How many folks here have actually encountered Guitars, Bass Guitars or Mandolins being plugged in at Sessions or on stage, at Festivals?
Is it OK for groups on stage to use Electricity for their Guitars, Bass Guitars or Mandolins, but not for powered up instruments to be used in Sessions?
Where do you stand on this?
Have you ever before heard of folks going to a music festival & then start complaining about the volume of the Music?
My own thoughts are that if the other musicians in the session were happy to let the Electric Bass player join them, then the listeners should but out & move to another session, if they didn't like that one, or just STFU!
I guess some people are just not happy unless they're moaning about something!
There's nobody like that around here though ................. is there?
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
I've been a big fan of folk-rock for many years, particularly the playing of bassists Ashley Hutchings, Dave Pegg and Maartin Alcock. But I've also attended one event where I had to go to bed early because I couldn't stand an overamplified bass that clunked along with every tune, clearly making it up most of the time. It was fecking terrible, and no mistake. And what was worse, it was all I could hear from the campsite for the reat of the night.
So I guess it's the usual "guns don't kill people, people kill people" answer for me. Depends entirely on the musical sensitivity of the bassist.
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
I don't think there is a problem with the instrument or the amplifier. The problem lies with the person who brings it - anyone who wants to bring an electric bass to a session probably doesn't understand the music.
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
I think players of particularly noticeable instruments have a particular responsibility to use them responsibly. I can remember many occasions over my 40 years of playing where other people's enjoyment have been completely disrupted by instruments as unusual (in a traditional music environment) as trombones, electric piano, double basses, stroh fiddles, electric guitar, drum kits and large bodhrans played undamped. Some of these are capable of levels far in excess of the average acoustic instrument. The bass instruments produce enormously long wavelengths and therefore have enormous carrying power.
At our National Folk Festival, there is a very large room called the Session Bar. On any Festival night, you can find maybe 6 to 8 sessions - Trad Aust, Trad Irish, Not-So-Trad Irish, Bluegrass, Old Timey, Singing, weird stuff, etc. Because of the size of the room and reasonably intelligent mutual respect, these can co-exist. But add one powerful low pitch instrument anywhere near the middle of the room, and suddenly everyone else gets the feeling they are out of tune. Not good.
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
No self-respecting bluegrasser would play an electric instrument in that environment. I've been to many bluegrass festivals and have never seen an electric bass, onstage or in the campgrounds.
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
FWIW:
I have not seen a lot of electric basses show up at what sessions I've been to in the NE USA, nor do I want to really.
But I have seen more electric pianos than I care to.
IMHO only, but I want no part of pianos, especially electric ones, mixing with fiddles when it is Irish trad. It is a sinful thing, unnatural, vile, and against all the wills of all the Gods. Such people should be tarred and feathered and ridden out of town on a rail.
My personal prejudice, I will grant you.
Have a nice one.
Scottish and Cape Breton is another story. I rather like it.
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
Rook,
You are clearly not against all Electric instruments in all Trad Music situations, so I'm just wondering where do you stand on say, the guy who brings a wee battery amp for his Mandolin, when he goes to a festival, cause he knows he just won't hear his Mandolin in those huge Festival Sessions?
N.B. I'm with you bc_box_player
Skreech, are you telling us that if one of the World's finest Electric Bass Players asked to sit in on your session, you'd tell them to F. O.?
Not me! I'd be very, very curious!
Of course I can't picture that happening in a wee pub in West Clare, but it could happen at somewhere like Glastonbury.
Shanty, unlike you, I don't dislike any musical instrument, but players, now that's a different matter.
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
Ptarmigan, don't forget that bluegrass mandolins have that different shape that makes them much louder than Irish-style ones. There is no need to amp them.
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
It it's a come-all-ye session, fine. Just don't expect people to move so you can plug in, and temper the volume to suit the setting.
I'm all for the busking amp at loud sessions. Not much point in playing if you can't her it yourself.
We've an acoustic festival locally. 25 to 30 gigs over the weekend, all in small venues.
Over 10 years, we've only had three electric basses, not counting the ceilidh bands.
All the better for that too!
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
Oh. I thought you were talking about bluegrass festivals/sessions.
Where I am, on the American side of the pond, the only time you see amplification is when the bar owners want the music to blare over the loud din of the drunk customers, and it all ends up being a cacophony that hurts my ears.
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
I was first into the session and hid an amp under the table, and connected up a Roland V2 electronic accordion.
No-one noticed untill someone commented on the flashing lights on it.
I only did it for a dare.
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
I felt that the amplification on the Gig Rig at last years Fleadh in Tullamore was so loud it was painful at times. It drown out the nearby street sessions. Not the fault of the musicians but has to be down to the 'sound crew' who are probably use to doing Rock Concerts.
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
I've played in old-time sessions where there is an electric bass. In one instance, the guy had the volume turned really low, was sensitive about it. There is a gal in this neck of the woods that plays electric bass at jam sessions, in contests (as back up), and she plays with the volume a little louder, but not too loud. She's a nice gal and doesn't put herself out there in front of others; understands her role.
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
Ptarmigan: "Skreech, are you telling us that if one of the World's finest Electric Bass Players asked to sit in on your session, you'd tell them to F. O.?"
I can't see how that situation would ever occur. I know a lot of bassists, and none of them ONLY play bass guitar. Any musician of that calibre would turn up to a session with an appropriate instrument, or be content to sit and listen if the bass was the only thing he was carrying.
As to whether would want to play with 'the worlds best electric bassist': yes, I would be desparate to play with him. But not in a session. (Apart from anything else, I would want to be playing my electric fiddle or Les Paul, neither of which I would ever deam of taking to a session). It's not about particular instruments being 'good' or 'bad', it is about them being appropriate for the particular genre of music.
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
would the 'worlds greatest' electric guitar player, complete with fuzz tone and wah-wah pedal be welcomed under this logic? Acoustic guitar is an appropriate instrument....but a stratocaster?
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
Skreech wrote - "It's not about particular instruments being 'good' or 'bad', it is about them being appropriate for the particular genre of music."
Fair enough, but all I'm saying is I would never turn an excellent musician away from one of our sessions.
Granted, some instruments are more appropriate than others, but thankfully there are no hard & fast rules, otherwise we may never have seen all those NEW instruments being adopted into Irish Music, that we have since come to know & love, like the Bouzouki, the Accordion etc etc.
Let's face it, In many circles even instruments like the Piano Accordion, still struggle to gain acceptance!
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
"Where do you stand on this?" Directly behind my three quarter size Engelhardt bass fiddle which I think is a more appropriate instrument for playing bluegrass, old-time, and/or folk music--especially in "jam" sessions such as were occurring at this Fiddler's Convention. I do have an electric bass which I mostly use when I play at a blues jam or when I play with the band at church.
It sounds to me as if part of the problem here may be either an inexperienced or incompetent person operating the sound system. Someone who doesn't know how to mix the instruments to or on the proper levels so no one instrument stands out and dominates the others.
I play my bass fiddle once a month with an old time folk music group that has a strict acoustic instruments only policy. The only concession we have made to "modernity" is providing a microphone for the people who might need one.
As for the local Irish Sessions, when I told them which instruments I played and asked whether or not I might bring one of my instruments and start participating in the Sessions, I was asked to bring my electric piano instead of my bass. If someone has a problem with this, they need to take it up with the other musicians at the local Sessions.
So some people prefer bass players who do it upright instead of with electricity?
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
Ptarmigan: you wrote -
"You are clearly not against all Electric instruments in all Trad Music situations, so I'm just wondering where do you stand on say, the guy who brings a wee battery amp for his Mandolin, when he goes to a festival, cause he knows he just won't hear his Mandolin in those huge Festival Sessions?"
As a matter of fact, I truly do not like piano for much with ceili music no matter whom the player. Electric piano is simply worse, for me personally. And I tend to view electric instruments as I do brass ones - I find them a bit out of place at a theoretically Irish session, at least where I have played.
As for your hypothetical mandolin player, where I stood would all depend on the group he wishes to join in with -
logical?
It is for them, and any listeners "trapped" within earshot, to make up their own minds whether he is giving any offense -
true?
For my part, as a player or as a listener, I can only reasonably bend to the majority rule if the mandolin player is made welcome, no matter how he sound.
It is not MY session alone -
also true?
As a matter of necessity for a lone mando man up against a bunch of others drowning him out, an amp may be his answer but it has not yet been mine. I can either blend into the mob, or find a smaller group, but turning up the volume electronically - show me the pickup/amp that does not take away any of the qualities of the mandolin that I do love, and you may sell me on it.
Otherwise, thus far, it is not for me.
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
Skreech, I'm married to an electric bassist, and I play with him all the time...but not in our Session. At Session his role is to bring me a beer and tap his foot appropriately...which he does with gusto.
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
Fort Wayne Fiddler, sometimes my wife likes to tease me about "playing" with me and I jokingly ask her what does she think I am--a guitar? Since I play bass (both acoustic and electric), perhaps you could sympathize with my wife. No, my wife isn't a musician but she is my Number One Fan and roadie.
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
I just bought a Roland fr1 electronic accordion and tried it at my local session. The key feature is the volume control knob which I set so low I don't think anyone could be bothered by it. If I could actually keep up better I would turn it up a little. I think the sounds of some of the settings are a actually better match than the old two reed model I was bringing before. Also the bass volume can be controlled down separately which is a big improvement to keep from conflict with the guitars. Also using the headphone a lot now to practice.
If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
Looks like there was trouble in paradise!
"Festival attendees pickin' fights over electric basses"
http://roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/214493
How many folks here have actually encountered Guitars, Bass Guitars or Mandolins being plugged in at Sessions or on stage, at Festivals?
Is it OK for groups on stage to use Electricity for their Guitars, Bass Guitars or Mandolins, but not for powered up instruments to be used in Sessions?
Where do you stand on this?
Have you ever before heard of folks going to a music festival & then start complaining about the volume of the Music?
My own thoughts are that if the other musicians in the session were happy to let the Electric Bass player join them, then the listeners should but out & move to another session, if they didn't like that one, or just STFU!
I guess some people are just not happy unless they're moaning about something!
There's nobody like that around here though ................. is there?
# Posted on August 10th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
If God didn't want them to be w@nkers, he would have handed out shorter arms.
# Posted on August 10th 2009 by mcknowall
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
I've been a big fan of folk-rock for many years, particularly the playing of bassists Ashley Hutchings, Dave Pegg and Maartin Alcock. But I've also attended one event where I had to go to bed early because I couldn't stand an overamplified bass that clunked along with every tune, clearly making it up most of the time. It was fecking terrible, and no mistake. And what was worse, it was all I could hear from the campsite for the reat of the night.
So I guess it's the usual "guns don't kill people, people kill people" answer for me. Depends entirely on the musical sensitivity of the bassist.
# Posted on August 10th 2009 by bc_box_player
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
I don't think there is a problem with the instrument or the amplifier. The problem lies with the person who brings it - anyone who wants to bring an electric bass to a session probably doesn't understand the music.
# Posted on August 10th 2009 by skreech
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
I think players of particularly noticeable instruments have a particular responsibility to use them responsibly. I can remember many occasions over my 40 years of playing where other people's enjoyment have been completely disrupted by instruments as unusual (in a traditional music environment) as trombones, electric piano, double basses, stroh fiddles, electric guitar, drum kits and large bodhrans played undamped. Some of these are capable of levels far in excess of the average acoustic instrument. The bass instruments produce enormously long wavelengths and therefore have enormous carrying power.
At our National Folk Festival, there is a very large room called the Session Bar. On any Festival night, you can find maybe 6 to 8 sessions - Trad Aust, Trad Irish, Not-So-Trad Irish, Bluegrass, Old Timey, Singing, weird stuff, etc. Because of the size of the room and reasonably intelligent mutual respect, these can co-exist. But add one powerful low pitch instrument anywhere near the middle of the room, and suddenly everyone else gets the feeling they are out of tune. Not good.
Terry
# Posted on August 10th 2009 by Terry McGee
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
6-8 is a very conservative guess mate closer to 20 on a big night, and the morris dancer with the lambeg in the middle of the room,grrr!
# Posted on August 10th 2009 by mcknowall
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
Favorite quote from the article--"I'd rather be around the swine flu than an electric bass."
Sums up my feelings too.
# Posted on August 10th 2009 by shanty
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
No self-respecting bluegrasser would play an electric instrument in that environment. I've been to many bluegrass festivals and have never seen an electric bass, onstage or in the campgrounds.
# Posted on August 10th 2009 by kennedy
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
FWIW:
I have not seen a lot of electric basses show up at what sessions I've been to in the NE USA, nor do I want to really.
But I have seen more electric pianos than I care to.
IMHO only, but I want no part of pianos, especially electric ones, mixing with fiddles when it is Irish trad. It is a sinful thing, unnatural, vile, and against all the wills of all the Gods. Such people should be tarred and feathered and ridden out of town on a rail.
My personal prejudice, I will grant you.
Have a nice one.
Scottish and Cape Breton is another story. I rather like it.
# Posted on August 10th 2009 by Piece
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
Pardon me, Ptarmigan,
on re-reading your posting I realize I may not have responded to the question -
Volume WAS an issue at more than one festival I have attended when the electricals joined in.
So, yes, I have been witness to a few complaints.
# Posted on August 10th 2009 by Piece
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
Rook,
You are clearly not against all Electric instruments in all Trad Music situations, so I'm just wondering where do you stand on say, the guy who brings a wee battery amp for his Mandolin, when he goes to a festival, cause he knows he just won't hear his Mandolin in those huge Festival Sessions?
N.B. I'm with you bc_box_player
Skreech, are you telling us that if one of the World's finest Electric Bass Players asked to sit in on your session, you'd tell them to F. O.?
Not me! I'd be very, very curious!
Of course I can't picture that happening in a wee pub in West Clare, but it could happen at somewhere like Glastonbury.
Shanty, unlike you, I don't dislike any musical instrument, but players, now that's a different matter.
# Posted on August 10th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
Ptarmigan, don't forget that bluegrass mandolins have that different shape that makes them much louder than Irish-style ones. There is no need to amp them.
# Posted on August 10th 2009 by kennedy
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
It it's a come-all-ye session, fine. Just don't expect people to move so you can plug in, and temper the volume to suit the setting.
I'm all for the busking amp at loud sessions. Not much point in playing if you can't her it yourself.
We've an acoustic festival locally. 25 to 30 gigs over the weekend, all in small venues.
Over 10 years, we've only had three electric basses, not counting the ceilidh bands.
All the better for that too!
# Posted on August 10th 2009 by RockyRoader
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
No Kennedy, I'm thinking more of the Mandolins used in Trad circles over here.
I've seen that happen on more than one occasion, so I know some Mandolin players do work a Battery Amp, in certain circumstances.
# Posted on August 10th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
Oh. I thought you were talking about bluegrass festivals/sessions.
Where I am, on the American side of the pond, the only time you see amplification is when the bar owners want the music to blare over the loud din of the drunk customers, and it all ends up being a cacophony that hurts my ears.
# Posted on August 10th 2009 by kennedy
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
I was first into the session and hid an amp under the table, and connected up a Roland V2 electronic accordion.
No-one noticed untill someone commented on the flashing lights on it.
I only did it for a dare.
# Posted on August 10th 2009 by geoffwright
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
I felt that the amplification on the Gig Rig at last years Fleadh in Tullamore was so loud it was painful at times. It drown out the nearby street sessions. Not the fault of the musicians but has to be down to the 'sound crew' who are probably use to doing Rock Concerts.
# Posted on August 10th 2009 by Free Reed
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
Hey Geoff, can you imagine a session where ALL the instruments had lights flashing on them ..... in time to the music? ... Trad Funk!
# Posted on August 10th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
I've played in old-time sessions where there is an electric bass. In one instance, the guy had the volume turned really low, was sensitive about it. There is a gal in this neck of the woods that plays electric bass at jam sessions, in contests (as back up), and she plays with the volume a little louder, but not too loud. She's a nice gal and doesn't put herself out there in front of others; understands her role.
# Posted on August 10th 2009 by Wyogal
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
granted, I prefer an acoustic bass, either upright or acoustic bass guitar.
# Posted on August 10th 2009 by Wyogal
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
Ptarmigan: "Skreech, are you telling us that if one of the World's finest Electric Bass Players asked to sit in on your session, you'd tell them to F. O.?"
I can't see how that situation would ever occur. I know a lot of bassists, and none of them ONLY play bass guitar. Any musician of that calibre would turn up to a session with an appropriate instrument, or be content to sit and listen if the bass was the only thing he was carrying.
As to whether would want to play with 'the worlds best electric bassist': yes, I would be desparate to play with him. But not in a session. (Apart from anything else, I would want to be playing my electric fiddle or Les Paul, neither of which I would ever deam of taking to a session). It's not about particular instruments being 'good' or 'bad', it is about them being appropriate for the particular genre of music.
# Posted on August 10th 2009 by skreech
Slighty off topic diversion
Muddy Waters at Newport Festival 1960
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_xlojxoT9s&feature
I love this clip ;)
carry on
# Posted on August 10th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
would the 'worlds greatest' electric guitar player, complete with fuzz tone and wah-wah pedal be welcomed under this logic? Acoustic guitar is an appropriate instrument....but a stratocaster?
what about artfully played kazoos and trombones?
# Posted on August 10th 2009 by zippydw
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
Skreech wrote - "It's not about particular instruments being 'good' or 'bad', it is about them being appropriate for the particular genre of music."
Fair enough, but all I'm saying is I would never turn an excellent musician away from one of our sessions.
Granted, some instruments are more appropriate than others, but thankfully there are no hard & fast rules, otherwise we may never have seen all those NEW instruments being adopted into Irish Music, that we have since come to know & love, like the Bouzouki, the Accordion etc etc.
Let's face it, In many circles even instruments like the Piano Accordion, still struggle to gain acceptance!
# Posted on August 10th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
Random_notes, that clip is absolutely awesome, best thing I've watched for some time. Thanks
# Posted on August 10th 2009 by strayaway
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
Mr. P! You radical!
Actually, aren't piano accordions made to be played outside anyway, like Great Highland Bagpipes? (ha ha)
# Posted on August 10th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
Accordion players and bag pipers....the Rodney Dangerfields of ITM
# Posted on August 10th 2009 by zippydw
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
"Where do you stand on this?" Directly behind my three quarter size Engelhardt bass fiddle which I think is a more appropriate instrument for playing bluegrass, old-time, and/or folk music--especially in "jam" sessions such as were occurring at this Fiddler's Convention. I do have an electric bass which I mostly use when I play at a blues jam or when I play with the band at church.
It sounds to me as if part of the problem here may be either an inexperienced or incompetent person operating the sound system. Someone who doesn't know how to mix the instruments to or on the proper levels so no one instrument stands out and dominates the others.
I play my bass fiddle once a month with an old time folk music group that has a strict acoustic instruments only policy. The only concession we have made to "modernity" is providing a microphone for the people who might need one.
As for the local Irish Sessions, when I told them which instruments I played and asked whether or not I might bring one of my instruments and start participating in the Sessions, I was asked to bring my electric piano instead of my bass. If someone has a problem with this, they need to take it up with the other musicians at the local Sessions.
So some people prefer bass players who do it upright instead of with electricity?
# Posted on August 11th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
If Santa had wanted us to play with electric toys ... he'd have given us a life time supply of double As.
Oh ... hang on ... Santa doesn't exist.
# Posted on August 11th 2009 by ...
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
Ptarmigan: you wrote -
"You are clearly not against all Electric instruments in all Trad Music situations, so I'm just wondering where do you stand on say, the guy who brings a wee battery amp for his Mandolin, when he goes to a festival, cause he knows he just won't hear his Mandolin in those huge Festival Sessions?"
As a matter of fact, I truly do not like piano for much with ceili music no matter whom the player. Electric piano is simply worse, for me personally. And I tend to view electric instruments as I do brass ones - I find them a bit out of place at a theoretically Irish session, at least where I have played.
As for your hypothetical mandolin player, where I stood would all depend on the group he wishes to join in with -
logical?
It is for them, and any listeners "trapped" within earshot, to make up their own minds whether he is giving any offense -
true?
For my part, as a player or as a listener, I can only reasonably bend to the majority rule if the mandolin player is made welcome, no matter how he sound.
It is not MY session alone -
also true?
As a matter of necessity for a lone mando man up against a bunch of others drowning him out, an amp may be his answer but it has not yet been mine. I can either blend into the mob, or find a smaller group, but turning up the volume electronically - show me the pickup/amp that does not take away any of the qualities of the mandolin that I do love, and you may sell me on it.
Otherwise, thus far, it is not for me.
# Posted on August 11th 2009 by Piece
If God were one of us ..............
glad you enjoyed the clip strayaway.
;)
# Posted on August 11th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
Skreech, I'm married to an electric bassist, and I play with him all the time...but not in our Session. At Session his role is to bring me a beer and tap his foot appropriately...which he does with gusto.
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by Fort Wayne Fiddler
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
Fort Wayne Fiddler, sometimes my wife likes to tease me about "playing" with me and I jokingly ask her what does she think I am--a guitar? Since I play bass (both acoustic and electric), perhaps you could sympathize with my wife. No, my wife isn't a musician but she is my Number One Fan and roadie.
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
We would have a plug socket instead of a navel
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
The Roland V2 electronic accordion at least has a headphone jack. Stick that in your bagpipe and smoke it.
# Posted on August 13th 2009 by Lint - upon - Tweed
Re: If God had wanted us to play Electric instruments ..............
I just bought a Roland fr1 electronic accordion and tried it at my local session. The key feature is the volume control knob which I set so low I don't think anyone could be bothered by it. If I could actually keep up better I would turn it up a little. I think the sounds of some of the settings are a actually better match than the old two reed model I was bringing before. Also the bass volume can be controlled down separately which is a big improvement to keep from conflict with the guitars. Also using the headphone a lot now to practice.
# Posted on September 15th 2009 by torsdag