I have recently started listening to scottish trad bands such as "lau" and "session A9" and I was wondering what the difference between their music and our's is? I can see no obvious differences, could anyone shed some light on this for me? Thanks.
The difference lies in pulse, rhythmic emphasis, types of tunes, types of dances etc.. There's a huge difference between Scottish music and Irish music to the experienced ear. Even in areas with a strong musical link to Scotland, such as Donegal, there's a unique regional tradition that is identifiable to those who listen to this music in it's many different forms.
Like Sunnybear suggests, if you listen to more traditional representations of the regional styles, you'll discern the differences more easily.
Lau aren't really representative of traditional Scottish music - they play their own compositions in a particularly virtuosic, complexly-arranged way. If you want to hear the subtle differences between regional styles throughout Scotland and Ireland, it's easier to do so by listening to solo and duet performances, rather than more modern ensemble arrangements.
I think Robert has put it well. I would add that what is considered trad in Scotland is probably more diverse in here than Ireland (not a criticism of either in any way) IMO. Ceilidh music, Country dance, session stuff through to what might be called fusion is all usually seen as part of trad music here to such an extent that some areas are closer to Irish music than they are to other areas of Scotland. Most of the differences would be with the dance music in general, in a session the bulk of the tunes are interchangeable.
Myspace is good for checking out Scottish trad, if you go to the Session A9 page you'll find loads of other trad stuff to have a listen to. Here's some starters. Remember, Scots music is more rhythm based and if you expect to many similarities you'll likely be disappointed.
I speaking here from an accordionist point of view, although I feel this opinion could also apply to fiddle players, Having lived, danced, and played during the halcyon days of Ceili Dancing (not set dancing) I would have to say that Scottish tunes were always the livest tunes to play for the dances, and many ceili bands had them in their repertoire and played them with great gusto. I am also of the opinion that the so called North South musical divide was probably caused by the fact that musicians North of the island of Ireland were influenced by listening to the regular Scottish Country Dance programmes on BBC Northern Ireland. I think in those early days the BBC signal probably faded around the centre of the country. Even in Comhaltas competitions I often heard musicians (particularly accordionists) criticized by judges for been 'too scots-chee'. In other words their playing was too bouncy and lacked the Nyah which would have been the style of playing from regions south of the country. Finally, in 1954 Jimmy Shand and his Band toured Ireland. In Cappagh White, Co Tipperary 10,000 dancers turned up to see him, but only 2000 were allowed into the dance in a specially erected marquee. Eventually the canvas walls of the Marquee were rolled up so it was a sort of a free for all. In Cork the band was booked to play in the Arcadia Ballroom. The hall held 1400 but somehow 3000 tickets were sold. The congestion in the surrounding streets was such that the Police asked Jimmy's permission to open the doors of the hall early in an effort to relieve the crush. Ah! the good old days of Scottish Music.
Everybody loves a star, Free Reed !
But back to the original question......
.....I reckon that the differences are more in the rhythmic aspect and accenting within the music, and to distinguish between Irish and Scottish is to find local variations between a wider-spread general 'Celtic' ( for want of a better word ) type of music. I also wonder how recent are some of these variations. It would be interesting to find where someone had been able to accurately notate the accenting and phrasing of the different styles from, say, 2 to 3 hundred years ago, and compare these to how people play then today, apart from the obvious changing of the actual notes of the tunes as they are handed on.
Oh for a Tardis and a mini-disc recorder !
That's really interesting stuff Free Reed. Strangely, here in Skye, I had almost the opposite experience. My first 10 years playing was mainly for dances in accordion lead bands but they were the last 10 years of when ceilidhs really ruled here. Great times, when Dunvegan was very famous for its dances. Then trad in this area took a serious nosedive and for ten odd years there was only piping and the odd band to cling on to. During that period is when I and many other really Scots traddies got into Irish music.
The last 10 - 15 years though it feels like Scottish trad has returned in a big way, it has changed a lot mainly by becoming much more diverse and all encompassing and there is no doubt in my mind that it's stronger than at any time in my lifetime. Irish tunes are now very much a part of the scene here, probably due to that slack period and the influence of the great Irish bands of that time.
Pete, I think the rhythmic snapping that you identify as such a crucially-defining characteristic of Scottish music has been a well-documented feature of treatises and observations made by commentators throughout the last few hundred years, as it has been written into transcriptions of Scottish tunes for a very long time, albeit imperfectly. Whether you agree or disagree with the written note (dot?) as a representation of music, it has been a greater part of the Scottish tradition for far longer than it has been a part of the Irish. The Scottish collections, with their particular representations of tunes, can be seen as snap-shots in time, even if they can't truly represent the way that tunes are played. But, composers and collectors did make an effort to convey that particular stylistic and rhythmical uniqueness in their transcriptions, and to some extent they succeeded.
(And before anybody wastes their precious bile by writing about class differences in musical literacy, inadequacy of writing as a representation of an aural form and suchlike, it really isn't relevant here, and a dots vs. ears debate isn't necessary, ta.)
Bogman, do you notice that the Irish tunes played in Scottish sessions tend to be played with a similar rhythmic pulse to the Scottish tunes alongside which they are played? I agree that Scottish music is very strong at the moment, and one of the manifestations of its strength is the extent to which 'New-Trad' players of Irish music are influenced by the beat-steady, snappy rhythms of Scottish and northern-Irish music far more than the backbeat-driven (behind-the-beat even) style of the old players from the south-west of Ireland.
I noticed the snappy rhythm but thought that was the style of the individual player rather than the style of the location, that makes a lot more sense. Does anyone group some of these tunes in a set with Irish tunes? If so do you change the rhythm to a more southern style?
I read in a similar discussion that certain of those dreaded "modes" that predominate in irish are less common in scottish, and visa versa.
I can't comment on this, I don't do modes.
Perhaps one of you modey gonques can help here......
Robert, yes, very much so, probably in the same way that, for example, Mrs MacLeod of Raasay would be played as an Irish tune in Irish sessions. I think the snappy rhythms have been ironed out over the past few years and the two styles have become closer, probably as a natural result of modern media. CD, radio, TV and internet are great ways of finding and learning tunes but likely to the detriment of regional and even national styles.
I hadn't thought about the process working in reverse, but of course it does. Seems particularly obvious when I think about a friend of mine who taught me a few Scottish reels in A major which I proceeded to Hibernicise by playing in G major and slapping on the back-beat. She wasn't a bit impressed...
Rumpole, Scottish music employs the mixolydian modes, particularly in A. Somebody please correct me if I'm mistaken, but I believe that the GHB doesn't have a G#, which makes playing in the mixolydian mode absolutely necessary when playing in A. I think Scottish tunes are less likely to employ the Dorian modes, and play in minor keys instead. Modes aren't so complicated. The difference between dorian and minor is simply that the sixth note of the latter scale is flattened, whereas in the former it isn't. The difference between mixolydian and major is that in the former the seventh note of the scale is flattened.
eg: D major = D,E,F#,G,A,B,c#,d
D mixolydian = D,E,F#,G,A,B,c,d
D minor = D,E,F,G,A,Bb,c,d
D dorian = D,E,F,G,A,B,c,d
Clear as mud?
The war music of the Highland Bagpipes must lie behind a lot of the pulse and drive in today's Scottish music. Though I can imagine some of the fiddle pioneers of the past wanting to emancipate themselves from all that in a search to create a music of more graciousness and elegance.
Don't get me wrong - I love the GHB (played well).
where the 3rd part shifts into E dorian much the same way as in the Paddy O'Brien Tune, The Antrim Rose.
The Highland Pipe scale is G A B C# D E F# G A. In other words it has all the notes of a D scale but instead runs from G to A. There are some great Highland Pipe tunes in G that make good use of that low G (and by necessity avoid the Cnat).
If you can take a listen to Tich Frier's version of Jim Malcolm's "Lochanside" thats Tradditional tune with words from one of Scotlands leading singer songwriters
"The war music of the Highland Bagpipes must lie behind a lot of the pulse and drive in today's Scottish music" - to be honest Nicholas most of the military music from the pipes is marches of different types. The drive you hear at Scottish sessions is just the way the tunes have evolved from dancing. Ceilidh dancing (areas where pipes are more prominent) is a lot more vigorous and less formal than Scottish Country Dance and pipe tunes are much more common in Ceilidh than SCD.
The only dynamic in pipe music is the ornaments so subtlety in very low in the list of priorities with the instrument, it just seems to have pulled other instruments with it.
The snare drum though....even though I played drums in ceilidh bands as a teenager I hate the thing with a passion. Totally makes an @rse of Scottish dance music IMO.
The swing and the snap of Scots music is truly unique. If you are interested, I would suggest the strathspey "the Sweetness of Mary' as a good starting point. It is usually played at a nice relaxed pace, so it is a good first strathspey. Google the name, and listen to folks like Aly Bain and Alisdair Fraser as they approach the tune. Look at the dots posted here on The Session. Notice all the long-short note pairs, and the surprising short-long of the scottish snaps when they appear. As you play the tune yourself, you will begin to appreciate the differences between the swing of Scots music, and more flowing nature of the Irish approach.
And as many above have said, go to the roots players and solo recordings, not the flashy young groups. They all tend toward a pan-national style that mixes together a lot of influences.
Scottish Music
Scottish Music
I have recently started listening to scottish trad bands such as "lau" and "session A9" and I was wondering what the difference between their music and our's is? I can see no obvious differences, could anyone shed some light on this for me? Thanks.
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by pdawg32
Re: Scottish Music
are those bands the Scottish equivalnet to Lunasa and Dervish?
if so, then listen to some Scottish trad and you will hear the difference between Scottish music and your music.
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by Sunnybear
Re: Scottish Music
...isn't that what he just did?
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by steve...r
Re: Scottish Music
The difference lies in pulse, rhythmic emphasis, types of tunes, types of dances etc.. There's a huge difference between Scottish music and Irish music to the experienced ear. Even in areas with a strong musical link to Scotland, such as Donegal, there's a unique regional tradition that is identifiable to those who listen to this music in it's many different forms.
Like Sunnybear suggests, if you listen to more traditional representations of the regional styles, you'll discern the differences more easily.
Lau aren't really representative of traditional Scottish music - they play their own compositions in a particularly virtuosic, complexly-arranged way. If you want to hear the subtle differences between regional styles throughout Scotland and Ireland, it's easier to do so by listening to solo and duet performances, rather than more modern ensemble arrangements.
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by Dragut Reis
Re: Scottish Music
I was going to comment - but Robert says it all most precisely. Well put, sir.
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by Sean Lead Liath
Re: Scottish Music
I think Robert has put it well. I would add that what is considered trad in Scotland is probably more diverse in here than Ireland (not a criticism of either in any way) IMO. Ceilidh music, Country dance, session stuff through to what might be called fusion is all usually seen as part of trad music here to such an extent that some areas are closer to Irish music than they are to other areas of Scotland. Most of the differences would be with the dance music in general, in a session the bulk of the tunes are interchangeable.
Myspace is good for checking out Scottish trad, if you go to the Session A9 page you'll find loads of other trad stuff to have a listen to. Here's some starters. Remember, Scots music is more rhythm based and if you expect to many similarities you'll likely be disappointed.
http://www.myspace.com/sessiona9
http://www.myspace.com/daimh
http://www.myspace.com/breabach
http://www.myspace.com/rossandjarlath
http://www.myspace.com/treacherousorchestra
http://www.myspace.com/oldblinddogs
http://www.myspace.com/pipedownmusic
http://www.myspace.com/maevemackinnon
http://www.myspace.com/juliefowlis
http://www.myspace.com/dochasmusic
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by bogman
Re: Scottish Music
I speaking here from an accordionist point of view, although I feel this opinion could also apply to fiddle players, Having lived, danced, and played during the halcyon days of Ceili Dancing (not set dancing) I would have to say that Scottish tunes were always the livest tunes to play for the dances, and many ceili bands had them in their repertoire and played them with great gusto. I am also of the opinion that the so called North South musical divide was probably caused by the fact that musicians North of the island of Ireland were influenced by listening to the regular Scottish Country Dance programmes on BBC Northern Ireland. I think in those early days the BBC signal probably faded around the centre of the country. Even in Comhaltas competitions I often heard musicians (particularly accordionists) criticized by judges for been 'too scots-chee'. In other words their playing was too bouncy and lacked the Nyah which would have been the style of playing from regions south of the country. Finally, in 1954 Jimmy Shand and his Band toured Ireland. In Cappagh White, Co Tipperary 10,000 dancers turned up to see him, but only 2000 were allowed into the dance in a specially erected marquee. Eventually the canvas walls of the Marquee were rolled up so it was a sort of a free for all. In Cork the band was booked to play in the Arcadia Ballroom. The hall held 1400 but somehow 3000 tickets were sold. The congestion in the surrounding streets was such that the Police asked Jimmy's permission to open the doors of the hall early in an effort to relieve the crush. Ah! the good old days of Scottish Music.
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by Free Reed
Re: Scottish Music
Everybody loves a star, Free Reed !
But back to the original question......
.....I reckon that the differences are more in the rhythmic aspect and accenting within the music, and to distinguish between Irish and Scottish is to find local variations between a wider-spread general 'Celtic' ( for want of a better word ) type of music. I also wonder how recent are some of these variations. It would be interesting to find where someone had been able to accurately notate the accenting and phrasing of the different styles from, say, 2 to 3 hundred years ago, and compare these to how people play then today, apart from the obvious changing of the actual notes of the tunes as they are handed on.
Oh for a Tardis and a mini-disc recorder !
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Scottish Music
That's really interesting stuff Free Reed. Strangely, here in Skye, I had almost the opposite experience. My first 10 years playing was mainly for dances in accordion lead bands but they were the last 10 years of when ceilidhs really ruled here. Great times, when Dunvegan was very famous for its dances. Then trad in this area took a serious nosedive and for ten odd years there was only piping and the odd band to cling on to. During that period is when I and many other really Scots traddies got into Irish music.
The last 10 - 15 years though it feels like Scottish trad has returned in a big way, it has changed a lot mainly by becoming much more diverse and all encompassing and there is no doubt in my mind that it's stronger than at any time in my lifetime. Irish tunes are now very much a part of the scene here, probably due to that slack period and the influence of the great Irish bands of that time.
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by bogman
Re: Scottish Music
Pete, I think the rhythmic snapping that you identify as such a crucially-defining characteristic of Scottish music has been a well-documented feature of treatises and observations made by commentators throughout the last few hundred years, as it has been written into transcriptions of Scottish tunes for a very long time, albeit imperfectly. Whether you agree or disagree with the written note (dot?) as a representation of music, it has been a greater part of the Scottish tradition for far longer than it has been a part of the Irish. The Scottish collections, with their particular representations of tunes, can be seen as snap-shots in time, even if they can't truly represent the way that tunes are played. But, composers and collectors did make an effort to convey that particular stylistic and rhythmical uniqueness in their transcriptions, and to some extent they succeeded.
(And before anybody wastes their precious bile by writing about class differences in musical literacy, inadequacy of writing as a representation of an aural form and suchlike, it really isn't relevant here, and a dots vs. ears debate isn't necessary, ta.)
Bogman, do you notice that the Irish tunes played in Scottish sessions tend to be played with a similar rhythmic pulse to the Scottish tunes alongside which they are played? I agree that Scottish music is very strong at the moment, and one of the manifestations of its strength is the extent to which 'New-Trad' players of Irish music are influenced by the beat-steady, snappy rhythms of Scottish and northern-Irish music far more than the backbeat-driven (behind-the-beat even) style of the old players from the south-west of Ireland.
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by Dragut Reis
Re: Scottish Music
I noticed the snappy rhythm but thought that was the style of the individual player rather than the style of the location, that makes a lot more sense. Does anyone group some of these tunes in a set with Irish tunes? If so do you change the rhythm to a more southern style?
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by pdawg32
Re: Scottish Music
I read in a similar discussion that certain of those dreaded "modes" that predominate in irish are less common in scottish, and visa versa.
I can't comment on this, I don't do modes.
Perhaps one of you modey gonques can help here......
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by rumpole
Re: Scottish Music
Robert, yes, very much so, probably in the same way that, for example, Mrs MacLeod of Raasay would be played as an Irish tune in Irish sessions. I think the snappy rhythms have been ironed out over the past few years and the two styles have become closer, probably as a natural result of modern media. CD, radio, TV and internet are great ways of finding and learning tunes but likely to the detriment of regional and even national styles.
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by bogman
Re: Scottish Music
I hadn't thought about the process working in reverse, but of course it does. Seems particularly obvious when I think about a friend of mine who taught me a few Scottish reels in A major which I proceeded to Hibernicise by playing in G major and slapping on the back-beat. She wasn't a bit impressed...
Rumpole, Scottish music employs the mixolydian modes, particularly in A. Somebody please correct me if I'm mistaken, but I believe that the GHB doesn't have a G#, which makes playing in the mixolydian mode absolutely necessary when playing in A. I think Scottish tunes are less likely to employ the Dorian modes, and play in minor keys instead. Modes aren't so complicated. The difference between dorian and minor is simply that the sixth note of the latter scale is flattened, whereas in the former it isn't. The difference between mixolydian and major is that in the former the seventh note of the scale is flattened.
eg: D major = D,E,F#,G,A,B,c#,d
D mixolydian = D,E,F#,G,A,B,c,d
D minor = D,E,F,G,A,Bb,c,d
D dorian = D,E,F,G,A,B,c,d
Clear as mud?
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by Dragut Reis
Re: Scottish Music
Can someone help me make comparisons ?
Was what Jimmy Shand's band was doing in the 50s the equivalent of the 1950s irish ceilidh bands as in the old recordings ?
What would a current irish equivalent of Fergie Macdonald's band be ?
How would comparing those relate to the way tunes are played in sessions ?
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by David50
Re: Scottish Music
it all sounds the same
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by drone
Re: Scottish Music
Nah, diddley and diddly don't sound the same...
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by Pat Mustard
Re: Scottish Music
The war music of the Highland Bagpipes must lie behind a lot of the pulse and drive in today's Scottish music. Though I can imagine some of the fiddle pioneers of the past wanting to emancipate themselves from all that in a search to create a music of more graciousness and elegance.
Don't get me wrong - I love the GHB (played well).
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by nicholas
Re: Scottish Music
I wish I could remember who it was who first made that diddley/diddly distinction. Genius. Was it you LowWhistler?
# Posted on July 23rd 2009 by ...
Re: Scottish Music
I tend to think of scottish dance music as 'two handed drumming' music (if any percussion) and have wondered wonder thats a pipe band influence.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by David50
Re: Scottish Music
have wonder if thats - doh
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by David50
Re: Scottish Music
i give up
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by David50
Re: Scottish Music
A lot of Scottish pipe tunes will employ the Dorian mode - in particular E dorian - often in later parts of tunes in D. For example:
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/7335
where the 3rd part shifts into E dorian much the same way as in the Paddy O'Brien Tune, The Antrim Rose.
The Highland Pipe scale is G A B C# D E F# G A. In other words it has all the notes of a D scale but instead runs from G to A. There are some great Highland Pipe tunes in G that make good use of that low G (and by necessity avoid the Cnat).
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Scottish Music
If you can take a listen to Tich Frier's version of Jim Malcolm's "Lochanside" thats Tradditional tune with words from one of Scotlands leading singer songwriters
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by cheerydavie
Re: Scottish Music
I wish I had first made that distinction, but I can't claim credit for that one...
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by Pat Mustard
Re: Scottish Music
"The war music of the Highland Bagpipes must lie behind a lot of the pulse and drive in today's Scottish music" - to be honest Nicholas most of the military music from the pipes is marches of different types. The drive you hear at Scottish sessions is just the way the tunes have evolved from dancing. Ceilidh dancing (areas where pipes are more prominent) is a lot more vigorous and less formal than Scottish Country Dance and pipe tunes are much more common in Ceilidh than SCD.
The only dynamic in pipe music is the ornaments so subtlety in very low in the list of priorities with the instrument, it just seems to have pulled other instruments with it.
The snare drum though....even though I played drums in ceilidh bands as a teenager I hate the thing with a passion. Totally makes an @rse of Scottish dance music IMO.
# Posted on July 24th 2009 by bogman
Re: Scottish Music
The swing and the snap of Scots music is truly unique. If you are interested, I would suggest the strathspey "the Sweetness of Mary' as a good starting point. It is usually played at a nice relaxed pace, so it is a good first strathspey. Google the name, and listen to folks like Aly Bain and Alisdair Fraser as they approach the tune. Look at the dots posted here on The Session. Notice all the long-short note pairs, and the surprising short-long of the scottish snaps when they appear. As you play the tune yourself, you will begin to appreciate the differences between the swing of Scots music, and more flowing nature of the Irish approach.
And as many above have said, go to the roots players and solo recordings, not the flashy young groups. They all tend toward a pan-national style that mixes together a lot of influences.
# Posted on July 25th 2009 by AlBrown