a shim being a thin piece of solid that you place under the nut or bridge of your guitar etc to raise the action slightly.
often used by amateur luthiers after they've sanded a little too much off that nut or bridge......
i'm interested in what people use to make bodge shims.
obviously shims have to be hard and thin, and workable/shapable
i have used in the past; bit of wood, chopped up credit cards, slivers of cassette cases, bits of beer cans.
the problem is; for really pedantic action tweaking, a shim should be really really thin. eg credit cards are too thick.
the only thing ive found that seems to work well are DVD-R discs (!). if you jam a blade into the edge of these (the ones i use at least) the disc splits in two, each wafer is about 0.5mm thick, and is easy to cut to size with a craft knife.
even these are too thick for my purposes. also i'm not sure if plastic is a good idea from an acoustic perspective..
Would a thin plectrum work, cut into strips? I have various plectra here from .43mm to 2mm, and I see from my suppliers catalogue that they go down in size to .38mm.
What about wooden stirrers from Starbucks? They don't start that thick, and you can use fine sandpaper to sand them fairly thin. Also, you could use two at a time if you need to fine tune a height.
There's actually a product called.........wait for it............shim material !!! Basically thin sheets of brass,rolled to specific thicknesses... .010" and the like...
Try a modellers supply shop for these..Here in OZ they have a 'variety' pack containing 4 or so different thicknesses in 6 " x 6 " sheets...These can be cut with scissors...
Hope this is of help....
All of the above (except for beermats) are quite acceptable. there is also baking paper alfoil, veneer (one of my favourites) and there are many other locations that appreciate a bit of shimming as well. As long as it is dense enough and the right thickness.
Can't wait for for the experts to turn up to tell us what Stradivari wouldn't have done.
Old saxophone reeds, split cane left over from reed-making, plastic plant-labels (hard plastic) copper sheet from an old water tank, and the old faithful, cigarette packets. Acoustic propeties should be taken into account, as soft or spongy materials like beer mats will act as a damper, as well as squeezing out of shape after a while. Hard materials like brass and hard plastics will filter frequencies at different levels. Massive materials, meaning materials with high mass, act as barriers rather than conducters. But the thickness of the shim usually means that the effects are minimal.
thanks, gam.
The question mark was in hopes someone, yourself,
would be kind enough to explain why not.
Personally, I would tend to use the dropoff from a rip on my tablesaw.
But then I'm a woodworker not an instrument repairer.
I always have lots of little bits of wood.
I cut three bridges for my guitar for low, medium, and high action. No shim needed.
Here in the arid back of beyond, the most common cause of lowering action is lack of humidity--the top dries out and flattens. A shim addresses the symptom, not the root of the problem. Nine times out of ten, proper humidification brings the top--and the string action--back to the desired state.
For a really thin shim possibly mylar (I have an old banjo head to cut up for such purposes and for replacing valves on harmonicas). I took enormous care making a bone nut for a strat and then overcut one of the slots (stupid me) but no shim needed - I just filled the slot with superglue and bone dust and cut it again - worked a treat. Here's a tip for cutting slots in nuts - put a feeler gauge (used for car points) under the strings set to the right thickness and do one slot at a time, carefully sloping the cut away from the fingerboard. I've done a few of these and seem to be getting the hang of it. New guitars always seem to be painfully high at the nut.
LOL, what's the point of upgrading to a bone nut and then filling the overcut slot with superglue? Why not just overcut all your slots on your old nut (whatever material it was) and fill them all with superglue?
Or really get to the heart of it and mold a nut entirely out of superglue. I'm sure all the guitar gods will beat a path to your door....
(silly or tragic? I suppose it depends on whether you know what to listen for and prize good tone from your guitar)
You need material that transmits vibrations to the bridge without muting. It needs to make full flat contact with the saddle and with the bridge. Paper, soft woods, etc. are usually very poor for this. I've used brass, ebony, etc. but It is always worth considering a new bone saddle instead of shimming.
Will: I did spend ages on it and everything was right about it apart from one careless overcut. I know superglue caused such a wonderful debate recently, so my mention of it was partly being devil's advocate - so I'm pleased it caused you "lots of laughs" (are you 12 or something?) - but YOUR tone prompts me to hope the laughing made you choke on whatever beverage you might currently be imbibing! I don't think the tiniest touch of superglue will bother this particular (electric) guitar which I've enjoyed owning for about 30 years.
Yes Richard, I'm 12, but as a jack russell terrier, that makes me 84, and I'm still fond of laughing out loud, though at this point I'm also rolling on the floor as I do it.
Silly me to question why anyone would put "ages" into crafting a bone nut if not for the tone. And since superglue has the same tonal qualities as bone (ROFLMAO), then simply fill the original nut with the goo and file new grooves.
I want to lower the saddle on a new acoustic guitar, but as it has a nicely compensated bone saddle on it, I won't mess with it but make another one (out of bone) - then I can always put the old one back. Tusq sounds intriguing - or how about mammoth: http://www.maurysmusic.com/fossilized_mammoth_ivory_saddle___todd_s_review
I think the "ages" was for the improvement in tone, but it wasn't such an improvement in the end that wanted to start all over. Maybe if it needs another one in 30 years time I'll be more careful (I'll be 91 though, so my guitar whiddling days might have ended!)
You'll be pleased to hear that I don't take it down the session - I hardly ever play it as I'm a fiddle and mandolin addict now. But I was looking for a nice acoustic all solid wood guitar without breaking the bank, and I bought a Guild GAD-50. It's a knock-out (for the money) - take a look at the reviews on http://reviews.harmony-central.com/reviews/Acoustic+Guitar/product/Guild/GAD-50/10/1 . It's made in China so I expect this'll offend any Western luthiers reading this, but I just redeemed myself by buying a new USA-made mandolin (that's something else!)
the below is about neck shims, ( something for another thread) but i thought RichardB would find it interesting.
i found it on a electric guitar forum
"Some original 50s Fenders were shimmed using chopped up business cards. If employees left (or were fired) their business cards were useless, so Leo Fender recycled them as neck shims! They used the bit with the Fender logo, consigning the portion with the ex-employees' name and job title to the trash. I've seen quite a few 50s and early 60s Fenders with these shims, so it was a fairly regular practice"
btw thats for all the useful replies everybody.
i like the mylar tip, it definately seems like one worth trying.
and ebony, and brass, and 'shim material' (who'd have thought it ! )
new nuts hmmmm.. perhaps the best idea is a new nut... but ...clue in the title .....i'm asking about shims......
i promise start a new discussion soon, specifically about making new nuts, okay?
I have used wooden inlay strips - particularily ones made out of Ebony. You can use Holly ones if you want white.
Both woods are dense.
These are the inlay strips made specifically for decorating wooden objects - in our case the edges of Guitars, fiddles etc and also sound hole inlay.
They have the advantage of being about .5 mm thick (I haven't actually measured but thats about it) almost exactly the same width as a guitar nut slot and also mandolin bridges.
They become almost invisible when in place when glued to the bottom of a mando bridge and a bit of wood dust rubbed in they ARE invisible.
I know one VERY well known maker that has nearly all his bridges on arched top instruments "shimmed" like this.
I keep bridge sized bits in my mando case(s) and havedone several impromptu repairs on others instruments that raise the action just enough to get rid of that age-old Gibson Mandolin sinkage problem.
I get mine fro Heigham Saw Mills, Heigham St., Noriwch, Norfolk - they supply a lot of instrument grade woods - but I do live nearby. Also a place called Art Veeners in Mildenhall, Suffolk do them - as do many other wood suppliers.
Forgot to mention - I have used the proper Engineers Metal Shim materials before and have been disappointed at the results.
Also the Superglue and dust in nut slots is more prevelant than you might think - I have "cleaned the dirt" out of two different slots in the past - to get the perfect contact! - only to find said "dirt" was in fact the superglue & dust "save" for a slightly over cut bone nut.
One was Fossil Masterdon millions of years old and this particular high-end (£3,000 - £4,0000 minimum per instrument)
couldn't face/be bothered to cut a new one.
shim materials
shim materials
a shim being a thin piece of solid that you place under the nut or bridge of your guitar etc to raise the action slightly.
often used by amateur luthiers after they've sanded a little too much off that nut or bridge......
i'm interested in what people use to make bodge shims.
obviously shims have to be hard and thin, and workable/shapable
i have used in the past; bit of wood, chopped up credit cards, slivers of cassette cases, bits of beer cans.
the problem is; for really pedantic action tweaking, a shim should be really really thin. eg credit cards are too thick.
the only thing ive found that seems to work well are DVD-R discs (!). if you jam a blade into the edge of these (the ones i use at least) the disc splits in two, each wafer is about 0.5mm thick, and is easy to cut to size with a craft knife.
even these are too thick for my purposes. also i'm not sure if plastic is a good idea from an acoustic perspective..
i welcome your shim ideas...
# Posted on July 19th 2009 by rumpole
Re: shim materials
Would a thin plectrum work, cut into strips? I have various plectra here from .43mm to 2mm, and I see from my suppliers catalogue that they go down in size to .38mm.
# Posted on July 19th 2009 by Tony O'Rourke
Re: shim materials
What about wooden stirrers from Starbucks? They don't start that thick, and you can use fine sandpaper to sand them fairly thin. Also, you could use two at a time if you need to fine tune a height.
# Posted on July 19th 2009 by Upsetter
Re: shim materials
I've used paper...doubled, tripled etc until I get the right height
# Posted on July 19th 2009 by shanty
Re: shim materials
There's actually a product called.........wait for it............shim material !!! Basically thin sheets of brass,rolled to specific thicknesses... .010" and the like...
Try a modellers supply shop for these..Here in OZ they have a 'variety' pack containing 4 or so different thicknesses in 6 " x 6 " sheets...These can be cut with scissors...
Hope this is of help....
# Posted on July 19th 2009 by zoukboy
Re: shim materials
beermat?
# Posted on July 19th 2009 by Random_notes
Re: shim materials
The repairer that did some work on my guitar used thin strips shaved from a satay stick i.e. a thin wooden skewer.
# Posted on July 19th 2009 by All Moldy
Re: shim materials
All of the above (except for beermats) are quite acceptable. there is also baking paper alfoil, veneer (one of my favourites) and there are many other locations that appreciate a bit of shimming as well. As long as it is dense enough and the right thickness.
Can't wait for for the experts to turn up to tell us what Stradivari wouldn't have done.
# Posted on July 19th 2009 by mcknowall
Re: shim materials
I've seen cigarette paper being used. Good for many other purposes too e.g. cleaning under the key pads on flutes.
# Posted on July 19th 2009 by john knoss
Re: shim materials
In the past I've used kitchen worktop veneer. Now tend to use thin modelling ply (1/32" or 1/64") sanded to required thickness.
# Posted on July 19th 2009 by DonaldK
Re: shim materials
Old saxophone reeds, split cane left over from reed-making, plastic plant-labels (hard plastic) copper sheet from an old water tank, and the old faithful, cigarette packets. Acoustic propeties should be taken into account, as soft or spongy materials like beer mats will act as a damper, as well as squeezing out of shape after a while. Hard materials like brass and hard plastics will filter frequencies at different levels. Massive materials, meaning materials with high mass, act as barriers rather than conducters. But the thickness of the shim usually means that the effects are minimal.
# Posted on July 19th 2009 by gam
Re: shim materials
Wish I could shimmy like my sister Kate
# Posted on July 19th 2009 by mcknowall
Re: shim materials
thanks, gam.
The question mark was in hopes someone, yourself,
would be kind enough to explain why not.
Personally, I would tend to use the dropoff from a rip on my tablesaw.
But then I'm a woodworker not an instrument repairer.
I always have lots of little bits of wood.
# Posted on July 19th 2009 by Random_notes
Re: shim materials
I cut three bridges for my guitar for low, medium, and high action. No shim needed.
Here in the arid back of beyond, the most common cause of lowering action is lack of humidity--the top dries out and flattens. A shim addresses the symptom, not the root of the problem. Nine times out of ten, proper humidification brings the top--and the string action--back to the desired state.
# Posted on July 19th 2009 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: shim materials
For a really thin shim possibly mylar (I have an old banjo head to cut up for such purposes and for replacing valves on harmonicas). I took enormous care making a bone nut for a strat and then overcut one of the slots (stupid me) but no shim needed - I just filled the slot with superglue and bone dust and cut it again - worked a treat. Here's a tip for cutting slots in nuts - put a feeler gauge (used for car points) under the strings set to the right thickness and do one slot at a time, carefully sloping the cut away from the fingerboard. I've done a few of these and seem to be getting the hang of it. New guitars always seem to be painfully high at the nut.
# Posted on July 19th 2009 by RichardB
Re: shim materials
LOL, what's the point of upgrading to a bone nut and then filling the overcut slot with superglue? Why not just overcut all your slots on your old nut (whatever material it was) and fill them all with superglue?
Or really get to the heart of it and mold a nut entirely out of superglue. I'm sure all the guitar gods will beat a path to your door....
(silly or tragic? I suppose it depends on whether you know what to listen for and prize good tone from your guitar)
# Posted on July 19th 2009 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: shim materials
You need material that transmits vibrations to the bridge without muting. It needs to make full flat contact with the saddle and with the bridge. Paper, soft woods, etc. are usually very poor for this. I've used brass, ebony, etc. but It is always worth considering a new bone saddle instead of shimming.
# Posted on July 19th 2009 by tanp
Re: shim materials
Will: I did spend ages on it and everything was right about it apart from one careless overcut. I know superglue caused such a wonderful debate recently, so my mention of it was partly being devil's advocate - so I'm pleased it caused you "lots of laughs" (are you 12 or something?) - but YOUR tone prompts me to hope the laughing made you choke on whatever beverage you might currently be imbibing! I don't think the tiniest touch of superglue will bother this particular (electric) guitar which I've enjoyed owning for about 30 years.
# Posted on July 19th 2009 by RichardB
Re: shim materials
I'm with tanp.
A new saddle in bone (or tusq) is the best choice.
# Posted on July 19th 2009 by Sergio Corriero
Re: shim materials
Yes Richard, I'm 12, but as a jack russell terrier, that makes me 84, and I'm still fond of laughing out loud, though at this point I'm also rolling on the floor as I do it.
Silly me to question why anyone would put "ages" into crafting a bone nut if not for the tone. And since superglue has the same tonal qualities as bone (ROFLMAO), then simply fill the original nut with the goo and file new grooves.
Excuse me, I'm gonna go chase cats now....
# Posted on July 19th 2009 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: shim materials
I want to lower the saddle on a new acoustic guitar, but as it has a nicely compensated bone saddle on it, I won't mess with it but make another one (out of bone) - then I can always put the old one back. Tusq sounds intriguing - or how about mammoth: http://www.maurysmusic.com/fossilized_mammoth_ivory_saddle___todd_s_review
# Posted on July 19th 2009 by RichardB
Re: shim materials
I think the "ages" was for the improvement in tone, but it wasn't such an improvement in the end that wanted to start all over. Maybe if it needs another one in 30 years time I'll be more careful (I'll be 91 though, so my guitar whiddling days might have ended!)
# Posted on July 19th 2009 by RichardB
Re: shim materials
...I think the spelling for that should have been "widdling", though whiddling might be more appropriate!
# Posted on July 19th 2009 by RichardB
Re: shim materials
I can understand that, especially on a Strat--you can simply crank the distortion and not worry about the nut at all, eh?
# Posted on July 19th 2009 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: shim materials
You'll be pleased to hear that I don't take it down the session - I hardly ever play it as I'm a fiddle and mandolin addict now. But I was looking for a nice acoustic all solid wood guitar without breaking the bank, and I bought a Guild GAD-50. It's a knock-out (for the money) - take a look at the reviews on http://reviews.harmony-central.com/reviews/Acoustic+Guitar/product/Guild/GAD-50/10/1 . It's made in China so I expect this'll offend any Western luthiers reading this, but I just redeemed myself by buying a new USA-made mandolin (that's something else!)
# Posted on July 19th 2009 by RichardB
Re: shim materials
My first guitar was a Guild (D35). Fond memories. Nothing inherently wrong with instruments made in China.
So what mandolin did you buy?
# Posted on July 19th 2009 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: shim materials
How about "whittling"?
# Posted on July 19th 2009 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: shim materials
the below is about neck shims, ( something for another thread) but i thought RichardB would find it interesting.
i found it on a electric guitar forum
"Some original 50s Fenders were shimmed using chopped up business cards. If employees left (or were fired) their business cards were useless, so Leo Fender recycled them as neck shims! They used the bit with the Fender logo, consigning the portion with the ex-employees' name and job title to the trash. I've seen quite a few 50s and early 60s Fenders with these shims, so it was a fairly regular practice"
# Posted on July 19th 2009 by rumpole
Re: shim materials
btw thats for all the useful replies everybody.
)
i like the mylar tip, it definately seems like one worth trying.
and ebony, and brass, and 'shim material' (who'd have thought it !
new nuts hmmmm.. perhaps the best idea is a new nut... but ...clue in the title .....i'm asking about shims......
i promise start a new discussion soon, specifically about making new nuts, okay?
# Posted on July 19th 2009 by rumpole
Re: shim materials
could do with a coupla new nuts
# Posted on July 20th 2009 by mcknowall
Re: shim materials
Will: a Gibson A-9. I'm happy!
# Posted on July 20th 2009 by RichardB
Re: shim materials
Ah, enjoy that Gibson. Good on you!
# Posted on July 20th 2009 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: shim materials
I have used wooden inlay strips - particularily ones made out of Ebony. You can use Holly ones if you want white.
Both woods are dense.
These are the inlay strips made specifically for decorating wooden objects - in our case the edges of Guitars, fiddles etc and also sound hole inlay.
They have the advantage of being about .5 mm thick (I haven't actually measured but thats about it) almost exactly the same width as a guitar nut slot and also mandolin bridges.
They become almost invisible when in place when glued to the bottom of a mando bridge and a bit of wood dust rubbed in they ARE invisible.
I know one VERY well known maker that has nearly all his bridges on arched top instruments "shimmed" like this.
I keep bridge sized bits in my mando case(s) and havedone several impromptu repairs on others instruments that raise the action just enough to get rid of that age-old Gibson Mandolin sinkage problem.
I get mine fro Heigham Saw Mills, Heigham St., Noriwch, Norfolk - they supply a lot of instrument grade woods - but I do live nearby. Also a place called Art Veeners in Mildenhall, Suffolk do them - as do many other wood suppliers.
# Posted on August 4th 2009 by UKCITTERN
Re: shim materials
Forgot to mention - I have used the proper Engineers Metal Shim materials before and have been disappointed at the results.
Also the Superglue and dust in nut slots is more prevelant than you might think - I have "cleaned the dirt" out of two different slots in the past - to get the perfect contact! - only to find said "dirt" was in fact the superglue & dust "save" for a slightly over cut bone nut.
One was Fossil Masterdon millions of years old and this particular high-end (£3,000 - £4,0000 minimum per instrument)
couldn't face/be bothered to cut a new one.
# Posted on August 4th 2009 by UKCITTERN