Please forgive my ignorance but I have never played a whistle. Recently someone asked me if playing the whistle was anything like playing a recorder. Beside the obvious it being a wind instrument. He is 15 and plays clarinet with the school band and recorder and clarinet with the school orchestra. I guess he is asking about fingering and maybe embrochure(?)
If he is any good on recorder and clarinet, whistle will be a breeze for him. I gave my clarinet-playing niece and nephews whistles, and they were able to play tunes immediately.
No thumb hole at the back, and therefore no irritating pinching the hole to get upper octave notes.
No 'double' holes to get in-between notes (recorder has this on low D and low C). Less available chromatic notes on the whistle, but you can get around this by purchasing ones in other keys. The recorder can get most of these notes with cross-fingering or using the double holes.
The whistle sounds 100 times better than the recorder, with about the same amount of breath. That said, all wind instruments need good diaphragm control to sound good - whistle no exception.
Embrouchure no different - just poke it in your mouth and blow into it!
Total worlds of difference. Just about everthing you could talk about; the sound, the fingering, the history, place, time and style.
This is not to say you can't use a recorder to play ITM but it just don't sound right - well, not to my ears anyway.
Best advice, as per usual - get out there and listen, listen, listen.
That being said, it also depends on how talented the musician is! I seem to remember a mighty set of reels being played on an alto sax...
Sound and style, sure--but I believe the basic fingering is exactly the same for tinwhistle and soprano recorder, except that the latter has the thumb hole.
hmm, lets see. There's no thumb hole on the back of a whistle (obviously) and on a recorder it's much harder (for me at least) to play higher octaves. The fingering can be quite different and I think that, depending on the key of the whistle, the C's aren't sharp on a recorder.
Some whistle makers *do* offer an option for a thumb hole on the back, to produce a stronger, better intonated c natural.
I've seen several people transition from recorder to whistle with no problems at all. And clarinetists typically enjoy the relative simplicity and portability of a penny whistle.
It's easy to play tunes on whistle if you are aleady a decent
recorder or woodwind. But it is still very hard to make the tunes
sound right - finding the right rhythmic grooves and phrasing.
And that's before we start talking about ornamentation and melodic variation. The good part is that you can focus on these
stylistic points right away and not worry about the technique.
By far the biggest difference betwen recorder and whistle playing is the articulation. The slight differences with the fingering pale into insignificance compared to this.
The best advice to a recorder or other wood wind player who is first picking up a tin whistle is to loose the tongue completely. I'm not saying that good whistle playing has no tongueing, of course not. But a classical woodwind player's temptation to tongue every note is too great. If you make them loose the tongue completely it forces them to explore/discover/learn the myriad of other articulations available. Only when they are comfortable with the other articulations should they be allowed to bring the tongue back in.
It's the same with classical fiddle players. Make them to play whole swathes of tunes with one bow stroke, it forces them to explore/discover/learn the myriad of other articulations available.
I would second the post about tonguing. I learned recorder from my primary school teacher and was taught to tongue every note. I took up the whistle last year and find that tonguing is a really hard habit to break. I have to concentrate hard on not doing it, and when I'm learning something new I tend to tongue without thinking - because I'm concentrating on other things.
Interestingly, a colleague had recorder lessons from a professional music teacher and says she was taught to slur most notes and only tongue for effect - so perhaps I just had a bad teacher.
Playing the whistle, or recorder, isn't quite as much unlike playing the recorder, or whistle, as it wouldn't be if it weren't any less similar, or is it the other way round, or not.
I know I have.
I bring my valise to a standstill, or rest my case.
Ilig and Fiona are bang on about the tonguing issue.
People coming to Irish music from classical/pop music, from the Boehm flute and/or recorder to the Irish flute and/or whistle, do have the tendency to tongue every note.
Actually the way Irish tunes are written does indicate this: in the "real" music world, noteheads which are written without ties slurring them together are supposed to be seperated by tonguing.
So part of the problem, a part that trad Irish musicians usually aren't aware of, is that the written music isn't written correctly, isn't written in such a way that it indicates how the tunes should be played.
So, a good "classical" player with a good ear, if they learn Irish tunes by ear and you don't show them any written music, will get the articulation more or less correct.
The tendency to tongue every note is actually only a symptom of the underlying issue, which is how individual notes are regarded. In "classical" music each note is a complete entity unto itself, a perfect pearlescent creation with an "attack", a "core", and a "decay".
Trad Irish music couldn't be more different. Individual notes have little value. They exist as part of a stream and often have no attack or decay. They have so little value in fact that they can be switched to other notes at whim, or left out altogether when a breath is to be taken.
But this is perhaps an altogether different issue than the OP was raising. Anyone who plays clarinet and recorder will have very little difficulty transitioning onto the whistle. They of course will have to pick up a new style along with the new tunes.
"The written music isn't written correctly, it isn't written in such a way that it indicates how the tunes should be played."
What do you think the chances are that Jeremy could put that in big letters at the start of the tunes section here?
Richard D Cook:
“The tendency to tongue every note is actually only a symptom of the underlying issue, which is how individual notes are regarded. In ‘classical’ music each note is a complete entity unto itself, a perfect pearlescent creation with an ‘attack’, a ‘core’, and a ‘decay’.
Trad Irish music couldn't be more different. Individual notes have little value. They exist as part of a stream and often have no attack or decay. They have so little value in fact that they can be switched to other notes at whim, or left out altogether when a breath is to be taken.”
Well put, Richard.
There’s a lot of whistle tonguing in the early ITM recordings, so we can’t say it’s not traditional, but I’m glad we’ve moved beyond it.
When I first learned whistle there was alot of emphesis on tonguing.
But at least recorder gives a great 'running start' on the mechanics. The bigger issue is to listen to good players because they are different instruments from an expression standpoint
Tonguing - No, you don't tongue every note. Neither is tonguing unused. Tonguing is used for phrasing and emphasis.
Recorder in ITM ? O MyGAWD ! In the nicest, most constructive manner possible, listen to Mary Bergin playing whistle...Incidentaly, on her "Feadoga Stain" (Irish for "Tin Whistles") you can hear her tonguing quite clearly - as I say, for phrasing and emphasis.
maxF: I don't think Generation have done the leaflet since the mid-80s. It was dispayed with the whistles in a rack. Maybe it cost a few pence (no-one would want more than one !).
One useful technique that it did mention was venting air through the nose whilst playing to be able to reduce the tendency to overblow. Not something you often see talked about in beginners instructions.
I never said that the tongue shouldn't be used: "I'm not saying that good whistle playing has no tonguing, of course not."
Of course tonguing is used for phrasing and emphasis. But the best way to realise this if you are used to tonguing every note is to strip it all out and start from scratch. Learn what else helps your phrasing and emphasis. Then gradually bring the tongue back in. This way, you are making a conscious decision as to where it is useful. Much easier than trying to make conscious decisions about where it's not useful.
I disagree with Mr Knoss's earlier comments - I think it depends entirely on the player and the musician.
A good strong player who can make the music flow, on a good strong recorder, is no different from a good player on a wooden feadog.
I'll tell my friend Sarah on him, she can come round and give him a blast of her technique on the recorder. He will be amazed !
Pete, every recorder I'e ever heard playing Irish music sounds wrong because of the inherent tone of recorders. Good wood whistles still have chiff, and recorders don't. Makes all the difference in the world. To me at least.
I studied baroque recorder for years and found learning the nuances extremely time consuming. In January I switched to the whistle because of its charm and expressability ( is that a word?) Anyway, I find it offers many more nuances and is actually much more time consuming in learning than the recorder. Maybe I just like it more.
i think it should also be noted that in whistle playing, the toungue is also used to restrict or expand air flow without actually interrupting it, as when changing octaves and in certain articulations of triplets or rolls- i don't know much about recorder playing.
Interesting that some folk have indicated here that if you play recorder or clarinet then you merely pop the whistle in your gob and of you go. That's obviously not the case. Playing a tune on the whistle is very simple, making it work for trad is another thing. The phrasing, articulation, tone, tuning and most importantly knowledge of the music you're playing are the most important things. None of it is that difficult but they are techniques specific to the genre.
I also think there is often too much tonguing on the whistle. Everyone has different tastes with this though so there's no right or wrong. Good tip though, if you are not using a microphone then more tonguing than usual on the lower notes can help them be heard, or more distinguishable in a session.
Bogman, I agree with you. Whistle is easier to get started on, but just as challenging as any other instrument to master.
I remember I had a book and tape when I first started the whistle, it taught the notes, technique, how to tongue, and then, toward the end, said 'here are the Irish tunes, be sure to stop all that tonguing!'
. . . switch notes at whim ~ I could open up a can of worms if I chose. Or should I say noodles. just kidding!
I do understand, now, why the anti tongue faction is so adamant. It is another instance of *unlearning* past training. Then again part of playing the tunes is variation. Listen to some good whistler's & learn from what you hear.
Mary, if you play a bit of whistle you might begin to answer some more questions concerning the tunes.
Whistle question
Whistle question
Please forgive my ignorance but I have never played a whistle. Recently someone asked me if playing the whistle was anything like playing a recorder. Beside the obvious it being a wind instrument. He is 15 and plays clarinet with the school band and recorder and clarinet with the school orchestra. I guess he is asking about fingering and maybe embrochure(?)
Thanks
Mary
# Posted on July 19th 2009 by Antikhntr
Re: Whistle question
If he is any good on recorder and clarinet, whistle will be a breeze for him. I gave my clarinet-playing niece and nephews whistles, and they were able to play tunes immediately.
# Posted on July 20th 2009 by tuckered out
Re: Whistle question
No thumb hole at the back, and therefore no irritating pinching the hole to get upper octave notes.
No 'double' holes to get in-between notes (recorder has this on low D and low C). Less available chromatic notes on the whistle, but you can get around this by purchasing ones in other keys. The recorder can get most of these notes with cross-fingering or using the double holes.
The whistle sounds 100 times better than the recorder, with about the same amount of breath. That said, all wind instruments need good diaphragm control to sound good - whistle no exception.
Embrouchure no different - just poke it in your mouth and blow into it!
# Posted on July 20th 2009 by Bredna
Re: Whistle question
Total worlds of difference. Just about everthing you could talk about; the sound, the fingering, the history, place, time and style.
This is not to say you can't use a recorder to play ITM but it just don't sound right - well, not to my ears anyway.
Best advice, as per usual - get out there and listen, listen, listen.
That being said, it also depends on how talented the musician is! I seem to remember a mighty set of reels being played on an alto sax...
# Posted on July 20th 2009 by john knoss
Re: Whistle question
Sound and style, sure--but I believe the basic fingering is exactly the same for tinwhistle and soprano recorder, except that the latter has the thumb hole.
# Posted on July 20th 2009 by tuckered out
Re: Whistle question
The whistle doesn't have that little pinky piece that you can use on a recorder.
# Posted on July 20th 2009 by The Whistle Collector
Re: Whistle question
Thanks, I'll pass this onto him. He's an awesome musician,
I'm sure he will do OK and have lots of fun with it.
Mary
# Posted on July 20th 2009 by Antikhntr
Re: Whistle question
Tell him he should check out this guy's clips on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/user/RyanDunsSJ
# Posted on July 20th 2009 by tuckered out
Re: Whistle question
hmm, lets see. There's no thumb hole on the back of a whistle (obviously) and on a recorder it's much harder (for me at least) to play higher octaves. The fingering can be quite different and I think that, depending on the key of the whistle, the C's aren't sharp on a recorder.
# Posted on July 20th 2009 by ScotiaBalach
Re: Whistle question
Some whistle makers *do* offer an option for a thumb hole on the back, to produce a stronger, better intonated c natural.
I've seen several people transition from recorder to whistle with no problems at all. And clarinetists typically enjoy the relative simplicity and portability of a penny whistle.
# Posted on July 20th 2009 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Whistle question
Different fingering for F and Fsharp I seem to recall. But probably no more different than Boehm flute/wooden flute.
# Posted on July 20th 2009 by disillusioned
Re: Whistle question
It's easy to play tunes on whistle if you are aleady a decent
recorder or woodwind. But it is still very hard to make the tunes
sound right - finding the right rhythmic grooves and phrasing.
And that's before we start talking about ornamentation and melodic variation. The good part is that you can focus on these
stylistic points right away and not worry about the technique.
# Posted on July 20th 2009 by Hup
Re: Whistle question
By far the biggest difference betwen recorder and whistle playing is the articulation. The slight differences with the fingering pale into insignificance compared to this.
The best advice to a recorder or other wood wind player who is first picking up a tin whistle is to loose the tongue completely. I'm not saying that good whistle playing has no tongueing, of course not. But a classical woodwind player's temptation to tongue every note is too great. If you make them loose the tongue completely it forces them to explore/discover/learn the myriad of other articulations available. Only when they are comfortable with the other articulations should they be allowed to bring the tongue back in.
It's the same with classical fiddle players. Make them to play whole swathes of tunes with one bow stroke, it forces them to explore/discover/learn the myriad of other articulations available.
# Posted on July 20th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Whistle question
I would second the post about tonguing. I learned recorder from my primary school teacher and was taught to tongue every note. I took up the whistle last year and find that tonguing is a really hard habit to break. I have to concentrate hard on not doing it, and when I'm learning something new I tend to tongue without thinking - because I'm concentrating on other things.
Interestingly, a colleague had recorder lessons from a professional music teacher and says she was taught to slur most notes and only tongue for effect - so perhaps I just had a bad teacher.
# Posted on July 20th 2009 by Fiona A
Re: Whistle question
Playing the whistle, or recorder, isn't quite as much unlike playing the recorder, or whistle, as it wouldn't be if it weren't any less similar, or is it the other way round, or not.
I know I have.
I bring my valise to a standstill, or rest my case.
# Posted on July 20th 2009 by maxF
Re: Whistle question
Ilig and Fiona are bang on about the tonguing issue.
People coming to Irish music from classical/pop music, from the Boehm flute and/or recorder to the Irish flute and/or whistle, do have the tendency to tongue every note.
Actually the way Irish tunes are written does indicate this: in the "real" music world, noteheads which are written without ties slurring them together are supposed to be seperated by tonguing.
So part of the problem, a part that trad Irish musicians usually aren't aware of, is that the written music isn't written correctly, isn't written in such a way that it indicates how the tunes should be played.
So, a good "classical" player with a good ear, if they learn Irish tunes by ear and you don't show them any written music, will get the articulation more or less correct.
The tendency to tongue every note is actually only a symptom of the underlying issue, which is how individual notes are regarded. In "classical" music each note is a complete entity unto itself, a perfect pearlescent creation with an "attack", a "core", and a "decay".
Trad Irish music couldn't be more different. Individual notes have little value. They exist as part of a stream and often have no attack or decay. They have so little value in fact that they can be switched to other notes at whim, or left out altogether when a breath is to be taken.
But this is perhaps an altogether different issue than the OP was raising. Anyone who plays clarinet and recorder will have very little difficulty transitioning onto the whistle. They of course will have to pick up a new style along with the new tunes.
# Posted on July 20th 2009 by Richard D Cook
Re: Whistle question
"The written music isn't written correctly, it isn't written in such a way that it indicates how the tunes should be played."
What do you think the chances are that Jeremy could put that in big letters at the start of the tunes section here?
# Posted on July 20th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Whistle question
Richard D Cook:
“The tendency to tongue every note is actually only a symptom of the underlying issue, which is how individual notes are regarded. In ‘classical’ music each note is a complete entity unto itself, a perfect pearlescent creation with an ‘attack’, a ‘core’, and a ‘decay’.
Trad Irish music couldn't be more different. Individual notes have little value. They exist as part of a stream and often have no attack or decay. They have so little value in fact that they can be switched to other notes at whim, or left out altogether when a breath is to be taken.”
Well put, Richard.
There’s a lot of whistle tonguing in the early ITM recordings, so we can’t say it’s not traditional, but I’m glad we’ve moved beyond it.
# Posted on July 20th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Whistle question
Funny
When I first learned whistle there was alot of emphesis on tonguing.
But at least recorder gives a great 'running start' on the mechanics. The bigger issue is to listen to good players because they are different instruments from an expression standpoint
# Posted on July 20th 2009 by zippydw
Re: Whistle question
The little leaflet that used to come with Generation whistles said you should tongue - but it also had a little picture of a conical whistle !
# Posted on July 20th 2009 by david_h
Re: Whistle question
Tonguing - No, you don't tongue every note. Neither is tonguing unused. Tonguing is used for phrasing and emphasis.
Recorder in ITM ? O MyGAWD ! In the nicest, most constructive manner possible, listen to Mary Bergin playing whistle...Incidentaly, on her "Feadoga Stain" (Irish for "Tin Whistles") you can hear her tonguing quite clearly - as I say, for phrasing and emphasis.
# Posted on July 20th 2009 by Sean Lead Liath
Re: Whistle question
Finger trouble tonight - that should of course have been "Incidentally"
# Posted on July 20th 2009 by Sean Lead Liath
Re: Whistle question
David - I never got a leaflet with any of the generations I've bought. Huh.
# Posted on July 20th 2009 by maxF
Re: Whistle question
I have gotten very little sound from the generations I purchased..... who cares about the pamphlet.
Unless it is about fipple correction techniques.
# Posted on July 20th 2009 by zippydw
Re: Whistle question
maxF: I don't think Generation have done the leaflet since the mid-80s. It was dispayed with the whistles in a rack. Maybe it cost a few pence (no-one would want more than one !).
One useful technique that it did mention was venting air through the nose whilst playing to be able to reduce the tendency to overblow. Not something you often see talked about in beginners instructions.
# Posted on July 20th 2009 by david_h
Re: Whistle question
I never said that the tongue shouldn't be used: "I'm not saying that good whistle playing has no tonguing, of course not."
Of course tonguing is used for phrasing and emphasis. But the best way to realise this if you are used to tonguing every note is to strip it all out and start from scratch. Learn what else helps your phrasing and emphasis. Then gradually bring the tongue back in. This way, you are making a conscious decision as to where it is useful. Much easier than trying to make conscious decisions about where it's not useful.
# Posted on July 20th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Whistle question
I disagree with Mr Knoss's earlier comments - I think it depends entirely on the player and the musician.
A good strong player who can make the music flow, on a good strong recorder, is no different from a good player on a wooden feadog.
I'll tell my friend Sarah on him, she can come round and give him a blast of her technique on the recorder. He will be amazed !
# Posted on July 20th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Whistle question
Pete, every recorder I'e ever heard playing Irish music sounds wrong because of the inherent tone of recorders. Good wood whistles still have chiff, and recorders don't. Makes all the difference in the world. To me at least.
# Posted on July 20th 2009 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Whistle question
I studied baroque recorder for years and found learning the nuances extremely time consuming. In January I switched to the whistle because of its charm and expressability ( is that a word?) Anyway, I find it offers many more nuances and is actually much more time consuming in learning than the recorder. Maybe I just like it more.
# Posted on July 21st 2009 by nuwhistler
Re: Whistle question
i think it should also be noted that in whistle playing, the toungue is also used to restrict or expand air flow without actually interrupting it, as when changing octaves and in certain articulations of triplets or rolls- i don't know much about recorder playing.
# Posted on July 21st 2009 by pipewatcher
Re: Whistle question
"in whistle playing the tongue is also used to restrict or expand air flow..."
That's interesting. If I'm doing this, I'm not aware of it.
It sure wouldn't be the first time that musicians did something that they themselves weren't aware of.
# Posted on July 28th 2009 by Richard D Cook
Re: Whistle question
Interesting that some folk have indicated here that if you play recorder or clarinet then you merely pop the whistle in your gob and of you go. That's obviously not the case. Playing a tune on the whistle is very simple, making it work for trad is another thing. The phrasing, articulation, tone, tuning and most importantly knowledge of the music you're playing are the most important things. None of it is that difficult but they are techniques specific to the genre.
I also think there is often too much tonguing on the whistle. Everyone has different tastes with this though so there's no right or wrong. Good tip though, if you are not using a microphone then more tonguing than usual on the lower notes can help them be heard, or more distinguishable in a session.
# Posted on July 28th 2009 by bogman
Re: Whistle question
Bogman, I agree with you. Whistle is easier to get started on, but just as challenging as any other instrument to master.
I remember I had a book and tape when I first started the whistle, it taught the notes, technique, how to tongue, and then, toward the end, said 'here are the Irish tunes, be sure to stop all that tonguing!'
# Posted on July 28th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: Whistle question
. . . switch notes at whim ~ I could open up a can of worms if I chose. Or should I say noodles. just kidding!
I do understand, now, why the anti tongue faction is so adamant. It is another instance of *unlearning* past training. Then again part of playing the tunes is variation. Listen to some good whistler's & learn from what you hear.
Mary, if you play a bit of whistle you might begin to answer some more questions concerning the tunes.
# Posted on July 28th 2009 by Random_notes