Arrived back from the US of A to a recorded message from an old friend, needing a band for a family ceilidh on the 5th of September in Oxfordshire.
This is not a good time of year to be trying to rustle up any sort of band, and the half of mine that I have managed to contact can't do it.
Is anybody interested in a low-paid gig at this sort of notice for fun and publicity ?
Drop me a line and I'll give you more details.
Like saying "It's just the standard ITM repertoire" when you know how big that is - basically a barn dance repertoire, for a short expenses-only gig, for fun and frolics. I favour more the Irish and Scottish, but then that's why I'm on this forum. Jigs, reels, hornpipes, and an abililty to busk along. Just your everyday paragon, basically. LOL
Someone who can read would be an advantage, but we'll see how we go.
It takes many years of training and experience to become (say) a competent plumber.
Equally, it takes many years of practice and experience to become a competent musician.
So has anyone ever tried asking a plumber to do a job on an "expenses only" basis? I can imagine the reaction you might get! Most of of 'em want fifty quid just to turn up to see what is involved.
Most ceildh band musicians that I know get a lot less than MU rates, anyway.
So why is it that people always are always wanting musicians to work for nothing (or next to nothing)? Oddly, the same is true for IT engineers. Is anyone out there an IT engineer? If so, has anyone ever asked you (as a FOC favour) if you would mind looking at some problem that they have on their computer?
At the risk of being met by an avalanche of abuse, I would say the following:
Most people who become musicians do so because they are passionate about music. I could be wrong, but I doubt that the majority of plumbers are passionate about water pipes - for most, it's just a way of making a living. So people assume (at best, rightly) that musicians enjoy playing.
I do not wish, however, to justify unconditionally the expectation for musicians to play for nothing. What most people do not appreciate is 1. the amount of (unpaid) work that has gone into become the musician you are 2. the amount of work involved in traveling, loading and unloading and setting up for a gig and 3. the difference between playing what *you* want to play and playing what others want you to play (e.g. playing audience requests, playing for a dance caller etc.).
But there is a long tradition of musicians playing in return for food and drink, subject to the gener - the assumption being that hospitality and the satisfaction of playing are reward enough. Gigs for nothing don't often happen in cities, in my experience (even sessions usually have some paid musicians) but in small rural communities, this tradition often persists - playing music is seen as a voluntary service to the community.
Actually I have heard writers complain that they are often asked to write something "for charity", that all-encompassing expression. Public schools are usually charities, anyone want to write something for free for a public school ? No ? Whyever not ? How about playing a barn-dance then ?
But, yes, this was originally presented to me as an opportunity for a bit of publicity at an event with a lot of public present. Sadly, my own band can't do it at short notice, so I'm trying to get some other combo together, under the same terms. After all, most of us go to sessions with no thought of payment.
Regular barn dance gigs, fair enough. This is a one-off, full PA on stage, might meet some new and interesting musicians. Could be fun.
After all, I hauled a bouzouki across the Atlantic and back, on four different aircraft, for less promise then that, only a week ago. And it was worth it, had a great session, and made some good contacts, eventually.
So I'm up for it, as caller, bass-player, might get in a bit of bouzouki and bodhran as well.
Any volunteers ?
Well, Guernsey & Rags, I'll have to admit that I threw that comment in just to stir things up a bit and see if anyone would take the bait ...
I guess that we've all done this at sometime or other - perhaps in an unguarded moment, agreed to play on the basis of free food/drink etc - myself included! But whenever I do, I usually question the wisdom of it afterwards.
It's probably much better to be an artist or a sculptor, than a musician. Presumaby, artists/scluptors are also "passionate" about what they do, but no-one ever asks them to give away their works of art for nothing. That's because (unlike music) there is not yet a machine to clone a work of art.
"How much would the band cost?"
(You reply)
"Can't afford that - we'll use CDs"
That's the problem ...
But (ranting aside) I might nevertheless have had my arm twisted to pitch in and help out, but for the fact that my band already has a gig on the date in question ...
But surely if this gig is being offered on the basis of publicity (not forgetting the fun of course!) then the band should be paying your old friend,GP!
But removing tongue from cheek,as it were:if the cards are on the table at the start,this sort of thing is fair enough.
It's when people don't mention or are very vague about money that gets the goat.You can usually tell because it's the last thing they say after a big preamble about how great the gig is,the wonderful players who'll be there and what fantastic music it all is.
The publicity thing is such an old chestnut, and at the risk of re-roasting this, we've been asked this many times. Can you imagine how much publicity you could get for the x hundred you're giving up by not being paid much? We've thought about this one a lot, and come to the conclusion that the only publicity you really get is becoming known for doing gigs for very little money. This one has come to bite us in the bum recently, because we played for very little at a yearly local gig, and then when we've had enquiries from people who've seen us there, they're shocked that they have to pay more for us when "we do it for so little for that local gig". So we've stopped doing it.
BUT hope you find your band and sounds like fun. Sorry about the rant, just touched a nerve with me.
Charity gigs are a seperate issue. Unpaid or badly paid gigs are a right pain in the backside. I used to think that "its still money" etc etc and possibly might be "good publicity" - now I think that's total nonsense. The problem I'm afraid is that there are any number of amateur bands who will take less money or no money gladly, provide a poor standard of music to the non-discerning public and generally drag down musicians rates of pay.
I have to agree with Mark & Choonz, and also admit that I'm one of the guilty parties. I've had great fun playing unpaid gigs, but there comes a point where people just take the p*ss.
I played a session a few weeks ago as a last minute favour for a friend who normally runs it but couldn't make it. It was more to keep the momentum of the thing going, and I had to call round mates to get someone else to turn up (it had got a reputation as an unwelcoming session, so it took some convincing). The place was empty when I got there, and it took over an hour for my reinforcements to arrive, as they were driving over an hour just to attend. The manageress didn't even deign to provide free drinks, even though we started to pull in punters who were interacting with the musicians, and even calling their mates and holding up their mobile phones to the music. It was somewhat satisfying that once we had left so did every single punter in the pub - it was completely empty within ten minutes of us finishing up.
Having said that, there have also been a few more pleasant and memorable experiences, but I'm starting to get that 'S*d this!' attitude as well.
Slightly off-topic, but there is a very large body of amateur musicians, both orchestral and choral, who give thousands of concerts per year in the UK. They're all doing it for the love of music, as an unspoken service to society at large - and incidentally as a social meeting group for their own benefit. But some of these amateur orchestras do have a professional conductor, and perhaps a professional leader, who get paid per rehearsal / concert. The professional soloists they engage for concerts do of course get paid.
However, where the amateur music groups score heavily over the professional orchestras is that they are not constrained by commercial forces in their choice of music, so they get to play music that rarely gets played by the big orchestras.
The good news is that I have a band now, thanks for all input, good and bad, what this forum is all about is discussion, and I'm always ready for a bit of that.
Handel's Messiah........
Pete, funny you should say that! In October I've got a gig for a barn dance on a Saturday, and on the next day I'll be in a chamber orchestra playing Handel's Messiah in a church.
No peace for the wicked.
Short-notice gig in Oxfordshire.
Short-notice gig in Oxfordshire.
Arrived back from the US of A to a recorded message from an old friend, needing a band for a family ceilidh on the 5th of September in Oxfordshire.
This is not a good time of year to be trying to rustle up any sort of band, and the half of mine that I have managed to contact can't do it.
Is anybody interested in a low-paid gig at this sort of notice for fun and publicity ?
Drop me a line and I'll give you more details.
# Posted on August 21st 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Short-notice gig in Oxfordshire.
Pete - you might find one on Mudcat.
Sue
# Posted on August 22nd 2009 by suesinger
Re: Short-notice gig in Oxfordshire.
What kind of thing are you after? Trad Irish? English?
I'll point a couple of friends to this thread.
# Posted on August 22nd 2009 by Joe Wass
Re: Short-notice gig in Oxfordshire.
Like saying "It's just the standard ITM repertoire" when you know how big that is - basically a barn dance repertoire, for a short expenses-only gig, for fun and frolics. I favour more the Irish and Scottish, but then that's why I'm on this forum. Jigs, reels, hornpipes, and an abililty to busk along. Just your everyday paragon, basically. LOL
Someone who can read would be an advantage, but we'll see how we go.
# Posted on August 22nd 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Short-notice gig in Oxfordshire.
Hmm ....
It takes many years of training and experience to become (say) a competent plumber.
Equally, it takes many years of practice and experience to become a competent musician.
So has anyone ever tried asking a plumber to do a job on an "expenses only" basis? I can imagine the reaction you might get! Most of of 'em want fifty quid just to turn up to see what is involved.
Most ceildh band musicians that I know get a lot less than MU rates, anyway.
So why is it that people always are always wanting musicians to work for nothing (or next to nothing)? Oddly, the same is true for IT engineers. Is anyone out there an IT engineer? If so, has anyone ever asked you (as a FOC favour) if you would mind looking at some problem that they have on their computer?
Hmmm ...
(Answers on a postcard)
# Posted on August 22nd 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Short-notice gig in Oxfordshire.
At the risk of being met by an avalanche of abuse, I would say the following:
Most people who become musicians do so because they are passionate about music. I could be wrong, but I doubt that the majority of plumbers are passionate about water pipes - for most, it's just a way of making a living. So people assume (at best, rightly) that musicians enjoy playing.
I do not wish, however, to justify unconditionally the expectation for musicians to play for nothing. What most people do not appreciate is 1. the amount of (unpaid) work that has gone into become the musician you are 2. the amount of work involved in traveling, loading and unloading and setting up for a gig and 3. the difference between playing what *you* want to play and playing what others want you to play (e.g. playing audience requests, playing for a dance caller etc.).
But there is a long tradition of musicians playing in return for food and drink, subject to the gener - the assumption being that hospitality and the satisfaction of playing are reward enough. Gigs for nothing don't often happen in cities, in my experience (even sessions usually have some paid musicians) but in small rural communities, this tradition often persists - playing music is seen as a voluntary service to the community.
# Posted on August 22nd 2009 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: Short-notice gig in Oxfordshire.
"subject to the gener"
...subject to the generosity of the host
# Posted on August 22nd 2009 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: Short-notice gig in Oxfordshire.
Thank you for that, ragaman.
Actually I have heard writers complain that they are often asked to write something "for charity", that all-encompassing expression. Public schools are usually charities, anyone want to write something for free for a public school ? No ? Whyever not ? How about playing a barn-dance then ?
But, yes, this was originally presented to me as an opportunity for a bit of publicity at an event with a lot of public present. Sadly, my own band can't do it at short notice, so I'm trying to get some other combo together, under the same terms. After all, most of us go to sessions with no thought of payment.
Regular barn dance gigs, fair enough. This is a one-off, full PA on stage, might meet some new and interesting musicians. Could be fun.
After all, I hauled a bouzouki across the Atlantic and back, on four different aircraft, for less promise then that, only a week ago. And it was worth it, had a great session, and made some good contacts, eventually.
So I'm up for it, as caller, bass-player, might get in a bit of bouzouki and bodhran as well.
Any volunteers ?
# Posted on August 22nd 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Short-notice gig in Oxfordshire.
Well, Guernsey & Rags, I'll have to admit that I threw that comment in just to stir things up a bit and see if anyone would take the bait ...
I guess that we've all done this at sometime or other - perhaps in an unguarded moment, agreed to play on the basis of free food/drink etc - myself included! But whenever I do, I usually question the wisdom of it afterwards.
It's probably much better to be an artist or a sculptor, than a musician. Presumaby, artists/scluptors are also "passionate" about what they do, but no-one ever asks them to give away their works of art for nothing. That's because (unlike music) there is not yet a machine to clone a work of art.
"How much would the band cost?"
(You reply)
"Can't afford that - we'll use CDs"
That's the problem ...
But (ranting aside) I might nevertheless have had my arm twisted to pitch in and help out, but for the fact that my band already has a gig on the date in question ...
But good luck with it, anyway ...
# Posted on August 23rd 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Short-notice gig in Oxfordshire.
I'd be happy to do it if it were in any way practical for me. But I live in the middle of Wales and I don't drive.
# Posted on August 23rd 2009 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: Short-notice gig in Oxfordshire.
Try the Cymru School of motoring, Rags.
It's easy to spot their cars - thay all have LL plates ...
# Posted on August 23rd 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Short-notice gig in Oxfordshire.
If we get offered any gigs in Llandidoes, Rags, we'll certainly have you along with us as a guest musician ...
... and if they offer us any stale crusts of bread by way of payment, we'll let you have first choice ...
Not too likely, maybe - although we did do a gig in Caerdydd a few weeks ago ....
Thinks ....
Are the French "passionate" about their ownership of Bont Afron? If so, maybe they'll let us travel across it for nothing, next time ...
# Posted on August 23rd 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Short-notice gig in Oxfordshire.
But surely if this gig is being offered on the basis of publicity (not forgetting the fun of course!) then the band should be paying your old friend,GP!
But removing tongue from cheek,as it were:if the cards are on the table at the start,this sort of thing is fair enough.
It's when people don't mention or are very vague about money that gets the goat.You can usually tell because it's the last thing they say after a big preamble about how great the gig is,the wonderful players who'll be there and what fantastic music it all is.
Anyway,good luck with it,GP.
# Posted on August 23rd 2009 by biggus dave
Re: Short-notice gig in Oxfordshire.
Sounds like a blast!
The publicity thing is such an old chestnut, and at the risk of re-roasting this, we've been asked this many times. Can you imagine how much publicity you could get for the x hundred you're giving up by not being paid much? We've thought about this one a lot, and come to the conclusion that the only publicity you really get is becoming known for doing gigs for very little money. This one has come to bite us in the bum recently, because we played for very little at a yearly local gig, and then when we've had enquiries from people who've seen us there, they're shocked that they have to pay more for us when "we do it for so little for that local gig". So we've stopped doing it.
BUT hope you find your band and sounds like fun. Sorry about the rant, just touched a nerve with me.
# Posted on August 23rd 2009 by Mark Harmer
Re: Short-notice gig in Oxfordshire.
Charity gigs are a seperate issue. Unpaid or badly paid gigs are a right pain in the backside. I used to think that "its still money" etc etc and possibly might be "good publicity" - now I think that's total nonsense. The problem I'm afraid is that there are any number of amateur bands who will take less money or no money gladly, provide a poor standard of music to the non-discerning public and generally drag down musicians rates of pay.
# Posted on August 23rd 2009 by Choonz
Re: Short-notice gig in Oxfordshire.
I have to agree with Mark & Choonz, and also admit that I'm one of the guilty parties. I've had great fun playing unpaid gigs, but there comes a point where people just take the p*ss.
I played a session a few weeks ago as a last minute favour for a friend who normally runs it but couldn't make it. It was more to keep the momentum of the thing going, and I had to call round mates to get someone else to turn up (it had got a reputation as an unwelcoming session, so it took some convincing). The place was empty when I got there, and it took over an hour for my reinforcements to arrive, as they were driving over an hour just to attend. The manageress didn't even deign to provide free drinks, even though we started to pull in punters who were interacting with the musicians, and even calling their mates and holding up their mobile phones to the music. It was somewhat satisfying that once we had left so did every single punter in the pub - it was completely empty within ten minutes of us finishing up.
Having said that, there have also been a few more pleasant and memorable experiences, but I'm starting to get that 'S*d this!' attitude as well.
Eno
# Posted on August 24th 2009 by bc_box_player
Re: Short-notice gig in Oxfordshire.
Not that any of that is meant as a dig at you, Pete.
Best of luck with it.
# Posted on August 24th 2009 by bc_box_player
Re: Short-notice gig in Oxfordshire.
We mustn't forget that there are Members here who are trying to make a living as full-time musicians.
# Posted on August 24th 2009 by lazyhound
Re: Short-notice gig in Oxfordshire.
Slightly off-topic, but there is a very large body of amateur musicians, both orchestral and choral, who give thousands of concerts per year in the UK. They're all doing it for the love of music, as an unspoken service to society at large - and incidentally as a social meeting group for their own benefit. But some of these amateur orchestras do have a professional conductor, and perhaps a professional leader, who get paid per rehearsal / concert. The professional soloists they engage for concerts do of course get paid.
However, where the amateur music groups score heavily over the professional orchestras is that they are not constrained by commercial forces in their choice of music, so they get to play music that rarely gets played by the big orchestras.
# Posted on August 24th 2009 by lazyhound
Re: Short-notice gig in Oxfordshire.
....or Handel's Messiah........
The good news is that I have a band now, thanks for all input, good and bad, what this forum is all about is discussion, and I'm always ready for a bit of that.
# Posted on August 24th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Short-notice gig in Oxfordshire.
Handel's Messiah........
Pete, funny you should say that! In October I've got a gig for a barn dance on a Saturday, and on the next day I'll be in a chamber orchestra playing Handel's Messiah in a church.
No peace for the wicked.
# Posted on August 25th 2009 by lazyhound
Re: Short-notice gig in Oxfordshire.
At one of these two gigs that lazyhound mentioned, he is playing with my band - and its not the Handel gig!
# Posted on August 25th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian