will a pratten style flute make my hands fall off?
will a pratten style flute make my hands fall off?
hello everyone,
another bl**dy flute based question,
i play low whistle, and want to buy a hoza keyless flute with large bore and toneholes, he says its modelled after a pratten,
people say the pratten style flutes have absurdly big toneholes, but as i play low whistle already i want to ask if the toneholes are bigger on a pratten flute or a low whistle,
i can manage the holes on my kerry low d well enough, but much bigger and i might struggle i reckon,
he also makes a ruddal and rose ish flute, but ive heard they are a lot quieter and the tuning is not so accurate, thats what pushes me towards the pratten style,
any idea anyone?
Re: will a pratten style flute make my hands fall off?
"he also makes a ruddal and rose Irish flute, but ive heard they are a lot quieter and the tuning is not so accurate"
Are you referring specifically to Hoza's R&R flutes?
If you are referring to *all* R&Rs in general, then I'd say you've been misinformed.
"R&R = quieter" and "R&R = weaker bottom 'D"" are misconceptions propagated by people who don't put the time, dedication, and effort into getting a big sound and big bottom 'D' from an R&R.
Don't get me wrong -- I'm not bashing Prattens, et al (P. Olwell's Prattens are among the best and most sought-after flutes ever made). I'm just trying to dispel the widely-held myth that R&R can't deliver the same.
Re: will a pratten style flute make my hands fall off?
browndog,
i was referring to all r&r style flutes, i havent heard anything bad about hoza flutes in particular.
i have read that because of the smaller bore the r&r's are quieter, which seems to make sense (although what i know about acoustics could be written on the back of a stamp).
are you saying they are just as loud as prattens?
also do you know anything about the tuning? i read on the web that prattens are more in tune than r&r's, that is another thing drawing me towards a pratten.
Re: will a pratten style flute make my hands fall off?
I have a Terry McGee R&R and it has a good sized bore, enormous holes, a deep, rich sound that can be heard in a session of 20 people, a strong low D, and is rarely out of tune (if it is out of tune I just tune it with the tuning slide).
As browndog has already said, these things you've heard about R&R's are misconceptions.
If you already play the low whistle you'll have no problem with the hand stretch on a flute with even the biggest holes.
Prattens are great flutes too. Flutes in general are just great; you're in for a lot of fun.
Re: will a pratten style flute make my hands fall off?
just to clarify, the tuning issues i read about were that the r&rs were more out of tune with themselves than the prattens. i dont know if a tuning slide would help that, i thought that it just helped you tune to other instruments.
it is probably just a total myth, thanks for the benefit of your experience,
im really looking forward to being able to play low notes louder than high notes.
Re: will a pratten style flute make my hands fall off?
Hi Murad Reis:
Yup, I'd say that if you can play, then you can play. (...and please don't assume that I mean that I am one of those who "can play"... ) I'm just debunking the myth that "R&R" and/or "smaller holes" necessarily means "less volume".
Enjoy the transition to flute... I did the same 10 yrs ago, and haven't looked back.
Re: will a pratten style flute make my hands fall off?
Pratten's pefected flute did improve tuning when compared to the older R&R style flute...but that's a big generalization. R&Rs vary greatly - from Chris Norman's small holed, small bore flute to large bore, large hole R&Rs. However, the tuning issue isn't necessarily true on modern R&R flutes. If the maker holds more to the original R&R he likely patterned his flutes after, it may have a slightly flat low D, slightly flat F#, and slightly high A and B. It's more of a just temperament as opposed to equal temperament.. Still, you can play one as in tune as a pratten since playing in tune, on any flute, is truly up to the player.
Re: will a pratten style flute make my hands fall off?
@ Jayhawk: Bingo. My R&R's F# is tuned a tiny bit flat, nominally, because it's maker is obsessively meticulous about designing his flutes true to the classic R&Rs (I can tune it up with my embouchure if I need to). Additionally, he flattens the bottom-D slightly, because strong players like to hit it hard, and it would otherwise go sharp in such a case.
"Intonation" used to be my nemesis (still is) -- I used to be worse than horrible. But I persevered and most importantly, learned to listen, Listen, LISTEN to the instruments around me, and suddenly started to play in tune much much better.
Bottom line is, I can get just as big a sound out of my medium-holed Rudall-style keyless, as any Pratten I've demo'ed, and I'm somehow (in spite of my pathological incompetence) getting better at playing it in tune.
Most importantly, my hands have *NOT* fallen off (....yet...). My sincerest sympathies go out to "Dont" -- it must be a real challenge trying to cross-finger the c-natural with his elbows!
Re: will a pratten style flute make my hands fall off?
Try to get a grip on the flute you are interested in. Generalisations about pratten and r&r don't get you anywhere, a keyless Olwell of a colleague has virtually the same volume and bore as my R&R (made by Lehart). And, because of the metal lined headjoint, my R&R is actually heavier than that pratten.
As for hands falling off, in my view flutes are more comfortable to play, the spacing seems more convenient, but I could be wrong.
Thomas
Re: will a pratten style flute make my hands fall off?
@ Murad Reis: the fundamental point of my prior pedagogical comments is... Don't *exclude* any broad category of flutes due to preconceived notions.
Good luck on your search for the flute that is right for you -- whatever flute it turns out to be, and if it is a Prattern, or an R&R, or any other style, enjoy the lifelong journey of Irish traditional music on flute.
Re: will a pratten style flute make my hands fall off?
I found my pratten style flute (Forbes) to be reasonably easy to get used to after playing a low D (Chieftain) whistle. The sound is also absolutely wonderful. I think almost any new instrument will take some adjusting to so whatever you choose, you may have to play around with hand positions until you find something that is comfortable.
Re: will a pratten style flute make my hands fall off?
The particular flute is more important than the style. I have a Cochran Rudall & Carte style keyless in front of me along with a Rob Forbes Pratten style keyless. Both have been changed from the originals by the makers for tuning purposes and both are easy to play in tune. The finger holes are so close in size between the two that I can't see the difference between the two by eye. The only perceptible difference in spacing is hand spacing between the right and left hand where the Cochran has a slightly larger space between r3 & l1. The spacing between the fingers on each hand is very similar. The bore is also something I would have to measure to tell the difference in diameter at different points along the flute. Same with the outside diameter. They are both capable of huge volume and a honking low D(not so much in my hands). They are both extremely well made. The Cochran is more traditional, blackwood and silver rings and tuning slide, joint between right and left hands and a with a C foot joint. The Forbes is more modern looking, Delrin with chrome rings and an o-ring tuning slide. The embouchures are different with the Cochran being more oval and the tone is different, both beautiful. If I was buying a flute and had a choice between these two, the one thing that wouldn't matter would be which one is a Pratten and which one is a Rudall.
Re: will a pratten style flute make my hands fall off?
It's funny, people are saying the aspects of Rudall & Rose flutes are misconceptions, and then start talking about various modern makers.
Well I played a REAL Rudall & Rose flute, made between 1827 and 1837, which survived in immaculate condition and was a fine player, for several years.
And I have played several REAL Boosey Pratten flutes, and I played a c1860 Pratten-style flue for many years.
Actual, original Pratten flutes DO have a stronger bottom D, and a stronger, more even, and more in-tune scale than actual, original Rudall & Rose flutes in my experience.
Calling this a "misconception" due to the playing characteristics of modern flutes which may use the Rudall & Rose or Pratten names, but in fact are heavily modified, makes no sense.
Can we please restrict the Rudall & Rose name to flutes which were actually made by Rudall & Rose, and the Pratten name to actual mid-19th century Pratten flutes?
Because just because a modern makers CALLS his flute a "Rudall & Rose" flute doesn't mean that it plays anything like a real Rudall & Rose flute.
Re: will a pratten style flute make my hands fall off?
Richard:
Novice question from a VERY novice flute player:
Acknowledging the "progress" over the last 140 to 170 years (if we are talking 1830-1870 manufacture) in flute making, I am curious to know -
in your estimation, are these original flutes superior to most of the modern copies or versions of them you have encountered, and, if so, in what ways and why?
Has technology and research made any real improvements or enhancements on these designs?
I have only tried a handful of flutes in my day, and am in no way an accomplished flutist, but I am, as always, fascinated by analyses of flutes and their design.
Re: will a pratten style flute make my hands fall off?
Richard - labels are handy things. Many makers have flutes that are based upon measurements from original R&R or Pratten flutes. If they stay close to the original design, I don't see a problem describing it as a R&R style flute...we all know they're not the original.
Are you concerned that my scooter has a minarelli style engine and not an actual minarelli motor? I'm not...any mechanic who knows their way around a minarelli 2 stroke will be able to work on my scooter - no problem. However, it's exceptionally useful to be able to call a mechanic and verify they can work on minarelli engines before they work on mine.
People categorize things...it helps us organize the vastly confusing world we live in. Relax...
will a pratten style flute make my hands fall off?
will a pratten style flute make my hands fall off?
hello everyone,
another bl**dy flute based question,
i play low whistle, and want to buy a hoza keyless flute with large bore and toneholes, he says its modelled after a pratten,
people say the pratten style flutes have absurdly big toneholes, but as i play low whistle already i want to ask if the toneholes are bigger on a pratten flute or a low whistle,
i can manage the holes on my kerry low d well enough, but much bigger and i might struggle i reckon,
he also makes a ruddal and rose ish flute, but ive heard they are a lot quieter and the tuning is not so accurate, thats what pushes me towards the pratten style,
any idea anyone?
# Posted on July 4th 2009 by Murad Reis
Re: will a pratten style flute make my hands fall off?
The holes on many Low D whistles are far bigger than the holes on a Pratten, so that won't be a worry for you.
A well-made Pratten style flute is a joy to play: full big tone on the entire gamut, a huge honking bottom D, great tuning.
Enjoy!
# Posted on July 4th 2009 by Richard D Cook
Re: will a pratten style flute make my hands fall off?
"he also makes a ruddal and rose Irish flute, but ive heard they are a lot quieter and the tuning is not so accurate"
Are you referring specifically to Hoza's R&R flutes?
If you are referring to *all* R&Rs in general, then I'd say you've been misinformed.
"R&R = quieter" and "R&R = weaker bottom 'D"" are misconceptions propagated by people who don't put the time, dedication, and effort into getting a big sound and big bottom 'D' from an R&R.
Don't get me wrong -- I'm not bashing Prattens, et al (P. Olwell's Prattens are among the best and most sought-after flutes ever made). I'm just trying to dispel the widely-held myth that R&R can't deliver the same.
# Posted on July 4th 2009 by browndog
Re: will a pratten style flute make my hands fall off?
browndog,
i was referring to all r&r style flutes, i havent heard anything bad about hoza flutes in particular.
i have read that because of the smaller bore the r&r's are quieter, which seems to make sense (although what i know about acoustics could be written on the back of a stamp).
are you saying they are just as loud as prattens?
also do you know anything about the tuning? i read on the web that prattens are more in tune than r&r's, that is another thing drawing me towards a pratten.
# Posted on July 4th 2009 by Murad Reis
Re: will a pratten style flute make my hands fall off?
I have a Terry McGee R&R and it has a good sized bore, enormous holes, a deep, rich sound that can be heard in a session of 20 people, a strong low D, and is rarely out of tune (if it is out of tune I just tune it with the tuning slide).
As browndog has already said, these things you've heard about R&R's are misconceptions.
If you already play the low whistle you'll have no problem with the hand stretch on a flute with even the biggest holes.
Prattens are great flutes too. Flutes in general are just great; you're in for a lot of fun.
# Posted on July 4th 2009 by Glass of Beer
Re: will a pratten style flute make my hands fall off?
just to clarify, the tuning issues i read about were that the r&rs were more out of tune with themselves than the prattens. i dont know if a tuning slide would help that, i thought that it just helped you tune to other instruments.
it is probably just a total myth, thanks for the benefit of your experience,
im really looking forward to being able to play low notes louder than high notes.
# Posted on July 4th 2009 by Murad Reis
Re: will a pratten style flute make my hands fall off?
Yes! My hands fell off almost immediately! Had them in a back pack for awhile but can't find them right now. Typing with elbows sucks. Don't do it!
# Posted on July 4th 2009 by Dont
Re: will a pratten style flute make my hands fall off?
Hi Murad Reis:
) I'm just debunking the myth that "R&R" and/or "smaller holes" necessarily means "less volume".
Yup, I'd say that if you can play, then you can play. (...and please don't assume that I mean that I am one of those who "can play"...
Enjoy the transition to flute... I did the same 10 yrs ago, and haven't looked back.
Cheers.
# Posted on July 4th 2009 by browndog
Re: will a pratten style flute make my hands fall off?
Pratten's pefected flute did improve tuning when compared to the older R&R style flute...but that's a big generalization. R&Rs vary greatly - from Chris Norman's small holed, small bore flute to large bore, large hole R&Rs. However, the tuning issue isn't necessarily true on modern R&R flutes. If the maker holds more to the original R&R he likely patterned his flutes after, it may have a slightly flat low D, slightly flat F#, and slightly high A and B. It's more of a just temperament as opposed to equal temperament.. Still, you can play one as in tune as a pratten since playing in tune, on any flute, is truly up to the player.
Eric
# Posted on July 4th 2009 by Jayhawk
Re: will a pratten style flute make my hands fall off?
@ Jayhawk: Bingo. My R&R's F# is tuned a tiny bit flat, nominally, because it's maker is obsessively meticulous about designing his flutes true to the classic R&Rs (I can tune it up with my embouchure if I need to). Additionally, he flattens the bottom-D slightly, because strong players like to hit it hard, and it would otherwise go sharp in such a case.
"Intonation" used to be my nemesis (still is) -- I used to be worse than horrible. But I persevered and most importantly, learned to listen, Listen, LISTEN to the instruments around me, and suddenly started to play in tune much much better.
Bottom line is, I can get just as big a sound out of my medium-holed Rudall-style keyless, as any Pratten I've demo'ed, and I'm somehow (in spite of my pathological incompetence) getting better at playing it in tune.
Most importantly, my hands have *NOT* fallen off (....yet...). My sincerest sympathies go out to "Dont" -- it must be a real challenge trying to cross-finger the c-natural with his elbows!
# Posted on July 4th 2009 by browndog
Re: will a pratten style flute make my hands fall off?
Try to get a grip on the flute you are interested in. Generalisations about pratten and r&r don't get you anywhere, a keyless Olwell of a colleague has virtually the same volume and bore as my R&R (made by Lehart). And, because of the metal lined headjoint, my R&R is actually heavier than that pratten.
As for hands falling off, in my view flutes are more comfortable to play, the spacing seems more convenient, but I could be wrong.
Thomas
# Posted on July 4th 2009 by TMB
Re: will a pratten style flute make my hands fall off?
...that is more comfortable than low whistles, regardless of pratten or r&r flutes
# Posted on July 4th 2009 by TMB
Re: will a pratten style flute make my hands fall off?
Good points, TMB. Same as my (admittedly limited) experiences exactly.
# Posted on July 4th 2009 by browndog
Re: will a pratten style flute make my hands fall off?
@ Murad Reis: the fundamental point of my prior pedagogical comments is... Don't *exclude* any broad category of flutes due to preconceived notions.
Good luck on your search for the flute that is right for you -- whatever flute it turns out to be, and if it is a Prattern, or an R&R, or any other style, enjoy the lifelong journey of Irish traditional music on flute.
Cheers.
# Posted on July 4th 2009 by browndog
Re: will a pratten style flute make my hands fall off?
will a pratten style flute make my hands fall off? ans.No. but playin a Hoza might make your jaw fall off
# Posted on July 4th 2009 by Kevin Farrell
Re: will a pratten style flute make my hands fall off?
I found my pratten style flute (Forbes) to be reasonably easy to get used to after playing a low D (Chieftain) whistle. The sound is also absolutely wonderful. I think almost any new instrument will take some adjusting to so whatever you choose, you may have to play around with hand positions until you find something that is comfortable.
# Posted on July 5th 2009 by Bredna
Re: will a pratten style flute make my hands fall off?
To add to that, my hands are medium sized.
# Posted on July 5th 2009 by Bredna
Re: will a pratten style flute make my hands fall off?
The particular flute is more important than the style. I have a Cochran Rudall & Carte style keyless in front of me along with a Rob Forbes Pratten style keyless. Both have been changed from the originals by the makers for tuning purposes and both are easy to play in tune. The finger holes are so close in size between the two that I can't see the difference between the two by eye. The only perceptible difference in spacing is hand spacing between the right and left hand where the Cochran has a slightly larger space between r3 & l1. The spacing between the fingers on each hand is very similar. The bore is also something I would have to measure to tell the difference in diameter at different points along the flute. Same with the outside diameter. They are both capable of huge volume and a honking low D(not so much in my hands). They are both extremely well made. The Cochran is more traditional, blackwood and silver rings and tuning slide, joint between right and left hands and a with a C foot joint. The Forbes is more modern looking, Delrin with chrome rings and an o-ring tuning slide. The embouchures are different with the Cochran being more oval and the tone is different, both beautiful. If I was buying a flute and had a choice between these two, the one thing that wouldn't matter would be which one is a Pratten and which one is a Rudall.
# Posted on July 5th 2009 by Stuporman
Re: will a pratten style flute make my hands fall off?
edit previous: slightly larger space between l3 & r1
# Posted on July 5th 2009 by Stuporman
Re: will a pratten style flute make my hands fall off?
kev899, are you saying that hozas are tough for the embouchure?
# Posted on July 5th 2009 by Murad Reis
Re: will a pratten style flute make my hands fall off?
It's funny, people are saying the aspects of Rudall & Rose flutes are misconceptions, and then start talking about various modern makers.
Well I played a REAL Rudall & Rose flute, made between 1827 and 1837, which survived in immaculate condition and was a fine player, for several years.
And I have played several REAL Boosey Pratten flutes, and I played a c1860 Pratten-style flue for many years.
Actual, original Pratten flutes DO have a stronger bottom D, and a stronger, more even, and more in-tune scale than actual, original Rudall & Rose flutes in my experience.
Calling this a "misconception" due to the playing characteristics of modern flutes which may use the Rudall & Rose or Pratten names, but in fact are heavily modified, makes no sense.
Can we please restrict the Rudall & Rose name to flutes which were actually made by Rudall & Rose, and the Pratten name to actual mid-19th century Pratten flutes?
Because just because a modern makers CALLS his flute a "Rudall & Rose" flute doesn't mean that it plays anything like a real Rudall & Rose flute.
# Posted on July 5th 2009 by Richard D Cook
Re: will a pratten style flute make my hands fall off?
Richard:
Novice question from a VERY novice flute player:
Acknowledging the "progress" over the last 140 to 170 years (if we are talking 1830-1870 manufacture) in flute making, I am curious to know -
in your estimation, are these original flutes superior to most of the modern copies or versions of them you have encountered, and, if so, in what ways and why?
Has technology and research made any real improvements or enhancements on these designs?
I have only tried a handful of flutes in my day, and am in no way an accomplished flutist, but I am, as always, fascinated by analyses of flutes and their design.
Thank you in advance,
# Posted on July 5th 2009 by Piece
Re: will a pratten style flute make my hands fall off?
Richard - labels are handy things. Many makers have flutes that are based upon measurements from original R&R or Pratten flutes. If they stay close to the original design, I don't see a problem describing it as a R&R style flute...we all know they're not the original.
Are you concerned that my scooter has a minarelli style engine and not an actual minarelli motor? I'm not...any mechanic who knows their way around a minarelli 2 stroke will be able to work on my scooter - no problem. However, it's exceptionally useful to be able to call a mechanic and verify they can work on minarelli engines before they work on mine.
People categorize things...it helps us organize the vastly confusing world we live in. Relax...
Eric
# Posted on July 6th 2009 by Jayhawk