How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
3 threads down Flying Fiddler hit the nail on the head. There are so many negative comments and unneccessary caustic remarks here that I am sure there must be many like Fiddler who will be reluctant to raise there head above the parapit for fear of it getting shot at.
I, like the next guy/gal, thoroughly enjoy the craic & banter that forums like this provide but I also look to gain and offer constructive advice when neccessary. If I want criticism I'll ask for it.
I do wish some of the self appointed trad pundit bullies would remove their heads from each others arses look around and see how they can encourage more site visitors to debate with constructive comments and not mock those with an alternative opinion.
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
but this is where I go to research authentic ITM wind-ups, insults, and name calling! How am I supposed to properly berate a bodhranist without drawing heavily on llig's postings?
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
Balance is necessary.
On one hand, we have lots of feel good hippies looking to have a musical love-in with a music they just discovered and are looking to perhaps learn more about.
On the other, we have lots of grumpy die-hards resentful at the never ending parade of newbies who come and go, tromping all over what we love with their new-agey let's all hold hands and make happy friends time.
In between the balance is to be found, and the hippies and the grumps both have vital roles to play in creating a balanced center ground.
Also, having a sense of humor will greatly assist. An appreciation of the playful and friendly yet derogatory style of Irish humor and camaraderie known as 'slagging' will let a newbie go far.
You’ll also live longer and not get all upset about mean people on internet forums and in the backs of pubs grumbling “yer not doin it rite.” More often than not, the mean people have something quite important to say, in their own way. Certainly a lot more substantial and meaningful than "let's all be friends and make happy time".
I'll happily hold your hand and sing a folk song, but then I'll be looking for a long set of reels after. Balance.
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
Sticks and stones...
Some people consider "stop playing the bodhran and take up a real instrument" to be a very constructive piece of advice. And I'm sure there are actually people who have followed this advice and and very happy with the result.
There seems to be this myth that the folk/trad world should be a touchy feely free for all where noone's feelings get hurt and everyone gets along.
If it is my belief that something someone is doing is not only daft, but potentially detrimental to others, should I withhold my criticism?
I'm a complete newbie to irish music (3 years and counting) and have never had anything less than very helpful comments from the mustard board.
Maybe people whose feelings often get hurt should consider the possibility that their detractors are right. Or ignore them.
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
You must not frequent other music boards...much less the political ones and others.
This is rather tame...and unlike about 85% of the other boards, this one has value.
On others, even of an intellectual bent you have the borderline psychotics, (male or female) sweet young things who were or claim to be from your past, political crazies and just plain nasty people.
Even on our worst days (with the exception of the occasional random head case who signs up, wreaks a bit of havoc for a day or two and thankfully disappears to abusive a Viagra support group site or similar) our abuse-even about bodhran and bones players- is really freindly teasing.
Btw. We have had a couple of those exceptions I mentioned in the past two weeks. When the regulars here get their fill, of a useless poster and generate some umbrage, they either ridicule the smackposter to death, or ignore them until they go away.
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
One of the problems with a text-based forum is that it is difficult to determine the context of someone's post, if there's a history behind it, and you don't know the history. So a lot of what might be teasing, slagging, sarcasm, or targeted negativity is difficult to understand without the context. After being on this forum for a good number of years, you have a pretty good idea of where most of the posts are coming from. You may choose to ignore some out of habit, and listen carefully to what other people say...
The emoticons can help you frame your posts a bit, so that they aren't misinterpreted, but that's not enough.
So instead of having knee-jerk reactions to the "negative comments and caustic remarks", don't take them personally, unless they were aimed directly at you. And even then, try to learn from their intent. It's pretty rare that the negativity on this board is there specifically to be rude - there's usually something to be learned from the content. And even if you're on the opposing side of a debate about a particular subject (say, ear vs. dots, for instance), a deeper understanding of the debate itself can be gained by listening to the reasons someone is so passionate about opposing your point of view...
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
No "knee-jerk reaction" at all Reverand... You only have to look at the names that constantly contribute to this forum.. namely yours, zippy, swl,trucks etc. Not that many new names contribute.
Do you not think that if a more conciliatory tone was used we'd see a lot more traffic from those that feel alienated through inexperience to contribute....?
There have been threads where a legitimate question has been asked by a newbe only to be answered by a 1 line sarcastic comment.
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
Sometimes when you try to be ironic and tongue-in-cheek in response to a comment which is intended to be equally ironic and tongue-in-cheek, people take it the wrong way, allow themselves to be very offended, and try to insult you in a very ugly way. All of which was completely unnecessary and needless.
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
lol@Pat Benatar - definitely a resemblance to this board. The board isn't as heavy on the hairspray, neon, and muscle shirts, but yeah, I see it.
As a newbie reading the board, I find most of the exchanges to be in humor. Some are curt or rude, but not the majority. I'm learning a lot from listening/reading. How else would I have known about sweaty session arse....90yr old trombone players in red spandex...Pat Benatar....the armies of insistent bodhran players?
There are more perils to ITM than I ever imagined. ;)
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
I actually meant the Pat Benatar bit. ' We are young. '
Sessions have been around for some time, but we have not.
It's still early to say what the internet forum tradition is, or what it may become.
Sometimes I read where good members have been driven off, or otherwise choose not to contribute. I hope they are fine (or better) where ever they are now. As for the rest of you ~ why not consider the discussions as similar to playing a set of tunes?
And when you play a tune what do you do; what do you not do? I'm guessing you might be listening, joining in with the tunes you know . . . or you might be tapping away on your drum.
oops! no analogy intended. Just being silly.
Cheers!
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
Hi awildman, how can I be of assistance? I haven't come across you before, but I do know that calling people 'assholes...bullies and elitists' while YELLING IN ALL CAPS is a great and friendly way to call attention to yourself and get the help you are in need of.
Incidentally, my post is an excellent example of keeping a sense of humor in the face of such civilized and intelligent behavior. Sarcasm helps too!
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
it is specifically on a sheet music site that people must be constantly reminded of their peril.
You're going to tell me that I'm being elitist, but only people who know a lot about irish music and don't really need it anyway should be allowed anywhere near sheetmusic.
Of course "allowed" is not the right word. Anyone who want's to use sheetmusic is perfectly entitled to, just as there is no law against throwing money down the toilet or picking a fight with the biggest guy in the pub. It's just *friendly* people would pull you to one side and say that it's not really a good idea. That's exactly what happens here.
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
What is so difficult about ears first, eyes second? It's just common sense. I can't tell you how many times I've chucked the dots from here because they are WRONG.
Take the Salamanca. The version posted is all mucked up in the B part, if you've learned it from The Bothy Band, that is. In the Comments, Llig has the ABCs for the Bothy version listed there.
So I play the Salamanca all the time, finally the fluter wants to learn it, he goes and learns the dots, we play it together, boom. Train wreck on the B part. I play him The Bothy clip, I play mine with them, "See?" I says.
Sure enough, in the Comments, there's the ABC for the Bothy B part.
Your honor, there are a million cases like this in the big city, we the been here forever gang have seen it a million times. There is only one final judge of any set of dots for this music:
Your ears.
Why?
Because there very may well be 50 versions of the same tune, and unless you are listening and playing based on what you are hearing at all times, you will only be able to play one version of any given tune, the one you learned in stone from some dots, probably from here, and probably WRONG as all get out.
Now, is that mean? I am being a big ol' meany? Did I hurt anyone's feelings?
If so, they're being ridiculous, because these are just the facts, ma'am.
Gee newbies, I used to be one of the nice guys too. I still am, really! Still crazy, but nice!
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
"And what the f**k did I mean by that?" I meant exactly what I said with no other meanings intended. Nor was I was trying to offend anyone. This discussion reminded me of something which happened to me earlier this year, that's all.
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
I was told as a kid that before saying anything, I should ask myself, "Is it kind? Is it true? Is it necessary?"
I think it is a very good maxim in real life.
But The Session is not real life as customarily defined. It is a warp field in a parallel universe. It centres on an activity whose necessity is regarded by most as highly dubious, and whose practitioners are sometimes even seen as strangers to the truth.
Therefore, the environment both promotes and excuses the practice of untrammelled fantasy at every level of discourse.
Kindness I would not dismiss. But I reserve the kind / true / necessary formula for serious questions and eager newbies. Of the latter I tell myself, "Be gentle and literal with him / her / it, for he / she / it is but an Earthlet with one foot still in reality and unversed in the droll and savage banter of the adept."
Otherwise it's open season. Apologies though if I've got up anyone's nose. Nor have I had any wish or reason to slag anyone off here. (Though I use other sites whose tone can be a lot more vitriolic than here. Some of this may rub off on me when I turn from those sites to this one...)
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
Take the rude remarks with a grain of salt, thicken your skin and enjoy the humor. I've learned many tunes and received good advice from this site. Thanks to all who contribute.
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
But weebag, my point is that there is something to be learned by the 1 line sarcastic comments. Things that might be learned:
• Maybe you just opened a can of worms, or a topic that has been discussed ad nauseam, so maybe a site search is in order.
• Maybe you asked a question that experienced people find pointless, and you should examine the content of your question.
• Maybe you asked a question in such a manner that makes you appear to be a troll, looking to stir things up, and so maybe you should clarify why you're asking the question.
Just a few possibilities... Granted, it's hard to read that kind of information into a 1 word answer, and the poster might want to clarify their 1 word answer a bit more.
Another example of knee-jerk reaction is that people seem to get bent out of shape whenever llig asks the legitimate question of why you want the dots of something if you have a recording. That's a legitimate question, which has some potentially legitimate answers, but people get ultra-defensive, and start ragging on him for his abruptness. My point is that instead of lashing out at his response, try learning from the message, *even if you disagree* with it!
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
An enormous problem with text-based interaction (internet boards, letters, postcards, and jaysus hasnt everyone lost a friend or two to an ambiguous text) is that you cant see the whites of their eyes. A gentle slagging, or even a mild reprimand comes across as vicious abuse in the absence of the twinkle in the eye or the little grin.
You have to remember we're all sitting, most probably alone, in front of a computer, reading about and discussing a pursuit that few of our family and friends consider in any way interesting. Thats rifle in the belltower territory. What makes this site and other good ones different is that people are aware that the other contributors are people just like them. Sometimes serious and passionate; sometimes having the craic.
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
Actually, if llig were to be banned from this board, this board would be a far far better place. He has no useful advice or opinions. He doesn't keep me from playing this music the way I want o play it. He only keeps me from posting here more often.
He's a rude, obnoxious, soulless eejit who probably needs to change his diapers more often.
I so wish I had the opportunity to punch him in the face. Too bad Edinburgh is so far away from Austin.
Grrrrr....
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
fortunetly on so many levels Austin is far away from Scotland.
I don't agree with Llig all the time but even if I disagreed with him all the time ,he has the right to believe in what he likes,as I have.
Even in the USA where I assume Austin is,you have this right.
So how does he prevent you from posting? Mind control?
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
"I, like the next guy/gal, thoroughly enjoy the craic & banter that forums like this provide but I also look to gain and offer constructive advice when neccessary. If I want criticism I'll ask for it."- weebag
If everyone only listened to the criticism they asked for they might never progress..in anything..
I'm not even goin to comment on the name -weebag- if u have one I feel bad for ya..
All these door serious phuckin threads with no basis in crak or the tunes..The mustard board is going to the dogs
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
Yes indeed,the truly incomparable Zero Mostel.That still cracks me up each time I see it.
In fact,in these times,this 'End of Days',even,it's the only thing that keeps me going.That and the inebriated naval commentator from the 1930s. ( http://uffish.net/archives/000327.html )
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
Fauxcelt:
I'd like to think you noticed the smiley in my earlier post, and realised I was sending up exactly the attitudes that you were talking about. But I can't read that into your subsequent replies.
If you have time, scroll back up, reread your earlier post and my answer which immediately followed it, and try to catch onto what my post meant in the context of your prior message and the appended smiley.
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
Fishmonger:
>Actually, if llig were to be banned from this board, <snip>
Phooey.
Agree with him or not, Llig is easily one of the most interesting posters to this board. I rarely agree 100% with him, but I'm more often closer to his position that not (I'm just a more wishy whade of gray than Llig's pure white, or is it black?).
When I'm behind and come across a gigantic thread, I skim it by searching for the certain user names to get to the core of what the discussion is. The first name I search for is Llig.
Someone willing so put forward an unambiguous position is invaluable in a discussion forum.
Sure Llig can be abrupt, but I don't recall him personalising debates. What I have found unpleasant and bordering on the offensive is the recent spate of posters targeting Llig personally. On occasion (and I'm not acusing you of this Fishmonger) it has seemed orchastrated.
Aim at the issues not the contributers to the discussion.
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
llig can back his opinions up with reasons, clearly stated. He's good value. If branded congenitally or personally by him as a pillock or a feckin' eejit, endure for a while the lash of the hailstorm and anon the wisdom of llig will shine upon you. Well, may.
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
If you take up goat-beating (or any other non-melody instrument) as a quick entry into playing along with the speed-merchants, without wanting to do any practise, you deserve all you get - if you don't get it on this site, you will get it in your first session.
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
When I was first reading through the posts on this discussion thread, I was at work and I was either suddenly interrupted and/or the computer which I use at work wasn't sophisticated enough to include smiley faces with messages so I didn't understand what ramblingpitchfork (otherwise known as Chris) was trying to communicate to me. Now that I am at home and have the time to carefully read through all of the posts (despite some interruptions from my wife), I see the smiley face with the message and I understand the message now.
I disagree with Fishmonger when he says that llig leahcim should be banned from this web site because, so far as I can tell, llig leahcim can back up his opinions with reasons based on plenty of practical, hands-on experience actually playing music (like myself and many other members of this web site).
And, last but not least, since my last name is Gray, I am always a shade of Gray whether or not I would like to be another color.
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
Indeed. Learning from recordings is equally unreliable, if not more so than sheet music. There are over fifty recording of the Salamanca listed here alone, the chances of finding a 'definitive' version is zero. Learning the version played by folk you know or trying to pick your favourite from several sources is the best way IMO, and that includes referring to sheet music if you can, and if learning from submissions here then it's a good idea always to check the comments for corrections or better versions http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/99/details
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
Sincerely held opinions are one thing. Llig has them and is entitled to them as I think he appears to know where he is coming from though some of us don't.
If you can't take the basic slagging that goes on in this site you haven't got a hope of surviving in a session in Ireland where 'friendly' banter such as 'sit there on that accordion' or such like is the order of the day. The tighter the group the worse the slagging of both instrument and player.
As to tunes and versions I can play for 2 to 3 hours non-stop with my local session. Travel a 100 miles and I might play half to 3/4 of the sets in a session. So learn what you can with the local lot, mosey out now and again to hear new stuff but once you start learning be prepared to give the rest of your life to it. There is no end.
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
Hi Steve. Thanks for comment. Just checked out your info page. I am slightly older than you and play a different instrument, flute, but I share you love of Talisker and its ilk. Anything west of Oban with peat and sea weed in it goes down fine.
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
I haven't read this entire post, but I agree with the opening statement thoroughly. If you go back to the beginning days of this site and read those old threads, the entire spirit was different, much more in the spirit of helpfulness, friendship, and comradery. Sometimes I can barely stand to read the discussions these days because of all the cynics who *know* they're right and seem to be put here to put everyone else in their place. I used to check in here a lot, but because if the negative vibes from thise site, I scan the weekly updates for anything that looks interesting (couldn't help myself on this one, since weebag voiced my exact thoughts). This site is a great resource, but the discussions have become redundant and tiresome. Not that I think this thread will change anything, but I'd like to see more smiles and nods (so to speak), get back to the spirit of the music.
Cheers,
Marty
The helpfulness from days gone by is, without a doubt, still present.
However, this is a very large session.The sheer number of discussion responses grows & grows & grows. Many of the old topics continue to be rehashed.
Hopefully the helpful members will not all be put off.
& new members will find they too have something to contribute.
Anyone who wants a better website, for traditional players, please ~ give us your best contribution.
Cheers!
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
The mustard board has grown to include all sorts of folks with all sorts of attitudes, like any diverse community.
Real-world sessions aren't always helpful and friendly. So it's no surprise this board reflects reality. And even the unhelpful here are still helpful--better to run into them here before facing them at a real session. Get your reactions sorted out virtually, then you'll be able to deal with it all more constructively down at the pub.
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
Might as well step in the fray. I'm not that shy.
If I remember this right, Fishmonger beat a fast exit the same way Woodie Guthrie might have. Sometimes the place you are is not so great ~ if you don't have that do - re - mi.
Cheers Fishmonger! Hope the move suits you. & I most certainly hope you find someone around Austin for exchanging tunes.
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
Thanks Kenny. I still use the site as a reference in my tune queries, but I found the discussions to be mostly cyclical with only occasional gems to surface now and then. But it's all to be expected in a forum where experienced and not-so-experienced players from all around the world as well as a host of varying personalities and temperaments are mixing together in a discordant verbal soup discussing the ins and outs of something that means so much to so many people.
How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
3 threads down Flying Fiddler hit the nail on the head. There are so many negative comments and unneccessary caustic remarks here that I am sure there must be many like Fiddler who will be reluctant to raise there head above the parapit for fear of it getting shot at.
I, like the next guy/gal, thoroughly enjoy the craic & banter that forums like this provide but I also look to gain and offer constructive advice when neccessary. If I want criticism I'll ask for it.
I do wish some of the self appointed trad pundit bullies would remove their heads from each others arses look around and see how they can encourage more site visitors to debate with constructive comments and not mock those with an alternative opinion.
There... that feels better
# Posted on May 27th 2009 by weebag
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
but this is where I go to research authentic ITM wind-ups, insults, and name calling! How am I supposed to properly berate a bodhranist without drawing heavily on llig's postings?
# Posted on May 27th 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
Balance is necessary.
On one hand, we have lots of feel good hippies looking to have a musical love-in with a music they just discovered and are looking to perhaps learn more about.
On the other, we have lots of grumpy die-hards resentful at the never ending parade of newbies who come and go, tromping all over what we love with their new-agey let's all hold hands and make happy friends time.
In between the balance is to be found, and the hippies and the grumps both have vital roles to play in creating a balanced center ground.
Also, having a sense of humor will greatly assist. An appreciation of the playful and friendly yet derogatory style of Irish humor and camaraderie known as 'slagging' will let a newbie go far.
You’ll also live longer and not get all upset about mean people on internet forums and in the backs of pubs grumbling “yer not doin it rite.” More often than not, the mean people have something quite important to say, in their own way. Certainly a lot more substantial and meaningful than "let's all be friends and make happy time".
I'll happily hold your hand and sing a folk song, but then I'll be looking for a long set of reels after. Balance.
# Posted on May 27th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
Sticks and stones...
Some people consider "stop playing the bodhran and take up a real instrument" to be a very constructive piece of advice. And I'm sure there are actually people who have followed this advice and and very happy with the result.
There seems to be this myth that the folk/trad world should be a touchy feely free for all where noone's feelings get hurt and everyone gets along.
If it is my belief that something someone is doing is not only daft, but potentially detrimental to others, should I withhold my criticism?
I'm a complete newbie to irish music (3 years and counting) and have never had anything less than very helpful comments from the mustard board.
Maybe people whose feelings often get hurt should consider the possibility that their detractors are right. Or ignore them.
# Posted on May 27th 2009 by Tirno
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
You must not frequent other music boards...much less the political ones and others.
This is rather tame...and unlike about 85% of the other boards, this one has value.
On others, even of an intellectual bent you have the borderline psychotics, (male or female) sweet young things who were or claim to be from your past, political crazies and just plain nasty people.
Even on our worst days (with the exception of the occasional random head case who signs up, wreaks a bit of havoc for a day or two and thankfully disappears to abusive a Viagra support group site or similar) our abuse-even about bodhran and bones players- is really freindly teasing.
Btw. We have had a couple of those exceptions I mentioned in the past two weeks. When the regulars here get their fill, of a useless poster and generate some umbrage, they either ridicule the smackposter to death, or ignore them until they go away.
Probably the best strategy.
# Posted on May 27th 2009 by zippydw
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
One of the problems with a text-based forum is that it is difficult to determine the context of someone's post, if there's a history behind it, and you don't know the history. So a lot of what might be teasing, slagging, sarcasm, or targeted negativity is difficult to understand without the context. After being on this forum for a good number of years, you have a pretty good idea of where most of the posts are coming from. You may choose to ignore some out of habit, and listen carefully to what other people say...
The emoticons can help you frame your posts a bit, so that they aren't misinterpreted, but that's not enough.
So instead of having knee-jerk reactions to the "negative comments and caustic remarks", don't take them personally, unless they were aimed directly at you. And even then, try to learn from their intent. It's pretty rare that the negativity on this board is there specifically to be rude - there's usually something to be learned from the content. And even if you're on the opposing side of a debate about a particular subject (say, ear vs. dots, for instance), a deeper understanding of the debate itself can be gained by listening to the reasons someone is so passionate about opposing your point of view...
# Posted on May 27th 2009 by Reverend
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
No "knee-jerk reaction" at all Reverand... You only have to look at the names that constantly contribute to this forum.. namely yours, zippy, swl,trucks etc. Not that many new names contribute.
Do you not think that if a more conciliatory tone was used we'd see a lot more traffic from those that feel alienated through inexperience to contribute....?
There have been threads where a legitimate question has been asked by a newbe only to be answered by a 1 line sarcastic comment.
Comment:- YES.
Sarcastic :- SAD & UNNECCESSARY
# Posted on May 27th 2009 by weebag
Somedays . . .
. . . this is thesession.org
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9J9rTZJBmw
Pat Benatar ;)
# Posted on May 27th 2009 by Random_notes
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
Sometimes when you try to be ironic and tongue-in-cheek in response to a comment which is intended to be equally ironic and tongue-in-cheek, people take it the wrong way, allow themselves to be very offended, and try to insult you in a very ugly way. All of which was completely unnecessary and needless.
# Posted on May 27th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
And what the feck do you mean by THAT fauxcelt
# Posted on May 27th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
lol@Pat Benatar - definitely a resemblance to this board. The board isn't as heavy on the hairspray, neon, and muscle shirts, but yeah, I see it.
As a newbie reading the board, I find most of the exchanges to be in humor. Some are curt or rude, but not the majority. I'm learning a lot from listening/reading. How else would I have known about sweaty session arse....90yr old trombone players in red spandex...Pat Benatar....the armies of insistent bodhran players?
There are more perils to ITM than I ever imagined. ;)
# Posted on May 27th 2009 by clementine 72
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
I actually meant the Pat Benatar bit. ' We are young. '
Sessions have been around for some time, but we have not.
It's still early to say what the internet forum tradition is, or what it may become.
Sometimes I read where good members have been driven off, or otherwise choose not to contribute. I hope they are fine (or better) where ever they are now. As for the rest of you ~ why not consider the discussions as similar to playing a set of tunes?
And when you play a tune what do you do; what do you not do? I'm guessing you might be listening, joining in with the tunes you know . . . or you might be tapping away on your drum.
oops! no analogy intended. Just being silly.
Cheers!
# Posted on May 27th 2009 by Random_notes
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
I agree that there is a certain core of seriously insensitive assholes here. Bullies and elitists who clearly think they're keeping the floor swept.
How does having a sense of humor help when you're getting ignored, made fun of, and berated all at the same time.
AND FOR FECK'S SAKE, QUIT LAMBASTING PEOPLE WHO ASK ABOUT SHEET MUSIC ON A SHEET MUSIC SITE!
# Posted on May 27th 2009 by awildman
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
but. . . but. . .but. . . isn't slagging part of the tradition?
If one can't take the heat. . .
# Posted on May 27th 2009 by lastnitesfun
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
Hi awildman, how can I be of assistance? I haven't come across you before, but I do know that calling people 'assholes...bullies and elitists' while YELLING IN ALL CAPS is a great and friendly way to call attention to yourself and get the help you are in need of.
Incidentally, my post is an excellent example of keeping a sense of humor in the face of such civilized and intelligent behavior. Sarcasm helps too!
# Posted on May 27th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
it is specifically on a sheet music site that people must be constantly reminded of their peril.
You're going to tell me that I'm being elitist, but only people who know a lot about irish music and don't really need it anyway should be allowed anywhere near sheetmusic.
Of course "allowed" is not the right word. Anyone who want's to use sheetmusic is perfectly entitled to, just as there is no law against throwing money down the toilet or picking a fight with the biggest guy in the pub. It's just *friendly* people would pull you to one side and say that it's not really a good idea. That's exactly what happens here.
# Posted on May 27th 2009 by Tirno
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
What is so difficult about ears first, eyes second? It's just common sense. I can't tell you how many times I've chucked the dots from here because they are WRONG.
Take the Salamanca. The version posted is all mucked up in the B part, if you've learned it from The Bothy Band, that is. In the Comments, Llig has the ABCs for the Bothy version listed there.
So I play the Salamanca all the time, finally the fluter wants to learn it, he goes and learns the dots, we play it together, boom. Train wreck on the B part. I play him The Bothy clip, I play mine with them, "See?" I says.
Sure enough, in the Comments, there's the ABC for the Bothy B part.
Your honor, there are a million cases like this in the big city, we the been here forever gang have seen it a million times. There is only one final judge of any set of dots for this music:
Your ears.
Why?
Because there very may well be 50 versions of the same tune, and unless you are listening and playing based on what you are hearing at all times, you will only be able to play one version of any given tune, the one you learned in stone from some dots, probably from here, and probably WRONG as all get out.
Now, is that mean? I am being a big ol' meany? Did I hurt anyone's feelings?
If so, they're being ridiculous, because these are just the facts, ma'am.
Gee newbies, I used to be one of the nice guys too. I still am, really! Still crazy, but nice!
# Posted on May 27th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
"And what the f**k did I mean by that?" I meant exactly what I said with no other meanings intended. Nor was I was trying to offend anyone. This discussion reminded me of something which happened to me earlier this year, that's all.
# Posted on May 27th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
Why do I have to be offensive or be offended?
# Posted on May 27th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
I was told as a kid that before saying anything, I should ask myself, "Is it kind? Is it true? Is it necessary?"
I think it is a very good maxim in real life.
But The Session is not real life as customarily defined. It is a warp field in a parallel universe. It centres on an activity whose necessity is regarded by most as highly dubious, and whose practitioners are sometimes even seen as strangers to the truth.
Therefore, the environment both promotes and excuses the practice of untrammelled fantasy at every level of discourse.
Kindness I would not dismiss. But I reserve the kind / true / necessary formula for serious questions and eager newbies. Of the latter I tell myself, "Be gentle and literal with him / her / it, for he / she / it is but an Earthlet with one foot still in reality and unversed in the droll and savage banter of the adept."
Otherwise it's open season. Apologies though if I've got up anyone's nose. Nor have I had any wish or reason to slag anyone off here. (Though I use other sites whose tone can be a lot more vitriolic than here. Some of this may rub off on me when I turn from those sites to this one...)
# Posted on May 27th 2009 by nicholas
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
Take the rude remarks with a grain of salt, thicken your skin and enjoy the humor. I've learned many tunes and received good advice from this site. Thanks to all who contribute.
# Posted on May 27th 2009 by Leendah
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
But weebag, my point is that there is something to be learned by the 1 line sarcastic comments. Things that might be learned:
• Maybe you just opened a can of worms, or a topic that has been discussed ad nauseam, so maybe a site search is in order.
• Maybe you asked a question that experienced people find pointless, and you should examine the content of your question.
• Maybe you asked a question in such a manner that makes you appear to be a troll, looking to stir things up, and so maybe you should clarify why you're asking the question.
Just a few possibilities... Granted, it's hard to read that kind of information into a 1 word answer, and the poster might want to clarify their 1 word answer a bit more.
Another example of knee-jerk reaction is that people seem to get bent out of shape whenever llig asks the legitimate question of why you want the dots of something if you have a recording. That's a legitimate question, which has some potentially legitimate answers, but people get ultra-defensive, and start ragging on him for his abruptness. My point is that instead of lashing out at his response, try learning from the message, *even if you disagree* with it!
# Posted on May 27th 2009 by Reverend
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
An enormous problem with text-based interaction (internet boards, letters, postcards, and jaysus hasnt everyone lost a friend or two to an ambiguous text) is that you cant see the whites of their eyes. A gentle slagging, or even a mild reprimand comes across as vicious abuse in the absence of the twinkle in the eye or the little grin.
You have to remember we're all sitting, most probably alone, in front of a computer, reading about and discussing a pursuit that few of our family and friends consider in any way interesting. Thats rifle in the belltower territory. What makes this site and other good ones different is that people are aware that the other contributors are people just like them. Sometimes serious and passionate; sometimes having the craic.
# Posted on May 27th 2009 by corkonian
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
Ive been reading here for about a year, and with very few exceptions the comments are both civil and helpful.
Criticism is not by definition negative, and caustic is in the ear of the beholder.
If you are easily risen, just imagine your interlocutor in his or her jocks.
# Posted on May 27th 2009 by corkonian
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
Actually, if llig were to be banned from this board, this board would be a far far better place. He has no useful advice or opinions. He doesn't keep me from playing this music the way I want o play it. He only keeps me from posting here more often.
He's a rude, obnoxious, soulless eejit who probably needs to change his diapers more often.
I so wish I had the opportunity to punch him in the face. Too bad Edinburgh is so far away from Austin.
Grrrrr....
# Posted on May 28th 2009 by Fishmonger
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
fortunetly on so many levels Austin is far away from Scotland.
I don't agree with Llig all the time but even if I disagreed with him all the time ,he has the right to believe in what he likes,as I have.
Even in the USA where I assume Austin is,you have this right.
So how does he prevent you from posting? Mind control?
# Posted on May 28th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
I am going to positvely encourage Michael to post far more if it keeps you from posting here more often. I know who I'd rather listen to.
# Posted on May 28th 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: Handbagmorgengrauen
So one member here is quite happy to punch some other member but is afraid of posting more often all because of the same member?
Illogical,captain.
' Internet Tough Guy:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=internet%20tough%20guy
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler '
Thanks,SWFL-I knew that link would come in handy.
# Posted on May 28th 2009 by biggus dave
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
Well, it seems as if the posse is all here. Now, how about the sheriff?
# Posted on May 28th 2009 by awildman
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
tee hee, it's good job I'm a "pussy liberal fag".
# Posted on May 28th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
Post more, Michael, post more. Lend me a fag while you're at it, could you, you liberal old pussy.
# Posted on May 28th 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
Can I really be the only person who detected something subliminally Llig-like in "illogical, captain...?"
# Posted on May 28th 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
"I, like the next guy/gal, thoroughly enjoy the craic & banter that forums like this provide but I also look to gain and offer constructive advice when neccessary. If I want criticism I'll ask for it."- weebag
If everyone only listened to the criticism they asked for they might never progress..in anything..
I'm not even goin to comment on the name -weebag- if u have one I feel bad for ya..
All these door serious phuckin threads with no basis in crak or the tunes..The mustard board is going to the dogs
# Posted on May 28th 2009 by Trucks_Mulligan
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
Flaunt it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TctjzEeNnI4&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.vidj.info%2Fvideos%2Fshow_video.php%3Fvideo_id%3DTctjzEeNnI4&feature=player_embedded
@ 19 seconds in.
# Posted on May 28th 2009 by biggus dave
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
one of Mel Brook's best ! (Young Frankenstein being my all time fave)
I agree w/ Zero Mostel.
# Posted on May 28th 2009 by clementine 72
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
Yes indeed,the truly incomparable Zero Mostel.That still cracks me up each time I see it.
In fact,in these times,this 'End of Days',even,it's the only thing that keeps me going.That and the inebriated naval commentator from the 1930s. ( http://uffish.net/archives/000327.html )
# Posted on May 28th 2009 by biggus dave
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
lmao- "the fleet's gone! it's disappeared!!" Priceless.
# Posted on May 28th 2009 by clementine 72
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
Fauxcelt:
I'd like to think you noticed the smiley in my earlier post, and realised I was sending up exactly the attitudes that you were talking about. But I can't read that into your subsequent replies.
If you have time, scroll back up, reread your earlier post and my answer which immediately followed it, and try to catch onto what my post meant in the context of your prior message and the appended smiley.
Cheers - Chris
# Posted on May 28th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
Fishmonger:
>Actually, if llig were to be banned from this board, <snip>
Phooey.
Agree with him or not, Llig is easily one of the most interesting posters to this board. I rarely agree 100% with him, but I'm more often closer to his position that not (I'm just a more wishy whade of gray than Llig's pure white, or is it black?).
When I'm behind and come across a gigantic thread, I skim it by searching for the certain user names to get to the core of what the discussion is. The first name I search for is Llig.
Someone willing so put forward an unambiguous position is invaluable in a discussion forum.
Sure Llig can be abrupt, but I don't recall him personalising debates. What I have found unpleasant and bordering on the offensive is the recent spate of posters targeting Llig personally. On occasion (and I'm not acusing you of this Fishmonger) it has seemed orchastrated.
Aim at the issues not the contributers to the discussion.
- chris
# Posted on May 28th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
Well I certainly agree that they seem to be orchastrated. Or castrated.
# Posted on May 28th 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
llig can back his opinions up with reasons, clearly stated. He's good value. If branded congenitally or personally by him as a pillock or a feckin' eejit, endure for a while the lash of the hailstorm and anon the wisdom of llig will shine upon you. Well, may.
# Posted on May 28th 2009 by nicholas
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
If you take up goat-beating (or any other non-melody instrument) as a quick entry into playing along with the speed-merchants, without wanting to do any practise, you deserve all you get - if you don't get it on this site, you will get it in your first session.
# Posted on May 29th 2009 by geoffwright
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
When I was first reading through the posts on this discussion thread, I was at work and I was either suddenly interrupted and/or the computer which I use at work wasn't sophisticated enough to include smiley faces with messages so I didn't understand what ramblingpitchfork (otherwise known as Chris) was trying to communicate to me. Now that I am at home and have the time to carefully read through all of the posts (despite some interruptions from my wife), I see the smiley face with the message and I understand the message now.
I disagree with Fishmonger when he says that llig leahcim should be banned from this web site because, so far as I can tell, llig leahcim can back up his opinions with reasons based on plenty of practical, hands-on experience actually playing music (like myself and many other members of this web site).
And, last but not least, since my last name is Gray, I am always a shade of Gray whether or not I would like to be another color.
# Posted on May 30th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
leave the Llig alone, he is excellent value. I for one enjoy his posts even if he is " never only partially right"
Steve
# Posted on May 31st 2009 by selston steve
Re: The Bothy Band and the Salamanca
What if you learned the Salamanca pre-Bothy Band? There was ITM BBB (before Bothy Band). Would that version be considered authentic?
# Posted on May 31st 2009 by stevekeene
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
Indeed. Learning from recordings is equally unreliable, if not more so than sheet music. There are over fifty recording of the Salamanca listed here alone, the chances of finding a 'definitive' version is zero. Learning the version played by folk you know or trying to pick your favourite from several sources is the best way IMO, and that includes referring to sheet music if you can, and if learning from submissions here then it's a good idea always to check the comments for corrections or better versions http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/99/details
# Posted on May 31st 2009 by bogman
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
Sincerely held opinions are one thing. Llig has them and is entitled to them as I think he appears to know where he is coming from though some of us don't.
If you can't take the basic slagging that goes on in this site you haven't got a hope of surviving in a session in Ireland where 'friendly' banter such as 'sit there on that accordion' or such like is the order of the day. The tighter the group the worse the slagging of both instrument and player.
As to tunes and versions I can play for 2 to 3 hours non-stop with my local session. Travel a 100 miles and I might play half to 3/4 of the sets in a session. So learn what you can with the local lot, mosey out now and again to hear new stuff but once you start learning be prepared to give the rest of your life to it. There is no end.
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by awwilko
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
Well said, old chap.
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
Hi Steve. Thanks for comment. Just checked out your info page. I am slightly older than you and play a different instrument, flute, but I share you love of Talisker and its ilk. Anything west of Oban with peat and sea weed in it goes down fine.
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by awwilko
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
I haven't read this entire post, but I agree with the opening statement thoroughly. If you go back to the beginning days of this site and read those old threads, the entire spirit was different, much more in the spirit of helpfulness, friendship, and comradery. Sometimes I can barely stand to read the discussions these days because of all the cynics who *know* they're right and seem to be put here to put everyone else in their place. I used to check in here a lot, but because if the negative vibes from thise site, I scan the weekly updates for anything that looks interesting (couldn't help myself on this one, since weebag voiced my exact thoughts). This site is a great resource, but the discussions have become redundant and tiresome. Not that I think this thread will change anything, but I'd like to see more smiles and nods (so to speak), get back to the spirit of the music.
Cheers,
Marty
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by MartySmith
Contribution
The helpfulness from days gone by is, without a doubt, still present.
However, this is a very large session.The sheer number of discussion responses grows & grows & grows. Many of the old topics continue to be rehashed.
Hopefully the helpful members will not all be put off.
& new members will find they too have something to contribute.
Anyone who wants a better website, for traditional players, please ~ give us your best contribution.
Cheers!
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by Random_notes
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
The mustard board has grown to include all sorts of folks with all sorts of attitudes, like any diverse community.
Real-world sessions aren't always helpful and friendly. So it's no surprise this board reflects reality. And even the unhelpful here are still helpful--better to run into them here before facing them at a real session. Get your reactions sorted out virtually, then you'll be able to deal with it all more constructively down at the pub.
# Posted on June 1st 2009 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
There are basically two things that put me off contributing here:
1) people with little or no experience using this forum to put down established masters of ITM
2) people using insults to express their opinions
There are of course other delineations, but those are the two from which they all seem to stem.
# Posted on June 2nd 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
And on a return visit to this thread, I've determined this board is purdy much useless!
P.S. Hey Phantom, I've left the Bay Area. You can have that stinkin' sh*te hole all to yourself.
... where's my mandolin?
# Posted on June 5th 2009 by Fishmonger
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
(I've never met Fishmonger, thankfully, but after reading his comments here, the Bay Area is breathing a collective sigh of relief)
# Posted on June 5th 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
You said it Mr. Button! The air quality improved very noticeably when monger left the state.
# Posted on June 5th 2009 by leoj
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
Might as well step in the fray. I'm not that shy.
If I remember this right, Fishmonger beat a fast exit the same way Woodie Guthrie might have. Sometimes the place you are is not so great ~ if you don't have that do - re - mi.
Cheers Fishmonger! Hope the move suits you. & I most certainly hope you find someone around Austin for exchanging tunes.
# Posted on June 5th 2009 by Random_notes
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
I didn't think the Bay Area was as bad as Fishmonger seems to think it is and I have visited there three times.
# Posted on June 6th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
Welcome back, PB - you've been missed. [ But you haven't missed much ].
# Posted on June 6th 2009 by Kenny
Re: How to alienate contributors in 1 easy lesson...!!!
Thanks Kenny. I still use the site as a reference in my tune queries, but I found the discussions to be mostly cyclical with only occasional gems to surface now and then. But it's all to be expected in a forum where experienced and not-so-experienced players from all around the world as well as a host of varying personalities and temperaments are mixing together in a discordant verbal soup discussing the ins and outs of something that means so much to so many people.
# Posted on June 6th 2009 by Phantom Button