My band played last Saturday at a rather posh venue (our usual venues are village halls, barns etc).
I was the first to arrive - with the band's PA. The door was manned by two uniformed security personnel. Well, there's nothing like a uniform to give you that feeling of power!
One of them demanded to see the PAT test certificates relating to our PA. (for those of you not in the UK, or otherwise may not know, "PAT" stands for "Portable Appliance Test").
Well, I'm not exactly known for being a pro-establishment figure, so I was rather tempted to say: "Well, Pat tested it last week, and he said that it was fine!"
However, as we did want to honour our booking (and thinking quickly on my feet), I replied: "All of our eqiuipment is brand new, and therefore not yet subject to a PAT test".
It worked - I was cordially waved through.
So, there you have it. If you play in a ceilidh/ceili band, yet another pitfall to watch out for ....
.. it was so much easier (and better) in the old days ....
Re: Ceilidh Band PA Systems - PAT Test Certificates
In the fifties before many rural dance halls in Ireland had electricty, we had to run the PA from the battery of the car that conveyed us to the gig. I suppose they'd be looking for an MOT Cert as well as a PAT Cert nowadays.
Re: Ceilidh Band PA Systems - PAT Test Certificates
True, SineadE. But I was actually being economical with the truth! (Although we did replace all of our old gear about 18 months ago).
However, even if we had still had our old gear (vintage 1976!), we would have still got away with it - that security guard didn't actually ask to SEE the PA!
When dealing with security personnel (or other jobsworth types) you just need to understand their mindset. Most of these characters weren't exactly in the front of the queue when the braincells were handed out ...
With these characters, you just have to blag it ....
Re: Ceilidh Band PA Systems - PAT Test Certificates
Solidmahog - not only was our PA all checked out by that fanmous irish electronics engineer (Pat Tester), but it was also designed by yet another famous Irish electronics engineer - Pat Pending!
Re: Ceilidh Band PA Systems - PAT Test Certificates
We had a gig at a hotel who insisted on PAT testing and public liability insurance, just last week. Luckily we were forewarned and came with the necessary paper work.
The DJ who was playing after us had had his equipment tested but did not have the certificate yet (the electrician had not sent it). He was made to wait outside for nearly two hours until he eventually managed to contact the electrician on a mobile phone, who then convinced the duty manager that his gear was up to spec. The hotel wouldn't take the "new gear" exemption into account (the DJ's kit was less than twelve months old).
Our electrician told us that many people don't realise that equipment less than twelve months old and under warranty does not legally need PAT testing.
I also did some research on the internet, and there is no legally defined time for frequency of retesting etc.
Re: Ceilidh Band PA Systems - PAT Test Certificates
It's an insurance ballax, btw, if your are hosting the event then you may well need 3rd party liability insurance and perhaps good old Pat can handle the testing....... But if the venue or the event organiser is hosting the event and your hired to play at said event then they should hold 3rd PI as it's their gig not the band, tiz the law. 3rd PI is for potential injury to people or their property; on the premises including the hired help and is therefore the responsibility of the venue operator/corporate body, legally.
I hate all that $heeite in my life. I really do and I'm glad for the moment I've never been hit with that, "oh, and you'll be producing your liability insurance, is that your PAT cert your wiping your ers with Mr Mahog? Well need that for our records", "oh sorry, I'll run it under the tap for you, there you are". Next they'll be asking for a Urine sample.
Re: Ceilidh Band PA Systems - PAT Test Certificates
Quite so Mr Mix, but if you take all that bull to it's logical conclusion with our ever increasingly anal HSE culture, thats where it's heading;
"You'll need to ware gloves to play fiddle, you could cut your fingers on those strings, look here's the required PPE listed in our venue risk assessment" , "I can't understand why your laughing sir if you sit to the left of the fiddle you have to ware safety glasses for your own protection and substance testing is policy for all vendors".
I have to say the quality of the music would suffer given the latter!
Re: Ceilidh Band PA Systems - PAT Test Certificates
Don't even get me started, boys. On my last job I was told I couldn't enter the site because I hadn't been "Commissioning Inducted". I politely pointed out that I'm the Commissioning Engineer, and guess who gives the feckin Commissioning Inductions? And we were told we needed to keep out hard hats on in the luch room because it's part of a construction site...hadaway'n'sh*te!
Re: Ceilidh Band PA Systems - PAT Test Certificates
Don't forget the cellist's spike - could be lethal (mine's sharpened to a few nanometers radius, so it ionizes the air if I move it around). But to be fair, I'm always careful on stage with the band when there are trailing cables all over the floor.
Re: Ceilidh Band PA Systems - PAT Test Certificates
Old enough to remember the days of steam driven amplifiers?.
Indeed I am Mr Mix........indeed I am....We traded in a bloody good megaphone to get our first amp....
______________________________
The Dance Hall lit by Tilley Lamp
A twelve volt battery powered amp,
That sometimes cackled, spat and spluttered
With every word the compere uttered.
__________________________________
Re: Ceilidh Band PA Systems - PAT Test Certificates
As an electrical engineer in a former life, I feel qualified to inspect my own equipment (and will go blind).
The frequency of PAT depends on how much the PA is used. If you do 10 gigs a year, probably every 3 or 4 years will do. If you do 50 gigs a year, that is a lot of wear/tare/vibration on the equipment so every 1 - 2 years would be wise.
Thats not all the story - not only do you have to have regular PATs, you need to do a manual inspection every time you use the equipment and record the fact and any defects found.
Check the plug screw is tight - check the cable clamp hasn't pulled out.
As well as the PAT, you also MUST have Public Liability Insurance. I keep a copy of mine online as it is asked for regularly - its free with the Musicians Union.
Not only can your equipment fail electrically, it can fail mechanically. We had an instance last year where a speaker tripod snapped off at the joint and the speaker came crashing down. Luckily no one was underneath - thats what you need PLI for.
Ceilidh Band PA Systems - PAT Test Certificates
Ceilidh Band PA Systems - PAT Test Certificates
My band played last Saturday at a rather posh venue (our usual venues are village halls, barns etc).
I was the first to arrive - with the band's PA. The door was manned by two uniformed security personnel. Well, there's nothing like a uniform to give you that feeling of power!
One of them demanded to see the PAT test certificates relating to our PA. (for those of you not in the UK, or otherwise may not know, "PAT" stands for "Portable Appliance Test").
Well, I'm not exactly known for being a pro-establishment figure, so I was rather tempted to say: "Well, Pat tested it last week, and he said that it was fine!"
However, as we did want to honour our booking (and thinking quickly on my feet), I replied: "All of our eqiuipment is brand new, and therefore not yet subject to a PAT test".
It worked - I was cordially waved through.
So, there you have it. If you play in a ceilidh/ceili band, yet another pitfall to watch out for ....
.. it was so much easier (and better) in the old days ....
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Ceilidh Band PA Systems - PAT Test Certificates
But that will only work if you don't have kit that is battered to f***!
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by SineadE
Re: Ceilidh Band PA Systems - PAT Test Certificates
In the fifties before many rural dance halls in Ireland had electricty, we had to run the PA from the battery of the car that conveyed us to the gig. I suppose they'd be looking for an MOT Cert as well as a PAT Cert nowadays.
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by Free Reed
Re: Ceilidh Band PA Systems - PAT Test Certificates
True, SineadE. But I was actually being economical with the truth! (Although we did replace all of our old gear about 18 months ago).
However, even if we had still had our old gear (vintage 1976!), we would have still got away with it - that security guard didn't actually ask to SEE the PA!
When dealing with security personnel (or other jobsworth types) you just need to understand their mindset. Most of these characters weren't exactly in the front of the queue when the braincells were handed out ...
With these characters, you just have to blag it ....
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Ceilidh Band PA Systems - PAT Test Certificates
You mean that you're actually not old enough to remember the old steam-driven PA, Free Reed?
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Ceilidh Band PA Systems - PAT Test Certificates
I like the style Mr Mix, sometimes blagging is the only way to save the day. That cheered me up, PAT test whatever next lol
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by Solidmahog
Re: Ceilidh Band PA Systems - PAT Test Certificates
Solidmahog - not only was our PA all checked out by that fanmous irish electronics engineer (Pat Tester), but it was also designed by yet another famous Irish electronics engineer - Pat Pending!
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Ceilidh Band PA Systems - PAT Test Certificates
We had a gig at a hotel who insisted on PAT testing and public liability insurance, just last week. Luckily we were forewarned and came with the necessary paper work.
The DJ who was playing after us had had his equipment tested but did not have the certificate yet (the electrician had not sent it). He was made to wait outside for nearly two hours until he eventually managed to contact the electrician on a mobile phone, who then convinced the duty manager that his gear was up to spec. The hotel wouldn't take the "new gear" exemption into account (the DJ's kit was less than twelve months old).
Our electrician told us that many people don't realise that equipment less than twelve months old and under warranty does not legally need PAT testing.
I also did some research on the internet, and there is no legally defined time for frequency of retesting etc.
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by bodatcha
Re: Ceilidh Band PA Systems - PAT Test Certificates
'You VILL show us your paperz for your ekvipment...'
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Ceilidh Band PA Systems - PAT Test Certificates
It's an insurance ballax, btw, if your are hosting the event then you may well need 3rd party liability insurance and perhaps good old Pat can handle the testing....... But if the venue or the event organiser is hosting the event and your hired to play at said event then they should hold 3rd PI as it's their gig not the band, tiz the law. 3rd PI is for potential injury to people or their property; on the premises including the hired help and is therefore the responsibility of the venue operator/corporate body, legally.
I hate all that $heeite in my life. I really do and I'm glad for the moment I've never been hit with that, "oh, and you'll be producing your liability insurance, is that your PAT cert your wiping your ers with Mr Mahog? Well need that for our records", "oh sorry, I'll run it under the tap for you, there you are". Next they'll be asking for a Urine sample.
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by Solidmahog
Re: Ceilidh Band PA Systems - PAT Test Certificates
Urine sample, Solidmahog? Well, that would be taking the p**s!
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Ceilidh Band PA Systems - PAT Test Certificates
Quite so Mr Mix, but if you take all that bull to it's logical conclusion with our ever increasingly anal HSE culture, thats where it's heading;
"You'll need to ware gloves to play fiddle, you could cut your fingers on those strings, look here's the required PPE listed in our venue risk assessment" , "I can't understand why your laughing sir if you sit to the left of the fiddle you have to ware safety glasses for your own protection and substance testing is policy for all vendors".
I have to say the quality of the music would suffer given the latter!
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by Solidmahog
Re: Ceilidh Band PA Systems - PAT Test Certificates
Don't even get me started, boys. On my last job I was told I couldn't enter the site because I hadn't been "Commissioning Inducted". I politely pointed out that I'm the Commissioning Engineer, and guess who gives the feckin Commissioning Inductions? And we were told we needed to keep out hard hats on in the luch room because it's part of a construction site...hadaway'n'sh*te!
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by bc_box_player
Re: Ceilidh Band PA Systems - PAT Test Certificates
I thought they were a Geordie Legal Partnership!
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by Ebor_fiddler
Re: Ceilidh Band PA Systems - PAT Test Certificates
Don't forget the cellist's spike - could be lethal (mine's sharpened to a few nanometers radius, so it ionizes the air if I move it around). But to be fair, I'm always careful on stage with the band when there are trailing cables all over the floor.
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by lazyhound
Re: Ceilidh Band PA Systems - PAT Test Certificates
Old enough to remember the days of steam driven amplifiers?.
Indeed I am Mr Mix........indeed I am....We traded in a bloody good megaphone to get our first amp....
______________________________
The Dance Hall lit by Tilley Lamp
A twelve volt battery powered amp,
That sometimes cackled, spat and spluttered
With every word the compere uttered.
__________________________________
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by Free Reed
Re: Ceilidh Band PA Systems - PAT Test Certificates
Another opportunity for the geezers in the dodgy pubs - I bought an MOT in my local back in the 80s!
# Posted on August 13th 2009 by RockyRoader
Re: Ceilidh Band PA Systems - PAT Test Certificates
Anybody with a computer and a half decent printer could knock out something more impressive than my real PAT certificate.
# Posted on August 13th 2009 by bodatcha
Re: Ceilidh Band PA Systems - PAT Test Certificates
As an electrical engineer in a former life, I feel qualified to inspect my own equipment (and will go blind).
The frequency of PAT depends on how much the PA is used. If you do 10 gigs a year, probably every 3 or 4 years will do. If you do 50 gigs a year, that is a lot of wear/tare/vibration on the equipment so every 1 - 2 years would be wise.
Thats not all the story - not only do you have to have regular PATs, you need to do a manual inspection every time you use the equipment and record the fact and any defects found.
Check the plug screw is tight - check the cable clamp hasn't pulled out.
As well as the PAT, you also MUST have Public Liability Insurance. I keep a copy of mine online as it is asked for regularly - its free with the Musicians Union.
Not only can your equipment fail electrically, it can fail mechanically. We had an instance last year where a speaker tripod snapped off at the joint and the speaker came crashing down. Luckily no one was underneath - thats what you need PLI for.
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by geoffwright