"Musical innovation is full of danger to the State, for when modes of music change, the laws of the State always change with them"
-Plato
I found this quote amusing considering how many members of this esteemed council known as the Yellow Board so vehemently dislike any new-fangled forms of Irish music. The constant tug of war between the new and the old keeps the tradition vibrant in my opinion. Never-the-less, I know many disagree so it begs the question; are groups like Lunasa and Flook a "threat to the State" of Irish music?
How exactly were Lunasa and Flook innovative? Have a listen to Moving Hearts and Deiseal, two groups that came long before them. They're the template for that kind of music.
There's great innovation going on all the time in trad that has nothing to do
Henry - feel free to insert whomever you want in the equation. I simply put Lunasa and Flook as a jumping off point, and because those groups have an equal amount of loyal new-trad fans and "pure drop" detractors.
My objection to the "new drop" stuff is not that it's likely to bring down the old regimes and overturn the established ways and moralities. I think that's quite unlikely - it's simply not interesting enough for that. My problem with Flunasa is just that it's pretty boring stuff. It takes all the worst parts of trad - the simplistic harmony, the repetition - and layers on dollops of the most sickly and tepid parts of smooth-jazz.
Be honest, whose records are you more likely to hear in a mall - Lunasa or Tommy Peoples?
Now there's plenty of new developments to like within trad music, but making it safe for dentist's offices is not one that I would rank among them - it's not a very new development (as henry points out), it's not within trad music (as is obvious if you listen for a few minutes) and it's not something that one can actually like.
Jon basically summed up everything there.......some of these bands sound to me like a couple of good tune players accompanied by George Michael's backing band, it's all so smooooooth and nice and polite, but anyway, feck it doesn't really bother me that much, I'm sure these bands have had a positive effect in turning a lot of people on to trad and they're all fine musicians just having a laugh and trying to make a living. It's not like they're Simon Cowell or Louis Walsh or anything, now they're the people we need to be concerned about, they're moulding the musical minds of people like my little 12 year old sister who thinks any form of trad is booooorrrrinng....
The best Irish musicians are scarcely known by their subjects;
The next best are loved and praised;
The next are feared;
The next despised:
They have no faith in their people,
And their people become unfaithful to them.
When the best Irish musicians achieve their purpose
Their subjects claim the achievement as their own.
Ancient Greeks regarded Major and Minor modes as the most detrimental, as they evoked too strong feelings and moods in the youth. So, as long as you stick to Mixolydian or Dorian, you and your State should be, ahem, sound.
Jon, you made my day -
I just imagined a crowd of people on a weekend shopping spree in the mall with Tommy Peoples squeaking at them from the loudspeakers, having this hallucinated/tormented/absent look in their eyes and walking into the shelves and glass doors.
Now Tommy Potts was innovative! - ahead of his time actually. Exploring the contemporary while maintaining the integrety of the tradition is both an innovative approach t trad and a natural one. The Boths and Planxs did it successfuly. The Old Hag You Have Killed Me album was supposed to be called Trip to Mars actually only Malloy was tasked with bringing the album to the printers and chickened out when he got there.
The Islamic attitude to music by some is a fear of progression and evolution within trad.
A friend of the band's sound manager/roadie/general factotum did produce some alternative album covers for The Bothy Band as an inhouse Mulligan Towers joke and one of these was called 'Trip to Mars', but this was never agreed upon as the title of the band's second album. And Matt Molloy would never have been sent to the printers with a mock-up of the cover (and, indeed, he never was trusted with such a task) since this was the role of the aforementioned general factotum.
A far more interesting and true story concerns the reason why only four of the band feature on the front cover of 'Out of the Wind Into the Sun', but I'll leave you guessing.
Early years of RoI - Music and laws dominated by the Catholic church, trad kept down. Nothing happens.
1960s - The Dubliners. RoI sells some Kerrygold to Britain.
1970s - Planxty, Bothies etc. RoI joins EEC and rakes in subsidies. Also becomes prime holiday destination.
1980s - De Dannan. British brickies go to RoI for work and better prospects.
1990s - Flook, Lunasa. Ireland becomes the Celtic Tiger, straddling the world.
Now - Economic crash. Nothing happens.
Is this a reflection on the state of ITM, whose increasing status and following so exactly coincided with the rise of the RoI to become a turbo-charged Neo-Liberal economic power-house, to the point that one might mischievously suggest it was the cause of this?
Are too many of the youth up their own backsides listening to recordings of Tommy Potts, perplexed and demoralised? Are they no longer being schooled in the rugged and martial modes and rhythms of the Bothy Band, to go out and screw the world? If not, why not?
My hypothesis is that Dervish's failure to storm Eurovision and the elevation of Dustin the Turkey by a faction brought about a crisis of confidence in the State of ITM, leading directly to national and global economic collapse. The rhythms, lyrics and modes of Dustin the Turkey are entirely conducive to abyssal depravity and - far worse - lack of aggressive economic enterprise.
Only the restoration of ITM to pristine vigour will save the world. But who will do it? What philosopher-king is prepared to sweep into power and subject it to his salutary rule?
I suppose Plato was indulging in a little social engineering. That sort of thing gets popular from time to time. It's like an attempt to tease-out and separate the chicken from the egg in hopes of producing an elephant.
In regards to Plato, I think Nietzsche was being polite.
Always there are these idiots expecting that they can change the input by altering the output. All that happens is that the process becomes corrupt.
The only ones who give a damn about the input are musicians - it can be observed time and again how musicians lose their audience by failing to understand that the inputs are far more than music and/or musical excellence and or tinpot political opinions. Elevator music is the graveyard of the intellectualizing musician. The audience will find vitality where it lives.
Plato would have hated new trad groups
Plato would have hated new trad groups
"Musical innovation is full of danger to the State, for when modes of music change, the laws of the State always change with them"
-Plato
I found this quote amusing considering how many members of this esteemed council known as the Yellow Board so vehemently dislike any new-fangled forms of Irish music. The constant tug of war between the new and the old keeps the tradition vibrant in my opinion. Never-the-less, I know many disagree so it begs the question; are groups like Lunasa and Flook a "threat to the State" of Irish music?
# Posted on June 24th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Plato would have hated new trad groups
Perhaps there's a causal link between the rise of musical experimentation and he demise of the Irish economy ?
# Posted on June 24th 2009 by Patkiwi
Re: Plato would have hated new trad groups
Plato: Just another idiot? Coincidence? I THINK NOT!
# Posted on June 24th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Plato would have hated new trad groups
Strangely I find Plato's statism repugnant, yet in terms of music I could be termed a conservative statist.
Good stuff Jusa, that's some quality intellectual trolling ya got there.
# Posted on June 24th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Plato would have hated new trad groups
How exactly were Lunasa and Flook innovative? Have a listen to Moving Hearts and Deiseal, two groups that came long before them. They're the template for that kind of music.
There's great innovation going on all the time in trad that has nothing to do
# Posted on June 24th 2009 by Fartknocker
Re: Plato would have hated new trad groups
....with bands, it's just to subtle for most people to recognise
# Posted on June 24th 2009 by Fartknocker
Re: Plato would have hated new trad groups
Henry - feel free to insert whomever you want in the equation. I simply put Lunasa and Flook as a jumping off point, and because those groups have an equal amount of loyal new-trad fans and "pure drop" detractors.
# Posted on June 24th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Plato would have hated new trad groups
My objection to the "new drop" stuff is not that it's likely to bring down the old regimes and overturn the established ways and moralities. I think that's quite unlikely - it's simply not interesting enough for that. My problem with Flunasa is just that it's pretty boring stuff. It takes all the worst parts of trad - the simplistic harmony, the repetition - and layers on dollops of the most sickly and tepid parts of smooth-jazz.
Be honest, whose records are you more likely to hear in a mall - Lunasa or Tommy Peoples?
Now there's plenty of new developments to like within trad music, but making it safe for dentist's offices is not one that I would rank among them - it's not a very new development (as henry points out), it's not within trad music (as is obvious if you listen for a few minutes) and it's not something that one can actually like.
# Posted on June 24th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Plato would have hated new trad groups
Jon basically summed up everything there.......some of these bands sound to me like a couple of good tune players accompanied by George Michael's backing band, it's all so smooooooth and nice and polite, but anyway, feck it doesn't really bother me that much, I'm sure these bands have had a positive effect in turning a lot of people on to trad and they're all fine musicians just having a laugh and trying to make a living. It's not like they're Simon Cowell or Louis Walsh or anything, now they're the people we need to be concerned about, they're moulding the musical minds of people like my little 12 year old sister who thinks any form of trad is booooorrrrinng....
# Posted on June 24th 2009 by Fartknocker
Re: Plato would have hated new trad groups
If you look closely you can spot Plato in the crowd:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bCMmEe9PI8&feature=related
And Aristotle was the back stage manager here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynorPAwOyEA
Nietzsche's mum made the sandwiches and tea for this gig:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7v01_9DPkM
I think Socrates forgot his ID and they wouldn't serve him at this venue:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPiEUaxHvFw
# Posted on June 24th 2009 by Greenwiggle
Re: Plato would have hated new trad groups
The best Irish musicians are scarcely known by their subjects;
The next best are loved and praised;
The next are feared;
The next despised:
They have no faith in their people,
And their people become unfaithful to them.
When the best Irish musicians achieve their purpose
Their subjects claim the achievement as their own.
-Lao O'Tsu
# Posted on June 24th 2009 by fedorastain
Re: Plato would have hated new trad groups
didn't Stalin feel similarly? Something about the neglect of folk music denoting anti-democratic tendencies?
# Posted on June 24th 2009 by airport
Re: Plato would have hated new trad groups
Confucius also decided that certain geographical areas were to play in their designated keys and styles....
# Posted on June 24th 2009 by fedorastain
Re: Plato would have hated new trad groups
Ancient Greeks regarded Major and Minor modes as the most detrimental, as they evoked too strong feelings and moods in the youth. So, as long as you stick to Mixolydian or Dorian, you and your State should be, ahem, sound.
# Posted on June 24th 2009 by EastPole
Re: Plato would have hated new trad groups
Jon, you made my day -
I just imagined a crowd of people on a weekend shopping spree in the mall with Tommy Peoples squeaking at them from the loudspeakers, having this hallucinated/tormented/absent look in their eyes and walking into the shelves and glass doors.
# Posted on June 24th 2009 by EastPole
Re: Plato would have hated new trad groups
Really who care what Micky's dog thinks?
# Posted on June 24th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Plato would have hated new trad groups
Now Tommy Potts was innovative! - ahead of his time actually. Exploring the contemporary while maintaining the integrety of the tradition is both an innovative approach t trad and a natural one. The Boths and Planxs did it successfuly. The Old Hag You Have Killed Me album was supposed to be called Trip to Mars actually only Malloy was tasked with bringing the album to the printers and chickened out when he got there.
The Islamic attitude to music by some is a fear of progression and evolution within trad.
# Posted on June 24th 2009 by iwerzon
Re: Plato would have hated new trad groups
Iwerzon's tale is only very slightly true.
A friend of the band's sound manager/roadie/general factotum did produce some alternative album covers for The Bothy Band as an inhouse Mulligan Towers joke and one of these was called 'Trip to Mars', but this was never agreed upon as the title of the band's second album. And Matt Molloy would never have been sent to the printers with a mock-up of the cover (and, indeed, he never was trusted with such a task) since this was the role of the aforementioned general factotum.
A far more interesting and true story concerns the reason why only four of the band feature on the front cover of 'Out of the Wind Into the Sun', but I'll leave you guessing.
# Posted on June 24th 2009 by Floss the Tethers
Re: Plato would have hated new trad groups
In fact further investigation reveals that the cover mock-up actually featured an album called 'Is There a Bar on Mars?'
# Posted on June 24th 2009 by Floss the Tethers
Re: Plato would have hated new trad groups
A conceivable time-line:
Early years of RoI - Music and laws dominated by the Catholic church, trad kept down. Nothing happens.
1960s - The Dubliners. RoI sells some Kerrygold to Britain.
1970s - Planxty, Bothies etc. RoI joins EEC and rakes in subsidies. Also becomes prime holiday destination.
1980s - De Dannan. British brickies go to RoI for work and better prospects.
1990s - Flook, Lunasa. Ireland becomes the Celtic Tiger, straddling the world.
Now - Economic crash. Nothing happens.
Is this a reflection on the state of ITM, whose increasing status and following so exactly coincided with the rise of the RoI to become a turbo-charged Neo-Liberal economic power-house, to the point that one might mischievously suggest it was the cause of this?
Are too many of the youth up their own backsides listening to recordings of Tommy Potts, perplexed and demoralised? Are they no longer being schooled in the rugged and martial modes and rhythms of the Bothy Band, to go out and screw the world? If not, why not?
My hypothesis is that Dervish's failure to storm Eurovision and the elevation of Dustin the Turkey by a faction brought about a crisis of confidence in the State of ITM, leading directly to national and global economic collapse. The rhythms, lyrics and modes of Dustin the Turkey are entirely conducive to abyssal depravity and - far worse - lack of aggressive economic enterprise.
Only the restoration of ITM to pristine vigour will save the world. But who will do it? What philosopher-king is prepared to sweep into power and subject it to his salutary rule?
llig might, I suppose.
# Posted on June 24th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Plato would have hated new trad groups
I have one addendum to your timeline Nicholas -
1840 - 1959 - Irish music kept on life support by Irish Immigrants and their off-spring in America.
Right, carry on.
Oh, and this gem from Nietzsche - "Plato was a bore..."
# Posted on June 24th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Plato would have hated new trad groups
'1840 - 1959 - Irish music kept on life support by Irish Immigrants and their off-spring in America.'
Hot diggedy, JNA, I hope you're prepared to defend that very contentious statement!
# Posted on June 24th 2009 by Floss the Tethers
Re: Plato would have hated new trad groups
i would of thought the life support machine was where it should be . . .
at 'home', despite the severe blow of a famine 1845-1849
# Posted on June 25th 2009 by lisaniska
Re: Plato would have hated new trad groups
Plato was certain that the mixolydian mode would make young men effeminate.
i.e. A BIG SISSY
# Posted on June 25th 2009 by Lint - upon - Tweed
Re: Plato would have hated new trad groups
Time to come out -
I am bi-sessional.
# Posted on June 25th 2009 by Rook
Re: Plato would have hated new trad groups
I suppose Plato was indulging in a little social engineering. That sort of thing gets popular from time to time. It's like an attempt to tease-out and separate the chicken from the egg in hopes of producing an elephant.
In regards to Plato, I think Nietzsche was being polite.
Always there are these idiots expecting that they can change the input by altering the output. All that happens is that the process becomes corrupt.
The only ones who give a damn about the input are musicians - it can be observed time and again how musicians lose their audience by failing to understand that the inputs are far more than music and/or musical excellence and or tinpot political opinions. Elevator music is the graveyard of the intellectualizing musician. The audience will find vitality where it lives.
# Posted on June 29th 2009 by Mozle
Re: Plato would have hated new trad groups
Nietzsche may of been a bit of a bore too
' . . . but beauty absolute, seperate, simple and everlasting.'
Now
# Posted on July 6th 2009 by hungry grass