I was hoping for some advice on choosing a whistle.
I've been practising on a Generation D and have decided to invest a little more money and buy a more expensive one.
I had my intentions set on a John Sindt whistle, but a girl I was chatting to at a session I was recently at had a John Sindt whistle and when I asked here what she thought of it, she said she liked it, but it was not loud enough to be heard in a session. The session had a box, a fiddle, a flute, a guitar and a bodhran player and when she started playing the whistle (she was playing a flute for most of the session) I could barely hear it and I was sitting next to her.
She recommended a whistle, but couldn't recall the name of it, it's got a black body with silver around the holes, maybe someone on here could kindly advise as to the name of these whistles?
And can any of the whistle players on here recommend a whistle? I know there will be a lot of differing opinions on this, but all are welcome.
I play a Chris Abel and also have a couple of Bleazey's. The Bleazey's are really loud which comes in handy sometimes. I was playing in the Irish session at Chippenham and was the only woodwind on the Friday night, completing with 4 tenor banjos, couple of boxes, and several fiddles, and could still be heard.Both whistles are made of blackwood and are tunable. I would always buy a wooden whistle for the superior tone.
A lot of players use the Susato in sessions because it's one of the loudest whistles out there, and it's relatively inexpensive.
Yes it's true that managing the octaves on a Susato takes a bit of getting used to. But many good session players use Susatos and they do just fine.
I prefer the Burke myself. Burkes come in a narrow-bore model which performs sort of like a Generation but has better tuning and voicing, and a "session" version with a wider bore that gives more volume. I like the Burke "session" because it gives enough volume without having to work as hard as you do on a Susato.
I could be wrong, but it seems to me that the Susato is both louder than the Burke session, and somehow at the same time takes less air.
Burkes and Sindts are really good though. In the hands of someone that can control them, that is.
Volume in a session whistle is overrated. Even if you can't hear yourself, everyone else CAN. Don't let ego and a need for attention lure you into being a shrieky, out of tune pain in the butt to everyone else present.
re the large-bore Susato troubles--maybe the narrower model is easier to push into the upper register. But it's still very loud. I sat next to one at a session, and had to stop playing fiddle during The Roaring Barmaid so I could stick my finger in that ear. Just too piercing.
I now have a couple of Dixons--aluminum and plastic--that I like just fine.
p.s. I started on a Generation (not to imply that I'm an expert whistle player now--I definitely am not) and then tried a Feadog, which did seem louder. But the Feadog was well above concert pitch, and seemed to have a harshness to the tone that I didn't care for. The Dixon aluminum is very sweet, but maybe only a touch louder than the Generation.
In my defense, I have never paid more than 40 dollars (US) for a whistle--the Susato. The Dixon (60 bucks, maybe?) was a gift.
Don't let ego and a need for attention lure you into being a shrieky, out of tune pain in the butt to everyone else present.
# Posted on July 5th 2009 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
The wisest words on this thread by a country mile.
Of course, nobody likes a "shrieky, out of tune pain in the butt."
But I didn't see anything egotistical about the original post, or anything foolish about the other contributions. So I suppose I disagree with the "country mile" part.
also, if you can't hear yourself in a session it is always good too consider why.
Having said this, a tinwhistle does tend to carry. Best to ask some of your session mates about your volume (etc). Most likely you'll get some banter for your question. Hopefully they are willing to help you sound as good as possible.
I wasn't suggesting there was anything egotistical about the original post Forrest, but it's very easy to be out of tune with a whistle and it's a good idea for anyone no matter how long they've been playing to make sure they're contributing to the tunes in a positive way before looking for louder instruments.
"also, if you can't hear yourself in a session it is always good too consider why." Can you elaborate on that Random ? Someone once told me "If you can't hear yourself you are probably in tune"
Not sure if John Sindt can tailor his whistle to individual requirements but I find mine carries clearly and sweetly within a modestly sized session. Have a look at some of the Comhaltas videos to see how many soloists and bands are gruppa ceol them.
Fair play David. You're absolutely correct. When playing in tune with the other players you experience a session which sounds *as one*. It's grand, but, I would not say you *cannot* hear your own instrument.
There is always audible variation between players & between instruments, though it may be subtle. The most obvious, between whistle & fiddle, is the difference of an octave. Between fiddle & flute there are different harmonics, or overtones; whatever you call them. Your point is well taken. When I said you want to be able to hear yourself I was thinking of things which make it difficult (to hear) when playing in session. I did not elaborate because there are many. If I had to pick just one example it probably where I sit. On different occasions I have grabbed a seat only have a guitar, box, or fiddle right in my ear; such that all I could hear was that instrument. On those occasions I fear I played far to loud. I could not hear myself & should have stopped playing altogether. I was new & have now try to find a seat which helps balance the whole sound.
Ciaran, in the original post, could barely hear it (the Sindt whistle) and was sitting next to her. I'm assuming there were only 6 players playing in the session. So one should be able to hear the whistle player. I can only speculate why Ciaran could barely hear the whistle. The only way to really know how well others could hear her would be in front of her: not beside.
Most likely, though, the whistle was not quite loud enough for the session. I have heard this about Sindt whistles. Yet there are some good players who play them just fine in session.
Hope this helps David. Ciaran, I don't believe I'm helping you much. Perhaps you can try playing a few different whistles before making a purchase.
Cheers!
I play a Sindt whistle in a medium-sized and sometimes large session. When played tentatively, I don't hear much chiff from Sindt whistles (that bit of a rough chirp at the attack bit of the note), so they can be a bit difficult to hear. But if you play it like you mean it, then it rings through fine. Sindts can be pushed with a lot of breath, too, without screetching. Another session mate of mine also plays a Sindt and when she's unsure of a tune, I can't really hear her.
My evidence that I'm able to be heard comes from the glances I get across the circle as people adjust tune settings while we play. If you like the sound of a Sindt whistle, I'd recommend getting one and just play it hard.
When our session thins out a bit, I usually play either a Generation or a Feadog, because I get that same chiffy sound without having to push the whistle hard and it keeps my volume more in keeping with the smaller number of players.
Thanks Random. There is also advice on this site from a while back:
Wear a wide brim hat while you are playing to better hear yourself.
# Posted on October 16th 2006 by griffith
My Feadog is very quiet, one of the softest whistles I've heard, and if a session is even medium-sized (say, four or five fiddles and a guitar) it can't be heard by me or anyone else.
I have a nice Generation (they do exist) which is a tad louder. Then next in volume is my "session bore" Burke.
The blaster is the Susato, which I don't like the sound of. Yes the high notes tend to shriek. It only comes out in extreme cases, say if there are three or four accordions, two or three banjos, and a ton of other stuff. That Susato can be heard when there's 30 other players.
About "bore size", the bigger the bore the louder the whistle (all other factors being equal), but the bigger the bore the more difficult the 2nd octave is to produce. Traditional whistles such as Generations have a relatively narrow bore. They have a sweet, easy 2nd octave but an overall lower volume.
If you make the bore bigger and bigger you get a fuller low octave but you get to a point where the 2nd octave cannot be produced at all.
So, all whistles reflect a compromise between fullness in the low octave and sweetness in the 2nd octave. What is the "right" balance is a matter of opinion and varies from player to player and maker to maker.
Alba make nice whistles, but that's just my personal taste. For more informed opinions it is probably worth taking a look at the chiff and fipple whistle forum. Lots of folk have reviewed various whistles there. (Google "chiff and fipple"...)
And having a whistle that is in tune with itself, together with being able to tune it to the session that you're playing in is the most important thing. If you can't hear it yourself then either you're in tune and blending perfectly with the other instruments but are too inexperienced to pick out the sound of your own whistle (unlikely, but playing one deliberate wrong note at some point will quickly tell you if this is so...). More likely is that the acoustics of where you are sitting are not returning any sound to you (you are facing into a big open space with no walls to reflect your sound back at you) or you are sitting between three bodhran players and two banjos. Doesn't mean that everyone else isn't hearing you...
I play a sindt and it's fine in a session in a quiet pub, but a bit too soft for a full and noisy one - recently played a dixon high alloy D and it has good volume, easy to play & clean sound, even on higher notes - this one:
Feadog whistles are now being made without the head permanently glued-on. That makes them tunable. Off the shelf they are usually about 20 cents sharp. Simply move the head up the tube a little to make it flatter (takes a firm grip and twisting action).
If you go for a Sindt or one of the hand-made jobies, remember that you can usually ask the maker for special adjustments such as loudness/softness and hard or flutey tone. With the cheap ones you have to work out how to do that yourself .. not a bad thing really.
Richard D Cook - thanks for the detailed explanation (and everyone else that has contributed)
The Burke whistle looks really nice, but they are just a bit over my budget, I'm already stretching to buy the Sindt at $120.
Although Mozle - you made a very interesting comment about being able to ask the maker to make special adjustments. I might get in touch with Mr J Sindt and ask him a few questions...
But you know, there's no substitue for actually playing the whistles yourself. It's the nice thing about whistles, that compared to other ITM instruments they are extremely inexpensive. (Uilleann pipes are around 4000 to 8000 Euros.)
So buy or try a Burke "narrow bore", a Burke "session bore", a Sindt, a Susato, and see what you think. You can always resell whistles you don't care for on Ebay or whatever.
I sold one Irish flute on Ebay (for around 2000 dollars) and that was enough money to buy an example of most of the leading Low D whistles out there (they usually are around 300 dollars each). I played them all for a while and kept one and sold the rest. It's really the only way to find out what whistle suits you.
I've been playing for 40 years. Ok learn on a cheap one and then go up market. Most of the big bands seem to play Abels. Nuff said, All whistles are different, find one you like that suits you at a good price, but you can't beat wood
Choosing a Whislte
Choosing a Whislte
Hi,
I was hoping for some advice on choosing a whistle.
I've been practising on a Generation D and have decided to invest a little more money and buy a more expensive one.
I had my intentions set on a John Sindt whistle, but a girl I was chatting to at a session I was recently at had a John Sindt whistle and when I asked here what she thought of it, she said she liked it, but it was not loud enough to be heard in a session. The session had a box, a fiddle, a flute, a guitar and a bodhran player and when she started playing the whistle (she was playing a flute for most of the session) I could barely hear it and I was sitting next to her.
She recommended a whistle, but couldn't recall the name of it, it's got a black body with silver around the holes, maybe someone on here could kindly advise as to the name of these whistles?
And can any of the whistle players on here recommend a whistle? I know there will be a lot of differing opinions on this, but all are welcome.
Thanks
Ciaran
# Posted on July 5th 2009 by Ciarán.
Re: Choosing a Whislte
Stick with the Generation and don't get caught up in a habit of acquisition for acquisition's sake.
# Posted on July 5th 2009 by Arthur Nordstrom
Re: Choosing a Whislte
Cheap quiet perfection: Dixon Trad.
Plastic loudness: Susato.
# Posted on July 5th 2009 by Pere
Re: Choosing a Whislte
I'll second the Susato. Best of both worlds--inexpensive and loud.
# Posted on July 5th 2009 by shanty
Re: Choosing a Whislte
I can't recommend the large-bore Susato. You have to push extra hard to get it into the upper register, and the high B is just too painfully loud.
# Posted on July 5th 2009 by John Galt
Re: Choosing a Whislte
I play a Chris Abel and also have a couple of Bleazey's. The Bleazey's are really loud which comes in handy sometimes. I was playing in the Irish session at Chippenham and was the only woodwind on the Friday night, completing with 4 tenor banjos, couple of boxes, and several fiddles, and could still be heard.Both whistles are made of blackwood and are tunable. I would always buy a wooden whistle for the superior tone.
# Posted on July 5th 2009 by ricthewhistle
Re: Choosing a Whislte
A lot of the good players here seem to have Burkes.
# Posted on July 5th 2009 by buttons 'n' whistles
Re: Choosing a Whislte
A lot of players use the Susato in sessions because it's one of the loudest whistles out there, and it's relatively inexpensive.
Yes it's true that managing the octaves on a Susato takes a bit of getting used to. But many good session players use Susatos and they do just fine.
I prefer the Burke myself. Burkes come in a narrow-bore model which performs sort of like a Generation but has better tuning and voicing, and a "session" version with a wider bore that gives more volume. I like the Burke "session" because it gives enough volume without having to work as hard as you do on a Susato.
I could be wrong, but it seems to me that the Susato is both louder than the Burke session, and somehow at the same time takes less air.
# Posted on July 5th 2009 by Richard D Cook
Re: Choosing a Whislte
Dixon Tunables in Delrin.
Stable, nice tone, TUNABLE TUNABLE TUNABLE!!
They even look good, with the brass ferules.
And try the low whistles, too, rather nice whistles from a rather nice dealer.
Good luck.
# Posted on July 5th 2009 by Piece
Re: Choosing a Whislte
Just get a cheapo Feadog or Generation. There's no use in farting around with anything more expensive until you can play one of those.
# Posted on July 5th 2009 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: Choosing a Whislte
Burkes and Sindts are really good though. In the hands of someone that can control them, that is.
Volume in a session whistle is overrated. Even if you can't hear yourself, everyone else CAN. Don't let ego and a need for attention lure you into being a shrieky, out of tune pain in the butt to everyone else present.
# Posted on July 5th 2009 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: Choosing a Whislte
re the large-bore Susato troubles--maybe the narrower model is easier to push into the upper register. But it's still very loud. I sat next to one at a session, and had to stop playing fiddle during The Roaring Barmaid so I could stick my finger in that ear. Just too piercing.
I now have a couple of Dixons--aluminum and plastic--that I like just fine.
# Posted on July 5th 2009 by John Galt
Re: Choosing a Whislte
Thanks for all the comments and recommendations.
Just one question, can some one briefly explain what is meant by bore?
Is it the size of the finger holes or the diameter of the barrel? Or something else?
# Posted on July 5th 2009 by Ciarán.
Re: Choosing a Whislte
I meant the diameter of the barrel.
# Posted on July 5th 2009 by John Galt
Re: Choosing a Whislte
p.s. I started on a Generation (not to imply that I'm an expert whistle player now--I definitely am not) and then tried a Feadog, which did seem louder. But the Feadog was well above concert pitch, and seemed to have a harshness to the tone that I didn't care for. The Dixon aluminum is very sweet, but maybe only a touch louder than the Generation.
In my defense, I have never paid more than 40 dollars (US) for a whistle--the Susato. The Dixon (60 bucks, maybe?) was a gift.
# Posted on July 5th 2009 by John Galt
Re: Choosing a Whislte
Don't let ego and a need for attention lure you into being a shrieky, out of tune pain in the butt to everyone else present.
# Posted on July 5th 2009 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
The wisest words on this thread by a country mile.
# Posted on July 5th 2009 by bogman
Re: Choosing a Whislte
Of course, nobody likes a "shrieky, out of tune pain in the butt."
But I didn't see anything egotistical about the original post, or anything foolish about the other contributions. So I suppose I disagree with the "country mile" part.
# Posted on July 5th 2009 by John Galt
Re: Choosing a Whislte
also, if you can't hear yourself in a session it is always good too consider why.
Having said this, a tinwhistle does tend to carry. Best to ask some of your session mates about your volume (etc). Most likely you'll get some banter for your question. Hopefully they are willing to help you sound as good as possible.
# Posted on July 5th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Choosing a Whislte
I wasn't suggesting there was anything egotistical about the original post Forrest, but it's very easy to be out of tune with a whistle and it's a good idea for anyone no matter how long they've been playing to make sure they're contributing to the tunes in a positive way before looking for louder instruments.
# Posted on July 5th 2009 by bogman
Re: Choosing a Whislte
Absolutely, Bogster, no arguments from me on that. (He said, thinking back to his own rock 'n' roll excesses of yesteryear....)
# Posted on July 5th 2009 by John Galt
Re: Choosing a Whislte
"also, if you can't hear yourself in a session it is always good too consider why." Can you elaborate on that Random ? Someone once told me "If you can't hear yourself you are probably in tune"
# Posted on July 5th 2009 by David50
Re: Choosing a Whislte
Not sure if John Sindt can tailor his whistle to individual requirements but I find mine carries clearly and sweetly within a modestly sized session. Have a look at some of the Comhaltas videos to see how many soloists and bands are gruppa ceol them.
# Posted on July 5th 2009 by deeor
Re: Choosing a Whislte
Fair play David. You're absolutely correct. When playing in tune with the other players you experience a session which sounds *as one*. It's grand, but, I would not say you *cannot* hear your own instrument.
There is always audible variation between players & between instruments, though it may be subtle. The most obvious, between whistle & fiddle, is the difference of an octave. Between fiddle & flute there are different harmonics, or overtones; whatever you call them. Your point is well taken. When I said you want to be able to hear yourself I was thinking of things which make it difficult (to hear) when playing in session. I did not elaborate because there are many. If I had to pick just one example it probably where I sit. On different occasions I have grabbed a seat only have a guitar, box, or fiddle right in my ear; such that all I could hear was that instrument. On those occasions I fear I played far to loud. I could not hear myself & should have stopped playing altogether. I was new & have now try to find a seat which helps balance the whole sound.
Ciaran, in the original post, could barely hear it (the Sindt whistle) and was sitting next to her. I'm assuming there were only 6 players playing in the session. So one should be able to hear the whistle player. I can only speculate why Ciaran could barely hear the whistle. The only way to really know how well others could hear her would be in front of her: not beside.
Most likely, though, the whistle was not quite loud enough for the session. I have heard this about Sindt whistles. Yet there are some good players who play them just fine in session.
Hope this helps David. Ciaran, I don't believe I'm helping you much. Perhaps you can try playing a few different whistles before making a purchase.
Cheers!
# Posted on July 5th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Choosing a Whislte
Try a Syn whistle by Erle Bartlett. It's a wide bore Al whistle with
delrin mouthpiece.
Has an edgy tone right down to low D and wide holes.
This wouldn't be everybody's cup of tea - it gives you that
rock and roll Flook whistle sound.
The upper part of the second octave takes a lot of air.
It's not a good whistle to learn on - you need good breath control.
http://www.ozwhistles.com/shop/Ssyn.php
# Posted on July 6th 2009 by Hup
Re: Choosing a Whislte
I play a Sindt whistle in a medium-sized and sometimes large session. When played tentatively, I don't hear much chiff from Sindt whistles (that bit of a rough chirp at the attack bit of the note), so they can be a bit difficult to hear. But if you play it like you mean it, then it rings through fine. Sindts can be pushed with a lot of breath, too, without screetching. Another session mate of mine also plays a Sindt and when she's unsure of a tune, I can't really hear her.
My evidence that I'm able to be heard comes from the glances I get across the circle as people adjust tune settings while we play. If you like the sound of a Sindt whistle, I'd recommend getting one and just play it hard.
When our session thins out a bit, I usually play either a Generation or a Feadog, because I get that same chiffy sound without having to push the whistle hard and it keeps my volume more in keeping with the smaller number of players.
# Posted on July 6th 2009 by MikeDucayen
Re: Choosing a Whislte
Thanks Random. There is also advice on this site from a while back:
Wear a wide brim hat while you are playing to better hear yourself.
# Posted on October 16th 2006 by griffith
Like this guy maybe ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dzb6p9Woj9I
# Posted on July 6th 2009 by David50
Re: Choosing a Whislte
Stick with the Generation. Tell the guitar player to turn it down a bit and tell the bodhran player to shut up. Problem solved.
# Posted on July 6th 2009 by ...
Re: Choosing a Whislte
Thats one alternative I suppose...
# Posted on July 6th 2009 by Ciarán.
Re: Choosing a Whislte
Ciaran save 190 quid and get a session burke in brass..
# Posted on July 6th 2009 by Dave_
Re: Choosing a Whislte
My Feadog is very quiet, one of the softest whistles I've heard, and if a session is even medium-sized (say, four or five fiddles and a guitar) it can't be heard by me or anyone else.
I have a nice Generation (they do exist) which is a tad louder. Then next in volume is my "session bore" Burke.
The blaster is the Susato, which I don't like the sound of. Yes the high notes tend to shriek. It only comes out in extreme cases, say if there are three or four accordions, two or three banjos, and a ton of other stuff. That Susato can be heard when there's 30 other players.
About "bore size", the bigger the bore the louder the whistle (all other factors being equal), but the bigger the bore the more difficult the 2nd octave is to produce. Traditional whistles such as Generations have a relatively narrow bore. They have a sweet, easy 2nd octave but an overall lower volume.
If you make the bore bigger and bigger you get a fuller low octave but you get to a point where the 2nd octave cannot be produced at all.
So, all whistles reflect a compromise between fullness in the low octave and sweetness in the 2nd octave. What is the "right" balance is a matter of opinion and varies from player to player and maker to maker.
# Posted on July 6th 2009 by Richard D Cook
Re: Choosing a Whislte
Alba make nice whistles, but that's just my personal taste. For more informed opinions it is probably worth taking a look at the chiff and fipple whistle forum. Lots of folk have reviewed various whistles there. (Google "chiff and fipple"...)
And having a whistle that is in tune with itself, together with being able to tune it to the session that you're playing in is the most important thing. If you can't hear it yourself then either you're in tune and blending perfectly with the other instruments but are too inexperienced to pick out the sound of your own whistle (unlikely, but playing one deliberate wrong note at some point will quickly tell you if this is so...). More likely is that the acoustics of where you are sitting are not returning any sound to you (you are facing into a big open space with no walls to reflect your sound back at you) or you are sitting between three bodhran players and two banjos. Doesn't mean that everyone else isn't hearing you...
# Posted on July 6th 2009 by Crackpot
Re: Choosing a Whislte
I would 100% go for a Burke whistle. Fantastic sound and tunable. D whistles can be bought on line for $190 not euro. here's the link to the website
http://www.burkewhistles.com/
# Posted on July 6th 2009 by fineflautist
Re: Choosing a Whislte
I play a sindt and it's fine in a session in a quiet pub, but a bit too soft for a full and noisy one - recently played a dixon high alloy D and it has good volume, easy to play & clean sound, even on higher notes - this one:
http://www.hobgoblin.com/local/GR2354D-p-Dixon-Alloy-High-D-Whistle-Page.htm
# Posted on July 6th 2009 by mikeof
Re: Choosing a Whislte
Most the advice here is good.
Feadog whistles are now being made without the head permanently glued-on. That makes them tunable. Off the shelf they are usually about 20 cents sharp. Simply move the head up the tube a little to make it flatter (takes a firm grip and twisting action).
If you go for a Sindt or one of the hand-made jobies, remember that you can usually ask the maker for special adjustments such as loudness/softness and hard or flutey tone. With the cheap ones you have to work out how to do that yourself .. not a bad thing really.
# Posted on July 7th 2009 by Mozle
Re: Choosing a Whislte
Richard D Cook - thanks for the detailed explanation (and everyone else that has contributed)
The Burke whistle looks really nice, but they are just a bit over my budget, I'm already stretching to buy the Sindt at $120.
Although Mozle - you made a very interesting comment about being able to ask the maker to make special adjustments. I might get in touch with Mr J Sindt and ask him a few questions...
# Posted on July 7th 2009 by Ciarán.
Re: Choosing a Whislte
You're welcome Ciaran.
But you know, there's no substitue for actually playing the whistles yourself. It's the nice thing about whistles, that compared to other ITM instruments they are extremely inexpensive. (Uilleann pipes are around 4000 to 8000 Euros.)
So buy or try a Burke "narrow bore", a Burke "session bore", a Sindt, a Susato, and see what you think. You can always resell whistles you don't care for on Ebay or whatever.
I sold one Irish flute on Ebay (for around 2000 dollars) and that was enough money to buy an example of most of the leading Low D whistles out there (they usually are around 300 dollars each). I played them all for a while and kept one and sold the rest. It's really the only way to find out what whistle suits you.
# Posted on July 7th 2009 by Richard D Cook
Re: Choosing a Whislte
I've been playing for 40 years. Ok learn on a cheap one and then go up market. Most of the big bands seem to play Abels. Nuff said, All whistles are different, find one you like that suits you at a good price, but you can't beat wood
# Posted on July 9th 2009 by ricthewhistle
Re: Choosing a Whislte
Nice the way the fipple on the Feadog is not glued on, so you can shift it a tad relative to the barrel...
# Posted on July 9th 2009 by Arthur Nordstrom
Re: Choosing a Whislte
Ive heard only a few people who can play a Sussato well - Sean Ryan... wait thats just one
# Posted on July 12th 2009 by premier