The Session >> Discussions >> Anyone care to talk about drones and chords in the GDAD tuning for Zouks?
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Anyone care to talk about drones and chords in the GDAD tuning for Zouks?
Anyone care to talk about drones and chords in the GDAD tuning for Zouks?
The other day there was a thread about Irish Bouzouki tuning. I have an ocatve mandolin, and I tuned the thing like a fiddle since that's how they do a regular mandolin
then I was reading about the idea of the GDAD tuning being better for backing since you had natural drones with the top D
Fair enough, I thought I'd try it out and I kinda like it. It was like when I tried the DADGAD guitar tuning. It was just easier to sound right playing this music
so my trouble is I never actually heard anybody use a Zouk or ocatave mandolin in this way, so I'm just doing what sounds like something that I would want to hear if I was playing fiddle, but does anybody know of any players to listen to, or have any wisdom to share regarding chords and drones in the GDAD zouk tuning?
Re: Anyone care to talk about drones and chords in the GDAD tuning for Zouks?
Ask a hundred bouzouki players this question and you'll get a hundred different answers, but here's my two penneth:
I believe the best backing for ITM is the simplest, least obtrusive that gives utter precedence to the tune. The tune is the key and will dictate how you accompany it. You can play lots of partial chords in GDAD that work very well with the droning D. Look at inversions first and relative minors second (someone else posted this advice somewhere here recently I think). Be sparing and sensitive and learn the tunes. Remember it's not a guitar (but listen too to good guitar players like Denis Cahill and Arty McGlynn - play with good guitarists and see how the instruments differ) and it comes into it's own in smaller settings in my opinion.
Zan McLeod's DVD is a good place to start.
I personally like the crosspicking style of Alec Finn; I'm not sure there is better accompaniment anywhere (hold on, what about Irvine and Lunny . . . or Eoin O'Neill . . . or Cyril O'Donoghue etc etc).
But styles are subjective and there is no right or wrong so listen to as many as you can. Here are some suggestions:
Frankie Gavin and Alec Finn
anything by De Dannan (Alec Finn again)
Mary Bergin's Albums (er, more Alec Finn)
Danu (Eamon Doorley, also with Julie Fowlis and Dual)
Anything by Cran
Mary Custy and Eoin O'Neill
Tola Custy and Cyril O'Donoghue
Anything by Planxty . . .
. . . and The Bothy Band.
Martin Tourish and Luke Ward
Roger Landes (not strictly ITM but excellent bouzouki playing)
Anything with Donal Lunny or Andy Irvine in it.
Re: Anyone care to talk about drones and chords in the GDAD tuning for Zouks?
GDAD is the way to go for the bouzouki I think....Gets a nice open sound and is great for counter stuff. If its good enough for some of the names listed above its good enough for anyone!
I use DGDAD on my Cittern and there is a right "drone" out of it!
Re: Anyone care to talk about drones and chords in the GDAD tuning for Zouks?
I watched a few videos of Reuben Barada with Barry Kerr on youtube playing bouzouki because I bought a second hand one a few weeks ago and was impressed by how he gets a bit away from overdrone...I'm surprised there aren't more tuition dvds for bouzouki...I think the Tim O Brien one is more for mandola. both are good but I'd like to see one by Andy Irvine...all those counter melodies...sigh...GDAE being an upside down version of EADG gives me vertigo sometimes...hence my love of DADGAD
Re: Anyone care to talk about drones and chords in the GDAD tuning for Zouks?
I'll second the "simple, least obtrusive" advice. I'll also offer that MOST of the chords I play when I'm accompanying are partial chords, meaning they are generally of the root/fifth variety, with no 3rd. The sound tends to be less obtrusive, IMO, and allows the melody more space. We accompanists have to remember that most of these tunes were meant originally to be played solo. When we add harmonic structure to them, we run the risk of obscuring some interesting melodic ideas that don't necessarily fit with "modern" harmonic normalcy. I have to admit that I have been guilty of this myself, especially when I am not sufficiently familiar with a tune.
Re: Anyone care to talk about drones and chords in the GDAD tuning for Zouks?
I think there's a great advantage in the simplicity of the chord shapes in GDAD tuning. And I agree that's its probably far-and-away the most commonly-used tuning by established bouzouki accompanists in trad. Although It is still possible to do diad-type chords (no third "drone" chords) in GDAE.
My all-time favourite bouzouki album is Matt Molloy's first solo album; it's just him on flute and Donal Lunny on bouzouki (and a couple tracks on guitar). I prefer Lunny's more rhythmic approach to Alec Finn's rollicking counter-thing, but that's just a matter of taste (and anyway Lunny is an established master of counter-point from his Planxty days). Donal Clancy is also a fine bouzouki player--here he is with Mike Rafferty: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8Nw4Mr8bzA
This is a good site for reference if you're not aware of it: http://www.xs4all.nl/~hspeek/bouzouki/ Han has printable chord charts in Adobe and a few tips on playing.
Also check out the indispensable Mel Bay's Celtic Back-Up by Chris Smith; it can be a bit theory-intensive but I'm not sure that's a bad thing--skip over stuff if you find it too difficult. Also a great list of recommended listening at the back of the book.
The most important things for accompanists in my opinion is 1. learn to flatpick the tune on your instrument (or be able to play the melody on another instrument) and 2. and listen to loads of established players; the above list is pretty good.
Also, don't feel like you have to thwak at all four courses at once. Eoin O'Neil for example seldom uses all eight strings.
A video of Molloy and Lunny (possibly at the Embankment). The Bucks is the last tune on their album I mentioned. James Galway looks on with his dots next to him!
Re: Anyone care to talk about drones and chords in the GDAD tuning for Zouks?
Just in passing - it's ridiculous for people to insult James
Galway. He'd be the first to admit he's not a folk musician, and
Matt Malloy would be the first to admit he would be hopelessly
lost trying to play in the Berlin Philharmonic. It's like comparing
apples and oranges, or cricket and basketball.
Re: Anyone care to talk about drones and chords in the GDAD tuning for Zouks?
thanks everybody. Thanks Sean for the links and the YouTubes, that was good stuff. And thanks Jack and Nocause for the players. I need to check out Alec Finn. I've heard some of Zan McLeod with James Kelly, but he's on guitar on the record I have
Some of the things that I've stumbled on so far...the octave mandolin is in the same register as the guitar, so all the right hand damping and rhythm strumming techniques from guitar sounds equally good on the octave mandolin
The double stops with 10th, which skip a string in the middle are the ones I have to think about. My first instrument, or native tongue, was the guitar tuned in 4ths. The shapes of the intervals for double stops are upside down on banjo and mandolin. But when the top note lands on the high D string, its not the same and I have to remember to add two frets.
double stops on the lower 3 course sound great against a droning high D
playing the high D as a drone and then walking a bass line sounds pretty good, but its more like a "tenor line" as far as the register
since I also play some fiddle, I have to remember to use the low G course in my chords when its appropriate. I rarely go for the open low G, but if the tune is actually in G, I need to remember that I have that note down there
So I printed out the chord charts and went to Mix's site and got some chord charts to some of the tunes I know, and now I have the weekend to play around with this stuff
thanks guys for all the help
its sort of funny how I've run across little things here on the mustard board, gone and tried them out, and come back with a completely new way of thinking about things.
here I was tuning my octave mandolin in GADE and playing the melody like an idiot. All I had to do was tune down one course of strings and a whole new world opened up
I remember what my old teacher used to say "Music is hard and tricky"
Re: Anyone care to talk about drones and chords in the GDAD tuning for Zouks?
I play backup on my OM using GDAD tuning. One accessory I have found extremely useful and highly recommend for rapid key changes during sets is the "Quick Draw" capo: http://www.quickdrawcapo.com/
Re: Anyone care to talk about drones and chords in the GDAD tuning for Zouks?
Nate if you send me your e-mail address I will send you a neat little computer app that will generate chords to your hearts content for any stringed instrument (ie any number of strings) tuned to any way your twisted mid can come up with!
GDAD is cool btw.
Re: Anyone care to talk about drones and chords in the GDAD tuning for Zouks?
"... a neat little app that will generate chords to your hearts content for any stringed instrument", you say UKCITTERN?"
What software might that be, then?
I've looked at several chord auto-generating applications, and none of them worked properly. Therefore you needed to carry out some major editing of the output before being able to use it. Also, a common failing of such software is the total failure to recognise (and therefore to correctly chord) tunes in modal keys.
Re: Anyone care to talk about drones and chords in the GDAD tuning for Zouks?
Sorry Mix O'Lydian I've been away for a bit in the hills and not in contact.
The application is called FRET
You just tell it how many strings you have
How they are tuned
and how many frets you want to "stretch" the fingers (otherwise it auto generates correct chords that are almost impossible to actually play) and it then generates an extremly neat set of chord
diagrams you can print.
Very simple and as far as I have found infallible.
drop me an email at bevlawton@aol.com and I wil send it to you.
Anyone care to talk about drones and chords in the GDAD tuning for Zouks?
Anyone care to talk about drones and chords in the GDAD tuning for Zouks?
The other day there was a thread about Irish Bouzouki tuning. I have an ocatve mandolin, and I tuned the thing like a fiddle since that's how they do a regular mandolin
then I was reading about the idea of the GDAD tuning being better for backing since you had natural drones with the top D
Fair enough, I thought I'd try it out and I kinda like it. It was like when I tried the DADGAD guitar tuning. It was just easier to sound right playing this music
so my trouble is I never actually heard anybody use a Zouk or ocatave mandolin in this way, so I'm just doing what sounds like something that I would want to hear if I was playing fiddle, but does anybody know of any players to listen to, or have any wisdom to share regarding chords and drones in the GDAD zouk tuning?
# Posted on July 30th 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: Anyone care to talk about drones and chords in the GDAD tuning for Zouks?
Now you've gone and upset dafydd by calling it a zouk.
# Posted on July 30th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Anyone care to talk about drones and chords in the GDAD tuning for Zouks?
Ask a hundred bouzouki players this question and you'll get a hundred different answers, but here's my two penneth:
I believe the best backing for ITM is the simplest, least obtrusive that gives utter precedence to the tune. The tune is the key and will dictate how you accompany it. You can play lots of partial chords in GDAD that work very well with the droning D. Look at inversions first and relative minors second (someone else posted this advice somewhere here recently I think). Be sparing and sensitive and learn the tunes. Remember it's not a guitar (but listen too to good guitar players like Denis Cahill and Arty McGlynn - play with good guitarists and see how the instruments differ) and it comes into it's own in smaller settings in my opinion.
Zan McLeod's DVD is a good place to start.
I personally like the crosspicking style of Alec Finn; I'm not sure there is better accompaniment anywhere (hold on, what about Irvine and Lunny . . . or Eoin O'Neill . . . or Cyril O'Donoghue etc etc).
But styles are subjective and there is no right or wrong so listen to as many as you can. Here are some suggestions:
Frankie Gavin and Alec Finn
anything by De Dannan (Alec Finn again)
Mary Bergin's Albums (er, more Alec Finn)
Danu (Eamon Doorley, also with Julie Fowlis and Dual)
Anything by Cran
Mary Custy and Eoin O'Neill
Tola Custy and Cyril O'Donoghue
Anything by Planxty . . .
. . . and The Bothy Band.
Martin Tourish and Luke Ward
Roger Landes (not strictly ITM but excellent bouzouki playing)
Anything with Donal Lunny or Andy Irvine in it.
It's a wonderful journey - enjoy!
# Posted on July 30th 2009 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: Anyone care to talk about drones and chords in the GDAD tuning for Zouks?
Here is a brief list of folk who play in GDAD:
Donal Lunny
Manus Lunny
Andy Irvine
Eamon Doorley
Zan McLeod
Donal Clancy (?)
I would go as far as to say it is probably comfortably the most popular tuning for Irish music.
Alec Finn plays a 3 course bouzouki which I think is tuned DAD. Tim O'Brien plays in GDAE.
# Posted on July 30th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Anyone care to talk about drones and chords in the GDAD tuning for Zouks?
GDAD is the way to go for the bouzouki I think....Gets a nice open sound and is great for counter stuff. If its good enough for some of the names listed above its good enough for anyone!
I use DGDAD on my Cittern and there is a right "drone" out of it!
# Posted on July 30th 2009 by seaniemcg
Re: Anyone care to talk about drones and chords in the GDAD tuning for Zouks?
I watched a few videos of Reuben Barada with Barry Kerr on youtube playing bouzouki because I bought a second hand one a few weeks ago and was impressed by how he gets a bit away from overdrone...I'm surprised there aren't more tuition dvds for bouzouki...I think the Tim O Brien one is more for mandola. both are good but I'd like to see one by Andy Irvine...all those counter melodies...sigh...GDAE being an upside down version of EADG gives me vertigo sometimes...hence my love of DADGAD
# Posted on July 30th 2009 by mickyfong
Re: Anyone care to talk about drones and chords in the GDAD tuning for Zouks?
I'll second the "simple, least obtrusive" advice. I'll also offer that MOST of the chords I play when I'm accompanying are partial chords, meaning they are generally of the root/fifth variety, with no 3rd. The sound tends to be less obtrusive, IMO, and allows the melody more space. We accompanists have to remember that most of these tunes were meant originally to be played solo. When we add harmonic structure to them, we run the risk of obscuring some interesting melodic ideas that don't necessarily fit with "modern" harmonic normalcy. I have to admit that I have been guilty of this myself, especially when I am not sufficiently familiar with a tune.
# Posted on July 30th 2009 by mickr
Re: Anyone care to talk about drones and chords in the GDAD tuning for Zouks?
I think there's a great advantage in the simplicity of the chord shapes in GDAD tuning. And I agree that's its probably far-and-away the most commonly-used tuning by established bouzouki accompanists in trad. Although It is still possible to do diad-type chords (no third "drone" chords) in GDAE.
My all-time favourite bouzouki album is Matt Molloy's first solo album; it's just him on flute and Donal Lunny on bouzouki (and a couple tracks on guitar). I prefer Lunny's more rhythmic approach to Alec Finn's rollicking counter-thing, but that's just a matter of taste (and anyway Lunny is an established master of counter-point from his Planxty days). Donal Clancy is also a fine bouzouki player--here he is with Mike Rafferty: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8Nw4Mr8bzA
This is a good site for reference if you're not aware of it: http://www.xs4all.nl/~hspeek/bouzouki/ Han has printable chord charts in Adobe and a few tips on playing.
Also check out the indispensable Mel Bay's Celtic Back-Up by Chris Smith; it can be a bit theory-intensive but I'm not sure that's a bad thing--skip over stuff if you find it too difficult. Also a great list of recommended listening at the back of the book.
The most important things for accompanists in my opinion is 1. learn to flatpick the tune on your instrument (or be able to play the melody on another instrument) and 2. and listen to loads of established players; the above list is pretty good.
Also, don't feel like you have to thwak at all four courses at once. Eoin O'Neil for example seldom uses all eight strings.
# Posted on July 30th 2009 by seán_óg
Re: Anyone care to talk about drones and chords in the GDAD tuning for Zouks?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS7NxJDp4zQ&feature=related
A video of Molloy and Lunny (possibly at the Embankment). The Bucks is the last tune on their album I mentioned. James Galway looks on with his dots next to him!
# Posted on July 30th 2009 by seán_óg
Re: Anyone care to talk about drones and chords in the GDAD tuning for Zouks?
<i>"Also, don't feel like you have to thwak at all four courses at once."</i>
Excellent advice.
# Posted on July 31st 2009 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: Anyone care to talk about drones and chords in the GDAD tuning for Zouks?
Just in passing - it's ridiculous for people to insult James
Galway. He'd be the first to admit he's not a folk musician, and
Matt Malloy would be the first to admit he would be hopelessly
lost trying to play in the Berlin Philharmonic. It's like comparing
apples and oranges, or cricket and basketball.
# Posted on July 31st 2009 by Hup
Re: Anyone care to talk about drones and chords in the GDAD tuning for Zouks?
thanks everybody. Thanks Sean for the links and the YouTubes, that was good stuff. And thanks Jack and Nocause for the players. I need to check out Alec Finn. I've heard some of Zan McLeod with James Kelly, but he's on guitar on the record I have
Some of the things that I've stumbled on so far...the octave mandolin is in the same register as the guitar, so all the right hand damping and rhythm strumming techniques from guitar sounds equally good on the octave mandolin
The double stops with 10th, which skip a string in the middle are the ones I have to think about. My first instrument, or native tongue, was the guitar tuned in 4ths. The shapes of the intervals for double stops are upside down on banjo and mandolin. But when the top note lands on the high D string, its not the same and I have to remember to add two frets.
double stops on the lower 3 course sound great against a droning high D
playing the high D as a drone and then walking a bass line sounds pretty good, but its more like a "tenor line" as far as the register
since I also play some fiddle, I have to remember to use the low G course in my chords when its appropriate. I rarely go for the open low G, but if the tune is actually in G, I need to remember that I have that note down there
So I printed out the chord charts and went to Mix's site and got some chord charts to some of the tunes I know, and now I have the weekend to play around with this stuff
thanks guys for all the help
its sort of funny how I've run across little things here on the mustard board, gone and tried them out, and come back with a completely new way of thinking about things.
here I was tuning my octave mandolin in GADE and playing the melody like an idiot. All I had to do was tune down one course of strings and a whole new world opened up
I remember what my old teacher used to say "Music is hard and tricky"
# Posted on July 31st 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: Anyone care to talk about drones and chords in the GDAD tuning for Zouks?
I play backup on my OM using GDAD tuning. One accessory I have found extremely useful and highly recommend for rapid key changes during sets is the "Quick Draw" capo: http://www.quickdrawcapo.com/
# Posted on July 31st 2009 by Michael Eskin
Re: Anyone care to talk about drones and chords in the GDAD tuning for Zouks?
You might want to check out Zac Leger's videos playing with Ben Jaber at:
http://www.youtube.com/user/Legertymusic
I've learned a lot about GDAD playing from Zac.
Cheers,
Michael
# Posted on July 31st 2009 by Michael Eskin
Re: Anyone care to talk about drones and chords in the GDAD tuning for Zouks?
Nate if you send me your e-mail address I will send you a neat little computer app that will generate chords to your hearts content for any stringed instrument (ie any number of strings) tuned to any way your twisted mid can come up with!
GDAD is cool btw.
# Posted on August 5th 2009 by UKCITTERN
Re: Anyone care to talk about drones and chords in the GDAD tuning for Zouks?
"... a neat little app that will generate chords to your hearts content for any stringed instrument", you say UKCITTERN?"
What software might that be, then?
I've looked at several chord auto-generating applications, and none of them worked properly. Therefore you needed to carry out some major editing of the output before being able to use it. Also, a common failing of such software is the total failure to recognise (and therefore to correctly chord) tunes in modal keys.
# Posted on August 5th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Anyone care to talk about drones and chords in the GDAD tuning for Zouks?
Sorry Mix O'Lydian I've been away for a bit in the hills and not in contact.
The application is called FRET
You just tell it how many strings you have
How they are tuned
and how many frets you want to "stretch" the fingers (otherwise it auto generates correct chords that are almost impossible to actually play) and it then generates an extremly neat set of chord
diagrams you can print.
Very simple and as far as I have found infallible.
drop me an email at bevlawton@aol.com and I wil send it to you.
# Posted on August 20th 2009 by UKCITTERN