I'm trying to do research about how emigration of Irish people has influenced traditional music. "Emigration" here refers to Irish emigration to America (19th&20th century).
I mostly thought of jazz influences on Irish music and vice-versa (e.g. swing backing). Were there any other striking influences (maybe also according to developments of instruments etc.)?
I'd be glad to get some responses. It would also be a great help if someone could recommend a useful journal or other sources for further research. Thanks in advance!
This book is extensive and revealing in regards to your topic, but just for the Boston area during the golden years of the Boston Irish dance halls, 1920s-1960s.
Illuminating comments from Paddy Cronin about having to hide his fiddle in Ireland because they'd make fun of traditional music there. "Backwards culchie music!" etc.
He was amazed to come to Boston in the 50s and be treated like a hero, with the music everywhere. In Ireland they'd make fun of him, all they wanted to hear was modern music.
It's the same with thePolish music tradition I grew up with. First generation in the States wanted no part of it. The problem with my Polish relatives was that so wanted to deny their heritage, they destroyed all the records (birth and vinyl as it were)
One of the Mustard Board's posters who is from Poland has been very kind in helping me on some personal family tracking. He shared with me some links to traditional Polish Music.
What I was impressed with was the similarities in the character of the Music, small group, playing fiddles, Music had a similar 'Zen' (for lack of a better word) to the ITM. Swedish traditional music is the same way. Rhythm was different, but the flow of was there.
But when I was a kid, eleven or twelve, I brought home a fiddle. My father and mother went through the roof. "No son of mine will play the violin." So I played piano. And now the box. (My perverse side is angry the he wasn't around to be in the house when I started learing the Box!)
Anyway. Probably a similar situation in Ireland in the 50's which is about the same time. The Europeans had all gone through two wars that brought them violently from what they viewed as an "older" culture into the "modern" era in the 50s.
In the Polish culture in the States, it seems that traditional music is completely gone. Even my 84 year old Sainted mother, 'the Polka Queen' as we call her, bemoans that the Polka bands are disappearing, and that there are no good accordion players left.
Herself would kill me if I went back the playing 'The Polish Stomp'. I'll stick to reels
Flip flop on that, zippy. Irish America had a kung fu grip on their music while it was being scorned in Ireland. Then America went ga-ga over The Clancy Bros, the 60s followed, the renaissance took off in Ireland, and all of a sudden, rural folks like Paddy Cronin playing traditional music were no longer bog trotting culchies.
Important musical history not to forget, I think. Especially when there's some eejit on here screaming about Yanks playing Irish music. "Why the hell not? It's not like y'all cared until The Clancies showed up on Ed Sullivan and got to sing for JFK.
The decline of Irish music in the 30s and 40s in Ireland was not the fault of the Irish people but the government and clergy of the time. Read this for more info:
One thing that emmigration did was that the Irish and Scotish families that settled in the Appalachian Mountains brought with them the foundations of American bluegrass and folk fiddle styles
so more than jazz influences on Irish music, which I see very little of honestly, the Irish music influenced the folk music here in the States.
The Irish roots are strong enough in old time fiddle music here in the states that an Irish musician could probably sit in at an old time fiddle session and probably know a good number of the tunes
SWFL - thanks for the heads up home-boy. I was once taken to task here on the session.org for suggesting that Irish music was kept alive here in America while it was on life-support back in Ireland during this period. csparpd makes a valid point that it was frowned upon and discouraged buy the establishment, but for the most part it was also seen as "culchie" music by the main populace as SWFL pointed out above.
"...and you shall be scorned in your own land. Therefore go unto the heathens and spread the good news."
The Gospel of Andrew McGann, 2:4
"First you must larn the Tok, and then you must larn the Grip, and then you must larn the Throkkily-How, and then you have the whole lot, only just to keep on practicing it"
Michael Coleman, James Morrison, 'Neilie' Boyle, Paddy Killoran, Peter Conlon are the names of a few Irish emmigrants, or Irish Americans in the case of Boyle,that had an impact on the music scene in America and Ireland. Good luck with your research!
No prob Jusa. I apologize for not rallying to your defense on that thread, I saw it, was too busy to get into it.
Another interesting aspect of this is that once the evils of rock and roll caught Ireland in the 60s, the church magically found traditional music to be wholesome all of a sudden...
As far as the 'development of instruments' part of your question-
BANJO BANJO BANJO! It was in fact developed and played by African Americans, used in Ireland as early as the twenties, maybe earlier. The Taylor brothers of Philadelphia made some kind of impact on uillean pipes though I'm not sure what....maybe someone else knows....
My sketchy knowledge of the impact of the Taylor brothers on the pipes is that they were possibly (operative word here) one of the first pipemakers to use a wide bore concert pitch design. As I understand it, they wanted to make the instrument louder for Vaudeville type stage performances. Older sets up pipes were either flat pitch or narrow bore D and sounded a lot softer than the Taylor ones. They also have those distinctive big square brash looking reg and chanter keys.
Speaking of intrumentation, from the 'everything old is new again' department, check out this pic of Jack Storer and his son Finbar playing a duet on the box and saxophone. (Huge Google Books link shortened, from the book linked to above)
Apparently, the dance halls had so many folks in them that most bands has brass sections as well. You'd have saxophones, boxes, banjos and fiddles, along with a piano and drum set. Some of the Boston halls could hold over 1,000 folks all dancing away, so the louder the band could play the better, at least until amplification came into widespread use.
Having a brass section would also allow them to play popular American music at the same time. It was not uncommon in the late 40s to dance The Siege of Ennis followed by the fox trot.
You should read, if you can get hold of them, Tim Pat Coogan's 'Wherever Green is Worn' (by far the best account of Irish emigration), Gearóid O hAllmhuráin's 'A Pocket History of Irish Traditional Music', and Mick Moloney's 'Far from the Shamrock Shore'.
It's arguable that the greatest influence upon Irish music in the 20th century was not the recordings of the Sligo fiddlers, but the arrival of the session, brought back to the country from the UK by returning Irish migrant workers.
Yep, Shanty, I know. The three books I cited were all in reference to the US, but I couldn't resist making the point that the modern shape of the music owes far more to Camden Town in the 1950s than it does to New York in the 1920s.
Floss - valid point. Paddy in the Smoke is a nice snap-shot of that era.
I think it holds true that nearly all folk music is often mocked in it's birth country as low class - but often deeply embraced by the descendants of the those who left.
“The Irish roots are strong enough in old time fiddle music here in the states that an Irish musician could probably sit in at an old time fiddle session and probably know a good number of the tunes.”
Nate, I would bet that the extent to which that’s true is mostly a measure of how many current “old-time” fiddlers have listened to The Chieftains and The Bothy Band, at least in the Southern Appalachian area, where I live. The real old-timers I’ve known played just a small handful of tunes vaguely resembling the Irish tradition that we celebrate on the mustard board. The more I listen and think about it, the more I believe that the Southern Appalachian fiddle music that survives today owes as much to African and native American (and maybe even German) influences as to Irish or Scottish.
I would certainly say that the "old-timey" session that wife and I sat in on last Saturday in Western New York had a lot of very familiar ITM tunes. That might just reflect the particular musicians in it, of course.
I gather that other old-timey sessions can be more prescriptive - I understand there is one here in London where you'ld be frowned upon if you brought in a large guitar.
"And you shall make an awful sound on the stringed instruments, and the pipes shall make a naughty noise, and the ears of all the inhabitants of the land shall tingle."
I thought that I was the only person who'd ever bought a copy of "Irish Music in London Pubs" ! Congrartulations to the cogniscento out there for his/her good taste!
I've recently posted a couple of early Irish-American recordings in the recordings section if you want to take a look.
There are some definite jazz and vaudeville , and even big band swing influences on some of the tracks to my ears. I suppose the debate will continue as to how or whether that influenced Irish music back in Ireland.
I remember reading the cover notes of a James Keane album few years ago when he relates how he and his brother Sean used to bus it into Dublin for music lessons. He said that as soon as they would get off the bus and the local boys would see their instrument cases they would have to run the gauntlet to the place of lessons receiving physical and verbal abuse along the way.
Seems that some things don't change no matter where you are.
"..Not to suggest that the Scots-Irish influence isn't there, but it's mostly from 250-300 years ago."
I have to agree, I live near the Ozarks, and while the dominant ancestry is Scots-Irish the music is very different. The tunes are played very differently, an Irish trad musician wouldn't be able to just sit down and play along. It's a different style with a lot of different influences, Irish music being just one of them.
"I would certainly say that the "old-timey" session that wife and I sat in on last Saturday in Western New York had a lot of very familiar ITM tunes"
It's probably a lot different in the Northeast. There are many different flavors of old-time.
The fiddle music of Appalachia is descended from the music of the 18th century settlers: A lot of Anglo Irish: Scots-Irish; and a big heap of English people. Their music is their music; it does NOT fit easily with the music of the 19th century Irish immigrants, who BTW, mostly gravitated to the big cities, or by-passed Appalachia for the the newly opened Mid-West and Far-West.
PS: the pipemaking Taylors, William and Charles, were uncle and nephew. Might they have built their pipes using Southbend Lathes? Two brothers from Cork dreamed up the design for those machines, and eventually founded that company. Pardon the digression.
That's the first I've herd that they were not brothers. Every reference of them I've ever seen calls them 'Brothers'. Never herd of the O'Brien pipe makers(brothers, uncles, cousins or husband-wife team....) But as they are from Cork they don't pertain to the thread.
Here was I, thinking you were giving out to the Cork people, for being Cork people. So I responded ungallantly that the Louth people deserve no better. Lets try again. The O'Briens named their line of lathes after their new home in the U.S. -- South Bend. Could we have a show of hands from all the U.S. pipemakers who use South Bend lathes? It's worth asking.
The Session.Org's resident medical secretary will be glad to strike it from the minutes and substitute some big, long, fancy medical term which only doctors understand in place of the offending words.
Strike away, fauxcelt, strike away. Wouldn't it be grand if The Session.Org had a bigger mess to clean up, such as a persistant assertion that the Taylors were a husband-and-wife figure skating team? Such an allegation could be made with all the highly motivated idiocy of the folks who are crashing the health-care-reform discussions these days.
To digress....
....instead of going back to the original question, as is more often my wont.........
........has anyone ever considered the influence of Jewish klezmer-playing immigrants on the development of jazz ?
You may consider them removed from the minutes, Atahualpa Quigley.
Also, speaking as someone who has worked in a large hospital for many years, there is a lot I could say about our current health care system but I am not going to say it here on a web site where we are supposed to be discussing music.
Studying the influence of Jewish Klezmer playing immigrants on the development of jazz would be an interesting research project for some music major in graduate school who is an aspiring musicologist.
I met one of those fellers years ago, round a campfire in North Carolina, I think. He had followed one fiddle tune back to its earliest known roots.
I'm sure it got him his Masters or his Phd.
“........has anyone ever considered the influence of Jewish klezmer-playing immigrants on the development of jazz ?”
I think we should allow them to exert a small amount of influence, then see how it goes. But, seriously, I never thought of that. Is there demographic evidence that suggests significant influence? I’m not sure I could make the case just from listening to the two styles. I don’t hear the Laughing Clarinet in jazz.
Actually, I’ve believed for some time that one of the biggest influences on the development of jazz was cannabis. I’m serious. Think about it.
If you are going to mention cannabis, maybe we should also include all of the other drugs and hallucinogens both legal and illegal which musicians have used and/or sampled over the years.
If I remember my human history correctly, alcohol has been a pervasive drug for thousands of years now.
There is a way to be an alcoholic without drinking anything. One of my hobbies is trains and, according to this railfan web site which I like to visit, if you are interested in and like the locomotives built by the American Locomotive Company otherwise know as ALCO), then you are an ALCOholic.
Influence of Emigration to ITM
Influence of Emigration to ITM
Hi!
I'm trying to do research about how emigration of Irish people has influenced traditional music. "Emigration" here refers to Irish emigration to America (19th&20th century).
I mostly thought of jazz influences on Irish music and vice-versa (e.g. swing backing). Were there any other striking influences (maybe also according to developments of instruments etc.)?
I'd be glad to get some responses. It would also be a great help if someone could recommend a useful journal or other sources for further research. Thanks in advance!
Greg
# Posted on August 19th 2009 by JigsawGreg
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
This book is extensive and revealing in regards to your topic, but just for the Boston area during the golden years of the Boston Irish dance halls, 1920s-1960s.
http://www.upne.com/1-55553-610-7.html
Illuminating comments from Paddy Cronin about having to hide his fiddle in Ireland because they'd make fun of traditional music there. "Backwards culchie music!" etc.
He was amazed to come to Boston in the 50s and be treated like a hero, with the music everywhere. In Ireland they'd make fun of him, all they wanted to hear was modern music.
# Posted on August 19th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
SWFL
It's the same with thePolish music tradition I grew up with. First generation in the States wanted no part of it. The problem with my Polish relatives was that so wanted to deny their heritage, they destroyed all the records (birth and vinyl as it were)
One of the Mustard Board's posters who is from Poland has been very kind in helping me on some personal family tracking. He shared with me some links to traditional Polish Music.
What I was impressed with was the similarities in the character of the Music, small group, playing fiddles, Music had a similar 'Zen' (for lack of a better word) to the ITM. Swedish traditional music is the same way. Rhythm was different, but the flow of was there.
But when I was a kid, eleven or twelve, I brought home a fiddle. My father and mother went through the roof. "No son of mine will play the violin." So I played piano. And now the box. (My perverse side is angry the he wasn't around to be in the house when I started learing the Box!)
Anyway. Probably a similar situation in Ireland in the 50's which is about the same time. The Europeans had all gone through two wars that brought them violently from what they viewed as an "older" culture into the "modern" era in the 50s.
In the Polish culture in the States, it seems that traditional music is completely gone. Even my 84 year old Sainted mother, 'the Polka Queen' as we call her, bemoans that the Polka bands are disappearing, and that there are no good accordion players left.
Herself would kill me if I went back the playing 'The Polish Stomp'. I'll stick to reels
# Posted on August 19th 2009 by zippydw
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
Flip flop on that, zippy. Irish America had a kung fu grip on their music while it was being scorned in Ireland. Then America went ga-ga over The Clancy Bros, the 60s followed, the renaissance took off in Ireland, and all of a sudden, rural folks like Paddy Cronin playing traditional music were no longer bog trotting culchies.
Important musical history not to forget, I think. Especially when there's some eejit on here screaming about Yanks playing Irish music. "Why the hell not? It's not like y'all cared until The Clancies showed up on Ed Sullivan and got to sing for JFK.
# Posted on August 19th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
Speaking of himself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWQ98jxKo5A
# Posted on August 19th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
The decline of Irish music in the 30s and 40s in Ireland was not the fault of the Irish people but the government and clergy of the time. Read this for more info:
http://www.setdance.com/pdha/pdha.html
# Posted on August 19th 2009 by csparpd
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
"all they wanted to hear was modern music" and "they'd make fun of traditional music there. 'Backwards culchie music!' etc.
Plus ça change...
# Posted on August 19th 2009 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
One thing that emmigration did was that the Irish and Scotish families that settled in the Appalachian Mountains brought with them the foundations of American bluegrass and folk fiddle styles
so more than jazz influences on Irish music, which I see very little of honestly, the Irish music influenced the folk music here in the States.
The Irish roots are strong enough in old time fiddle music here in the states that an Irish musician could probably sit in at an old time fiddle session and probably know a good number of the tunes
# Posted on August 19th 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
SWFL - thanks for the heads up home-boy. I was once taken to task here on the session.org for suggesting that Irish music was kept alive here in America while it was on life-support back in Ireland during this period. csparpd makes a valid point that it was frowned upon and discouraged buy the establishment, but for the most part it was also seen as "culchie" music by the main populace as SWFL pointed out above.
"...and you shall be scorned in your own land. Therefore go unto the heathens and spread the good news."
The Gospel of Andrew McGann, 2:4
# Posted on August 19th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
The Dance Hall Act was a self-inflicted cultural atrocity.
Thank goodness some people kept the music going in Ireland and the Diaspora, ignoring the critics.
# Posted on August 19th 2009 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
"First you must larn the Tok, and then you must larn the Grip, and then you must larn the Throkkily-How, and then you have the whole lot, only just to keep on practicing it"
Book of Ennis, chapter 1, verse 2.
# Posted on August 19th 2009 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
Michael Coleman, James Morrison, 'Neilie' Boyle, Paddy Killoran, Peter Conlon are the names of a few Irish emmigrants, or Irish Americans in the case of Boyle,that had an impact on the music scene in America and Ireland. Good luck with your research!
# Posted on August 19th 2009 by shanty
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
No prob Jusa. I apologize for not rallying to your defense on that thread, I saw it, was too busy to get into it.
Another interesting aspect of this is that once the evils of rock and roll caught Ireland in the 60s, the church magically found traditional music to be wholesome all of a sudden...
# Posted on August 19th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
Not that I'm bashing, please don't get me wrong. More like trying to properly put the diaspora's contributions into perspective.
# Posted on August 19th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
As far as the 'development of instruments' part of your question-
BANJO BANJO BANJO! It was in fact developed and played by African Americans, used in Ireland as early as the twenties, maybe earlier. The Taylor brothers of Philadelphia made some kind of impact on uillean pipes though I'm not sure what....maybe someone else knows....
# Posted on August 19th 2009 by shanty
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
My sketchy knowledge of the impact of the Taylor brothers on the pipes is that they were possibly (operative word here) one of the first pipemakers to use a wide bore concert pitch design. As I understand it, they wanted to make the instrument louder for Vaudeville type stage performances. Older sets up pipes were either flat pitch or narrow bore D and sounded a lot softer than the Taylor ones. They also have those distinctive big square brash looking reg and chanter keys.
# Posted on August 19th 2009 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
Speaking of intrumentation, from the 'everything old is new again' department, check out this pic of Jack Storer and his son Finbar playing a duet on the box and saxophone. (Huge Google Books link shortened, from the book linked to above)
http://tinyurl.com/l27nwe
Apparently, the dance halls had so many folks in them that most bands has brass sections as well. You'd have saxophones, boxes, banjos and fiddles, along with a piano and drum set. Some of the Boston halls could hold over 1,000 folks all dancing away, so the louder the band could play the better, at least until amplification came into widespread use.
Having a brass section would also allow them to play popular American music at the same time. It was not uncommon in the late 40s to dance The Siege of Ennis followed by the fox trot.
# Posted on August 19th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
Well, not sure how great that tiny url is, doesn't seem to work.
# Posted on August 19th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
JigsawGreg,
You should read, if you can get hold of them, Tim Pat Coogan's 'Wherever Green is Worn' (by far the best account of Irish emigration), Gearóid O hAllmhuráin's 'A Pocket History of Irish Traditional Music', and Mick Moloney's 'Far from the Shamrock Shore'.
It's arguable that the greatest influence upon Irish music in the 20th century was not the recordings of the Sligo fiddlers, but the arrival of the session, brought back to the country from the UK by returning Irish migrant workers.
# Posted on August 19th 2009 by Floss the Tethers
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
SWFL
I recogngnized the upside down comparison. I was more focused on the attitudinal comparison.
# Posted on August 19th 2009 by zippydw
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
Floss, I believe you're right but He's asking specifically about emmigrants to America.
# Posted on August 19th 2009 by shanty
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
Yep, Shanty, I know. The three books I cited were all in reference to the US, but I couldn't resist making the point that the modern shape of the music owes far more to Camden Town in the 1950s than it does to New York in the 1920s.
# Posted on August 19th 2009 by Floss the Tethers
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
Floss - valid point. Paddy in the Smoke is a nice snap-shot of that era.
I think it holds true that nearly all folk music is often mocked in it's birth country as low class - but often deeply embraced by the descendants of the those who left.
# Posted on August 19th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
“The Irish roots are strong enough in old time fiddle music here in the states that an Irish musician could probably sit in at an old time fiddle session and probably know a good number of the tunes.”
Nate, I would bet that the extent to which that’s true is mostly a measure of how many current “old-time” fiddlers have listened to The Chieftains and The Bothy Band, at least in the Southern Appalachian area, where I live. The real old-timers I’ve known played just a small handful of tunes vaguely resembling the Irish tradition that we celebrate on the mustard board. The more I listen and think about it, the more I believe that the Southern Appalachian fiddle music that survives today owes as much to African and native American (and maybe even German) influences as to Irish or Scottish.
# Posted on August 19th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
..Not to suggest that the Scots-Irish influence isn't there, but it's mostly from 250-300 years ago.
# Posted on August 19th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
Yep, 'Paddy in the Smoke' and the often forgotten Folkways 1965 album 'Irish Music in London Pubs' provide such snapshots.
# Posted on August 19th 2009 by Floss the Tethers
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
I would certainly say that the "old-timey" session that wife and I sat in on last Saturday in Western New York had a lot of very familiar ITM tunes. That might just reflect the particular musicians in it, of course.
I gather that other old-timey sessions can be more prescriptive - I understand there is one here in London where you'ld be frowned upon if you brought in a large guitar.
# Posted on August 19th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
"And you shall make an awful sound on the stringed instruments, and the pipes shall make a naughty noise, and the ears of all the inhabitants of the land shall tingle."
The Book of Nick.
# Posted on August 19th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
I thought that I was the only person who'd ever bought a copy of "Irish Music in London Pubs" ! Congrartulations to the cogniscento out there for his/her good taste!
# Posted on August 19th 2009 by Ebor_fiddler
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
I've recently posted a couple of early Irish-American recordings in the recordings section if you want to take a look.
There are some definite jazz and vaudeville , and even big band swing influences on some of the tracks to my ears. I suppose the debate will continue as to how or whether that influenced Irish music back in Ireland.
# Posted on August 19th 2009 by Bren
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
I remember reading the cover notes of a James Keane album few years ago when he relates how he and his brother Sean used to bus it into Dublin for music lessons. He said that as soon as they would get off the bus and the local boys would see their instrument cases they would have to run the gauntlet to the place of lessons receiving physical and verbal abuse along the way.
Seems that some things don't change no matter where you are.
# Posted on August 19th 2009 by bigyabby
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
"..Not to suggest that the Scots-Irish influence isn't there, but it's mostly from 250-300 years ago."
I have to agree, I live near the Ozarks, and while the dominant ancestry is Scots-Irish the music is very different. The tunes are played very differently, an Irish trad musician wouldn't be able to just sit down and play along. It's a different style with a lot of different influences, Irish music being just one of them.
"I would certainly say that the "old-timey" session that wife and I sat in on last Saturday in Western New York had a lot of very familiar ITM tunes"
It's probably a lot different in the Northeast. There are many different flavors of old-time.
# Posted on August 20th 2009 by Marklar
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
Mick Moloney's book "Far from the Shamrock Shore" might be a good introduction...
http://www.mickmoloney.com/book/
# Posted on August 20th 2009 by Corinne Sharma
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
'Mick Moloney's book "Far from the Shamrock Shore" might be a good introduction...;
Already mentioned some 20 posts above!
# Posted on August 20th 2009 by Floss the Tethers
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
The fiddle music of Appalachia is descended from the music of the 18th century settlers: A lot of Anglo Irish: Scots-Irish; and a big heap of English people. Their music is their music; it does NOT fit easily with the music of the 19th century Irish immigrants, who BTW, mostly gravitated to the big cities, or by-passed Appalachia for the the newly opened Mid-West and Far-West.
# Posted on August 21st 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
PS: the pipemaking Taylors, William and Charles, were uncle and nephew. Might they have built their pipes using Southbend Lathes? Two brothers from Cork dreamed up the design for those machines, and eventually founded that company. Pardon the digression.
# Posted on August 21st 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
[Comes back after looking up the O'Briens and the Taylors] Doesn't look as though their productive periods would have overlapped.
# Posted on August 21st 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
That's the first I've herd that they were not brothers. Every reference of them I've ever seen calls them 'Brothers'. Never herd of the O'Brien pipe makers(brothers, uncles, cousins or husband-wife team....) But as they are from Cork they don't pertain to the thread.
# Posted on August 21st 2009 by shanty
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
Maybe the Taylors would have to be discounted as well, as they came from Co. Louth.
# Posted on August 21st 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
Had they stayed there, yes. The question was about Irish emmigrants to America and any influence they may have had on Irish music and instrumentation.
# Posted on August 21st 2009 by shanty
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
Here was I, thinking you were giving out to the Cork people, for being Cork people. So I responded ungallantly that the Louth people deserve no better. Lets try again. The O'Briens named their line of lathes after their new home in the U.S. -- South Bend. Could we have a show of hands from all the U.S. pipemakers who use South Bend lathes? It's worth asking.
# Posted on August 21st 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
The clouds part and I see the light ....I think....but...aint it a little of a stretch though....lathes? Influence...irish...music? d'ya really think?
# Posted on August 21st 2009 by shanty
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
If it's too much of a stretch, we can have the secretary strike it from the minutes.
# Posted on August 21st 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
The Session.Org's resident medical secretary will be glad to strike it from the minutes and substitute some big, long, fancy medical term which only doctors understand in place of the offending words.
# Posted on August 22nd 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
Strike away, fauxcelt, strike away. Wouldn't it be grand if The Session.Org had a bigger mess to clean up, such as a persistant assertion that the Taylors were a husband-and-wife figure skating team? Such an allegation could be made with all the highly motivated idiocy of the folks who are crashing the health-care-reform discussions these days.
# Posted on August 22nd 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
To digress....
....instead of going back to the original question, as is more often my wont.........
........has anyone ever considered the influence of Jewish klezmer-playing immigrants on the development of jazz ?
# Posted on August 23rd 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
This message is for Floss the Tethers.
No doubt, Sir, that you are very knowledgeable, but still, I am too old to be patronized.
This being said, I envy you for living in Ireland's "rural bliss" and wonder what you see when you look through your windows...
Respectfully,
# Posted on August 24th 2009 by Corinne Sharma
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
You may consider them removed from the minutes, Atahualpa Quigley.
Also, speaking as someone who has worked in a large hospital for many years, there is a lot I could say about our current health care system but I am not going to say it here on a web site where we are supposed to be discussing music.
# Posted on August 24th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
Studying the influence of Jewish Klezmer playing immigrants on the development of jazz would be an interesting research project for some music major in graduate school who is an aspiring musicologist.
# Posted on August 25th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
I met one of those fellers years ago, round a campfire in North Carolina, I think. He had followed one fiddle tune back to its earliest known roots.
I'm sure it got him his Masters or his Phd.
# Posted on August 25th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
That's nothing. My uncle could track a trout across Lake Tahoe by reading trout sign that was three days old.
# Posted on August 25th 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
“........has anyone ever considered the influence of Jewish klezmer-playing immigrants on the development of jazz ?”
I think we should allow them to exert a small amount of influence, then see how it goes. But, seriously, I never thought of that. Is there demographic evidence that suggests significant influence? I’m not sure I could make the case just from listening to the two styles. I don’t hear the Laughing Clarinet in jazz.
Actually, I’ve believed for some time that one of the biggest influences on the development of jazz was cannabis. I’m serious. Think about it.
# Posted on August 26th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
If you are going to mention cannabis, maybe we should also include all of the other drugs and hallucinogens both legal and illegal which musicians have used and/or sampled over the years.
# Posted on August 26th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
I don’t know of another drug, other than alcohol, that was so pervasive in the milieu from which jazz emerged.
# Posted on August 26th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Influence of Emigration to ITM
If I remember my human history correctly, alcohol has been a pervasive drug for thousands of years now.
There is a way to be an alcoholic without drinking anything. One of my hobbies is trains and, according to this railfan web site which I like to visit, if you are interested in and like the locomotives built by the American Locomotive Company otherwise know as ALCO), then you are an ALCOholic.
# Posted on August 27th 2009 by fauxcelt