I was having a discussion about tempi recently, and the other person quoted a certain number of bpm as being ideal to dancea certain dance to (I forget how many or which dance, but that's by the by.)
Anyway.
It struck me that bpm isn't an awfully accurate way of measuring speed, as the speed depends on whether you play the tune with 1, 2, or 4 beats to the bar. In classical music the metronome mark is given along with an indication of how many beats to the bar, but in trad, is it assumed that pieces are in say 4 when a number of bpm is given?
Sorry if I haven't explained it clearly, it's something I find very confusing...
When you give a beats-per-minute value, you really need to specify the length of the beat. On sheet music, metronome marks are usually shown as (note symbol) = 115 etc, so we know whether it is 115 crotchets/minute, 115 minims/minute etc. But when talking about music that is not normally written down, people often leave out this vital bit of information, assuming incorrectly that others will know what they mean, leading to ambiguity. So, for example, some might say that a typical speed for a reel would be 115 bpm, whilst others might say it is 230 bpm. If one beat is taken to be a minim, 115 bpm would be quite a reasonable speed. If it is taken to be a crotchet, on the other hand, it would be painfully slow. Similarly, 230 minims/minute would be absurdly fast .
if you're playing for dancers, why not just ask them if the speed is right? Play a bit of the tune before they start dancing, to check if it's too fast or slow.
Thanks for the clarification there- I'm personally a graduate of the Marklar school of musical speed measurement, but I wanted to have a better idea of what others are talking about when they throw bpm numbers around.
If you ever play with non trad musicians they will understand it as beats per minute (bpm), so a reel to them is usually 117 ish for Irish or slightly faster for Scottish - if played for dancers. Personally my own opinion is that speed at sessions is in the moment, sometimes someone starts too fast or slow but people show go with it and try to get into the speed. Maybe someone else plays the tune in a different way and a different speed is best. Trying to manipulate speed to suite your own playing is an irritating session sin - worst when committed by percussionists.
Slightly off topic but so relevant when "speed" issues are debated is a thread submitted by SWFL Fiddler a couple of years ago at http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/13155/comments#comment271457. I'd recommend this discussion very strongly to all new trad players or anyone requiring guidance on the preferred tempos.
The original discussion was introduced by New York musician Wayne Webster (a regular at the All-Ireland fleadhs back in the late 1990's) some years earlier and is still as relevant today judging by the number of "boy racers" who continue to turn up at sessions. By the way does anyone know where Wayne is these days and if he's still playing trad?
Competition feis dancers perform all of their soft shoe dances (reels, light jigs, slip jigs) at 113 bpm. Hard shoe dance competitions are performed at various speeds depending on various criteria, but in general, the more advanced level at which the dancer competes, the slower the tempi, so as to allow for more "foot-work". The musicians are now required to use a metronome when performing for these competitors. Ironically, it can be much more challenging to play at slow tempi and still have the music make sense - ever try to play "The Downfall of Paris" at 70 bpm? Especially when the dancer is clattering and pounding away with hard shoes on a semi-hollow wooden stage?
I don't know if these are the ideal tempi for dancers, I just play what the adjudicators and dancers tell me to play.
Bannerman-
I just met Wayne for the first time at Lark In the Morning in Mendocino last week. He lives in San Diego and is still playing Irish trad. He seems to have a great love for the music, which I regard highly.
Bpm and Speed..A soft drink handed out free to the G.A.A and a recreational drugs that makes you talk really fast and have good ideas!.. add whiskey and a few e's and Im in. REEEEEELS
Bpm and speed
Bpm and speed
I was having a discussion about tempi recently, and the other person quoted a certain number of bpm as being ideal to dancea certain dance to (I forget how many or which dance, but that's by the by.)
Anyway.
It struck me that bpm isn't an awfully accurate way of measuring speed, as the speed depends on whether you play the tune with 1, 2, or 4 beats to the bar. In classical music the metronome mark is given along with an indication of how many beats to the bar, but in trad, is it assumed that pieces are in say 4 when a number of bpm is given?
Sorry if I haven't explained it clearly, it's something I find very confusing...
Ewan
# Posted on August 2nd 2009 by tollcrossterrapin
Re: Bpm and speed
When you give a beats-per-minute value, you really need to specify the length of the beat. On sheet music, metronome marks are usually shown as (note symbol) = 115 etc, so we know whether it is 115 crotchets/minute, 115 minims/minute etc. But when talking about music that is not normally written down, people often leave out this vital bit of information, assuming incorrectly that others will know what they mean, leading to ambiguity. So, for example, some might say that a typical speed for a reel would be 115 bpm, whilst others might say it is 230 bpm. If one beat is taken to be a minim, 115 bpm would be quite a reasonable speed. If it is taken to be a crotchet, on the other hand, it would be painfully slow. Similarly, 230 minims/minute would be absurdly fast .
# Posted on August 2nd 2009 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: Bpm and speed
N.B.
quaver = eighth note
crotchet = quarter note
minim = half note
semibreve = whole note
# Posted on August 2nd 2009 by OrganicPeatCreature
Re: Bpm and speed
Whenever someone asks me about tempo, I usually just tap my foot and say "about like that."
# Posted on August 2nd 2009 by Marklar
Re: Bpm and speed
if you're playing for dancers, why not just ask them if the speed is right? Play a bit of the tune before they start dancing, to check if it's too fast or slow.
# Posted on August 2nd 2009 by cathycook
Re: Bpm and speed
Thanks for the clarification there- I'm personally a graduate of the Marklar school of musical speed measurement, but I wanted to have a better idea of what others are talking about when they throw bpm numbers around.
Thanks again!
# Posted on August 2nd 2009 by tollcrossterrapin
Re: Bpm and speed
If you ever play with non trad musicians they will understand it as beats per minute (bpm), so a reel to them is usually 117 ish for Irish or slightly faster for Scottish - if played for dancers. Personally my own opinion is that speed at sessions is in the moment, sometimes someone starts too fast or slow but people show go with it and try to get into the speed. Maybe someone else plays the tune in a different way and a different speed is best. Trying to manipulate speed to suite your own playing is an irritating session sin - worst when committed by percussionists.
# Posted on August 3rd 2009 by bogman
Re: Bpm and speed
Slightly off topic but so relevant when "speed" issues are debated is a thread submitted by SWFL Fiddler a couple of years ago at http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/13155/comments#comment271457. I'd recommend this discussion very strongly to all new trad players or anyone requiring guidance on the preferred tempos.
The original discussion was introduced by New York musician Wayne Webster (a regular at the All-Ireland fleadhs back in the late 1990's) some years earlier and is still as relevant today judging by the number of "boy racers" who continue to turn up at sessions. By the way does anyone know where Wayne is these days and if he's still playing trad?
# Posted on August 3rd 2009 by Bannerman
Re: Bpm and speed
What about a hemi demi semi quaver?
# Posted on August 4th 2009 by dogmageek
Re: Bpm and speed
A dot with a stick and four tails.
# Posted on August 4th 2009 by Bredna
Re: Bpm and speed
Competition feis dancers perform all of their soft shoe dances (reels, light jigs, slip jigs) at 113 bpm. Hard shoe dance competitions are performed at various speeds depending on various criteria, but in general, the more advanced level at which the dancer competes, the slower the tempi, so as to allow for more "foot-work". The musicians are now required to use a metronome when performing for these competitors. Ironically, it can be much more challenging to play at slow tempi and still have the music make sense - ever try to play "The Downfall of Paris" at 70 bpm? Especially when the dancer is clattering and pounding away with hard shoes on a semi-hollow wooden stage?
I don't know if these are the ideal tempi for dancers, I just play what the adjudicators and dancers tell me to play.
# Posted on August 4th 2009 by pbassnote
Re: Bpm and speed
Bannerman-
I just met Wayne for the first time at Lark In the Morning in Mendocino last week. He lives in San Diego and is still playing Irish trad. He seems to have a great love for the music, which I regard highly.
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by Jreidy
Re: Bpm and speed
Bpm and Speed..A soft drink handed out free to the G.A.A and a recreational drugs that makes you talk really fast and have good ideas!.. add whiskey and a few e's and Im in. REEEEEELS
# Posted on August 14th 2009 by Trucks_Mulligan