If that's the thing in your life that you would consider extreme in the irritation department, consider yourself lucky
At the same time, should we stop calling violins "fiddles"? Should we stop calling accordions "boxes"? Should we stop calling Irish Traditional Music "ITM" or "trad"? Should we stop calling guitars "axes"? Should we stop calling our abilities "chops"?
Each of those questions will have different answers from different people. But I think we should stop being annoyed by stuff like that, and concentrate on the important things in life. Like whether our own playing is up to the standards that we aspire to, or which Irish whiskey is the best...
and if I said I played a viol or a viola instead of a violin it could lead to all sorts of trouble.
Luckily, I play the fiddle.
I know fiddle in Irish/Gaelic is fidil. But which came first - the chicken or the egg - in other words: is fiddle loaned to English from Gaelic or is fidil loaned to Gaelic from English?
richrua asked:
"But which came first - the chicken or the egg - in other words: is fiddle loaned to English from Gaelic or is fidil loaned to Gaelic from English?"
From the OED etymology:
(START OED)
ME. fiþele, OE. *fiðele wk. fem. (implied in deriv. fiðelere) = MDu. vedel(e (Du. vedel, veel), OHG. fidula (MHG. videle, Ger. fiedel), ON. fiþla (Da. fiddel).
The ultimate origin is obscure. The Teut. word bears a singular resemblance in sound to its med.L. synonym vitula, vidula, whence OF. viole, Pr. viula, and (by adoption from these langs.) It., Sp., Pg. viola: see viol. The supposition that the early Rom. vidula was adopted independently in more than one Teut. lang. would account adequately for all the Teut. forms; on the other hand, *fiþulôn- may be an OTeut. word of native etymology, though no satisfactory Teut. derivation has been found.
(END OED)
In other words, it's like "craic".
Okay, from now on, they're bouzoukis. And the little ones, the ones they use in bluegrass, they're bouzucchinis.
And the ones played by they guy with the red nose and the funny hair, those are bozokis.
you should definitely stop calling your guitar an axe (if you do). Unless you actually think them floppy leather semi-cowboy hats are cool and a bit of re-enactment is just the job on a saturday night. Zouk? I'll say no more ....
or bouzouqua for that matter (which is the correct plural for the irish as opposed to the greek bouzouki).
according to my textbooks, the greek word bouzouki, which only dates back to the 1950s is derived from the Turkish "bozuk" meaning "badly made".
i dont think its a fair name at all for such a splendid instrument
if anyone speaks turkish could you give us a new name based on a more accurate descriptive phrase
for example
jangly
beautiful
slips off my leg but i still want one.
it makes me feel like a pixie playing a uke.
----
you cant stop language evolving, if you read a book on etymology it will help you get over your irritations.
Zouk is handy for typing, I never use it in speach but will probably continue to use it when typing.
Rev "chops" makes me cringe. It puts the emphasis on technical issues and always carries the connotations for me of how flashy can you be, which misses the point in this form of music.
Note this these are the connotations that "chops" carries for me YCMV (he said coining a new internetism that may yet take off).
>Do you call the guitar a "tar" or a mandolin a "lin"???
Denis "mando" is very common, and "jo" for banjo not unheard of, although the latter sounds a little affected to me as it isn't in common currency round here (sure it is in some palces though).
We tend to call a big mandolin tunes an octave low but not big enough to be considered a (bou)zouk(i) a mandola. "Octave mandolin" is too clumsy for casual spoken use, and the equally clumsy "octave mandola" doesn't make any sense to me. In the rare occasions when somone plays the viola equivalent I'd probably call it a tenor mandola.
there are certain newsgroups i'm sure you are aware of where people can get really upset that everyone esle won't use their favourite catch all term, be it "cittern" or "'(Irish )'bouzouki" or "mandola" etc.
LOL. Thanks ramblingpitchfork, you made my day.
OK Dennis Reagan; but only if you stop using three question marks.
Incidentally, this thread seems to indicate a connection between music and language in the brain.
"At the same time, should we stop calling violins "fiddles"? Should we stop calling accordions "boxes"? Should we stop calling Irish Traditional Music "ITM" or "trad"? Should we stop calling guitars "axes"? Should we stop calling our abilities "chops"? "
Nope - just stop calling a Bouzouki a "Zouk", please
' Don't mean to bust your conk, but many slang terms have come and gone. Most people don't realize that the original term for "Jazz" actually meant sexual intercourse.
Please stop....
Please stop....
....calling the Bouzouki a "Zouk".
It is extremely irritating. Do you call the guitar a "tar" or a mandolin a "lin"???
# Posted on July 31st 2009 by Dennis Regan
Re: Please stop....
No we don't, Den.
# Posted on July 31st 2009 by awildman
Re: Please stop....
Well, since you asked nicely...
# Posted on July 31st 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Please stop....
It could be worse. I once saw Ringo McDonagh introduce Gerald Trimble as the "cistern" player.
# Posted on July 31st 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Please stop....
Only if you say "please"... Oh wait, you did...
If that's the thing in your life that you would consider extreme in the irritation department, consider yourself lucky
At the same time, should we stop calling violins "fiddles"? Should we stop calling accordions "boxes"? Should we stop calling Irish Traditional Music "ITM" or "trad"? Should we stop calling guitars "axes"? Should we stop calling our abilities "chops"?
Each of those questions will have different answers from different people. But I think we should stop being annoyed by stuff like that, and concentrate on the important things in life. Like whether our own playing is up to the standards that we aspire to, or which Irish whiskey is the best...
# Posted on July 31st 2009 by Reverend
Re: Please stop....
how about we call them 'ouki' as in Newquay? or Bouz as in booze? the second one appeals more ?
# Posted on July 31st 2009 by mickyfong
Re: Please stop....
Yes, we should stop calling Irish Traditional Music "ITM". (you did ask...)
# Posted on July 31st 2009 by kennedy
Re: Please stop....
Does this mean we can't refer to citterns, bouzoukis and octave mandolins collectively as CBOMs? Also, whatever will be done about 'Zoukfest'
# Posted on July 31st 2009 by eisdear
Re: Please stop....
and if I said I played a viol or a viola instead of a violin it could lead to all sorts of trouble.
Luckily, I play the fiddle.
I know fiddle in Irish/Gaelic is fidil. But which came first - the chicken or the egg - in other words: is fiddle loaned to English from Gaelic or is fidil loaned to Gaelic from English?
# Posted on July 31st 2009 by richrua
Re: Please stop....
I know of two technical terms for the viola,richrua, and they are these:
groan- box and doom-box.
I tend to go for the latter.
Btw,Dennis,I trust you still refer to the pianoforte and the violincello.
Although I believe 'cello' has now been officially recognised.
# Posted on July 31st 2009 by biggus dave
Re: Please stop....
Please stop calling me a midget. We prefer the term 'Small Magic'.
# Posted on July 31st 2009 by Farr
Re: Please stop....
Actuallly... I call my guitar a 'guit' and my mandolin a 'mando'.... so........
# Posted on July 31st 2009 by camwebby
Re: Please stop....
The larger stringed things are "jangle-boxes".
I heard that term in the Seventies.
That makes it traditional.
# Posted on July 31st 2009 by nicholas
Re: Please stop....
richrua asked:
"But which came first - the chicken or the egg - in other words: is fiddle loaned to English from Gaelic or is fidil loaned to Gaelic from English?"
From the OED etymology:
(START OED)
ME. fiþele, OE. *fiðele wk. fem. (implied in deriv. fiðelere) = MDu. vedel(e (Du. vedel, veel), OHG. fidula (MHG. videle, Ger. fiedel), ON. fiþla (Da. fiddel).
The ultimate origin is obscure. The Teut. word bears a singular resemblance in sound to its med.L. synonym vitula, vidula, whence OF. viole, Pr. viula, and (by adoption from these langs.) It., Sp., Pg. viola: see viol. The supposition that the early Rom. vidula was adopted independently in more than one Teut. lang. would account adequately for all the Teut. forms; on the other hand, *fiþulôn- may be an OTeut. word of native etymology, though no satisfactory Teut. derivation has been found.
(END OED)
In other words, it's like "craic".
# Posted on August 1st 2009 by Lingpupa
Re: Please stop....
Okay, from now on, they're bouzoukis. And the little ones, the ones they use in bluegrass, they're bouzucchinis.
And the ones played by they guy with the red nose and the funny hair, those are bozokis.
# Posted on August 1st 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Please stop....
you should definitely stop calling your guitar an axe (if you do). Unless you actually think them floppy leather semi-cowboy hats are cool and a bit of re-enactment is just the job on a saturday night. Zouk? I'll say no more ....
# Posted on August 1st 2009 by pavlf
Dont call them bouzoukis either
or bouzouqua for that matter (which is the correct plural for the irish as opposed to the greek bouzouki).
according to my textbooks, the greek word bouzouki, which only dates back to the 1950s is derived from the Turkish "bozuk" meaning "badly made".
i dont think its a fair name at all for such a splendid instrument
if anyone speaks turkish could you give us a new name based on a more accurate descriptive phrase
for example
jangly
beautiful
slips off my leg but i still want one.
it makes me feel like a pixie playing a uke.
----
you cant stop language evolving, if you read a book on etymology it will help you get over your irritations.
i'm off for a dip in the kajoosi
# Posted on August 1st 2009 by rumpole
Re: Please stop....
The chicken came first, obviously. What, is the egg going to sit on itself?
# Posted on August 1st 2009 by awildman
Re: Please stop....
Zouk is handy for typing, I never use it in speach but will probably continue to use it when typing.
Rev "chops" makes me cringe. It puts the emphasis on technical issues and always carries the connotations for me of how flashy can you be, which misses the point in this form of music.
Note this these are the connotations that "chops" carries for me YCMV (he said coining a new internetism that may yet take off
).
Rumpole: "slips off my leg but i still want one"
Do try to stay on topic
- Chris
# Posted on August 1st 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Please stop....
>Do you call the guitar a "tar" or a mandolin a "lin"???
Denis "mando" is very common, and "jo" for banjo not unheard of, although the latter sounds a little affected to me as it isn't in common currency round here (sure it is in some palces though).
We tend to call a big mandolin tunes an octave low but not big enough to be considered a (bou)zouk(i) a mandola. "Octave mandolin" is too clumsy for casual spoken use, and the equally clumsy "octave mandola" doesn't make any sense to me. In the rare occasions when somone plays the viola equivalent I'd probably call it a tenor mandola.
there are certain newsgroups i'm sure you are aware of where people can get really upset that everyone esle won't use their favourite catch all term, be it "cittern" or "'(Irish )'bouzouki" or "mandola" etc.
Cheers - chris
# Posted on August 1st 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Please stop....
LOL. Thanks ramblingpitchfork, you made my day.
OK Dennis Reagan; but only if you stop using three question marks.
Incidentally, this thread seems to indicate a connection between music and language in the brain.
# Posted on August 1st 2009 by gam
Re: Please stop....
woops. Sorry Mr Regan for the superfluous "a".
# Posted on August 1st 2009 by gam
Re: Please stop....
since I started out being classically trained and became a fiddler, I play a violiddler
# Posted on August 1st 2009 by Barry1963
Re: Please stop....
"At the same time, should we stop calling violins "fiddles"? Should we stop calling accordions "boxes"? Should we stop calling Irish Traditional Music "ITM" or "trad"? Should we stop calling guitars "axes"? Should we stop calling our abilities "chops"? "
Nope - just stop calling a Bouzouki a "Zouk", please
# Posted on August 1st 2009 by Dennis Regan
Re: Please stop....
In same vein, must admit that I find 'tina' for concertina, mildly annoying. Reminds me of a Cortina or something like that.
Have to laugh re 'Fidil' though. I reckon that's in same category as 'Fliúit' - a makeyuppy to satisfy the powers that be.
# Posted on August 1st 2009 by the wounded hussar
Re: Please stop....
"Should we stop calling guitars "axes"? Should we stop calling our abilities "chops"? "
Yes.
# Posted on August 1st 2009 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: Please stop....
I call my harmonica a gob-iron. Much preferable to "mouth-organ" - eeuuchh!
# Posted on August 1st 2009 by RichardB
Re: Please stop....
>bouzucchinis
And the egg came first. Chickens evolved from earlier egg laying critters.
- Chris
# Posted on August 1st 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Please stop....
A chicken is an egg's way of becoming another egg
# Posted on August 1st 2009 by Mark Harmer
Re: Please stop....
I play a series of tubes.
# Posted on August 1st 2009 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Please stop....
I must admit I find the use of Zouk & the use of Tina for a Concertina just a little bit TWEE!
... but then again, even the word Twee sounds a bit Twee ..... don't you think?
# Posted on August 1st 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Please stop....
"Is it very long?" Alice asked, for she had heard a good deal of poetry that day.
"It's long," said the Knight, "but it's very, very beautiful. Everybody that hears me sing it--either it brings the tears into their eyes, or else--"
"Or else what?" said Alice, for the Knight had made a sudden pause.
"Or else it doesn't, you know. The name of the song is called 'Haddock's Eyes'."
"Oh, that's the name of the song, is it?" Alice said, trying to feel interested.
"No, you don't understand," the Knight said, looking a little vexed. "That's what the name is called. The name really is 'The Aged Aged Man'."
"Then I ought to have said 'That's what the song is called?'" Alice corrected herself.
"No, you oughtn't: that's quite another thing! The song is called 'Ways and Means': but that's only what it's called, you know!"
"Well, what is the song, then?" said Alice, who was by this time completely bewildered.
"I was coming to that," the Knight said. "The song really is 'A-sitting on a Gate': and the tune's my own invention."
# Posted on August 1st 2009 by Sean Lead Liath
Re: Please stop....
Thanks for clearing that up, Sean. We'll know where to come next time there's a problem
- Chris
# Posted on August 1st 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Please stop....
FWIW, I wasn't advocating the use of the terms "axe" and "chops"... Both of those make me cringe too... But I don't care enough to whine about it
# Posted on August 1st 2009 by Reverend
Re: Please stop....
' Don't mean to bust your conk, but many slang terms have come and gone. Most people don't realize that the original term for "Jazz" actually meant sexual intercourse.
http://nfo.net/usa/slang.html
Now I understand why Steeley Dan hardly performed much in front of a crowd. (smirk)
# Posted on August 1st 2009 by Lint - upon - Tweed
Re: Please stop....
...and besides "What came first; the chicken or the egg?
the rooster did!
# Posted on August 1st 2009 by Lint - upon - Tweed
Re: Please stop....
Or even Steely Dan!
# Posted on August 1st 2009 by Floss the Tethers
Re: Please stop....
Is this like calling the Uilleann Pipes just "Uilleanns"?
# Posted on August 1st 2009 by elbowmusic
Re: Please stop....
my sides are hurting!!! hahaha
# Posted on August 2nd 2009 by baylady
Re: Please stop....
ok, from now on it's a 'tweena' in my book -- but i ain't changin my name.
# Posted on August 2nd 2009 by 'tinamatt
Re: Please stop....
Fiddle - 12C. instrument a bit like a Baroque violin but had a 5th string that was plucked.!!
# Posted on August 3rd 2009 by Peter O'Connor