Interesting debate on Liveline, RTE1 radio this afternoon regarding De Danann. Basically Frankie Gavin announced the reformation of De Danann a couple on months ago and they are starting a tour etc. However, some of the original members like Alec Finn and Johnny Ringo McDonough are not part of the new band and object to the name being used by Frankie Gavin. Seems to me like they have a good point but apparently the new band is 'Frankie Gavin and De Danann', which is supposed to be OK!!
Anyway Tony MacMahon wades in and throws insults at Alec and defends Frankie as a brilliant fiddler and a melody player to boot, not a backing player!!! Normally, I'd be a fan of Tony but think he's a bit OTT in this case. If you miss this entertaining piece, I'm sure you can listen back later..
Shades of the old Peter Sellers record 'A drop of the hardstuff' I'l not take that talk from anybody, do ya hear me.....with Joe Duffy shouting "My microphone, my microphone, you're ruining the tape.......! Great stuff.
"... & he wouldn't be my favourite" nice one Johnny!
As for Tony MacMahon, he did himself absolutely no favours at all, by coming out with that load of old bo££ocks .. slagging off the one & only Alec Finn like that ... & the mighty Johnny, too!
I reckon some of his drivel was even borderline racist $hite!
After that, Tony should be hanging his head down low!
I suggest you call your analyst soon Sir, for it sounds like your losing the plot!
In my opinion, the use of the name De Dannan for that concert surely has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with music & everything to do with Gavin chasing a fast buck!
That's an interesting observation, pavlf - I suppose what commerce & greed eventually lead to..
What I find curious and maybe someone here can throw some light on it - is that another thread on the same topic was started above by someone called 'GQ' (who obviously didn't check first). But who the hell is GQ?
GQ has no history here but one has to suspect that they are a regular member here, who set up a new user name, so they could hide their views behind that.... I must admit, I don't care for that sort of cowardice. If you use your normal handle, then you feel obliged to be moderate in your tone and that's the way it should be. So who is GQ?
>That's what happens when sites like this encourage bodhran >and guitar bashing, spreading to any sort of "backing".
>OK to insult a legend like me, but suddenly it is wrong if it is >Alec Finn?
>People in glass houses.....
Bliss, shouldn't you be busy gloating in the fact that a Bodhranist is now officially seen as a first class accompaniest, whereas a bouzouki player is merely second class?
what is bodhran *bliss* ?
Yes, a user name obviously. But is bodhran bashing, from behind the drum, a special form of elixir?
I think it may be different on the other side of the goat.
I heard the Wolf Tone debate on radio today. Talk about brotherly love. I have a friend who attended a recent Wolf Tone concert, or was it a Wolf Tone concert, anyway it was one of them and he reckoned it was an 'incitement to riot'. So nothings changed there then. Years ago I was in a band called The Symbolics and we fell out. They called themselves The Sym and told me they'd have no objection calling myself what whatever I wanted. .........I know ....I know....but there may be someone out there who hadn't heard it?
Early sixties actually, man. Didn't make the High Court, the case was laughed out of a lower court.and I went on to join Snotty and the Nosepickers..... Thank you 'paviv'...I knew you were out there. lol
Tony MacMahon made a haims of his point on RTÉ, but I think he was making a stand in the battle of ranking the importance of various elements of the tradition. It is true that Guinness is a part of the tradition, but it is surely not as important to it as the evolution of Irish fiddle ornamentation, or the Irish break throughs on button accordion or the development in complexity of melodies across the ages in the Irish tradition.
The same might be said about accompanyists as MacMahon was saying. Experimental bodhrán players bringing in foreign influences which can be wonderful, but which could easily overshadow and ruin the melodists work which is essentially more ancient work. But I don't want to ruin the idea that bodhrán players might not be reviving lost beats, or whatever.
I just think that Tony MacMahon made a mess of saying something that is hard to say. Picking on Alec Finn was probably way off I think, and just bad behavior, but honest opinion is interesting. Maybe he has a reason to think that about Finn, I think not.
Defending native Irish arts and the development of our unique stuff above all additions, is probably cruddy and bitter work sometimes, and a warrior for this kind of thing might go off on a tare against symbols etc. Folkly, hippie and worldy type of rock and roll stuff is numerically much more powerful than the small traditions Ireland has held onto, and so its defenders might be vehement in a more immediate and life-defending type of way. Anyway MacMahon is a mighty box player and good for the tradition. He's a crappy diplomat that's for sure, but don't we need a little bit of that. A little bit. Not too much.
What's it to ya if I didn't? Or did for that matter? Who cares about that stuff, we're talking about music. There's other forums and day time TV for what you are on about.
Can you not be a musician and an acompanist as well?
I said this on another forum but I`ll say it again. MacMahon in those statements has some sort of ax to grind. Whether it be to defend a friend or bigotry against Anglo Irish musicians I don`t know. But it stinks for sure!
Fair play to Tony, a fellow ennisman. He speaks out the truth and is passionate about preserving the true tradition. He has music from when he was young and has met all the greats unlike these opportunists who jump on the bandwagon when the music gets popular
"and has met all the greats" So have many Dublin Taxi drivers, but that doesn't make them, great saviours of Irish Traditional Music, ennisman.
But on a more serious note ennisman, you say "Fair play to Tony," so you are actually congratulating a man who publicly slagged off Alec as a musician & discriminated against him for not being a pure Irishman, and this, against Alec Finn, a musician who in my opinion, is one of the great, forward thinking innovators within the Irish Music scene of the past 40 years.
Shame on you!
I'm sure we are all eternally greatful to all those great & wonderful musicians of the past, who managed to carry the music on for us, through the lean years. However, I believe that, what has made Irish Traditional Music the World phenomenon that it is today, is not just that Pure Drop we all talk of, nor is it just due to all the wonderful, exciting & vibrant musical innovations that have evolved within & into the Irish Traditional Music we know and love today, but rather a combination of the two.
There are plenty of examples of countries who possess fantastic Traditional Music of their own, but in those countries, so often the luddites won through and managed to preserve, nae mothball their tradition, to the point where it became, no longer attractive to the next generation.
The luddites must realise that each generation must be allowed to embrace the tradition as their own, and that will mean they be allowed to tweak it a little at the edges, so what. This, my friends, is how the tradition is kept alive, not by sticking it in a glass case, or resigning it to a dusty book on a library shelf.
The bottom line in all of this chat is, that I know for sure that the younger generation of musicians, all show the older generation of musicians the greatest of respect & hold them and their undoubted talent in great awe. So, for this respect and trust to be thrown back in their faces, by the sort of ill thought out, cruel and frankly very nasty comments that Tony was guilty of that day, is a sad day indeed, for the tradition.
I firmly believe that Tony should publicly apologise to Alec. Please show us Tony that you are a better man, than your comments that day, made you out to be.
Ptarmigan, I'm curious, have you met Tony Mac Mahon, played with him, read his paper to the 1996 Crossroads conference, even listened to to his albums? Without doing so you're judging his remarks on a talk radio programme (that was was looking for controversy) without examining the beliefs behind the remarks. I can accept that his remarks were ill considered in that context because most of the listeners, I suspect yourself included, haven't followed him over the years and know where he's comng from. Your post reads like a daily Mail editorial, to quote Tadhg mac Saoirse in the parallel topic "There's other forums and day time TV for what you are on about."
And if you're somehow suggesting that Tony is a luddite or seeks to fossilize trad . . . to quote a well known Irish-American "You cannot be serious". Have you not seen his multi-media performance piece "The Frost Is All Over"? And through his TV and radio programmes he's done more than most to bring trad to a wider audience.
As for "cruel and frankly very nasty comments" . . . really!
Ptarmigan, digging beneath your own rhetoric there's obviously a strongly held and heart felt sentiment and view of the world. But describing Alec Finn as "a musician who in my opinion, is one of the great, forward thinking innovators within the Irish Music scene of the past 40 years." does you no credit. I know Alec, and I'm pretty sure that while he'd thank you for the compliment, he'd dismiss it for the nonsense it is and go outside for a smoke.
PJ, I don't think it matters how great a musician you may feel Tony is, I really don't believe his fame gives him any more right than anyone else, to be as rude & disrespectful to a fellow musician as he was, on live radio that day.
To answer your question though, I bought my first TM LP back in '77. However, I hope your not implying that because I haven't actually penetrated his inner circle of friends, I somehow have no right to an opinion on his behaviour, that day?
"I can accept that his remarks were ill considered in that context because most of the listeners, I suspect yourself included, haven't followed him over the years and know where he's comng from."
Yes, his remarks were either "ill considered" or they were not and I'm to see that at least we both agree, they were.
I'm curious though, in what context do you think it would be acceptable for Tony to be so rude to Alec?
Perhaps you are implying that he actually makes a habit of this sort of thing behind closed doors and therefore we shouldn't really be surprised by his rhetoric.
If so, do you reckon then that it's OK to behave like this, as long as your not on the Radio?
As for my writing style reading like "a daily Mail editorial", it may be, I have absolutely no idea, so I'll have to bow to your greater knowledge of that particular newspaper.
I just don't see what my style of writing has to do with Tony's behaviour.
As for Alec, I do think he was pretty courageous to stick to his guns, when you consider how alien his Bouzouki would have appeared to fellow Galway musicians, back in the early 70s. Especially when we remember how much more conservative the musicians were back then, compared to today.
So, in the face of all those negative vibes, I do believe he must surely have had a lot of faith in what he was doing.
100% with you there Ptarmigan. Achievements don't make rude and distasteful behavior acceptable. He does the image of Irish trad no favours whatsoever. I've never seen that type of public behavior here in Scotland with regards to trad. Part of what makes the greats great here is that in my experience they are usually the perfect gentlemen/ladies.
Ptarmigan, I'm not going to reply in kind. But perhaps I'm doing you an injustice, perhaps my writing is so sloppy that it doesn't accurately express my thoughts, so let me try again. Let's take your response a paragraph at a time.
Your first paragraph. Contrary to the impression I appear to have given you, I don't think Tony Mac Mahon is a "great" musician (in fact I can't find any comment on his musicianship!). At he's a very fine box player for slow airs. As for dance tunes, to my ear he's a solid player but no great shakes. Others of course, may disagree but his ability as a musician is neither here nor there in this matter, save for one thing: you only have to hear him play to get a sense of how strongly he identifies with the music.
Has anyone, anywhere on this board seriously suggested that gives him any more right than anyone else, to be <as> (sic) rude & disrespectful"? Your righteous indignation is making you leap at shadows.
The key, I suspect, is your classification of Tony's words as "rude & disrespectful". As I said previously, you clearly have a strongly held view that they were thus. I, I'm afraid, disagree. There was no invective, no abusive language (at least not to my ear). Tony was simply expressing his opinion: he just doesn't recognise accompanists as trad musicians. If you'd spent any time in his company or read his paper to the 1996 Crossroads Conference you'd know this. It's the reason he was put on air on a talk radio programme for whom controversy is entertainment.
Turning to your second paragraph. Of course knowledge of the man or otherwise doesn't entitle or bar you from commenting but it does inform those comments.
Paragraph three, of course his remarks were ill-considered, given the forum but that in it self doesn't make them "rude & disrespectful".
Paragraph four. Again I don't recall anyone anywhere on this board seriously suggesting that anyone, in civilised debate, has the right to be rude to another. More shadows on your part I'm afraid.
Paragraph five. Apologies, I thought, the "Daily Mail editorial" reference was common parlance i.e. loud moral indignation. The point being you're making a fuss about nothing.
Paragraph five. From the stories he tells of the time "courageous" is probably stretching it! Courage in the face of "negative vibes"? Yes, I can see why you thought Tony was being "rude"! Sorry Ptarmigan, that was a cheap shot. I should have kept listening to my better angels.
Quite simply we disagree as to what constitutes rudeness. Of course, you'll want to come back at me, but to what end?
"Quite simply we disagree as to what constitutes rudeness."
So you don't think that turning round to one of the most respected Irish musicians, a driving force in the development of the bouzouki in Irish music and one of the founder members of De Dannan and telling him that he is not a musician, he is only an accompanist (and a second rate one at that) and that effectively De Dannan could have been called the Frankie Gavin Band is rude then?
I would hate to experience your level of rudeness then!
"one of the most respected Irish musicians, a driving force in the development of the bouzouki in Irish music". There are so many holes in those assertions that I wouldn't know where to start. And before high horses are mounted, I'm not saying Alec isn't respected or doesn't have a role in the adoption of the bouzouki by trad musicians. It's just the degrees you're asserting that are over the top.
In the context of the radio discussion, while Tony used the phrase "not a musician" he obviously meant "not a trad musician" just as my parents still call trad "the music". Alec would be first to agree he's not a trad musician, he's a musician who plays trad music. If you don't recognise that distinction that of course you're deaf to what Tony is saying. Tony's belief (held by a good number of knowledgeable people over the years including Breandán Breathnach and Tomás Ó Canainn) is that trad is essentially the art of the solo performance. It's that, that informs his choice of language. To an audience that no little about trad his words were patently ill judged.
And of course " De Dannan could have been called the Frankie Gavin Band". You, me, anyone can refer to it anyway they choose. The chosen name may reflect a value judgement but so what? It's not rudeness, it's having an opinion.
I suspect it's my definition of rudeness that you'd hate rather than the level! For Tony "you're not a trad musician" is, I suspect, a simple statement of fact, carries no judgement or moral weight, and as such is incapable of being either polite or rude. If we can agree that verbal rudeness comes down to the choice of words rather than the underlying sentiment then "You're a second rate accompanist" is an opinion expressed in perhaps carelessly chosen words to the uninitiates but without invective. "You're a fecking crap accompanist" would, of course, be rude.
No PJ, he said "not a musician" pure and simple. He also said Ringo is a first class accompanist and Alec was a second class accompanist. He also said with the clear implication that it mattered, that Alec was an Englishman who lived in a castle in Galway. It doesn't matter if you know of him or about his thoughts on traditional music, his outburst was rude, offensive and bordering on racist.
Bogman, "No PJ, he said "not a musician" pure and simple" how do you know what he thought he was saying? You may have heard "not a musician" but to an informed listener the context, and the qualifier, were clear. In my world, and I suspect Tony's, if someone tells you they're a musician during a conversation about trad I automatically assume they play trad.
If I say "you're a fecking idiot" to a complete stranger of course I'm rude; if I say it to my clumsy brother he thinks I'm being affectionate, a third party thinks I'm being rude. Context and knowledge are everything.
And as for the Englishman who lives in a castle in Galway, that was so obviously a throwaway remark to the point that Alec isn't a trad musician.
So PJ, when listening to Tony on the radio are we meant to not just hear what he said but what he actually, on reflection, meant?
From my understanding of Mr MacMahon he is not a stranger to a broadcast setting and you would hope would therefore understand how to convey his thoughts into a microphone (or via telephone as was the case here).
I listened to the show and found the whole thing quite preposterous but Tony MacMahon was the crowning cherry on the entire cake of nonsense.
Leaving aside the idea that Tony might be a self-important, egotistical and offensive racist do you agree with him when he said that Frankie Gavin was De Dannan? Do you, whether he is a "traditional musician" or not, believe that Alec Finn did little to shape the sound of the band? Do you think it is right that Frankie Gavin can, years after De Dannan went their seperate ways, start a new band and give it the name of his old band?
Do you think that I should be able to join up with a few of the guys from the session in Glasgow and call ourselves De Dannan? If we called ourselves Dee Doonan would that make it any better?
"I'm very sympathetic to the plight of musicians born outside of strong Irish communities." and ........"
Start saving for Willie week, if you love the music you'll have the time of your life."
Today you say "You may have heard "not a musician" but to an informed listener the context, and the qualifier, were clear. In my world, and I suspect Tony's"
Get a grip of yourself. You know nothing about me are most of the others on this site. Don't assume yourself to be superior in some way.
No Cause, I know you have a tendency to be flip but let me assume your questions are serious.
"when listening to Tony on the radio are we meant to not just hear what he said but what he actually, on reflection, meant?". Isn't that the respect you show everyone you listen to, particularly in the pressured and artificial environment of talk radio? In the context of a discussion about trad Tony used the term "musician" the way any trad musician would understand it. His mistake, and I agree perhaps surprising given his background, though he's always been poor in front of a mike, was not to allow for an audience that doesn't share his usage.
" do you agree with him when he said that Frankie Gavin was De Dannan?" Absolutely not.
"Do you, whether he is a "traditional musician" or not, believe that Alec Finn did little to shape the sound of the band?" Absolutely not.
"Do you think it is right that Frankie Gavin can, years after De Dannan went their seperate ways, start a new band and give it the name of his old band?" Absolutely not.
That Tony Mac Mahon would give you different answers to those questions doesn't make him "self-important, egotistical and offensive racist". Narrow-minded perhaps, begrudger even, wasn't he called a "Mullah of tradition" on the Late Late Show? I may not agree with everything the man says but I defend his right to say it without unwarranted accusations of rudeness and racism
As for "Do you think that I should be able to join up with a few of the guys from the session in Glasgow and call ourselves De Dannan? If we called ourselves Dee Doonan would that make it any better?" Among other things I'm an Intellectual Property lawyer so if you really want my advice we'll have to agree a fee first! But as a musician, "no" to the first, and "yes of course it would but it all depends on context" to the second.
"That Tony Mac Mahon would give you different answers to those questions doesn't make him "self-important, egotistical and offensive racist". Narrow-minded perhaps, begrudger even, wasn't he called a "Mullah of tradition" on the Late Late Show? I may not agree with everything the man says but I defend his right to say it without unwarranted accusations of rudeness and racism."
Oh, I'm sorry PJ. I was expressing my opinion, as is my right. You will note I said that Tony MIGHT be a self-important, egotistical and offensive racist. He also might not. You never know. I hope you or Tony didn't take offense at my opinion or think me rude.
As a musician then, and not in your professional legal capacity then (I don't want a bill in the post), do you think we should be able to call ourselves the Provisional De Dannan?
Bogman, if I, in anyway, inadvertently represented myself as in anyway "superior" (!) to you or anyone else, or that I possessed knowledge of you or anyone else on this site then I apologise unreservedly.
Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
Interesting debate on Liveline, RTE1 radio this afternoon regarding De Danann. Basically Frankie Gavin announced the reformation of De Danann a couple on months ago and they are starting a tour etc. However, some of the original members like Alec Finn and Johnny Ringo McDonough are not part of the new band and object to the name being used by Frankie Gavin. Seems to me like they have a good point but apparently the new band is 'Frankie Gavin and De Danann', which is supposed to be OK!!
Anyway Tony MacMahon wades in and throws insults at Alec and defends Frankie as a brilliant fiddler and a melody player to boot, not a backing player!!! Normally, I'd be a fan of Tony but think he's a bit OTT in this case. If you miss this entertaining piece, I'm sure you can listen back later..
# Posted on August 5th 2009 by the wounded hussar
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
http://www.rte.ie/radio1/liveline/1210659.html
Bottom right of page, press "Wednesday".
# Posted on August 5th 2009 by snorre
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
Tony McMahon a bit OTT?
(to Alec Finn) "Alec, you don't play [Irish music], you're an accompanist......you're not remotely in the same league..."
Incredible.....
# Posted on August 5th 2009 by snorre
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
"He's (Alec) a second rate accompanist, not a musician"
Hilarious..
# Posted on August 5th 2009 by snorre
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
Shades of the old Peter Sellers record 'A drop of the hardstuff' I'l not take that talk from anybody, do ya hear me.....with Joe Duffy shouting "My microphone, my microphone, you're ruining the tape.......! Great stuff.
# Posted on August 5th 2009 by Free Reed
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
That's what happens when sites like this encourage bodhran and guitar bashing, spreading to any sort of "backing".
OK to insult a legend like me, but suddenly it is wrong if it is Alec Finn?
People in glass houses........
# Posted on August 5th 2009 by bodhran bliss
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
Thanks for the nod Hussar.
"... & he wouldn't be my favourite" nice one Johnny!
As for Tony MacMahon, he did himself absolutely no favours at all, by coming out with that load of old bo££ocks .. slagging off the one & only Alec Finn like that ... & the mighty Johnny, too!
I reckon some of his drivel was even borderline racist $hite!
After that, Tony should be hanging his head down low!
I suggest you call your analyst soon Sir, for it sounds like your losing the plot!
In my opinion, the use of the name De Dannan for that concert surely has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with music & everything to do with Gavin chasing a fast buck!
Very sad!
# Posted on August 6th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
Yeah, it was sad. It was probably the sound of the final nail being driven into the coffin.
It used to be that you could hear it everywhere if you listened closely. Now you can just hear it everywhere.
# Posted on August 6th 2009 by pavlf
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
That's an interesting observation, pavlf - I suppose what commerce & greed eventually lead to..
What I find curious and maybe someone here can throw some light on it - is that another thread on the same topic was started above by someone called 'GQ' (who obviously didn't check first). But who the hell is GQ?
GQ has no history here but one has to suspect that they are a regular member here, who set up a new user name, so they could hide their views behind that.... I must admit, I don't care for that sort of cowardice. If you use your normal handle, then you feel obliged to be moderate in your tone and that's the way it should be. So who is GQ?
# Posted on August 6th 2009 by the wounded hussar
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
>That's what happens when sites like this encourage bodhran >and guitar bashing, spreading to any sort of "backing".
>OK to insult a legend like me, but suddenly it is wrong if it is >Alec Finn?
>People in glass houses.....
Bliss, shouldn't you be busy gloating in the fact that a Bodhranist is now officially seen as a first class accompaniest, whereas a bouzouki player is merely second class?
- chris
# Posted on August 6th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
Anyway, it continues today .. except this time it's the multiple Wolfe Tones. Now, that seems to be really bitter.
# Posted on August 6th 2009 by the wounded hussar
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
But somehow I can't help smiling at the Wolfe Tones having problems
# Posted on August 6th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
Too true, pitchfork!!
# Posted on August 6th 2009 by the wounded hussar
?
what is bodhran *bliss* ?
Yes, a user name obviously. But is bodhran bashing, from behind the drum, a special form of elixir?
I think it may be different on the other side of the goat.
# Posted on August 6th 2009 by Random_notes
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
I heard the Wolf Tone debate on radio today. Talk about brotherly love. I have a friend who attended a recent Wolf Tone concert, or was it a Wolf Tone concert, anyway it was one of them and he reckoned it was an 'incitement to riot'. So nothings changed there then. Years ago I was in a band called The Symbolics and we fell out. They called themselves The Sym and told me they'd have no objection calling myself what whatever I wanted. .........I know ....I know....but there may be someone out there who hadn't heard it?
# Posted on August 6th 2009 by Free Reed
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
The Symbolics? Far out, man - that sounds kinda early Seventies? So, when's your day in the High Court coming up?!
# Posted on August 7th 2009 by the wounded hussar
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
bolics ...
# Posted on August 7th 2009 by pavlf
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
Early sixties actually, man. Didn't make the High Court, the case was laughed out of a lower court.and I went on to join Snotty and the Nosepickers..... Thank you 'paviv'...I knew you were out there. lol
# Posted on August 7th 2009 by Free Reed
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
The Wolfe Tones have divided up into 'The Real Wolfe Tones' and 'The Continuity Wolfe Tones' ...... maybe De Dannan should do the same ....
# Posted on August 9th 2009 by Frulator
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
Tony MacMahon made a haims of his point on RTÉ, but I think he was making a stand in the battle of ranking the importance of various elements of the tradition. It is true that Guinness is a part of the tradition, but it is surely not as important to it as the evolution of Irish fiddle ornamentation, or the Irish break throughs on button accordion or the development in complexity of melodies across the ages in the Irish tradition.
The same might be said about accompanyists as MacMahon was saying. Experimental bodhrán players bringing in foreign influences which can be wonderful, but which could easily overshadow and ruin the melodists work which is essentially more ancient work. But I don't want to ruin the idea that bodhrán players might not be reviving lost beats, or whatever.
I just think that Tony MacMahon made a mess of saying something that is hard to say. Picking on Alec Finn was probably way off I think, and just bad behavior, but honest opinion is interesting. Maybe he has a reason to think that about Finn, I think not.
Defending native Irish arts and the development of our unique stuff above all additions, is probably cruddy and bitter work sometimes, and a warrior for this kind of thing might go off on a tare against symbols etc. Folkly, hippie and worldy type of rock and roll stuff is numerically much more powerful than the small traditions Ireland has held onto, and so its defenders might be vehement in a more immediate and life-defending type of way. Anyway MacMahon is a mighty box player and good for the tradition. He's a crappy diplomat that's for sure, but don't we need a little bit of that. A little bit. Not too much.
# Posted on August 10th 2009 by ScratchYours
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
Good on Tony. Someone has to stand up to these post-modern leveling babys and speak the truth.
# Posted on August 11th 2009 by Tadhg mac Saoirse
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
Do you condone his discrimination of Finn for being half English and having moved from Yorkshire?
# Posted on August 11th 2009 by bogman
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
What's it to ya if I didn't? Or did for that matter? Who cares about that stuff, we're talking about music. There's other forums and day time TV for what you are on about.
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by Tadhg mac Saoirse
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
I wonder if jig is back?
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
Don't think so Dave, just some other nutter.
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by bogman
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
Can you not be a musician and an acompanist as well?
I said this on another forum but I`ll say it again. MacMahon in those statements has some sort of ax to grind. Whether it be to defend a friend or bigotry against Anglo Irish musicians I don`t know. But it stinks for sure!
# Posted on August 12th 2009 by pagra
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
Fair play to Tony, a fellow ennisman. He speaks out the truth and is passionate about preserving the true tradition. He has music from when he was young and has met all the greats unlike these opportunists who jump on the bandwagon when the music gets popular
# Posted on October 11th 2009 by ennisman
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
Oppertunists?
Go away Tony we know it's you now
Have a nice concert with Frankie in your home town.
# Posted on October 11th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
"the true tradition" - and what would that be, then ?
# Posted on October 11th 2009 by Kenny
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
"and has met all the greats" So have many Dublin Taxi drivers, but that doesn't make them, great saviours of Irish Traditional Music, ennisman.
But on a more serious note ennisman, you say "Fair play to Tony," so you are actually congratulating a man who publicly slagged off Alec as a musician & discriminated against him for not being a pure Irishman, and this, against Alec Finn, a musician who in my opinion, is one of the great, forward thinking innovators within the Irish Music scene of the past 40 years.
Shame on you!
I'm sure we are all eternally greatful to all those great & wonderful musicians of the past, who managed to carry the music on for us, through the lean years. However, I believe that, what has made Irish Traditional Music the World phenomenon that it is today, is not just that Pure Drop we all talk of, nor is it just due to all the wonderful, exciting & vibrant musical innovations that have evolved within & into the Irish Traditional Music we know and love today, but rather a combination of the two.
There are plenty of examples of countries who possess fantastic Traditional Music of their own, but in those countries, so often the luddites won through and managed to preserve, nae mothball their tradition, to the point where it became, no longer attractive to the next generation.
The luddites must realise that each generation must be allowed to embrace the tradition as their own, and that will mean they be allowed to tweak it a little at the edges, so what. This, my friends, is how the tradition is kept alive, not by sticking it in a glass case, or resigning it to a dusty book on a library shelf.
The bottom line in all of this chat is, that I know for sure that the younger generation of musicians, all show the older generation of musicians the greatest of respect & hold them and their undoubted talent in great awe. So, for this respect and trust to be thrown back in their faces, by the sort of ill thought out, cruel and frankly very nasty comments that Tony was guilty of that day, is a sad day indeed, for the tradition.
I firmly believe that Tony should publicly apologise to Alec. Please show us Tony that you are a better man, than your comments that day, made you out to be.
Cheers
Dick
# Posted on October 11th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
Ptarmigan, I'm curious, have you met Tony Mac Mahon, played with him, read his paper to the 1996 Crossroads conference, even listened to to his albums? Without doing so you're judging his remarks on a talk radio programme (that was was looking for controversy) without examining the beliefs behind the remarks. I can accept that his remarks were ill considered in that context because most of the listeners, I suspect yourself included, haven't followed him over the years and know where he's comng from. Your post reads like a daily Mail editorial, to quote Tadhg mac Saoirse in the parallel topic "There's other forums and day time TV for what you are on about."
And if you're somehow suggesting that Tony is a luddite or seeks to fossilize trad . . . to quote a well known Irish-American "You cannot be serious". Have you not seen his multi-media performance piece "The Frost Is All Over"? And through his TV and radio programmes he's done more than most to bring trad to a wider audience.
As for "cruel and frankly very nasty comments" . . . really!
Ptarmigan, digging beneath your own rhetoric there's obviously a strongly held and heart felt sentiment and view of the world. But describing Alec Finn as "a musician who in my opinion, is one of the great, forward thinking innovators within the Irish Music scene of the past 40 years." does you no credit. I know Alec, and I'm pretty sure that while he'd thank you for the compliment, he'd dismiss it for the nonsense it is and go outside for a smoke.
# Posted on October 11th 2009 by PJ Doherty
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
PJ, I don't think it matters how great a musician you may feel Tony is, I really don't believe his fame gives him any more right than anyone else, to be as rude & disrespectful to a fellow musician as he was, on live radio that day.
To answer your question though, I bought my first TM LP back in '77. However, I hope your not implying that because I haven't actually penetrated his inner circle of friends, I somehow have no right to an opinion on his behaviour, that day?
"I can accept that his remarks were ill considered in that context because most of the listeners, I suspect yourself included, haven't followed him over the years and know where he's comng from."
Yes, his remarks were either "ill considered" or they were not and I'm to see that at least we both agree, they were.
I'm curious though, in what context do you think it would be acceptable for Tony to be so rude to Alec?
Perhaps you are implying that he actually makes a habit of this sort of thing behind closed doors and therefore we shouldn't really be surprised by his rhetoric.
If so, do you reckon then that it's OK to behave like this, as long as your not on the Radio?
As for my writing style reading like "a daily Mail editorial", it may be, I have absolutely no idea, so I'll have to bow to your greater knowledge of that particular newspaper.
I just don't see what my style of writing has to do with Tony's behaviour.
As for Alec, I do think he was pretty courageous to stick to his guns, when you consider how alien his Bouzouki would have appeared to fellow Galway musicians, back in the early 70s. Especially when we remember how much more conservative the musicians were back then, compared to today.
So, in the face of all those negative vibes, I do believe he must surely have had a lot of faith in what he was doing.
# Posted on October 12th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
100% with you there Ptarmigan. Achievements don't make rude and distasteful behavior acceptable. He does the image of Irish trad no favours whatsoever. I've never seen that type of public behavior here in Scotland with regards to trad. Part of what makes the greats great here is that in my experience they are usually the perfect gentlemen/ladies.
# Posted on October 12th 2009 by bogman
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
A chance to rubberneck a car crash!
Ptarmigan, I'm not going to reply in kind. But perhaps I'm doing you an injustice, perhaps my writing is so sloppy that it doesn't accurately express my thoughts, so let me try again. Let's take your response a paragraph at a time.
Your first paragraph. Contrary to the impression I appear to have given you, I don't think Tony Mac Mahon is a "great" musician (in fact I can't find any comment on his musicianship!). At he's a very fine box player for slow airs. As for dance tunes, to my ear he's a solid player but no great shakes. Others of course, may disagree but his ability as a musician is neither here nor there in this matter, save for one thing: you only have to hear him play to get a sense of how strongly he identifies with the music.
Has anyone, anywhere on this board seriously suggested that gives him any more right than anyone else, to be <as> (sic) rude & disrespectful"? Your righteous indignation is making you leap at shadows.
The key, I suspect, is your classification of Tony's words as "rude & disrespectful". As I said previously, you clearly have a strongly held view that they were thus. I, I'm afraid, disagree. There was no invective, no abusive language (at least not to my ear). Tony was simply expressing his opinion: he just doesn't recognise accompanists as trad musicians. If you'd spent any time in his company or read his paper to the 1996 Crossroads Conference you'd know this. It's the reason he was put on air on a talk radio programme for whom controversy is entertainment.
Turning to your second paragraph. Of course knowledge of the man or otherwise doesn't entitle or bar you from commenting but it does inform those comments.
Paragraph three, of course his remarks were ill-considered, given the forum but that in it self doesn't make them "rude & disrespectful".
Paragraph four. Again I don't recall anyone anywhere on this board seriously suggesting that anyone, in civilised debate, has the right to be rude to another. More shadows on your part I'm afraid.
Paragraph five. Apologies, I thought, the "Daily Mail editorial" reference was common parlance i.e. loud moral indignation. The point being you're making a fuss about nothing.
Paragraph five. From the stories he tells of the time "courageous" is probably stretching it! Courage in the face of "negative vibes"? Yes, I can see why you thought Tony was being "rude"! Sorry Ptarmigan, that was a cheap shot. I should have kept listening to my better angels.
Quite simply we disagree as to what constitutes rudeness. Of course, you'll want to come back at me, but to what end?
# Posted on October 12th 2009 by PJ Doherty
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
"Quite simply we disagree as to what constitutes rudeness."
So you don't think that turning round to one of the most respected Irish musicians, a driving force in the development of the bouzouki in Irish music and one of the founder members of De Dannan and telling him that he is not a musician, he is only an accompanist (and a second rate one at that) and that effectively De Dannan could have been called the Frankie Gavin Band is rude then?
I would hate to experience your level of rudeness then!
# Posted on October 12th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
"one of the most respected Irish musicians, a driving force in the development of the bouzouki in Irish music". There are so many holes in those assertions that I wouldn't know where to start. And before high horses are mounted, I'm not saying Alec isn't respected or doesn't have a role in the adoption of the bouzouki by trad musicians. It's just the degrees you're asserting that are over the top.
In the context of the radio discussion, while Tony used the phrase "not a musician" he obviously meant "not a trad musician" just as my parents still call trad "the music". Alec would be first to agree he's not a trad musician, he's a musician who plays trad music. If you don't recognise that distinction that of course you're deaf to what Tony is saying. Tony's belief (held by a good number of knowledgeable people over the years including Breandán Breathnach and Tomás Ó Canainn) is that trad is essentially the art of the solo performance. It's that, that informs his choice of language. To an audience that no little about trad his words were patently ill judged.
And of course " De Dannan could have been called the Frankie Gavin Band". You, me, anyone can refer to it anyway they choose. The chosen name may reflect a value judgement but so what? It's not rudeness, it's having an opinion.
I suspect it's my definition of rudeness that you'd hate rather than the level! For Tony "you're not a trad musician" is, I suspect, a simple statement of fact, carries no judgement or moral weight, and as such is incapable of being either polite or rude. If we can agree that verbal rudeness comes down to the choice of words rather than the underlying sentiment then "You're a second rate accompanist" is an opinion expressed in perhaps carelessly chosen words to the uninitiates but without invective. "You're a fecking crap accompanist" would, of course, be rude.
# Posted on October 12th 2009 by PJ Doherty
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
No PJ, he said "not a musician" pure and simple. He also said Ringo is a first class accompanist and Alec was a second class accompanist. He also said with the clear implication that it mattered, that Alec was an Englishman who lived in a castle in Galway. It doesn't matter if you know of him or about his thoughts on traditional music, his outburst was rude, offensive and bordering on racist.
# Posted on October 12th 2009 by bogman
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
Bogman, "No PJ, he said "not a musician" pure and simple" how do you know what he thought he was saying? You may have heard "not a musician" but to an informed listener the context, and the qualifier, were clear. In my world, and I suspect Tony's, if someone tells you they're a musician during a conversation about trad I automatically assume they play trad.
If I say "you're a fecking idiot" to a complete stranger of course I'm rude; if I say it to my clumsy brother he thinks I'm being affectionate, a third party thinks I'm being rude. Context and knowledge are everything.
And as for the Englishman who lives in a castle in Galway, that was so obviously a throwaway remark to the point that Alec isn't a trad musician.
# Posted on October 12th 2009 by PJ Doherty
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
So PJ, when listening to Tony on the radio are we meant to not just hear what he said but what he actually, on reflection, meant?
From my understanding of Mr MacMahon he is not a stranger to a broadcast setting and you would hope would therefore understand how to convey his thoughts into a microphone (or via telephone as was the case here).
I listened to the show and found the whole thing quite preposterous but Tony MacMahon was the crowning cherry on the entire cake of nonsense.
Leaving aside the idea that Tony might be a self-important, egotistical and offensive racist do you agree with him when he said that Frankie Gavin was De Dannan? Do you, whether he is a "traditional musician" or not, believe that Alec Finn did little to shape the sound of the band? Do you think it is right that Frankie Gavin can, years after De Dannan went their seperate ways, start a new band and give it the name of his old band?
Do you think that I should be able to join up with a few of the guys from the session in Glasgow and call ourselves De Dannan? If we called ourselves Dee Doonan would that make it any better?
# Posted on October 12th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
PJ, a couple of days ago you said to me........
"I'm very sympathetic to the plight of musicians born outside of strong Irish communities." and ........"
Start saving for Willie week, if you love the music you'll have the time of your life."
Today you say "You may have heard "not a musician" but to an informed listener the context, and the qualifier, were clear. In my world, and I suspect Tony's"
Get a grip of yourself. You know nothing about me are most of the others on this site. Don't assume yourself to be superior in some way.
# Posted on October 12th 2009 by bogman
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
"or most"
# Posted on October 12th 2009 by bogman
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
No Cause, I know you have a tendency to be flip but let me assume your questions are serious.
"when listening to Tony on the radio are we meant to not just hear what he said but what he actually, on reflection, meant?". Isn't that the respect you show everyone you listen to, particularly in the pressured and artificial environment of talk radio? In the context of a discussion about trad Tony used the term "musician" the way any trad musician would understand it. His mistake, and I agree perhaps surprising given his background, though he's always been poor in front of a mike, was not to allow for an audience that doesn't share his usage.
" do you agree with him when he said that Frankie Gavin was De Dannan?" Absolutely not.
"Do you, whether he is a "traditional musician" or not, believe that Alec Finn did little to shape the sound of the band?" Absolutely not.
"Do you think it is right that Frankie Gavin can, years after De Dannan went their seperate ways, start a new band and give it the name of his old band?" Absolutely not.
That Tony Mac Mahon would give you different answers to those questions doesn't make him "self-important, egotistical and offensive racist". Narrow-minded perhaps, begrudger even, wasn't he called a "Mullah of tradition" on the Late Late Show? I may not agree with everything the man says but I defend his right to say it without unwarranted accusations of rudeness and racism
As for "Do you think that I should be able to join up with a few of the guys from the session in Glasgow and call ourselves De Dannan? If we called ourselves Dee Doonan would that make it any better?" Among other things I'm an Intellectual Property lawyer so if you really want my advice we'll have to agree a fee first! But as a musician, "no" to the first, and "yes of course it would but it all depends on context" to the second.
# Posted on October 12th 2009 by PJ Doherty
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
"That Tony Mac Mahon would give you different answers to those questions doesn't make him "self-important, egotistical and offensive racist". Narrow-minded perhaps, begrudger even, wasn't he called a "Mullah of tradition" on the Late Late Show? I may not agree with everything the man says but I defend his right to say it without unwarranted accusations of rudeness and racism."
Oh, I'm sorry PJ. I was expressing my opinion, as is my right. You will note I said that Tony MIGHT be a self-important, egotistical and offensive racist. He also might not. You never know. I hope you or Tony didn't take offense at my opinion or think me rude.
# Posted on October 12th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
I am delighted however that my "tendancy to be flip" does not go unnoticed.
# Posted on October 12th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
As a musician then, and not in your professional legal capacity then (I don't want a bill in the post), do you think we should be able to call ourselves the Provisional De Dannan?
# Posted on October 12th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
I always refer people to discussions like this when they enthuse over those sweet old guys playing trad in the pub. It's a jungle in there!
# Posted on October 12th 2009 by Bren
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
Bogman, if I, in anyway, inadvertently represented myself as in anyway "superior" (!) to you or anyone else, or that I possessed knowledge of you or anyone else on this site then I apologise unreservedly.
# Posted on October 12th 2009 by PJ Doherty
Re: Debate on De Danann rages on RTE!
Dearie me, both the intentional and affective fallacies seem to be thriving here!
# Posted on October 12th 2009 by Floss the Tethers