I have a question about etiquette, as it relates to being fair to the bar/cafe/establishment who hosts/houses a weekly session. The problem is: a lot of people taking up space in the business who are not necessarily buying anything. Many musicians are thrifty, and eat at home before they leave and even bring their own water! They play for free though, and often don't consume much in the way of food/beer/services. I think that should be their perogative, given the thriftiest are often the better musicians in the group! Some sort of symbiotic relationship should exist though. I don't think it is fair to the business or it's staff to have a big loud raucus (sp?) group who doesn't generate much revenue. Any ideas on how to balance a situation such as this? Please direct me to other threads if you are aware of them too. Thanks. -Elanor
Anyone who goes out to the pub and drinks water (except if they are driving their friends who are drinking proper) is a social misfit. Regardless of what ever else they are doing.
True Dave. I actually don't disagree with that, but the businesses here usually give out water for free anyway, and a person who brings their own might think at least they aren't hassling the waitress. I wonder if we presented to the non-paying musicians the concept of loitering? Which in a sense is what is happening, and explain that it is a business, etc. I am hoping to find a diplomatic solution.
Best bet: Discuss it with the venue's manager or owner. Your session depends on their goodwill. Don't try to guess whether your group is too big, or too thrifty, just ask about it.
Actually it is... big and thrifty, trying to squeeze more bucks out is probably the best solution, for the business. Does anyone have set rules or expectations that work? Is there a social norm in your town?
Surely there's another side to this. Does the establishment not gain customers (listeners) who will spend some money? The musicians are providing free entertainment, admittedly for themselves primarily, enough pandering to miserable publicans!
Too many variables, to come up with a good answer to this. Is it a tiny place, and the players have squeezed out the paying customers? Is it a new place, trying to get noticed and get some customers, so they appreciate having some hubbub in the place? Does the owner or manager have a soft spot for Irish music especially? Are there other types of sessions there--if so, how does yours compare?
If management is unhappy with the status quo, you might have to find a bigger place, or make your session "by invitation only," or ask/demand that everybody buy something (not necessarily alcoholic, despite what some would have you believe), or bring extra chairs to keep seats free for the customers... like I said, too many variables to get a sure-fire solution by asking here.
Its not your call to disperse punters, or exclude musicians who turn up in good faith unless you are the owner/manager. Someone else referred to as mis match of venue. Why not put a few quid behind the bar for regulars and a few quid aside as tips for barstaff. this has the dual purpose of cementing a financial contribution on you part annnnddd more importantly it would seem - allow you to exclude people descretly by not offering them a drink..
cant understand why musicians have to prop up takings, turn the logic of having a session at the venue on its head. Ie to generate revenue in itself. ??? why are you even there
reserved signs on the seats, drinks for regulars, pre arranged set, matching clothes, playing over the rejects when they try and start tunes, not stopping between sets, not joining in with the rejects or even just telling them outright you a fool go away..ya fool
Let's say a funeral home offers keepsake white gloves to pall bearers, for a modest price.
If I refuse to purchase the gloves (either preferring the feel of my skin on the coffin handles, or bringing my own white gloves) should I then reasonably be asked to take my leave, causing Uncle Billy's coffin to perhaps lurch precariously to one side? (And it's often icy around these parts.)
My good friend Dr. Obvious elbowed me aside to have his say: Funeral home = pub. White glove = beverage. Uncle Billy's Coffin = one truly terrific tune, if you haven't heard it.
thanks forrest, more of a shot in the dark here. It's not "my" session, however I was brought in on the discussion by those who make decisions regarding it's existance, so I thought I would throw something at the wall and see what sticks. I actually think the regs putting some money behind the bar was a great idea, and will pass that part on.
To be honest Elanor, as FT says, there are too many variables. You like in Alaska so it's difficult to give to genuine advice. Here, most sessions benefit the bar, musicians are generally seen as an asset and usually as given beer by the bar all evening because of the custom they attract. If I was expected to buy food or was seen as 'thrifty' for not buying food or drink in exchange for my time then me and my mates would be in another pub before you could say 'jig'. That might not be so easy where you are so your question is difficult. Good luck though.
just tell Sarah Palin its bad for the economy "and stuff" and im sure the State Troopers will police theSession. Sure she can just get them fired if they dont
Did you lie before bogman? . This isn't a major problem, but I hope good intentions of the musicians should be recognized as well as the bar/cafe whoever host's, and if we come up with something that works, then the relationship can remain a happy one. The points brought up were still pertinent, and if one suggestion out ten helps then, that was still worth a post on this site. Besides got a new tune suggestion.... bonus!
Why do they have a session if it brings no custom? Ignore the whismy and witterings here and go to the horses mouth talk to the mangement and the other players.
Or copy out this discussion and show it to the others players ask what they think.
"Anyone who goes out to the pub and drinks water (except if they are driving their friends who are drinking proper) is a social misfit. Regardless of what ever else they are doing."
Bull, maybe they are diabetic or alcoholic or have another medical reason they can't drink. You are the misfit. lol
Kick the spoiled brats out, ruining the music and the business. In my town I can't even get the local Irish pub to host a session or 2 or 3 players one night out of the year. Then tell them not to come back unless they can sit back and listen with a cup of tea or a pint.... F Sake you can't be That thrifty...
Well it's not about kicking anybody out. It's about matching interests. It is up to the session host(s) whether any session is open or by invite. So to clear it up my question was to ask for suggestions to match players and business owner interests.
Small business owners are pragmatic and you don't have to worry
about your session hurting the business. They'll soon chuck you
out if that's the case. Fortunately at my local sesh the pub buys
us drinks - don't try to bring in anything though! In fact they pay
for two sessions a week. Every once in a while they'll close down
the tab if it's getting out of control. Most of us are responsible
nerd types though.
A session will sustain itself with a few ingredients, all necessary and in a state of flux.
First, the owner/host. If you have one that connects with the musicians on a personal level and supports the session so the musicians become a friends, you have ingredient one.
Second, the musicians. Musicians come to a session for the craic--meeting new friends and fellow musicians, a friendly environment composed of people who love the music. Each session has anchors, but each one is different depending on who shows up. When a session get really cranked-up and in a zone, and the patrons are having a rousing time, that's the best!
Third, the patrons. Folks who enjoy the music and the craic as much as the musicians, appreciate the musicins' talents, even if their compliments are overstated.
It's balance and flow between the above groups. And the most amazing thing of all, it that the music touches/connects across generations. The effect on small children, in particular, is some much fun to watch.
Anyway, just my two cents worth; this is why I play!
If the bar is so desperate for trade that they rely on the musicians, it's time to start looking for another place to play. If the session is so desperate, or ill-suited to the time and place that the musicians are the only trade, it's likewise time to look for another place to play. If the owner's so desperate to squeeze every last nickel out of the place that he's going to complain that the musicians aren't buying his booze, it's definitely time to find another place to buy your pints.
That's about the size of it - if it's working, let it happen. If not, move along.
Thanks to all who have replied, the love-it-or-leave it or fatalistic responses, seem be in the majority, and yeah the situation is neither that complex or simple. So I am likely to just take that with a grain of salt. Forrest, I apologize for not recognizing having management involved as a suggestion I overlooked that response.
I think there's a balance to be struck though. If the venue is a good place for a tune it's worth fixing to the mutual benefit.
I recall a certain self appointed "home of highland music" in inverness, now no longer with us (TF). When the place first opened I was there with a couple of pals not known for their sober demure. Anyway we'd just had a frantic tune, guzzled our way through a "cargo of drink" and the hosts were all over us with compliments (and patting themselves on their backs as to the initial success of hosting a good tune). I, being very mad for a tune in those days was hoping for more of the same, I asked my pal what he thought. His reaction at first startled me but he was proven correct all being his timing was out. "This place will fail if it doesn't change within the year, we're the only ones drinking and we're not paying, these feckers (the punters, or customers for our pals over the water) are eating carrot cake and making their squeezed OJ last all night, it's the booze that pays). Sure enough after a couple of years they were bust. We'd have supported them more if they'd been supportive in return, but the understanding wasn't mutual. I asked my pal what he thought: "crap venue anyway" said he. Although the first manager was and still is a fantastic woman IMO.
I play in and around many small highland bars the economy of which is fragile. I've yet to attend one of the regular sessions where I'm not offered a drink and I play plenty for €£$ where music is seen as a earner for these small bars. The bar wants craic and to be known for it, thats why people go out round my way. So even though the bar may only break even on a quiet night there are always plenty of people ready to spend their money and hear all about how mighty the tune was they missed on another night.
I'd talk to the staff and the tea totalers and employ one or two of the suggestions tendered in this thread. If the venue is good for a tune it's worth keeping in my book.
I used to be a publican. If my pub was heaving and the drinks were flowing, I wouldn't take kindly to a bunch of musicians squeezing in and trying to set up in a corner. If, on the other hand, my pub was empty, I would welcome the same musicians with open arms and till. In my experience, no musician ever played that didn't have at least one drink bought for him, and nobody ever complained about musicians being in, especially if they had come in first. If you or the manager are not happy with the arrangement, you could try changing the day or the time to when the place is not busy. If other customers come in and stay as a result, then great. If not, then the manager has lost nothing.
Just saw this thread. I know at our session (where the economy is down and the pub sometimes struggles and some of the players are having tough times as well) a few of the regulars have mentioned offhandedly that they do their best to support the pub when we're there. This made an impression on me because I'm reminded that it's a relationship and both sides have to hold up their end.
The pub owner pays two anchor musicians a small amount (the anchor players rotate somewhat) and generally by the end of the night that money has gone back to him, spent on food and drink.
I feel tremendously lucky to be able to attend, week after week, listen to some great music, take up space in the pub (sometimes with family members along to listen), play along with the tunes I know, for "free." I figure it's my place to show that gratitude with a bit of patronage.
And especially as a lowly beginner, I feel I owe something for the privilege of participating. I try to always order something - drink or food - and if I can't swing that, I try to leave somewhat of a tip, even just for the water. The waitstaff is good to us and I tip generously when I can.
That said, I really wish I could get a drink on the house every now and then. I'd feel appreciated and it would be a nice gesture. But the current situation doesn't allow for it, and I can live with that for the sake of the music continuing.
I have plenty of broke and/or teetotaling friends who play at sessions with me. I'm a broke drinker myself. Anyway, even the teetotalers come to the session and have coffee, tea, or a soda. They get a bite to eat, too.
Of course, session musicians get 50% off their tabs, so that helps, and as the anchor they give me a small tab to buy a few free pints with.
If it's a serious issue, then go the management. "Mr/Mrs Publican, is it OK that we've got all these broke musicians in here not buying anything?"
Problem I have had is that if you show up to eat before a session, the place is usually just picking up, the wait staff amy be the afternoon crew who is going off, or not staffed up yet for the evening being busy since the music is such a big draw
And you wait forever. Several times the music has started and I have left the food on the table. Herself hates eating alone.
So eating before is actually part of the routine. But the drinks are another story.
The musicians work for free (except for the leader I suppose) and come to play, so the pub owner's shouldn't expect them to scarf down alot of the food. I hate playing with greasy hands!
One of my session pubs provides a free pint for the first 6 musicians to arrive (you pick out one of 6 tabs in a jar). This tends to ensure that we get at least 6 turning up on time, but two or three of the regular early arrivals often don't pick up their tab but prefer to pay for their pint, so that those who can't get there early do get a chance of a free one. Although I normally now don't drink more than one pint I'll have one or more coffees later on (which is a good profit for the pub). This pub has the policy of having the session right in the front window so that we can be seen and heard by the passers-by. This really brings the punters in to listen, and once in they'll buy a drink or two.
Another session pub, which also functions as quite a good restaurant until 9pm, provides the musicians with a generous selection of excellent sandwiches, really hot and firm chips (french fries), and paper wipes for the fingers.
Amy, I think your situation sounds familiar . The dynamic you describe I have seen in place now for 3 different sessions, yet still the concept of what is fair-play for musician/business is gray. I think an open dialogue between all involved makes sense, more experienced muscians perhaps clueing in the less experienced, as well, as the pub sort of setting clear consistent rules like the 6 free beers mentioned by lazy. Yes Solid, I think its worth it anywhere a session is enjoyable to make small adjustments to account for things like: economy, school year/tourist seasons, etc, depending on what kind of town a person is in.
At one place I used to play, the landlord was fabulously rude about the musicians and the music (although he also hired our band a few times). It was pretty poisonous - and of course it goes without saying that no drinks or food were ever provided. Still, the pub was busy enough.
Sometimes at the end of the day, the landlord would politely ask the musicians to leave, and sometimes it wouldn't be so polite. "You lot are seriously p*ssing me off now" was one more memorable encouragement to vacate the premises.
I'm always surprised that musicians (and the landlord) put up with this situation without going their separate ways. Why is it OK to take abuse, or give it, come to that?
At least you live in a place where the local laws allow the bar (or pub) to give alcoholic beverages to the musicians without charging for the drinks. That is strictly illegal here and anything alcoholic is heavily taxed as well. And, what is furthermore, until a few years ago, you couldn't buy alcoholic beverages on Sunday unless you went to a "private" club and paid for a membership at that club.
I just think it's always a good policy to put some money over the bar as a visiting musician, even if just for soft drinks (probably a bigger profit margin on those anyway)
While it's always nice to receive a drink from a grateful staff or punter, I don't believe you should look at it as reward for "work".
Trad sessions are still basically self-indulgent fun like any other activity you might go to the pub for - watching football, playing dominoes, arguing with your mates, setting the world to rights etc.
I don't think you "deserve" any reward for that and if the pub pays session anchors etc in money or in kind, it's only in its own self-interest to maintain a regular session
"Work" is when you perform music as required, specifically aimed at entertaining punters, in a professional way, for a defined time, perhaps through a PA and facing the audience
'"Work" is when you perform music as required, specifically aimed at entertaining punters, in a professional way, for a defined time, perhaps through a PA and facing the audience'
Excellent points bren. Since you brought that up I thought about other things like ... dancers... they tend to get a lot of exercise, and sometimes take up a tremendous amount of space, buy some... but not much. Which brings about the time issue. Musicians, and dancers even if each buys a couple of items, can spend 3-4 hours doing their "thing" and sipping, or snacking as they go. So if the session is on a night where the business could make more money filling those seats/spaces with regular punters then a mismatch certainly would exist. I still think perhaps the participants being respectful patrons of the establishment, even on what would be a slow night, could keep the whole thing in a positive for the business. I totally agree with you bren, by the way. A session is not a "performance" if that term is used to describe what you have AMPS, facing the crowd, long sets, etc. It'sa social event, therefore like any other type of socializing in a business, patronage is expected. (I think way up at the top I mentioned the concept of loitering)
Me too, Random Notes. I didn't mean to imply otherwise.
You seem to have worked out the answers already Elanor
You wouldn't expect to go to a pub to play cards and sit there all night taking up space and blocking access without spending any money.
I suspect your dilemma is how best to convey this to some of your sessioneers ... ?
yes... in a word. I am thinking "lead by example." Sort of make a small show if it, when one of the regulars, makes a purchase, or gently bringing up the conversation perhaps in the light that you put it in, could help.
Session wearing out it's welcome?
Session wearing out it's welcome?
I have a question about etiquette, as it relates to being fair to the bar/cafe/establishment who hosts/houses a weekly session. The problem is: a lot of people taking up space in the business who are not necessarily buying anything. Many musicians are thrifty, and eat at home before they leave and even bring their own water! They play for free though, and often don't consume much in the way of food/beer/services. I think that should be their perogative, given the thriftiest are often the better musicians in the group! Some sort of symbiotic relationship should exist though. I don't think it is fair to the business or it's staff to have a big loud raucus (sp?) group who doesn't generate much revenue. Any ideas on how to balance a situation such as this? Please direct me to other threads if you are aware of them too. Thanks. -Elanor
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by SandyBottoms
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
Frankly I think it's a cheek to bring your own drink. What is this '
water' stuff anyway?
Remember they are a biz not a charity.
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
Anyone who goes out to the pub and drinks water (except if they are driving their friends who are drinking proper) is a social misfit. Regardless of what ever else they are doing.
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
True Dave. I actually don't disagree with that, but the businesses here usually give out water for free anyway, and a person who brings their own might think at least they aren't hassling the waitress. I wonder if we presented to the non-paying musicians the concept of loitering? Which in a sense is what is happening, and explain that it is a business, etc. I am hoping to find a diplomatic solution.
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by SandyBottoms
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
Best bet: Discuss it with the venue's manager or owner. Your session depends on their goodwill. Don't try to guess whether your group is too big, or too thrifty, just ask about it.
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by tuckered out
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
is this a windup.. heres the correct etiquette.. shutup
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by Trucks_Mulligan
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
Actually it is... big and thrifty, trying to squeeze more bucks out is probably the best solution, for the business. Does anyone have set rules or expectations that work? Is there a social norm in your town?
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by SandyBottoms
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
In my opinion if the bar doesn't benefit from the session then it's in the wrong place or at the wrong time. Sounds like a miss-match to me.
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by bogman
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
You could always fold napkins and issue invitations..bake wee buns n stuff
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by Trucks_Mulligan
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
Is there a Social norm in your town.. ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..
i suggest enforcing a dress code and assign your second in command to give dirty looks to water bottle holders.
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by Trucks_Mulligan
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
If they're drinking water then they're setting a bad example. Send them packing.
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by bogman
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
Trucks, I think you've provided the first actual suggestion so far.
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by SandyBottoms
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
Surely there's another side to this. Does the establishment not gain customers (listeners) who will spend some money? The musicians are providing free entertainment, admittedly for themselves primarily, enough pandering to miserable publicans!
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by Backer
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
ElanorFiddles - she certainly does..
you could alway slag the unwanted musicians until they became mortified and left.. you cud then shout YEEEOOOOOOO
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by Trucks_Mulligan
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
Woops, didn't really mean than. Well, I did, but I shouldn't have wrote it.
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by bogman
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
Too many variables, to come up with a good answer to this. Is it a tiny place, and the players have squeezed out the paying customers? Is it a new place, trying to get noticed and get some customers, so they appreciate having some hubbub in the place? Does the owner or manager have a soft spot for Irish music especially? Are there other types of sessions there--if so, how does yours compare?
If management is unhappy with the status quo, you might have to find a bigger place, or make your session "by invitation only," or ask/demand that everybody buy something (not necessarily alcoholic, despite what some would have you believe), or bring extra chairs to keep seats free for the customers... like I said, too many variables to get a sure-fire solution by asking here.
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by tuckered out
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
And I can't understand why "Discuss it with the management" is not an "actual suggestion."
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by tuckered out
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
Its not your call to disperse punters, or exclude musicians who turn up in good faith unless you are the owner/manager. Someone else referred to as mis match of venue. Why not put a few quid behind the bar for regulars and a few quid aside as tips for barstaff. this has the dual purpose of cementing a financial contribution on you part annnnddd more importantly it would seem - allow you to exclude people descretly by not offering them a drink..
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by Trucks_Mulligan
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
cant understand why musicians have to prop up takings, turn the logic of having a session at the venue on its head. Ie to generate revenue in itself. ??? why are you even there
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by Trucks_Mulligan
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
Trucks I think that is best idea yet. It may even be a solution, will run it past those who matter.
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by SandyBottoms
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
turns#
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by Trucks_Mulligan
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
I can't understand how not offering people a drink who don't wan't a drink would exclude them ....
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
confucious speaks
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by Trucks_Mulligan
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
reserved signs on the seats, drinks for regulars, pre arranged set, matching clothes, playing over the rejects when they try and start tunes, not stopping between sets, not joining in with the rejects or even just telling them outright you a fool go away..ya fool
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by Trucks_Mulligan
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
matching clothes?
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by SandyBottoms
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
aye..wee uniforms
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by Trucks_Mulligan
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
Other threads:
A Session is Never Too Big?
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/16163/
Advice on putting together a session?
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/22184/
Good luck with your session, Elanor--I think maybe you're going to need it. Especially if you rely too heavily on random comments from this crowd.
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by tuckered out
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
Let's say a funeral home offers keepsake white gloves to pall bearers, for a modest price.
If I refuse to purchase the gloves (either preferring the feel of my skin on the coffin handles, or bringing my own white gloves) should I then reasonably be asked to take my leave, causing Uncle Billy's coffin to perhaps lurch precariously to one side? (And it's often icy around these parts.)
My good friend Dr. Obvious elbowed me aside to have his say: Funeral home = pub. White glove = beverage. Uncle Billy's Coffin = one truly terrific tune, if you haven't heard it.
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
thanks forrest, more of a shot in the dark here. It's not "my" session, however I was brought in on the discussion by those who make decisions regarding it's existance, so I thought I would throw something at the wall and see what sticks. I actually think the regs putting some money behind the bar was a great idea, and will pass that part on.
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by SandyBottoms
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
To be honest Elanor, as FT says, there are too many variables. You like in Alaska so it's difficult to give to genuine advice. Here, most sessions benefit the bar, musicians are generally seen as an asset and usually as given beer by the bar all evening because of the custom they attract. If I was expected to buy food or was seen as 'thrifty' for not buying food or drink in exchange for my time then me and my mates would be in another pub before you could say 'jig'. That might not be so easy where you are so your question is difficult. Good luck though.
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by bogman
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
just tell Sarah Palin its bad for the economy "and stuff" and im sure the State Troopers will police theSession. Sure she can just get them fired if they dont
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by Trucks_Mulligan
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
Did you lie before bogman?
. This isn't a major problem, but I hope good intentions of the musicians should be recognized as well as the bar/cafe whoever host's, and if we come up with something that works, then the relationship can remain a happy one. The points brought up were still pertinent, and if one suggestion out ten helps then, that was still worth a post on this site. Besides got a new tune suggestion.... bonus!
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by SandyBottoms
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
Lie is a strong word Elanor
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by bogman
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
Why do they have a session if it brings no custom? Ignore the whismy and witterings here and go to the horses mouth talk to the mangement and the other players.
Or copy out this discussion and show it to the others players ask what they think.
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
"Anyone who goes out to the pub and drinks water (except if they are driving their friends who are drinking proper) is a social misfit. Regardless of what ever else they are doing."
Bull, maybe they are diabetic or alcoholic or have another medical reason they can't drink. You are the misfit. lol
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by tradsong
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
Kick the spoiled brats out, ruining the music and the business. In my town I can't even get the local Irish pub to host a session or 2 or 3 players one night out of the year. Then tell them not to come back unless they can sit back and listen with a cup of tea or a pint.... F Sake you can't be That thrifty...
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by fedorastain
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
just turn up and play, if you get kicked out just turn up somewhere else and play. Out.
# Posted on August 13th 2009 by mcknowall
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
Well it's not about kicking anybody out. It's about matching interests. It is up to the session host(s) whether any session is open or by invite. So to clear it up my question was to ask for suggestions to match players and business owner interests.
# Posted on August 13th 2009 by SandyBottoms
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
Small business owners are pragmatic and you don't have to worry
about your session hurting the business. They'll soon chuck you
out if that's the case. Fortunately at my local sesh the pub buys
us drinks - don't try to bring in anything though! In fact they pay
for two sessions a week. Every once in a while they'll close down
the tab if it's getting out of control. Most of us are responsible
nerd types though.
# Posted on August 13th 2009 by Hup
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
A session will sustain itself with a few ingredients, all necessary and in a state of flux.
First, the owner/host. If you have one that connects with the musicians on a personal level and supports the session so the musicians become a friends, you have ingredient one.
Second, the musicians. Musicians come to a session for the craic--meeting new friends and fellow musicians, a friendly environment composed of people who love the music. Each session has anchors, but each one is different depending on who shows up. When a session get really cranked-up and in a zone, and the patrons are having a rousing time, that's the best!
Third, the patrons. Folks who enjoy the music and the craic as much as the musicians, appreciate the musicins' talents, even if their compliments are overstated.
It's balance and flow between the above groups. And the most amazing thing of all, it that the music touches/connects across generations. The effect on small children, in particular, is some much fun to watch.
Anyway, just my two cents worth; this is why I play!
# Posted on August 13th 2009 by Celtic Guitar
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
If the bar is so desperate for trade that they rely on the musicians, it's time to start looking for another place to play. If the session is so desperate, or ill-suited to the time and place that the musicians are the only trade, it's likewise time to look for another place to play. If the owner's so desperate to squeeze every last nickel out of the place that he's going to complain that the musicians aren't buying his booze, it's definitely time to find another place to buy your pints.
That's about the size of it - if it's working, let it happen. If not, move along.
# Posted on August 13th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
Thanks to all who have replied, the love-it-or-leave it or fatalistic responses, seem be in the majority, and yeah the situation is neither that complex or simple. So I am likely to just take that with a grain of salt. Forrest, I apologize for not recognizing having management involved as a suggestion I overlooked that response.
# Posted on August 13th 2009 by SandyBottoms
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
I think there's a balance to be struck though. If the venue is a good place for a tune it's worth fixing to the mutual benefit.
I recall a certain self appointed "home of highland music" in inverness, now no longer with us (TF). When the place first opened I was there with a couple of pals not known for their sober demure. Anyway we'd just had a frantic tune, guzzled our way through a "cargo of drink" and the hosts were all over us with compliments (and patting themselves on their backs as to the initial success of hosting a good tune). I, being very mad for a tune in those days was hoping for more of the same, I asked my pal what he thought. His reaction at first startled me but he was proven correct all being his timing was out. "This place will fail if it doesn't change within the year, we're the only ones drinking and we're not paying, these feckers (the punters, or customers for our pals over the water) are eating carrot cake and making their squeezed OJ last all night, it's the booze that pays). Sure enough after a couple of years they were bust. We'd have supported them more if they'd been supportive in return, but the understanding wasn't mutual. I asked my pal what he thought: "crap venue anyway" said he. Although the first manager was and still is a fantastic woman IMO.
I play in and around many small highland bars the economy of which is fragile. I've yet to attend one of the regular sessions where I'm not offered a drink and I play plenty for €£$ where music is seen as a earner for these small bars. The bar wants craic and to be known for it, thats why people go out round my way. So even though the bar may only break even on a quiet night there are always plenty of people ready to spend their money and hear all about how mighty the tune was they missed on another night.
I'd talk to the staff and the tea totalers and employ one or two of the suggestions tendered in this thread. If the venue is good for a tune it's worth keeping in my book.
# Posted on August 13th 2009 by Solidmahog
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
I used to be a publican. If my pub was heaving and the drinks were flowing, I wouldn't take kindly to a bunch of musicians squeezing in and trying to set up in a corner. If, on the other hand, my pub was empty, I would welcome the same musicians with open arms and till. In my experience, no musician ever played that didn't have at least one drink bought for him, and nobody ever complained about musicians being in, especially if they had come in first. If you or the manager are not happy with the arrangement, you could try changing the day or the time to when the place is not busy. If other customers come in and stay as a result, then great. If not, then the manager has lost nothing.
# Posted on August 13th 2009 by gam
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
Just saw this thread. I know at our session (where the economy is down and the pub sometimes struggles and some of the players are having tough times as well) a few of the regulars have mentioned offhandedly that they do their best to support the pub when we're there. This made an impression on me because I'm reminded that it's a relationship and both sides have to hold up their end.
The pub owner pays two anchor musicians a small amount (the anchor players rotate somewhat) and generally by the end of the night that money has gone back to him, spent on food and drink.
I feel tremendously lucky to be able to attend, week after week, listen to some great music, take up space in the pub (sometimes with family members along to listen), play along with the tunes I know, for "free." I figure it's my place to show that gratitude with a bit of patronage.
And especially as a lowly beginner, I feel I owe something for the privilege of participating. I try to always order something - drink or food - and if I can't swing that, I try to leave somewhat of a tip, even just for the water. The waitstaff is good to us and I tip generously when I can.
That said, I really wish I could get a drink on the house every now and then. I'd feel appreciated and it would be a nice gesture. But the current situation doesn't allow for it, and I can live with that for the sake of the music continuing.
# Posted on August 13th 2009 by amyamanda
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
I have plenty of broke and/or teetotaling friends who play at sessions with me. I'm a broke drinker myself. Anyway, even the teetotalers come to the session and have coffee, tea, or a soda. They get a bite to eat, too.
Of course, session musicians get 50% off their tabs, so that helps, and as the anchor they give me a small tab to buy a few free pints with.
If it's a serious issue, then go the management. "Mr/Mrs Publican, is it OK that we've got all these broke musicians in here not buying anything?"
# Posted on August 13th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
Problem I have had is that if you show up to eat before a session, the place is usually just picking up, the wait staff amy be the afternoon crew who is going off, or not staffed up yet for the evening being busy since the music is such a big draw
And you wait forever. Several times the music has started and I have left the food on the table. Herself hates eating alone.
So eating before is actually part of the routine. But the drinks are another story.
The musicians work for free (except for the leader I suppose) and come to play, so the pub owner's shouldn't expect them to scarf down alot of the food. I hate playing with greasy hands!
# Posted on August 13th 2009 by zippydw
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
One of my session pubs provides a free pint for the first 6 musicians to arrive (you pick out one of 6 tabs in a jar). This tends to ensure that we get at least 6 turning up on time, but two or three of the regular early arrivals often don't pick up their tab but prefer to pay for their pint, so that those who can't get there early do get a chance of a free one. Although I normally now don't drink more than one pint I'll have one or more coffees later on (which is a good profit for the pub). This pub has the policy of having the session right in the front window so that we can be seen and heard by the passers-by. This really brings the punters in to listen, and once in they'll buy a drink or two.
Another session pub, which also functions as quite a good restaurant until 9pm, provides the musicians with a generous selection of excellent sandwiches, really hot and firm chips (french fries), and paper wipes for the fingers.
# Posted on August 13th 2009 by lazyhound
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
Amy, I think your situation sounds familiar
. The dynamic you describe I have seen in place now for 3 different sessions, yet still the concept of what is fair-play for musician/business is gray. I think an open dialogue between all involved makes sense, more experienced muscians perhaps clueing in the less experienced, as well, as the pub sort of setting clear consistent rules like the 6 free beers mentioned by lazy. Yes Solid, I think its worth it anywhere a session is enjoyable to make small adjustments to account for things like: economy, school year/tourist seasons, etc, depending on what kind of town a person is in.
# Posted on August 13th 2009 by SandyBottoms
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
At one place I used to play, the landlord was fabulously rude about the musicians and the music (although he also hired our band a few times). It was pretty poisonous - and of course it goes without saying that no drinks or food were ever provided. Still, the pub was busy enough.
Sometimes at the end of the day, the landlord would politely ask the musicians to leave, and sometimes it wouldn't be so polite. "You lot are seriously p*ssing me off now" was one more memorable encouragement to vacate the premises.
I'm always surprised that musicians (and the landlord) put up with this situation without going their separate ways. Why is it OK to take abuse, or give it, come to that?
# Posted on August 13th 2009 by Mark Harmer
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
Jayzus! I dunno, I wouldn't take that! Passive aggressive session anchors, maybe? Low self esteem issues?
# Posted on August 13th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
At least you live in a place where the local laws allow the bar (or pub) to give alcoholic beverages to the musicians without charging for the drinks. That is strictly illegal here and anything alcoholic is heavily taxed as well. And, what is furthermore, until a few years ago, you couldn't buy alcoholic beverages on Sunday unless you went to a "private" club and paid for a membership at that club.
# Posted on August 13th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
I just think it's always a good policy to put some money over the bar as a visiting musician, even if just for soft drinks (probably a bigger profit margin on those anyway)
While it's always nice to receive a drink from a grateful staff or punter, I don't believe you should look at it as reward for "work".
Trad sessions are still basically self-indulgent fun like any other activity you might go to the pub for - watching football, playing dominoes, arguing with your mates, setting the world to rights etc.
I don't think you "deserve" any reward for that and if the pub pays session anchors etc in money or in kind, it's only in its own self-interest to maintain a regular session
"Work" is when you perform music as required, specifically aimed at entertaining punters, in a professional way, for a defined time, perhaps through a PA and facing the audience
# Posted on August 13th 2009 by Bren
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
Bren, I like that attitude.
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by Mark Harmer
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
'"Work" is when you perform music as required, specifically aimed at entertaining punters, in a professional way, for a defined time, perhaps through a PA and facing the audience'
AMEN! That's why I HATE it, it's work.
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
I enjoy doing paid gigs SWFL, but the onus is on you to deliver, in a way that it isn't at a session.
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by Bren
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
Bren, some of the best music I have heard has been in sessions.
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by Random_notes
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
Mr Notes I agree.
Mr Bren, I like the pressure of having to deliver, keeps you on your toes and keeps you in practice for the real tunes; when and where they may occur.
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by Solidmahog
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
Excellent points bren. Since you brought that up I thought about other things like ... dancers... they tend to get a lot of exercise, and sometimes take up a tremendous amount of space, buy some... but not much. Which brings about the time issue. Musicians, and dancers even if each buys a couple of items, can spend 3-4 hours doing their "thing" and sipping, or snacking as they go. So if the session is on a night where the business could make more money filling those seats/spaces with regular punters then a mismatch certainly would exist. I still think perhaps the participants being respectful patrons of the establishment, even on what would be a slow night, could keep the whole thing in a positive for the business. I totally agree with you bren, by the way. A session is not a "performance" if that term is used to describe what you have AMPS, facing the crowd, long sets, etc. It'sa social event, therefore like any other type of socializing in a business, patronage is expected. (I think way up at the top I mentioned the concept of loitering)
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by SandyBottoms
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
Me too, Random Notes. I didn't mean to imply otherwise.
You seem to have worked out the answers already Elanor
You wouldn't expect to go to a pub to play cards and sit there all night taking up space and blocking access without spending any money.
I suspect your dilemma is how best to convey this to some of your sessioneers ... ?
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by Bren
Re: Session wearing out it's welcome?
yes... in a word. I am thinking "lead by example." Sort of make a small show if it, when one of the regulars, makes a purchase, or gently bringing up the conversation perhaps in the light that you put it in, could help.
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by SandyBottoms