I play fiddle and therefore have developed a good ear for melody. I am now expanding to guitar but find great problems in working out chords and chord changes for anything other than simple tunes. In particular I am looking for some help with chords for the Ghost of Ballybrolly and Michael Joe Kennedy's. Tunes on the session only have melody. Any suggestions where to look? Please if you want to just slate me for my lack of ability to hear them don't contribute. I've heard it all too many times on this forum
There are various ways of working out the chords, and the ear is not always the most immediately accurate.
Try analysing each phrase of the tune; what are the significant notes, which are the embellishments or grace notes ? Then you have the choice of which chords include these notes. Sometimes a compromise needs to be made in a complex tune, to simplify the accompaniment, and leaving the odd clash as the chordal pattern progresses.
There have been a number of earlier postings on this subject; ignoring the abusive replies, some good advice has been previously given here.
If you play the tune on fiddle, think about which are the stress notes, the ones you accentuate. Take these notes and make them into a chord. You can also just play the note too en route to another chord if it is a fleeting note for example.
Where you hear a change, where you think there should be a change in chording, go with it, try that chord related to that note. Accompaniment is so much more instinctual rather than technical, plus other variables as being able to cue into each different melody player's phrasing for example, which can alter the way you accompany drastically at times. Think of a tune played by an ITM player and the same tune played by a Cape Breton player. It changes so much. There are gradations in between, but things change with each player, maybe not the chording, but definitely the phrasing, and you need to be right with them on it.
In melody playing you know what comes next. In accompaniment you have many more options, many of which may work. I make use of a lot of partial or broken chords, just a combination of two notes (In Dropped D) for variety or just becauseit feels right at the moment, and do a lot of noting parts of the melody for variety. Sometimes, being a total ear player, I am not even sure of what chord I am playing, esp. way up the neck (though can think about it later and put a name on it) but know where that sound lives on the fingerboard. So an in depth study of what notes live where on the fingerboard either by ear or technical knowledge and memory if that is your way, is a major plus in accompaniment. It will greatly increase speed and agility. Guitar is laid out way crazier than any other instrument, it is very complex, which many people don't realize. it is not easy, and many think guitar players just couldn't cut it as a melody player....yet ask the people who say that to try accompaniment, So often they are fully lost and can't grasp it. It's a tough instrument if played well, and a lot of practice is needed, as you are likely finding out.
Good accompaniment is rarely all chords, there is some noting involved too. Some tunes have some pretty quick changes and weird spots. they are almost too fleeting to chord, so you can in these spots hit a note or a few notes of the melody, and that can be a sort of bridge to the next chord. This is good too for spots where you can't figure the chord out, just note it there until the next chord. You play fiddle/melody already so this should be easier for you than others who don't play melody. It makes a nice contrast in the accompaniment too.
Play out the melody on guitar first, doesn't have to be performance perfect, just get the feel for where the chords should change, figure out that note, and play that as a chord for a few beats. Then move to the next. If you play the melody you ought to be able to hear where things shift. Just keep at it and it will become apparent. Take it tune by tune.... there is no one generic backing formula that works for all the music.
I play the ghost of ballybrolly on the harp, if played in E minor i generally use E minor and D with the occasional B, G or C chord, stick to your E drone though. For second part I use A, G, D, and back to E. Try out different chords, if it sounds good then its right, there are no rules once it sounds good. Build up a selection of chords and chord variations so you're not repeating yourself too much. You will eventually here chord changes but that comes with listening to and playing with others, hope I helped.
Just to add, though i agree with most Iris says, as normal, I have a different approach regarding chording. I dont use passing notes generally, Its all chords, Iris makes a very valid point about rapidity of change. Some tunes will change chord on nearly every note in a bar! I use standard tuning to back and dropped D for tunes. I do however change chord very rapidly sometimes, which comes from a lifetime of listening and playing. I too started as an Ear player for the first 20 odd yrs then slowly learnt to read the dots.
Its all about listening and having no conscious thought between your hands and your brain. It is directly from ears to hands. IMO
I however could read from chord charts from day 1. In fact I was gigging in a trad band from the first week I started backing, litterally. I did allready have some tunes befor I started backing, I was fortunate enough to have a great mentor who wrote the chords out for me.
The first 20-30 tunes IMO you should play from accurate chord patters written down by an expert rather than working them out for yourself. Thats my opinion.
After the first20 odd patterns it will all be a lot clearer. You wont make the foolish assumption that its easy to back well. The only person who is going to say that cant do it. You will see some very intricate chord patterns which IMO would be tricky enough to work out when you dont know the Idiom and style.
I certainly dont get it right all the time! recently twice now I have mistakenly played D backing to Am tunes! i guess It doesnt sound right if you know its in Am, However A piper will often be constantly droning D so a lot of these tunes have the drones as part of the music. Its the interaction between drones and tune ,the Bass drone harmonics etc. that create chords.
I could never find a good drone to Em pipe tunes untill I realised it would be D ! and it works, took me 20 yrs to figure that one out. call me slow if you want!
One rule of thumb - if someone tells you "that sounds wrong to me", that's correct. It sounds wrong to them, and that's useful to know. If someone says "play X chord here", they may or may not be correct, and whether they are or not can depend on the tune, on the melody player, or on the phase of the moon.
As a corollary to this, any "chord charts" that you find on the web will probably be wrong. Not always wrong, but wrong in small and significant ways, because the person who worked them out isn't playing with the melody player who's playing the tune, and that makes a huge difference between a G and a Bm, or an Am and a D7, and so on. That doesn't mean they aren't a good source of ideas, while you're trying to learn what works, but don't consider them authoritative.
Another rule of thumb - it's absolutely a good idea to know about standard classical harmony, root-3-5, western modal theory, and so forth. It can't hurt to know about voice leading and jazz harmony.
BUT, and this is the important part, it is absolutely wrong to assume that these rules will work in Irish music.
And finally, it's fair to assume that your accompaniment might add something to the tune, and make for something more than just the melody player alone. This often happens - with all the sessions that happen every week, it probably happens several times a year.
But, and meaning no offense by this, it is absolutely wrong to assume that your additions are required. The most essential part of good accompaniment is the humility required to stop playing.
I am not sure I go along with the change chord every bar idea nor that a D drone is good for every Em tune.( does that mean a g drone for every Am tune ? )
In my experiance often more is less. Complicated jazz chords jar with the modal nature and sometime flattened use of some notes. You did not say what tuning you are using
Be open to the flow of the tune and the person playing it and the instrument they are playing .
Not only the humiluty to stop playing, John, but also the humilty to "Back" the music....it's not called Fronting, LOL! for good reason. Too many guitar or zouk backers cover up the music rather than working with it, a weaving in and out of it is most beautiful to my ear. Where anyone ever got the notion that they have to "drive the music" is beyond me.
many sessions I have been to, where there is often a guitar or bouzouki flailing away, it sounds raspy like thimbles on a wahsboard only louder, just dominating the whole sound. Often out of time and tune. Timing can get tricky on accompaniment, because so many strummers try to do a strum for every single melody note, and strumming is tiring work. I do fingerstyle and very little strum, but when I have tried to strum note for note my arm gets real tired and I will lose the beat. It works better at times to let it breathe a little, let the melody player come through a bit. Hold a strum back and let the melody player have a few notes without you ever strumming away to every single note. The strings will still ring on, it's a nice and tasteful thing to hold back.
To me the sign of great accompaniment is that it puts the focus on the melody player, not itself, no matter how brilliant the accompaniment is. it's there to accentuate the melody player and make them shine, not to cover and detract from them or be the main act.
Even the simplest of backing can work brilliantly if the timing is right and it's tastefully done. You don't need to be a whiz kid at it. I have heard 2-3 chord strummers who got it just on the money. They knew how to listen and be alert to sublte changes and knew the tunes at least basically, not just plow ahead doing the alternating chord thing and hoping to get it right at least most of the time.
Of course I dont always change every note, just that it can and does happen. and I didnt say every Em tune has a D drone, just the ones that I play on my trusty old Gitar!
A lot of the tunes really do break down to two chords, or three, in the simplest analysis. But knowing which parts of those two or three chords to play is important. Playing Cooley's reel, Em and D will be enough, but if you play a full Drop-D 6 string open chord Em or D all the way through, it's probably not going to sound very good. Using partial chords and added notes to imply more intricate harmonies seems to be a required part of the accompanist's arsenal (I hope that doesn't trigger Jeremy's bad word filter!)
'but when I have tried to strum note for note my arm gets real tired and I will lose the beat.'
I'm not suggesting that you should strum note for note, but if your arm becomes tired from strumming there must be something wrong. Try using your wrist instead!
Hehee. I found this thread particularly amusing, personally. I can agree: I play my mandolin like plucking a fiddle on its side because I'm a nitwit with chords. What I find particularly amusing is recalling coming in with new tune for the band. My guitarist asks, what key's it in? I say, Eminor. I start playing it, and he can't find the chords in Eminor. He starts playing other chords, and says it's another key. Funny how that happens.
Wow
The beauty of southern hemisphere living. YOu post a discussion, head out for the evening and off to bed and in the morning a pandora's box of replies.
Some great pointers there from many. I shall spend my Sunday evening chasing many of them up.
Answers to some of the questions. Standard tuning on the guitar.
Ghost of Ballybrolly version I play is pretty much the same as the one in the tunes section http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/2542
Same for Michael Joe Kennedys http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/6969
A few variations but nothing major
Thanks again to all, its a frustrating business when the tune is running away in your head and you just can't find a chord to go with it.
Cheers
(Sorry don't know if they will appear as links)
I'm so disappointed that I shall be in Connecticutt and Western New York, and won't have a chance to meet and hear Iris in NJ, because she talks the absolute sense about accompaniment. I'd like to see her guitars too.
I don't know if I would be as proscriptive as that Ion for a particular tune. They are far too many veriables involved.
I would suggest that if this person was to continue backing tunes they consider retuning from standard to a modal tuning as many people find such tunings easier along with your best buddy
the capo for Irish music as a newbe.
Thanks to all for your ideas. I have plenty to keep experimenting. I agree with the idea of instinct, when I am learning a new tune on the fiddle my fingers will often go to the right place without me really knowing why. But I think you need lots of experience playing tunes - or in this case backing tunes before the instinct works. Thinking chords feels so foreign to me. I mainly do this in the privacy of my own home because I am aware that I do not want to smother or cut across the tune.
IMO backing is all about listening and supporting the tune and players. But what sort of support do they need? Well IMO mostly its rhythmical. Especially in noisy pubs. A solid rhythm lays the ground work that the tune dances on. In truth, in this day and age, pubs are a pretty rotten venue for the real thing, we are forced to compromise because of the noisey feckers celebrating a birthday at the other end of the bar. Its that or give up.
The guitar can really help gel the disparate players in to a solid block of sound that can compete with the crowds.
Banjo, box, are IME the two instruments that can stand their ground against the crowds. Even then their is definitely strength in numbers. This one of the reasons I dont session much, my fiddle is quite, my style is, nowadays, quite laid back.So for me its pretty pointless taking it to sessions, though I do on the odd occasion. I session as a backer mostly because its there that I can really make a difference . I have no wish to try and grind /drawa loud volume out of my fiddle, its not designed for it. If i want to be loud, as a 'Warpiper', its easy, but not really a session instrument!
Backers who really understand trad are rare, I am delighted to encourage guitarists to learn their way into this music, as tune players in this day and age sometimes we need all the support we can get.
Hate to burst your bubble, but the last thing I want when the bar gets loud is the guitar player playing louder and trying to help "support the rhythm" - if it's loud, and I'm playing the box or the banjo, I need to hear where the tune is going, and that's not in the guitar. Perhaps there are melody players who listen to the guitar or the bodhran for the rhythm, and can still play without screwing things up. I haven't met them.
Apparently, backers who understand trad are even more rare than you thought...
Well Jon, Jackie Daly and John Kelly Jr to mention just a couple certainly appreciate my backing so thats good enough for me. I have no interest in the opinions of people who have never heard or played with me. . So if your in Co Clare give me a shout and we can sit down and play a few tunes then perhaps you might revise your opinion.
Jig, if you have no interest in the opinions of people who have never heard or played with you, why do you asume that ALL the people on this site should be interested in your opinions? Give and take mate, give and take.
The thing I like about our backers (one playing at a time, when they are not backing on guitar they are picking tunes out on mandolin) is that they play different chords each time we go through the tune. It makes for a nice variety, keeps it from becoming repetitive (I and the others are rather new to this and don't vary our ornaments as much as I'd like). The two guys are really good guitar players, but they wouldn't dream of playing together, backing at the same time, because of the chord variations/substitutions that they do. It's quite different from old-time jams sessions where only one person plays the melody and everybody backs with the same basic chord structures/progressions.
I agree with the bogman. Play the right chords. There should be enough variation to be found in inversions to keep any strummer happy for the few short bars af these tunes.
One of my pet hates is that fecking Bmin thrown it second time through. Yeeeuck. Or that Fmaj7 instead of the Amin. It's so hacked. It ruins the tunes
What really bugs me is when they substitute An F major, instead of the Am, Especially when we are playing in A Dorian. ! That is a a sacking offence if its repeated too often.
Any way, I love to know who you are referring to when you say "They"
And if you have no interest in the opinions of people who have never heard or played with you, why do you asume that ALL the people on this site should be interested in your opinions? Give and take mate, give and take.
"I have no interest in the opinions of people who have never heard or played with me"
Of course you know that I'm not trying to convince you or change your style. I don't care much what you do, and if the people you play with enjoy it, I've got nothing to say about it.
What I want to do is to make sure that there are fewer, and not more guitarists coming into sessions thinking that they should play louder when the musicians are having trouble hearing each other. This is partly for selfish reasons - I don't like it when theose players come to the place where I'm playing - and partly a philantropic wish to avoid suffering on their part. You see, their egos get bruised when they find that people don't want to play with them because they think they're somehow driving the tunes, and then they sometimes get sad and think that Irish musicians are mean terrible people, and they sometimes decide that they themselves are misunderstood geniuses, but nobody can appreciate their genius guitar playing. In either case, when this happens it becomes very difficult for them to hear what's actually said to them, and they start taking every suggestion as an assault and every moderately polite thing said as an affirmation of their genius, especially when it's said by someone they've heard of, but they never learn a damned thing from any of it, so they never actually improve as musicians, even after spending a lifetime playing the music.
Unbelieveable, I know, but it happens. And that's why I want to prevent bad advice being given to beginning guitarists - bad advice ruins lives and spreads misery.
Well said Jon. There are two types of people who like to play in sessions. They can clearly be distinghished during that particular moment that happens all too often where the assembled company of players begin to have dificulty hearing each other.
One kind of person begins to play more quietly. And the other begins to play more loudly.
It's not rocket science to figure out which is the prefered option.
I will say jon that it appears you have made an assumption about my earlier comments. No where did I say to play louder, anyhow, like all instruments there is a practical limit to volume.
If the crowd is noisy then the guitar helps to gel the different instrument together. Thats is what I said. No where do i give bad advice, not that you would be attempting to twist what I said to mean something completely different and then attack that, as some do here because Im sure you wouldn't stoop so low.
Its not about volume, but tone and breadth of tone. The Spanish guitar, which I play here in the sessions , has a rich bass heavy dynamic range. Of course the essence of backing is Listening.
but the subplot is knowing the correct chords and patterns. Knowing the tunes.
Michael Gill, there aren't '2 types of people.' thats even more simplistic and inaccurate than your 'this music is easy' this music is simple' if that is possible.!
When you are in a session and the players begin to have dificulty hearing each other, what do you do?
You say you play with top players, and then you ask the question: "What support do the need?" Do you not think that that's a tad arrogant? They "need" support?
Its not arrogant llig, its practical, realistic. When I am at a session I know most of the tunes and I am playing them.
At really chaotic loud sessions normally the fiddlers etc listen to me, because if I were to stop playing then no one can hear anyone else. I sit in the middle and act as the Glue, I generally listen to the loudest instrument or the closest in this kind of situation. Of course they need support in this situation .Otherwise the session dies or someone control's the crowd. It is that simple.
Im curious, you regularly session in a small bar in Edinburgh, I assume you must have sessioned in hundreds of other pubs like me, but perhaps Im wrong. Is it just the one small pub you session in? are you familiar with say the crosses of Annagh at Willie Clancy week, on a Friday night? or any big bar at a big Irish Festival. Have you ever even been to Ireland? just curious to find out a bit more about where you are coming from. Please dont dodge the questions or I will probably assume you haven't.
We have different experiences dont assume that they coincide in any but the most superficial way.
"I were to stop playing then no one can hear anyone else." Flippin heck.
You play with top players and "of course they need support". Flippion heck.
Yeah, I mostly play in a small bar. Put I've played in bigger bars and I can't be bothered with it anymore. I'd just as sooner not play at all than struggle to hear. Sometimes it can be fun, your with your mates and that, but the music is rarely any good. I used to go to Ireland a lot when I was younger. Festivals and that. But I just don't like the whole stramash thing. Pointless. I want to play tunes with people. I don't want some bloody strummer wanting to glue himself to me.
I too dont like that 'stramash' of these massive sessions, lowest common denominator kind of thing,and luckily normal sessions arent like that often round here.
Thats Ok llig, Id much rather play with John kelly than you. even if he doesnt do those rolls you are so keen on. Funny that, I guess he cant be a 'real' trad fiddler. Jeez someone should have told him when he was younger eh? http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/19215/comments#comment401551
But even small sessions can get drowned out pretty easily when a young and rowdy birthday party comes in, unless there is a rhythm section which you despise so much!
"At really chaotic loud sessions normally the fiddlers etc listen to me, because if I were to stop playing then no one can hear anyone else."
"I sit in the middle and act as the Glue"
" Of course they need support in this situation. Otherwise the session dies or someone control's the crowd. It is that simple."
Well, good for you, Inana. It's a pretty heavy responsibility, but it's good of you to take it up - otherwise, the session would die. Tell me, do they keep an external defibrillator on hand for the nights when you don't turn up, and the session goes into cardicraic arrest?
No jon, everyone stops playing and goes home, unless they can build up enough critical mass. Thats what happens. Have you sessioned a lot in huge bars? what happens when the crowd is rowdy and boisterous in the massive sessions you are used to playing in? when a piper is completely drowned out, the banjo can be barely heard, you are used to playing in this kind of session ?Im sure , so what happens?
What happens when the crowd gets loud? Usually the quality of the music deteriorates precipitously as soon as people can't hear the person sitting across the table from them. At that point, everyone's listening to the person next to them, and the beat is propagating by relays rather than direct connections, so when it hits the far end of the table it's gone all cockeyed, and it sounds like the banjo's out of time - should be obvious why, and it's not a banjo joke - and that's when you really want that steady player at the center of it all, and you don't want the guitar player drowning them out.
Usually at that point, I tend to lay out, because I don't feel like I'm playing well, and I'd rather sit back and listen than muck things up playing badly.
Exactly. this is where the rhythm section pulls it all together. Not only that but a decent, experienced rhythm section can really help the music fly. A backer/ soloist / etc combination is the solid core of many sessions.
This IMO is one reason why the guitar is so popular , why so many folk Love having an experienced guitarist to play with.
That kind of situation you describe is where I am a steady player in the centre of it all. That is where I often come to the fore, Because I know a lot of tunes, I know a lot more to back, and that is always completely obvious within the first set.
For any backer, there is tune list in the members section. Learn those tunes, start atno 1 and simply work your way down the list.
The idea is that you are playing the tune itself through the medium of your cleverly chosen stacked chords. There are 2 sites here I recomend for clear , simple and accurate chord patterns. Use them , at least at first.
If you learn the tunes themselves you will realise that what í am talking about, playing the tune through the chords is eminently achievable. Once you know the tunes and your theory, it becomes very clear what cords go where as long as you think about it.
But theory is not essential. Listening is.
"Exactly. this is where the rhythm section pulls it all together. Not only that but a decent, experienced rhythm section can really help the music fly. A backer/ soloist / etc combination is the solid core of many sessions."
Many guitar players agree with you. Also many bodhran players. Shakey eggists are also in your camp, as well as some bouzoukitarians.
lonanass - was it yourself sitting beside Jackie Daly at the session.org session in Malones at the Willie week? I recall someone alternating between fiddle and guitar there. If so, hello. However, I must also add that on hearing your accompaniment for myself, your approach and my own to the music are rather different... (I was sitting somewhere in the middle, about opposite "Peter Piper", and was also playing guitar - I had an agreement with "No Cause For Alarm", that we would take turns about every few sets, so that there wasn't too much backing).
I don't disagree with many of the things you say above with respect to learning the tunes and listening (seems obvious, but many accompanists clearly do not listen!), but I certainly don't agree with all you say. Incidentally, 9/10 times, if I hear there is any rhythm issue arising in a noisy bar, I usually stop playing altogether until things begin to gel again. In fact, I find it almost impossible to do otherwise.
Yes Ron. We have very different styles which IMO are appropriate for different sessions. I thrive on large groups mainly , as well as small sessions,but its the large sessions where I can really relax and let go that I enjoy best.
Your style IMO would be very suited to a Harpist, mandolin, another guitarist picking, more gentle refined and subtle. Unlike me!. Although, would you believe it I can be subtle at times.!:-0
My approach is my own, not heavily influenced by any other guitarist. When I started playing and formed my style it was in the 80's so it was bothy band and planxty if I heard recordings at all.
For me it was all about playing with other people. Living rough on the road we had no cassette recorders etc, it was a camp fire, fiddles, poteen, fights , bars, Horses. Busking, gigs. etc etc
I learnt my first tunes in 84. and not a day has gone by without tunes apart from involuntary incarceration, which was generally only a few days at a time here and there. Mainly for playing music on the street or being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Im not a criminal, Im a musician. 4 days in the Morrocan cells for busking, 2 weeks in Spain for busking etc etc I have served my time in more ways than one.
Cheers Ron, Even our instruments are different, you play steel string, I play Spanish, different techniques, different sound etc etc.
You thrive in large groups because you are the glue that holds them together. You enjoy that best. You are the steady player in the centre of it all. That is where you often come to the fore. A piper is completely drowned out, the banjo can be barely heard. Tthe fiddlers etc listen to you, because if you were to stop playing then no one can hear anyone else. You sit in the middle and act as the Glue, Of course they need your support. You session as a backer mostly because its there that you can really make a difference.
It's just so transparent, so "gloatful" haha, I know it's not a word, but it does express how I feel.
And I do enjoy some chord substitutions, not a gazillion of them, but our guys are pretty tasty. Granted, one is my husband... and the other is married to the other fiddle player!! ha! but seriously, backing in ITM is interesting, so different from old-time. refreshingly so.
It's funny, though - if he was saying anything sensible, he wouldn't need to back it up with stories of when he and Turlough O'Carolan were inventing the jig, and how he was actually the piano player on the Michael Coleman recordings, and so forth.
But to say something as inane as "the guitar is what holds the session together" and then back it up with tales of his hard life as a gypsy - did you know that the Moving On Song was actually written about Iownanass' family? It's as true as the rest of it... - it's just bizarre.
Yes Ron - That was indeed our Ionannas at thesession.org session, albeit I didn't know this at the time. Thanks for the agreement over sharing the accompaniment. I wish some of the other guitarists in this neck of the woods would be so ready to reach an agreement like that.
Ion - I am not going to comment on how your guitar playing sounded as you were at the other side of the table and I did not hear it too clearly. I do remember it being quite a flamboyant style however.
It was good to talk with you at the Crosses a few days later (perhaps the Saturday?). We still violently disagree on our approaches to music however. I do not think that your approach lends itself to developing a solid traditional style. The big Crosses Session was definately on the Thursday rather than the Friday, although I don't think I saw you there then.
As far as the original question goes I am afraid that the "right answer" as far as I see it might get me some criticism and that is to listen to the tunes and work it out. I don't mean that as an attack and I realise it is not easy to work out the chords by ear, particularly early on. Ultimately however it will give you the best results in the long term and will allow you to back a greater range of tunes in the future. There are certain structures and guidelines as to the chords that crop up in particular tunes and the links provided early in this thread will help you with that. Good luck in the learning curve.
"I learnt my first tunes in 84. and not a day has gone by without tunes apart from involuntary incarceration, which was generally only a few days at a time here and there. Mainly for playing music on the street or being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Im not a criminal, Im a musician. 4 days in the Morrocan cells for busking, 2 weeks in Spain for busking etc etc I have served my time in more ways than one."
- was that for the whistle tune on your profile page?
Great bogman, you wanna show us how it should be played? Im all ears. it does of course go a lot faster, but as I said, I just pulled it out of the cupboard taped it up and you heard me play it. So why not play it for us on the fiddle? Im sure you play fiddle as well as I play whistle. Or guitar if thats any easier for you. Sure actually as you are a brill whistle player [i mean that] play it on the whistle. Just pick it up by ear or you want the dots?
No Ionanass, I don't play fiddle at all and guitar I've only played in the house apart from covers as a teenager, would never dream of recording with it. If I had the inclination to learn that tune, which I don't, it would be simple to pick it by ear as it is with must tunes. Then again I don't make any claims so I have nothing to prove.
I made a wee joke about your whistle track, maybe a bit mean of me but surely if you want to prove something you should do it on fiddle, guitar of pipes if that's your bag?
Either way I think I have strayed into the middle of a domestic. I was away for the weekend at a festival and I missed all the hullaballoo that I gather has gone on in my absence. If you guys want to chuck mud at each other feel free but I had enough of it this weekend to last a lifetime.
Mud? I seen your facebook pics NCFA......call that mud? Mud is when it's liquid enough to pour over the top of yer wellies. Did the T O behave themselves?
And I don't think my photos truly capture the level of the mud on the Sunday after the heavy rain. There were mud fights going on around the portaloos between "grown men" and some kids - until the police stepped in and there seemed to be a "memorandum of understanding" drawn up between them and the main offender.
Thankfully I missed the mud fights. I am just glad I happened to have my walking boots in the car or I would have been scuppered. I must admit that aside from muddy boots and jeans I got off relatively lightly.
Thanks Alasdair. Right... a good few familiar faces in that lot. Definitely not my cup of tea though, and not traditional at all - despite the musicians involved. However, very lively - and the crowds certainly loved them.
working out the chords
working out the chords
I play fiddle and therefore have developed a good ear for melody. I am now expanding to guitar but find great problems in working out chords and chord changes for anything other than simple tunes. In particular I am looking for some help with chords for the Ghost of Ballybrolly and Michael Joe Kennedy's. Tunes on the session only have melody. Any suggestions where to look? Please if you want to just slate me for my lack of ability to hear them don't contribute. I've heard it all too many times on this forum
Cheers
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by redh
Re: working out the chords
There is a good resource here for the more common tunes:
http://home.comcast.net/~saustin98/lark/
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by bodatcha
Re: working out the chords
redh,
I dont know either of these tunes;
it may help if you tell us;
what key you are playing melody in.
whether there is a particular version you are trying to emulate. - chords differ wildly from version to version
what tuning you are playing chords in.
cheers
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by rumpole
Re: working out the chords
There are various ways of working out the chords, and the ear is not always the most immediately accurate.
Try analysing each phrase of the tune; what are the significant notes, which are the embellishments or grace notes ? Then you have the choice of which chords include these notes. Sometimes a compromise needs to be made in a complex tune, to simplify the accompaniment, and leaving the odd clash as the chordal pattern progresses.
There have been a number of earlier postings on this subject; ignoring the abusive replies, some good advice has been previously given here.
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: working out the chords
Our Resident Mixolydian has a good site for chord patterns. If you link me to the dots for your tunes I could give you some pointers?
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: working out the chords
Click on my screen name, and under my bio you will find some tips on getting started in accompanying this music on the guitar. Best of luck!
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: working out the chords
I'm with G.Pete.
If you play the tune on fiddle, think about which are the stress notes, the ones you accentuate. Take these notes and make them into a chord. You can also just play the note too en route to another chord if it is a fleeting note for example.
Where you hear a change, where you think there should be a change in chording, go with it, try that chord related to that note. Accompaniment is so much more instinctual rather than technical, plus other variables as being able to cue into each different melody player's phrasing for example, which can alter the way you accompany drastically at times. Think of a tune played by an ITM player and the same tune played by a Cape Breton player. It changes so much. There are gradations in between, but things change with each player, maybe not the chording, but definitely the phrasing, and you need to be right with them on it.
In melody playing you know what comes next. In accompaniment you have many more options, many of which may work. I make use of a lot of partial or broken chords, just a combination of two notes (In Dropped D) for variety or just becauseit feels right at the moment, and do a lot of noting parts of the melody for variety. Sometimes, being a total ear player, I am not even sure of what chord I am playing, esp. way up the neck (though can think about it later and put a name on it) but know where that sound lives on the fingerboard. So an in depth study of what notes live where on the fingerboard either by ear or technical knowledge and memory if that is your way, is a major plus in accompaniment. It will greatly increase speed and agility. Guitar is laid out way crazier than any other instrument, it is very complex, which many people don't realize. it is not easy, and many think guitar players just couldn't cut it as a melody player....yet ask the people who say that to try accompaniment, So often they are fully lost and can't grasp it. It's a tough instrument if played well, and a lot of practice is needed, as you are likely finding out.
Good accompaniment is rarely all chords, there is some noting involved too. Some tunes have some pretty quick changes and weird spots. they are almost too fleeting to chord, so you can in these spots hit a note or a few notes of the melody, and that can be a sort of bridge to the next chord. This is good too for spots where you can't figure the chord out, just note it there until the next chord. You play fiddle/melody already so this should be easier for you than others who don't play melody. It makes a nice contrast in the accompaniment too.
Play out the melody on guitar first, doesn't have to be performance perfect, just get the feel for where the chords should change, figure out that note, and play that as a chord for a few beats. Then move to the next. If you play the melody you ought to be able to hear where things shift. Just keep at it and it will become apparent. Take it tune by tune.... there is no one generic backing formula that works for all the music.
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by irisnevins
Re: working out the chords
"Take it tune by tune.... there is no one generic backing formula that works for all the music."
Wise words. If you're a tune player then you're a good way along the road to being a good accompanist as you'll understand the music, and that's key.
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: working out the chords
I play the ghost of ballybrolly on the harp, if played in E minor i generally use E minor and D with the occasional B, G or C chord, stick to your E drone though. For second part I use A, G, D, and back to E. Try out different chords, if it sounds good then its right, there are no rules once it sounds good. Build up a selection of chords and chord variations so you're not repeating yourself too much. You will eventually here chord changes but that comes with listening to and playing with others, hope I helped.
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by pdawg32
Re: working out the chords
Just to add, though i agree with most Iris says, as normal, I have a different approach regarding chording. I dont use passing notes generally, Its all chords, Iris makes a very valid point about rapidity of change. Some tunes will change chord on nearly every note in a bar! I use standard tuning to back and dropped D for tunes. I do however change chord very rapidly sometimes, which comes from a lifetime of listening and playing. I too started as an Ear player for the first 20 odd yrs then slowly learnt to read the dots.
Its all about listening and having no conscious thought between your hands and your brain. It is directly from ears to hands. IMO
I however could read from chord charts from day 1. In fact I was gigging in a trad band from the first week I started backing, litterally. I did allready have some tunes befor I started backing, I was fortunate enough to have a great mentor who wrote the chords out for me.
The first 20-30 tunes IMO you should play from accurate chord patters written down by an expert rather than working them out for yourself. Thats my opinion.
After the first20 odd patterns it will all be a lot clearer. You wont make the foolish assumption that its easy to back well. The only person who is going to say that cant do it. You will see some very intricate chord patterns which IMO would be tricky enough to work out when you dont know the Idiom and style.
I certainly dont get it right all the time! recently twice now I have mistakenly played D backing to Am tunes! i guess It doesnt sound right if you know its in Am, However A piper will often be constantly droning D so a lot of these tunes have the drones as part of the music. Its the interaction between drones and tune ,the Bass drone harmonics etc. that create chords.
I could never find a good drone to Em pipe tunes untill I realised it would be D ! and it works, took me 20 yrs to figure that one out. call me slow if you want!
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: working out the chords
One rule of thumb - if someone tells you "that sounds wrong to me", that's correct. It sounds wrong to them, and that's useful to know. If someone says "play X chord here", they may or may not be correct, and whether they are or not can depend on the tune, on the melody player, or on the phase of the moon.
As a corollary to this, any "chord charts" that you find on the web will probably be wrong. Not always wrong, but wrong in small and significant ways, because the person who worked them out isn't playing with the melody player who's playing the tune, and that makes a huge difference between a G and a Bm, or an Am and a D7, and so on. That doesn't mean they aren't a good source of ideas, while you're trying to learn what works, but don't consider them authoritative.
Another rule of thumb - it's absolutely a good idea to know about standard classical harmony, root-3-5, western modal theory, and so forth. It can't hurt to know about voice leading and jazz harmony.
BUT, and this is the important part, it is absolutely wrong to assume that these rules will work in Irish music.
And finally, it's fair to assume that your accompaniment might add something to the tune, and make for something more than just the melody player alone. This often happens - with all the sessions that happen every week, it probably happens several times a year.
But, and meaning no offense by this, it is absolutely wrong to assume that your additions are required. The most essential part of good accompaniment is the humility required to stop playing.
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: working out the chords
I am not sure I go along with the change chord every bar idea nor that a D drone is good for every Em tune.( does that mean a g drone for every Am tune ? )
In my experiance often more is less. Complicated jazz chords jar with the modal nature and sometime flattened use of some notes. You did not say what tuning you are using
Be open to the flow of the tune and the person playing it and the instrument they are playing .
.
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: working out the chords
Not only the humiluty to stop playing, John, but also the humilty to "Back" the music....it's not called Fronting, LOL! for good reason. Too many guitar or zouk backers cover up the music rather than working with it, a weaving in and out of it is most beautiful to my ear. Where anyone ever got the notion that they have to "drive the music" is beyond me.
many sessions I have been to, where there is often a guitar or bouzouki flailing away, it sounds raspy like thimbles on a wahsboard only louder, just dominating the whole sound. Often out of time and tune. Timing can get tricky on accompaniment, because so many strummers try to do a strum for every single melody note, and strumming is tiring work. I do fingerstyle and very little strum, but when I have tried to strum note for note my arm gets real tired and I will lose the beat. It works better at times to let it breathe a little, let the melody player come through a bit. Hold a strum back and let the melody player have a few notes without you ever strumming away to every single note. The strings will still ring on, it's a nice and tasteful thing to hold back.
To me the sign of great accompaniment is that it puts the focus on the melody player, not itself, no matter how brilliant the accompaniment is. it's there to accentuate the melody player and make them shine, not to cover and detract from them or be the main act.
Even the simplest of backing can work brilliantly if the timing is right and it's tastefully done. You don't need to be a whiz kid at it. I have heard 2-3 chord strummers who got it just on the money. They knew how to listen and be alert to sublte changes and knew the tunes at least basically, not just plow ahead doing the alternating chord thing and hoping to get it right at least most of the time.
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by irisnevins
Re: working out the chords
Where do you live Redh ?
Welcome to pop over for a chat anytime.
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: working out the chords
Thats me Iris, a 3 chord strummer
Of course I dont always change every note, just that it can and does happen. and I didnt say every Em tune has a D drone, just the ones that I play on my trusty old Gitar!
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: working out the chords
be sure to check out "Tunes/comments". Sometimes you can get different takes on modality & chords;
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/7041
"Macedonian Oro"
Flatfish
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: working out the chords
A lot of the tunes really do break down to two chords, or three, in the simplest analysis. But knowing which parts of those two or three chords to play is important. Playing Cooley's reel, Em and D will be enough, but if you play a full Drop-D 6 string open chord Em or D all the way through, it's probably not going to sound very good. Using partial chords and added notes to imply more intricate harmonies seems to be a required part of the accompanist's arsenal (I hope that doesn't trigger Jeremy's bad word filter!)
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: working out the chords
'but when I have tried to strum note for note my arm gets real tired and I will lose the beat.'
I'm not suggesting that you should strum note for note, but if your arm becomes tired from strumming there must be something wrong. Try using your wrist instead!
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by McDermott
Re: working out the chords
Hehee. I found this thread particularly amusing, personally. I can agree: I play my mandolin like plucking a fiddle on its side because I'm a nitwit with chords. What I find particularly amusing is recalling coming in with new tune for the band. My guitarist asks, what key's it in? I say, Eminor. I start playing it, and he can't find the chords in Eminor. He starts playing other chords, and says it's another key. Funny how that happens.
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by Fiddlechick7
Re: working out the chords
Wow
The beauty of southern hemisphere living. YOu post a discussion, head out for the evening and off to bed and in the morning a pandora's box of replies.
Some great pointers there from many. I shall spend my Sunday evening chasing many of them up.
Answers to some of the questions. Standard tuning on the guitar.
Ghost of Ballybrolly version I play is pretty much the same as the one in the tunes section
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/2542
Same for Michael Joe Kennedys
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/6969
A few variations but nothing major
Thanks again to all, its a frustrating business when the tune is running away in your head and you just can't find a chord to go with it.
Cheers
(Sorry don't know if they will appear as links)
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by redh
Re: working out the chords
Have you thought about tuning DADGAD or drop D tuning ?
# Posted on July 26th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: working out the chords
I'm so disappointed that I shall be in Connecticutt and Western New York, and won't have a chance to meet and hear Iris in NJ, because she talks the absolute sense about accompaniment. I'd like to see her guitars too.
# Posted on July 26th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: working out the chords
MJK P1
Am all three first bars G 4th bar.or
AmAmAmGCAmAm- AmAmAmGAmGCG- AmAmAmGCGAmG- G////////
P2 Am first 3 bars G fourth bar.or
AmAmAmAmGGGG- AmAmAmGAmGEmAm-AmAmAmEmAmEmGAm- G////////
This is roughly how Id approach it , Im only humming along here!
Id start with the simple Am and develop to the more intricate pattern. Depending on how fast it goes.
# Posted on July 26th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: working out the chords
oops correction, the first bar is missing a chord here it is again.
Am all three first bars G 4th bar.or
AmAmAmGCGAmAm-AmAmAmGAmGCG- AmAmAmGCGAmG- G////////
P2 Am first 3 bars G fourth bar.or
AmAmAmAmGGGG- AmAmAmGAmGEmAm-AmAmAmEmAmEmGAm- G////////
# Posted on July 26th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: working out the chords
I don't know if I would be as proscriptive as that Ion for a particular tune. They are far too many veriables involved.
I would suggest that if this person was to continue backing tunes they consider retuning from standard to a modal tuning as many people find such tunings easier along with your best buddy
the capo for Irish music as a newbe.
# Posted on July 26th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: working out the chords
Thanks to all for your ideas. I have plenty to keep experimenting. I agree with the idea of instinct, when I am learning a new tune on the fiddle my fingers will often go to the right place without me really knowing why. But I think you need lots of experience playing tunes - or in this case backing tunes before the instinct works. Thinking chords feels so foreign to me. I mainly do this in the privacy of my own home because I am aware that I do not want to smother or cut across the tune.
Thanks to all
Cheers
# Posted on July 26th 2009 by redh
Re: working out the chords
You are welcome, always happy to help out .
IMO backing is all about listening and supporting the tune and players. But what sort of support do they need? Well IMO mostly its rhythmical. Especially in noisy pubs. A solid rhythm lays the ground work that the tune dances on. In truth, in this day and age, pubs are a pretty rotten venue for the real thing, we are forced to compromise because of the noisey feckers celebrating a birthday at the other end of the bar. Its that or give up.
The guitar can really help gel the disparate players in to a solid block of sound that can compete with the crowds.
Banjo, box, are IME the two instruments that can stand their ground against the crowds. Even then their is definitely strength in numbers. This one of the reasons I dont session much, my fiddle is quite, my style is, nowadays, quite laid back.So for me its pretty pointless taking it to sessions, though I do on the odd occasion. I session as a backer mostly because its there that I can really make a difference . I have no wish to try and grind /drawa loud volume out of my fiddle, its not designed for it. If i want to be loud, as a 'Warpiper', its easy, but not really a session instrument!
Backers who really understand trad are rare, I am delighted to encourage guitarists to learn their way into this music, as tune players in this day and age sometimes we need all the support we can get.
# Posted on July 26th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: working out the chords
Hate to burst your bubble, but the last thing I want when the bar gets loud is the guitar player playing louder and trying to help "support the rhythm" - if it's loud, and I'm playing the box or the banjo, I need to hear where the tune is going, and that's not in the guitar. Perhaps there are melody players who listen to the guitar or the bodhran for the rhythm, and can still play without screwing things up. I haven't met them.
Apparently, backers who understand trad are even more rare than you thought...
# Posted on July 26th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: working out the chords
Well Jon, Jackie Daly and John Kelly Jr to mention just a couple certainly appreciate my backing so thats good enough for me. I have no interest in the opinions of people who have never heard or played with me. . So if your in Co Clare give me a shout and we can sit down and play a few tunes then perhaps you might revise your opinion.
# Posted on July 26th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: working out the chords
Jig, if you have no interest in the opinions of people who have never heard or played with you, why do you asume that ALL the people on this site should be interested in your opinions? Give and take mate, give and take.
# Posted on July 26th 2009 by ...
Re: working out the chords
The thing I like about our backers (one playing at a time, when they are not backing on guitar they are picking tunes out on mandolin) is that they play different chords each time we go through the tune. It makes for a nice variety, keeps it from becoming repetitive (I and the others are rather new to this and don't vary our ornaments as much as I'd like). The two guys are really good guitar players, but they wouldn't dream of playing together, backing at the same time, because of the chord variations/substitutions that they do. It's quite different from old-time jams sessions where only one person plays the melody and everybody backs with the same basic chord structures/progressions.
# Posted on July 26th 2009 by Wyogal
Re: working out the chords
I'm with Redh... I primarily play melody on a mandolin but on a guitar I'm just a 3 chord wonder..
Thanks for the link bodatcha... very useful.
# Posted on July 26th 2009 by weebag
Re: working out the chords
If the three chords are the right ones then give me that any day over a 20 chord wonder.
# Posted on July 26th 2009 by bogman
Re: working out the chords
I agree with the bogman. Play the right chords. There should be enough variation to be found in inversions to keep any strummer happy for the few short bars af these tunes.
One of my pet hates is that fecking Bmin thrown it second time through. Yeeeuck. Or that Fmaj7 instead of the Amin. It's so hacked. It ruins the tunes
# Posted on July 27th 2009 by ...
Re: working out the chords
yes! at last! we agree...
# Posted on July 27th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: working out the chords
But what makes you interested in my opinion?
# Posted on July 27th 2009 by ...
Re: working out the chords
What really bugs me is when they substitute An F major, instead of the Am, Especially when we are playing in A Dorian. ! That is a a sacking offence if its repeated too often.
# Posted on July 27th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: working out the chords
wHat's A saCKinG ofFence?
Any way, I love to know who you are referring to when you say "They"
And if you have no interest in the opinions of people who have never heard or played with you, why do you asume that ALL the people on this site should be interested in your opinions? Give and take mate, give and take.
# Posted on July 27th 2009 by ...
Re: working out the chords
"I have no interest in the opinions of people who have never heard or played with me"
Of course you know that I'm not trying to convince you or change your style. I don't care much what you do, and if the people you play with enjoy it, I've got nothing to say about it.
What I want to do is to make sure that there are fewer, and not more guitarists coming into sessions thinking that they should play louder when the musicians are having trouble hearing each other. This is partly for selfish reasons - I don't like it when theose players come to the place where I'm playing - and partly a philantropic wish to avoid suffering on their part. You see, their egos get bruised when they find that people don't want to play with them because they think they're somehow driving the tunes, and then they sometimes get sad and think that Irish musicians are mean terrible people, and they sometimes decide that they themselves are misunderstood geniuses, but nobody can appreciate their genius guitar playing. In either case, when this happens it becomes very difficult for them to hear what's actually said to them, and they start taking every suggestion as an assault and every moderately polite thing said as an affirmation of their genius, especially when it's said by someone they've heard of, but they never learn a damned thing from any of it, so they never actually improve as musicians, even after spending a lifetime playing the music.
Unbelieveable, I know, but it happens. And that's why I want to prevent bad advice being given to beginning guitarists - bad advice ruins lives and spreads misery.
# Posted on July 27th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: working out the chords
Well said Jon. There are two types of people who like to play in sessions. They can clearly be distinghished during that particular moment that happens all too often where the assembled company of players begin to have dificulty hearing each other.
One kind of person begins to play more quietly. And the other begins to play more loudly.
It's not rocket science to figure out which is the prefered option.
# Posted on July 27th 2009 by ...
Re: working out the chords
I will say jon that it appears you have made an assumption about my earlier comments. No where did I say to play louder, anyhow, like all instruments there is a practical limit to volume.
If the crowd is noisy then the guitar helps to gel the different instrument together. Thats is what I said. No where do i give bad advice, not that you would be attempting to twist what I said to mean something completely different and then attack that, as some do here because Im sure you wouldn't stoop so low.
Its not about volume, but tone and breadth of tone. The Spanish guitar, which I play here in the sessions , has a rich bass heavy dynamic range. Of course the essence of backing is Listening.
but the subplot is knowing the correct chords and patterns. Knowing the tunes.
Michael Gill, there aren't '2 types of people.' thats even more simplistic and inaccurate than your 'this music is easy' this music is simple' if that is possible.!
# Posted on July 27th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: working out the chords
When you are in a session and the players begin to have dificulty hearing each other, what do you do?
You say you play with top players, and then you ask the question: "What support do the need?" Do you not think that that's a tad arrogant? They "need" support?
# Posted on July 27th 2009 by ...
Re: working out the chords
Its not arrogant llig, its practical, realistic. When I am at a session I know most of the tunes and I am playing them.
At really chaotic loud sessions normally the fiddlers etc listen to me, because if I were to stop playing then no one can hear anyone else. I sit in the middle and act as the Glue, I generally listen to the loudest instrument or the closest in this kind of situation. Of course they need support in this situation .Otherwise the session dies or someone control's the crowd. It is that simple.
Im curious, you regularly session in a small bar in Edinburgh, I assume you must have sessioned in hundreds of other pubs like me, but perhaps Im wrong. Is it just the one small pub you session in? are you familiar with say the crosses of Annagh at Willie Clancy week, on a Friday night? or any big bar at a big Irish Festival. Have you ever even been to Ireland? just curious to find out a bit more about where you are coming from. Please dont dodge the questions or I will probably assume you haven't.
We have different experiences dont assume that they coincide in any but the most superficial way.
# Posted on July 27th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: working out the chords
"I were to stop playing then no one can hear anyone else." Flippin heck.
You play with top players and "of course they need support". Flippion heck.
Yeah, I mostly play in a small bar. Put I've played in bigger bars and I can't be bothered with it anymore. I'd just as sooner not play at all than struggle to hear. Sometimes it can be fun, your with your mates and that, but the music is rarely any good. I used to go to Ireland a lot when I was younger. Festivals and that. But I just don't like the whole stramash thing. Pointless. I want to play tunes with people. I don't want some bloody strummer wanting to glue himself to me.
# Posted on July 27th 2009 by ...
Re: working out the chords
I too dont like that 'stramash' of these massive sessions, lowest common denominator kind of thing,and luckily normal sessions arent like that often round here.
Thats Ok llig, Id much rather play with John kelly than you. even if he doesnt do those rolls you are so keen on. Funny that, I guess he cant be a 'real' trad fiddler. Jeez someone should have told him when he was younger eh? http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/19215/comments#comment401551
But even small sessions can get drowned out pretty easily when a young and rowdy birthday party comes in, unless there is a rhythm section which you despise so much!
# Posted on July 27th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: working out the chords
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/19215/comments#comment401551
# Posted on July 27th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: working out the chords
"At really chaotic loud sessions normally the fiddlers etc listen to me, because if I were to stop playing then no one can hear anyone else."
"I sit in the middle and act as the Glue"
" Of course they need support in this situation. Otherwise the session dies or someone control's the crowd. It is that simple."
Well, good for you, Inana. It's a pretty heavy responsibility, but it's good of you to take it up - otherwise, the session would die. Tell me, do they keep an external defibrillator on hand for the nights when you don't turn up, and the session goes into cardicraic arrest?
# Posted on July 27th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: working out the chords
No jon, everyone stops playing and goes home, unless they can build up enough critical mass. Thats what happens. Have you sessioned a lot in huge bars? what happens when the crowd is rowdy and boisterous in the massive sessions you are used to playing in? when a piper is completely drowned out, the banjo can be barely heard, you are used to playing in this kind of session ?Im sure , so what happens?
# Posted on July 27th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: working out the chords
correction ''you are used to playing in this kind of session Im sure''
I like the cardicraic arrest, that was funny.
# Posted on July 27th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: working out the chords
What happens when the crowd gets loud? Usually the quality of the music deteriorates precipitously as soon as people can't hear the person sitting across the table from them. At that point, everyone's listening to the person next to them, and the beat is propagating by relays rather than direct connections, so when it hits the far end of the table it's gone all cockeyed, and it sounds like the banjo's out of time - should be obvious why, and it's not a banjo joke - and that's when you really want that steady player at the center of it all, and you don't want the guitar player drowning them out.
Usually at that point, I tend to lay out, because I don't feel like I'm playing well, and I'd rather sit back and listen than muck things up playing badly.
"I like the cardicraic arrest, that was funny."
Thank you. I try.
# Posted on July 27th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: working out the chords
Exactly. this is where the rhythm section pulls it all together. Not only that but a decent, experienced rhythm section can really help the music fly. A backer/ soloist / etc combination is the solid core of many sessions.
This IMO is one reason why the guitar is so popular , why so many folk Love having an experienced guitarist to play with.
That kind of situation you describe is where I am a steady player in the centre of it all. That is where I often come to the fore, Because I know a lot of tunes, I know a lot more to back, and that is always completely obvious within the first set.
For any backer, there is tune list in the members section. Learn those tunes, start atno 1 and simply work your way down the list.
The idea is that you are playing the tune itself through the medium of your cleverly chosen stacked chords. There are 2 sites here I recomend for clear , simple and accurate chord patterns. Use them , at least at first.
If you learn the tunes themselves you will realise that what í am talking about, playing the tune through the chords is eminently achievable. Once you know the tunes and your theory, it becomes very clear what cords go where as long as you think about it.
But theory is not essential. Listening is.
# Posted on July 27th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: working out the chords
"Exactly. this is where the rhythm section pulls it all together. Not only that but a decent, experienced rhythm section can really help the music fly. A backer/ soloist / etc combination is the solid core of many sessions."
Many guitar players agree with you. Also many bodhran players. Shakey eggists are also in your camp, as well as some bouzoukitarians.
# Posted on July 27th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: working out the chords
lonanass - was it yourself sitting beside Jackie Daly at the session.org session in Malones at the Willie week? I recall someone alternating between fiddle and guitar there. If so, hello. However, I must also add that on hearing your accompaniment for myself, your approach and my own to the music are rather different... (I was sitting somewhere in the middle, about opposite "Peter Piper", and was also playing guitar - I had an agreement with "No Cause For Alarm", that we would take turns about every few sets, so that there wasn't too much backing).
I don't disagree with many of the things you say above with respect to learning the tunes and listening (seems obvious, but many accompanists clearly do not listen!), but I certainly don't agree with all you say. Incidentally, 9/10 times, if I hear there is any rhythm issue arising in a noisy bar, I usually stop playing altogether until things begin to gel again. In fact, I find it almost impossible to do otherwise.
# Posted on July 27th 2009 by On Sabbatical
Re: working out the chords
Yes Ron. We have very different styles which IMO are appropriate for different sessions. I thrive on large groups mainly , as well as small sessions,but its the large sessions where I can really relax and let go that I enjoy best.
Your style IMO would be very suited to a Harpist, mandolin, another guitarist picking, more gentle refined and subtle. Unlike me!. Although, would you believe it I can be subtle at times.!:-0
My approach is my own, not heavily influenced by any other guitarist. When I started playing and formed my style it was in the 80's so it was bothy band and planxty if I heard recordings at all.
For me it was all about playing with other people. Living rough on the road we had no cassette recorders etc, it was a camp fire, fiddles, poteen, fights , bars, Horses. Busking, gigs. etc etc
I learnt my first tunes in 84. and not a day has gone by without tunes apart from involuntary incarceration, which was generally only a few days at a time here and there. Mainly for playing music on the street or being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Im not a criminal, Im a musician. 4 days in the Morrocan cells for busking, 2 weeks in Spain for busking etc etc I have served my time in more ways than one.
Cheers Ron, Even our instruments are different, you play steel string, I play Spanish, different techniques, different sound etc etc.
# Posted on July 27th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: working out the chords
You thrive in large groups because you are the glue that holds them together. You enjoy that best. You are the steady player in the centre of it all. That is where you often come to the fore. A piper is completely drowned out, the banjo can be barely heard. Tthe fiddlers etc listen to you, because if you were to stop playing then no one can hear anyone else. You sit in the middle and act as the Glue, Of course they need your support. You session as a backer mostly because its there that you can really make a difference.
Ergo ego.
# Posted on July 27th 2009 by ...
Re: working out the chords
My bullsh!t detector is going absolutely mental.
# Posted on July 27th 2009 by bogman
Re: working out the chords
hahahahahahaha...
but, what do I know?
# Posted on July 27th 2009 by Wyogal
Re: working out the chords
"...different techniques, different sound etc etc."
Yes, I can certainly agree with you on that one
# Posted on July 27th 2009 by On Sabbatical
Re: working out the chords
Apparently, wyogal, none of us know very much at all. We're not sticky enough.
# Posted on July 27th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: working out the chords
It's just so transparent, so "gloatful" haha, I know it's not a word, but it does express how I feel.
And I do enjoy some chord substitutions, not a gazillion of them, but our guys are pretty tasty. Granted, one is my husband... and the other is married to the other fiddle player!! ha! but seriously, backing in ITM is interesting, so different from old-time. refreshingly so.
# Posted on July 27th 2009 by Wyogal
Re: working out the chords
It's funny, though - if he was saying anything sensible, he wouldn't need to back it up with stories of when he and Turlough O'Carolan were inventing the jig, and how he was actually the piano player on the Michael Coleman recordings, and so forth.
But to say something as inane as "the guitar is what holds the session together" and then back it up with tales of his hard life as a gypsy - did you know that the Moving On Song was actually written about Iownanass' family? It's as true as the rest of it... - it's just bizarre.
# Posted on July 27th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: working out the chords
LOL
# Posted on July 27th 2009 by On Sabbatical
Re: working out the chords
and I thought the guitar was relatively new to ITM. i don't know that song, I'll have to look it up.
# Posted on July 27th 2009 by Wyogal
Re: working out the chords
Yes Ron - That was indeed our Ionannas at thesession.org session, albeit I didn't know this at the time. Thanks for the agreement over sharing the accompaniment. I wish some of the other guitarists in this neck of the woods would be so ready to reach an agreement like that.
Ion - I am not going to comment on how your guitar playing sounded as you were at the other side of the table and I did not hear it too clearly. I do remember it being quite a flamboyant style however.
It was good to talk with you at the Crosses a few days later (perhaps the Saturday?). We still violently disagree on our approaches to music however. I do not think that your approach lends itself to developing a solid traditional style. The big Crosses Session was definately on the Thursday rather than the Friday, although I don't think I saw you there then.
As far as the original question goes I am afraid that the "right answer" as far as I see it might get me some criticism and that is to listen to the tunes and work it out. I don't mean that as an attack and I realise it is not easy to work out the chords by ear, particularly early on. Ultimately however it will give you the best results in the long term and will allow you to back a greater range of tunes in the future. There are certain structures and guidelines as to the chords that crop up in particular tunes and the links provided early in this thread will help you with that. Good luck in the learning curve.
# Posted on July 27th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: working out the chords
"I learnt my first tunes in 84. and not a day has gone by without tunes apart from involuntary incarceration, which was generally only a few days at a time here and there. Mainly for playing music on the street or being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Im not a criminal, Im a musician. 4 days in the Morrocan cells for busking, 2 weeks in Spain for busking etc etc I have served my time in more ways than one."
- was that for the whistle tune on your profile page?
# Posted on July 27th 2009 by bogman
Re: working out the chords
tee he
# Posted on July 27th 2009 by ...
Re: working out the chords
I always thought you had the look of a convict about you Bogman!
# Posted on July 27th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: working out the chords
Great bogman, you wanna show us how it should be played? Im all ears.
it does of course go a lot faster, but as I said, I just pulled it out of the cupboard taped it up and you heard me play it. So why not play it for us on the fiddle? Im sure you play fiddle as well as I play whistle. Or guitar if thats any easier for you. Sure actually as you are a brill whistle player [i mean that] play it on the whistle. Just pick it up by ear or you want the dots?
# Posted on July 27th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: working out the chords
Thats my quote no cause.
# Posted on July 27th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: working out the chords
There's nothing there to pick up
# Posted on July 27th 2009 by ...
Re: working out the chords
No Ionanass, I don't play fiddle at all and guitar I've only played in the house apart from covers as a teenager, would never dream of recording with it. If I had the inclination to learn that tune, which I don't, it would be simple to pick it by ear as it is with must tunes. Then again I don't make any claims so I have nothing to prove.
I made a wee joke about your whistle track, maybe a bit mean of me but surely if you want to prove something you should do it on fiddle, guitar of pipes if that's your bag?
# Posted on July 27th 2009 by bogman
Re: working out the chords
"Thats my quote no cause"
Not sure what you mean Ion.
Either way I think I have strayed into the middle of a domestic. I was away for the weekend at a festival and I missed all the hullaballoo that I gather has gone on in my absence. If you guys want to chuck mud at each other feel free but I had enough of it this weekend to last a lifetime.
# Posted on July 27th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: working out the chords
Mud? I seen your facebook pics NCFA......call that mud? Mud is when it's liquid enough to pour over the top of yer wellies. Did the T O behave themselves?
# Posted on July 27th 2009 by bogman
Re: working out the chords
The TO were excellent as were the Shoogles.
And I don't think my photos truly capture the level of the mud on the Sunday after the heavy rain. There were mud fights going on around the portaloos between "grown men" and some kids - until the police stepped in and there seemed to be a "memorandum of understanding" drawn up between them and the main offender.
Thankfully I missed the mud fights. I am just glad I happened to have my walking boots in the car or I would have been scuppered. I must admit that aside from muddy boots and jeans I got off relatively lightly.
# Posted on July 27th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: working out the chords
Just so I can swing back to the topic and duck out of a thread where I don't really belong here's a wee youtube clip on backing the Salamanca if it's helpful to anyone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MQMOgU6hXk&feature=related
# Posted on July 27th 2009 by bogman
Re: working out the chords
"The TO were excellent as were the Shoogles."
Alasdair - what's TO stand for, surely "The Osmonds" aren't back together again?
# Posted on July 28th 2009 by On Sabbatical
Re: working out the chords
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZZt6hEGVhw
# Posted on July 28th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: working out the chords
Thanks Alasdair. Right... a good few familiar faces in that lot. Definitely not my cup of tea though, and not traditional at all - despite the musicians involved. However, very lively - and the crowds certainly loved them.
# Posted on July 28th 2009 by On Sabbatical
Re: working out the chords
Not traditional at all - and not trying to be.
# Posted on July 28th 2009 by bogman
Re: working out the chords
Yes, agreed - not trying to be. (It wasn't intended to be a criticism).
# Posted on July 28th 2009 by On Sabbatical