.
A certain fiddler's comment about "from codswallop to cow paddies" has reminded me of a song I heard about some farmboys who are playing baseball in a cow pasture. One of them mistakes a small pile of cow manure for second base and attempts to slide into the base. Instead of stopping at second base, the boy just keeps on sliding and sliding and sliding.
Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
I have been having a discussion with some friends regarding concentrating while playing, and just wondred what everyone's experience is.
I find that when I have to concentrate while playing I make the most errors. Usually I have to concentrate when I am tired or haven't practiced, or am not familiar enough with the tune. When I am on my game, my finger memory takes over and the music is lighter and my fingers are more accurate.
It happens often where I am playing a tune and I forget how the b part goes. I become concerned, but I find that if I sit back , relax and let my fingers go into the next part, I am pleasantly surprised that they knew just what to play!
How hard do you have to concentrate? Do you concentrate on every finger action. Or can you be an "observer of your own playing"? Can you play the main tune without concentrating yet zero in your attention to certain parts to create something different and exciting?
I learned a foreign language then went to that country. When I concentrated on every word spoken, I couldn't understand the sentence. I found that when I relaxed and absorbed the whole, I could understand perfectly.
I wonder if too much concentration is a hindrance.
Should the concentration take place in the muscle memory stage so that less is required while playing is sessions or otherwhere?
# Posted on August 31st 2009 by feardearg
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
A piper friend (who is also a professional symphony musician) took a cue from René Descartes with this distillation:
I think, therefore I clam.
# Posted on August 31st 2009 by Jumper
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
The answer is contained in the last sentence. To amplify - the key is slow practice, listening to everything you're doing, and, particularly if you're a fiddler, watching technique. Tricky bits should be looped until they're no longer tricky but are natural.
All this demands the patience of a saint, which very few of us have; we're most of us too impatient to get the tune up to speed and into a session. Sadly, there's no quick route to the top.
# Posted on August 31st 2009 by lazyhound
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
... last sentence of feardag's post.
# Posted on August 31st 2009 by lazyhound
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
What is really fun about not having to concentrate on playing is that you can then listen to the wondrous blend of sounds that is the music. Auto-pilot plays your part so you can enjoy the whole.
You can also enjoy the dancers and their art. You can take in the entire experience from the symphony to the enjoyment on the faces of those in the range of the sound. You can interpret the cues displayed consciously or not of your mates in the circle. You can even keep an eye out for dangers in the pub.
# Posted on August 31st 2009 by feardearg
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
Freely float in the tuneoverse, you must. [/Yoda voice]
We've talked about this before on here. If you're concentrating and struggling hard, eyes pressed closed, white knucles, etc. then your music will sound that way too.
If you're relaxed, effortless, fully in the tune, then your music will be as well.
How to get relaxed and effortless? Do it over and over again.
# Posted on August 31st 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
I find when I have a really thorough command of a tune (or delude myself that do), I have more fun with variations and try new things on the fly. Unfortunately, I often then screw THOSE up. My apologies to everyone who’s ever sat next to me.
# Posted on August 31st 2009 by fidkid
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
that I do
# Posted on August 31st 2009 by fidkid
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
I suspect that you are not really "concentrating" when you are tired or playing a tune that is unfamiliar, rather you are attending to several tasks at the same time and thus you can't do any of them well.
Granted there are those who have ear to finger talents but most of the time you have to process that sort of task which leaves a lot of openings for error.
At its most sublime, playing music is a zone experience. By that I mean you are simply playing with no effort, may even be observing your own play in an altered state, and you make no mistakes. A lot of performers reach this state at some time.
As mentioned above, relaxation is a key to this state, but also having the tune and the music down solid helps a lot.
Mike Keyes
http://www.mikekeyes.com
# Posted on August 31st 2009 by mikeyes
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
"you are attending to several tasks at the same time and thus you can't do any of them well".
What other tasks do you think one does, Mike?
# Posted on August 31st 2009 by feardearg
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
"Having the tune and the music down solid helps a lot".
Interesting that you would mention the tune and the music separately.
# Posted on August 31st 2009 by feardearg
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
I've had times when I've just zoned out while playing and then suddenly come to a few minutes later. It's a bit like driving a car and that experience of suddenly wondering how you've got to a certain place. I think it happens when you're doing something familiar (ie the music / the journey in the car) as I've not had this happen with music that's new to me.
I've often been intrigued about what it sounds like when I'm playing during these lapses of being fully present - but the pressure of (for example) recording a piece usually means you're concentrating too much to allow these lapses to happen. But recently I had it happen during a recording I was doing to test out some equipment, and on playing the recording back, it sounded as if the music went a bit ragged.
I don't think that's the same quality of being in the zone that some people talk about - which is I think about heightened attention rather than no attention at all!
# Posted on August 31st 2009 by Mark Harmer
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
The best experiences, for me, are when I can concentrate on what other people are doing, and I can hear them listening to me. Just as you described above, feardearg. I think this happens when you have both the tune and the music in your head, your heart and your fingers.
# Posted on August 31st 2009 by fidkid
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
""you are attending to several tasks at the same time and thus you can't do any of them well".
What other tasks do you think one does, Mike?"
Perhaps driving a car?
# Posted on August 31st 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
When playing a tune, it only really works if I can do it without focussing. When playing bass, I rarely have the time to properly zone out, because I play by ear and have to pick up any variation the guitar player decides might be a good idea.
# Posted on August 31st 2009 by kasperl
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
I don't know if is as much "zoned out". One is still in the music and aware, indeed more aware, of the music when letting go of concentration can be achieved.
Can you raise your foot or call out a tune name or yell at the guitar player, I mean tell the guitar player he is in the wrong key (if that is possible. Another discussion) or order a refill if you must needs concentrate. Yet how many of us can do these?
Can you casually decide what tune will come next in the set, having considered rhythm and key and, having recalled the first few notes* and determining that you will be able to make a smooth transition to the tune, even after considering who else in the circle is familiar with that tune? And all this as you are playing a tune that is melodically complex.
* Recalling the first few notes of the next tune while playing another. It's like hearing in your head one tune while playing another.
This is astonishing. How is all this possible?
# Posted on August 31st 2009 by feardearg
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
Shame on you, No Cause. That's another thread. (or is it?)
Yes it is.
# Posted on August 31st 2009 by feardearg
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
I was told a story of a Scottish piper I know who was playing on the stage with his brother (also a piper) at Sabhal Mor Ostaig on Skye presumably on border pipes. They played one long set for possibly an hour. Every now and again he leaned towards his brother and lilted the next tune whilst still playing their current one. They would then make a smooth transition. I wish I had been there to see it.
# Posted on August 31st 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
Being a child of the internet with no time to spare, I've been known to sit in front of my computer, get down to a big block of text, and then read the whole page while playing. I can't say much for the inspiration of that music, but at least I'm physically capable of making the appropriate motions to produce the sound.
I do have "zone" moments, but I would actually call them extreme concentration moments. As mikeyes suggested, it's actually like watching oneself play sometimes. "Oh, that was nice. Didn't see that coming. Hmm, interesting..."
# Posted on August 31st 2009 by Danjo
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
It's kind of a zen thing (despite my screen name, I hate saying that) but definitely ego is removed. You don't concentrate on "not making mistakes," you just play right at the edge of your abilities. Your only thought is for the music, not about how you look or sound to somebody else.
# Posted on August 31st 2009 by TaoCat
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
"you are attending to several tasks at the same time and thus you can't do any of them well".
What other tasks do you think one does, Mike?"
In the case of not knowing the tune, at least three: listening for the tune, trying to figure out how to translate it to the instrument, and trying to make it sound like it is Irish music.
On the latter, that;s what I mean by "the music" as one can play the tune and still not get the music.
In sports when someone "tries too hard" they usually trigger opposing muscles in the process and there is a net loss of strength or seped.
In the case of playing in a session in which you don't know the music there is the added factor of performance anxiety which will activate muscles that you don't need when you play. By relaxing you only use the muscles needed and become more efficient. Dealing with performance anxiety, even in a small scale such as this is also another task that has to be performed.
In the Zone experience - which is universally reported this way in a variety of performance arts and skills - the person is either concentrating on one thing or none at all. It is not "zoning out" as if you were semi-conscious but an altered state. Such a state is not that uncommon, a lot of people do it when reading or watching TV. They lose track of time and feel very relaxed afterwards. But artists, athletes, writers and a host of others who focus on a task will tell you that they will sometimes reach this state. It occurs more often the better you are at what you do.
There have been plenty of EEG and (f)MR studies (it is much like meditation) showing that this is a brain phenomenon.
The same thing can occur when an expert watches another expert in the field perform although in this case the mirror neurons are firing away like mad.
Mike Keyes
Http://www.mikekeyes.com
# Posted on August 31st 2009 by mikeyes
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
I've often found myself in a situation playing the pipes when I've felt as if I could sort of ease out of them and maybe nip to the bar and back without the pipes stopping. It takes an effort of will to keep that zen moment going without falling off the tune altogether.
When practising the fiddle, on the other hand, I sometimes find myself asleep. Still playing.
# Posted on August 31st 2009 by gam
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
Playing while asleep:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/14405
I wondered about that a while back.
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by feardearg
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
After a very guinness-y bout of playing in Ireland I found myself having a conversation while playing - and now I know it's possible, it's a trick I can still pull off. OK it's still difficult to do that and play at the same time, and would be impossible on a wind instrument!
But I was playing in a concert last night and was conscious of thinking about whether I'd drop the next piece or not, while about 3/4 of the way through the one I was playing - so for that moment I wasn't concentrating on what I was doing.
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by Mark Harmer
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
I've gotta chime in on this one. At the moment I'm very aware of developing the skill/ability to play one tune while thinking of something else. Thinking "now how does that start?" is the hardest. Being a flutie, I'm limited to what else I can do. Nodding to the barkeep (similar to placing an auction bid I'd think) or pantomime about the next tune is about it. But sometimes I'll catch myself thinking something completely different, like "I wonder if I closed the garage door?" Those things I'd classify as autopilot things.
But then there's true "flow" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology))
where I'm thinking so deeply (note I didn't say concentrating so hard?) about the music that it's just grand. It happens when I'm playing along with a singer mostly, trying to make the flute sound like a duet rather than accompanyment. I'm not zoned out, but am not thinking of the mechanical act of playing either. I'm thinking things like "Should I get louder or softer?" "Should I hold this note longer?" "Am I sharp or flat?" and "What fun we're having."
I think that's almost the opposite of autopilot, I'm so into the moment of the music in may different ways.
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by cjp
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
Heck of a lot of codswallop on this thread.
I think the worst thing is the "Auto pilot" thing. You hear it all the time in sessions. Makes me want to reach under the table and kick the offenders hard in the shins. "WAKE UP YOU FECKIN WASTE OF SPACE."
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
I know you will want to develop your argument further, llig. I am at my chair's edge in true anticipation. I know you will present ideas I haven't thought of oe considered.
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by feardearg
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
If you play the tune the same way every time, or even the same
set of variations on the tune the same way, then you could be
on autopilot. I guess that's what you're talking about Llig.
I found in my classical music days, I could be in that state but at the
same time following the conductor and staying synchronised with other
players. It's just the mechanics of playing that were pushed into the
background.
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by Hup
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
So...I think the autopilot thing seems to apply to tunes you know really well, and that business of "flow" that cjp mentions is the opposite - a desirable state.
What Llig so elegantly mentions is something like the instance where I went into Autopilot when playing and on hearing the recording back, it sounded ragged.
The flow thing - that's really grand when you experience it, and I think it's about a different consciousness altogether.
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by Mark Harmer
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
There's a couple of ways you can treat the music. You can be a collector, a phillatalist, You can tick the tunes off. You can have an attitude of, "That one's in the bag". etc.
Or you can treat it as constant invention.
Playing music can be like driving. You have a set of motor skills and awareness senses that keep you on the road and stop you crashing into to things.
Or you can be inventive. Proactive. Interested and therefore interesting.
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
I was in this session in Ballygob sitting next to a piper. For some reason he left his pipes and went to the bar. I play the mandolin but have always wondered what it was like to play a set of uilleann pipes. The pipes were sitting there on the chair for a least 20 minutes and I thought I must have a go. I couldn't stop myself, although I know you shouldn't touch someone elses instrument without asking, especially a set of pipes, but I didn't care about the consequences as the urge was so strong. so I strapped them on and although I've never played anything but the mandolin and a bit of piano, I was able to make them sound, and suddenly I was piping!! I played the Bucks of Oranmore, Colonel Frazer and the Flogging reel. I was like in the zone, my fingers just played. I sounded like Johnny Doran, everyone was amazed. I couldn't believe it and then...I woke up
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by Steamwilkes
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
Like, dude... That's just so out there.
Playing "in the zone" is where creativity happens. That's where I can start exploring a tune, finding new variations, and the tune flows. Playing on autopilot is what happens when I am totally knackered from a long day climbing or at the end of a long sleep deprived festival, sitting at a session and just going through the motions of playing a tune. That's when I think, "This is some pretty uninspired piping today" (not that my piping is ever very inspired, to be fair, so maybe more uninspired than usual).
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
I should clarify...
In the case of the former, you are zoned out but mindful of you're playing. In the case of the latter, you are zoned out but not zoning into you're playing.
Then there is the other scenario, being mindful of one's playing but not in a good way. This is when you're concentrating on issues like, "How does this tune go" or "Dear lord, don't let me f u c k up this tune because Liam O'Flynn is at the bar listening to this session." In this case you're paying attention to your playing, concentrating on it, but you're not letting it flow. In fact, you're concentration and concern about it usually impair the tune's flow; as a result you sound stiff and awkward.
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
*your.... I can use English grammar and spelling!
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
Interesting thread. Most noticable when one is experienced on one instrument and learning another.
When one is experienced, one gets past concentration. In my case, as in the refernce to Descarte, Concetration kills. Too focused on the mechancs.
Which is why when learning, you are aware of the concentration because you are focusing on many things, but not doing any really well. I read where someone said there is no true multi-tasking, just being able to move from single focus to another focus very quickly and having memory retention enough to pick up on where you left off.
When I am on (which seems to happen on my money job insturment alot more these days-boredom or indifference I guess) it is as though the music is swirling around and my part is just happening. I used to call it my 'zone' but having learned some from Ilig, I realize it's a bit more than that.
I am struggling with that on the box.... There are moments when the flow happens. Then I sit in front of John and play and it all sounds tense and like c**p.
On sunday mornings, I will play some nice preludes at Church- they will be very pretty, Then when we start the boiler plate of the service, particularly when the liturginazi (aka the 'boss') is the cantor, I will make mistakes that I haven't made since Christ was a carpenter. I am concentrating instead of letting the music flow. Sometimes, on music i really really dislike and know the liturginazi really really loves, it almost feels like my field of vision decreases to a narrow tunnel. I am dead when that happens.
But when it is 'there' is can be a beautiful thing.
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by zippydw
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
I can't type. " When I am on (which seems .....money job intrument alot less...)"
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by zippydw
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
I think driving is the last place you'd want to be inventive....!
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by mtodd
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
That was the point of the analogy
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
Sadly there are far too many creative drivers and far too few creative players.
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by mtodd
Brain Science
Jill Bolte Taylor ~ "A Stroke of Insight"
"The harder I tried to concentrate, the more fleeting my ideas seemed to be. Instead of finding answers and information, I met a growing sense of peace.
As the language centers in my left hemisphere grew increasingly silent, my consciousness soared into an all-knowingness, a "being at one" with the universe,
if you will. In a compelling sort of way, it felt like the good road home and I liked it."
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by Random_notes
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
Ha! Yeah, driving...on Sunday...slowly...through the country...with Grandma at the wheel...people honking at and passing you...zzzzz....
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
Right Ian. If I understood Llig's post correctly [which I did] there's a place and reason for concentration and a place for inventiveness. Sunday driving ain't the place for the latter, but good session playing --spontaneous, fun, daring, taking chances [as Llig alluded to in some previous post on bowing and mixing/changing it up and seeing where it would take him]-- is.
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by mtodd
the discussion board can be a place of constant invention
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by Random_notes
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
you mean lies?
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by mtodd
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
...and much safer too!
Though you could get cases of session road rage breaking out from ill-advised maneuvers, especially if they cause musical accidents. "That clod sideswiped my reel!"
Adventure without recklessness is what we're after, I suppose.
To stretch the analogy and be a bit presumptuous, I wager this is what he means when Llig says most session music is pretty bad. Lots of folks driving in a line behind Grandma on Sunday, doing about half the speed limit on a very straight, long and boring road...
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
I think he'd say the fun is in the detours.
have we milked this analogy enough?
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by mtodd
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
Wait, hang on, just a few more times though. I've almost played all the variations I have.
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
concentrate!!!!
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by mtodd
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
HA HA! There is no spoon, Neo.
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
swfl:
you must become your fiddle & let your fiddle become you. You must Inherit its essential fiddleness, its wood, rosin and glue and become an F hole [no slander implied]. Then and only then will your inner strings vibrate with the universe!
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by mtodd
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
Hmm...my ex-wife thinks I'm a giant a-hole, does that count? [/Henny Youngman voice]
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
They reckon 10,000 hours playing to be a competant musician (in any genre) - thats 3 hours a day, every day for 10 years.
When you have your 20,000 hours licence, you will be able to hold a conversation and play.
It takes much longer to reach 30,000 hours as you do less practise and need time away from playing.
# Posted on September 1st 2009 by geoffwright
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
Sorry, I didn't read all of the wisdom from above.
First - know the tune.
Second - Play it as if you were singing it- it's your voice, after all.
The more you think about your mechanical actions, the more you over analyze them, thus, your brain gets in the way of what you'd like to say.
This all happens in a micro second, but unfortunately if there's a recorder about, you may regret your actions. My advice, and actually what I do is to imagine a beautiful hilltop with Julie Andrews singing, I'm getting a lot of money for playing the flute, it's nice weather, there's no war or taxes, and I'm able to play what my imagination visualizes, and the republicans agree with democrats (USA) and are signing off on healthcare for all!
Otherwise, listen to Cormac Breatnach and steal every f*cking thing you can from him because he's a genius, and be satisfied.
Good luck!
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by Toppish
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
Great replies! Makes me realise that most of the things we do, we do without concentrating - we do them automatically, without thinking about the intention (ie why we are doing them) or the effect of doing what we do. By playing music I wonder if our attention to what's going on around us feeds into our other, more everyday activities?
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by Mark Harmer
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
The muso wasn't concentrating on the job in hand,
They'd played those sets ten thousand times, they'd fairly cloned the band;
"It's just another Groundhog Night", he thought in his despair,
And he looked around for groundhogs, but the groundhogs were not there
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by nicholas
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
Sleeping at the wheel.
I like that saying. I remember when Brian Eno left Roxy Music. He said at the time it was over artistic differences. But later, he admitted it was because he was on stage doing a gig and he caught himself thinking about his laundry.
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
Mtodd,
no we haven't milked this analogy enough until everyone else is too "cowed" to make any more comments on it.
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
You must have the balls to take the bull by the horns and steer it recklessly through all of the detours.
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
vis a vis sleeping at the wheel....
anyone remember that track on Randal Bays album...was it the House to House cd? where he makes a mistake and then laughs and admits he was 'thinking about the damned election'.....I guess not too far from laundry. ;)
good anecdote Michael. I liked that one.
Faux....was your use of "steer" in your bull analogy an inadvertent pun? or merely brilliantly clever word play? I'll attribute it to the latter. ha.
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by mtodd
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
It appears this thread has migrated from codswallop to cow paddies...
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Playing Whilst Not Concentrating
Yes, mtodd, my deliberate misuse and abuse of the word "steer" was intended to be an atrociously clever pun.
A certain fiddler's comment about "from codswallop to cow paddies" has reminded me of a song I heard about some farmboys who are playing baseball in a cow pasture. One of them mistakes a small pile of cow manure for second base and attempts to slide into the base. Instead of stopping at second base, the boy just keeps on sliding and sliding and sliding.
# Posted on September 2nd 2009 by fauxcelt