Hi - I'm a newbie here and would love your input. I read over some of the previous discussions about strings but am still undecided. I have Helicore strings on my violin and the A is uraveling. I would like something a bit warmer, as my violin is very bright and loud; the Helicore seems to make it harsh and brassy while dampening its sweet undertones. The violin is old, highly arched, German.
Based on what I've read, many of you like Evah P's, but these will likely make the violin brighter, correct? I've put Obligatos, Warchals, Larsens and Corelli Crystals on the list of possiblities. I've heard mixed things about Dominants.
Also, I'm trying to increase the speed of my reels and am working on short rolls. How much responsiveness will I lose if I switch from steel to synthetic core strings?
Guess that was more than one question, but anyway - I'd love to hear what has worked for you. Thanks in advance!
I'm on my first set of Obligatos and really like them. Very warm, no lack of response, that I can tell. I liked Dominants (after a week of settling in, anyway--they're atrocious until they're settled in) but I like Obligatos better.
As for fast reels--I think good technique is most important, brand of strings less so.
IMO Pirastro are pretty much the best strings available. I Like gut strings, Synthetics dont sound so good IMO . but you do gain in other areas:stability, longevity[?] . I do use steel strings for my electric. I think therefore the obligatos would probably be your best bet for your fiddle.
You can of course get a few A strings to try? as you only 'need' to replace the A, and those A strings can still be used as emergency strings in future. Besides every fiddler needs some spare A and E strings!
Gostrings dot com are the cheapest and very fast delivery. from the States to Ireland in less than a week.
Clementine, strings respond differently on different fiddles, so it's hard to recommend one make or model.
In general, though, Obligatos and Thomastik's "Vision" (much better than their Dominants) strings are on the warmer end of the scale. If you try the Visions, just buy the G, D and A strings, and then use an inexpensive Lezner Goldbrokat E string. (The Vision Es tend to be harsh and brittle sounding.) Of all the models in the Vision line, I like the Vision Titanium "Soloists" the best.
The responsiveness of a string matters more on the bow end of things. Whether you use steel core or synthetic core shouldn't really affect your short rolls. You may notice it more in your bowed triplets.
A soundpost/bridge adjustment will do more for the brightness of a fiddle than strings will. Get thee to a competent luthier.
My personal favorite strings for my fiddle are Warchal Karneols. Very responsive and clear. The other fiddle I used to have was rather focused and a bit brilliant and it loved Obligatos. Your fiddle might benefit from the warmness of Crystals, although they seem to like a heavy bowing hand. Tonicas are a very good string for the money.
If I had your fiddle, I'd definitely invest in a good wound E string to go with the new set..
Thanks for the replies. Obligatos sound like a fairly good bet, and I will look into the Vision strings too. Good to know about the Goldbrokat E. I think all of my strings need to be replaced, otherwise I would buy just an A string. I need to have the pegs replaced as well, so when I take the fiddle to a luthier, I will definitely have the soundpost checked.
awildman - how long do the Karneols usually last for you? I have heard that they go dead very quickly. My bow hand is on the light side, so perhaps Crystals aren't the ideal choice.
Question - is it true that a high tension string on a high arched instrument can squash the sound? I'm new to all of this.
I can see that experimenting w/ strings may be an expensive process....Thanks loannas for the internet source.
Karneols are just fine as long as one keeps the rosin wiped off. Mine are 3 months old and doing great.
If you really want bang for your buck, go with Tonicas and a Kaplan wound E string. This would be a better combination for a bright fiddle like yours, especially under your ear.
Tonicas are good strings and work well on many types of fiddles. Whether your fiddle "projects" or not is up to its construction, not which strings you put on it. Unless you start messing around with light gauge strings. I'd stick with mediums for now.
Clementine - I love rambling on about strings so here goes: I got on well with Tonicas but I've tried lots of strings and it depends on the fiddle. At first I got a bit confused about the terminology - I think strings are described as either darker or warmer and dark is the opposite of bright (so warmer means brighter...I think...!) I have a high-arched old German fiddle that I keep at my place of work for lunchtime practice, and it was painfully bright in the treble and lacking projection on the lower strings. It had Infeld reds on it but I wanted to try some wound gut, and put Golden Spiral Solo strings on. They lasted nearly two years (which I didn't expect) and transformed the sound - sonorous and balanced across the whole register (but they did need a lot of retuning from the pegs, which was also good for me in a practice situation but not so good at a session). I think lower-tensioned strings bring out the best in a fiddle like this because they allow the top to vibrate more. I also have a French fiddle which was doing OK with Tonicas, but perhaps sounded a bit muddy, so I thought I'd try the Warchal brilliants. I put them on for a few days, but just didn't think they were suited, so I took them off and put them on the German fiddle as the Golden Spirals really were a bit tired, and they really sound superb on it. I put Evahs on the French fiddle and I'm very pleased with that too - it sounded a bit too woody before, but they suit it fantastically so I'm going to stick with them on that one. Tonicas: I much preferred them to Dominants - I'm sure they'll do you a turn. I've also tried Helicores but found them quiet, but they are very popular and reliable.
thanks Richard - very interesting! From reading about the Brilliants, seems like your high strings would have become even brighter. Sounds like they worked out really well for you though. Maybe I'll buy two different types of strings to try since the Tonica's aren't too spendy.
Our fiddles sound similar except mine is bright across the entire register...and w/ the Heliocores on I feel like I'm going deaf in one ear! A while back a luthier suggested a gut string to warm up the sound. I sort of dismissed the idea since I understand they are slower to respond. Did you find that to be the case in your sessions? How frequently did you have to retune?
In my experience, most strings take days or a week or two to settle in. Judging them in a single day or two is not giving them a fair chance on your fiddle.
Also, as I understand the terms used for tone, "warm" and "dark" tend to be on the same end of the spectrum, whereas "bright" and "brilliant" are on the other end of the spectrum.
"Warm" or "dark" tones tend to feature lots of overtones, so the sound is more complex, sometimes to the point of being less focused, or even fuzzy or muddy. But a good "dark" string is both complex and focused. On my fiddles, the Visions and Evah Pirazzis both meet that description. In a steel-core string, Helicores and Prims also do the job well.
Clementine - I found the wound gut strings often went sharp as I played so needed adjusting, and you're supposed to tune gut strings from the peg. This meant that the pegs got a lot of use, and work so much better, plus my skill at tuning by ear improved. Each time after about 10 mins the strings settled for the whole playing session, but then tended to have gone flat again the following day. Yes I do agree with Will that "warm" and "dark" are the same end of the spectrum - when I was first buying strings I wasn't sure what to expect from the term "dark" - it's a word that has shades of gothic mystery about it! Perhaps I was thinking strings are like lightbulbs - the warmer they are the brighter!
I think a lot of people keep changing their strings 'cause they are not very good at getting the sound they want. I think a good player can get warm, dark, bright, whatever out of a half decent, well set up, fiddle with any decent strings and a decent bow.
I've used tomastic dominants for 25 years. I think there's a combination of the player learning how to play them, learning what range of sounds you can get out of them, and the fiddle itself becoming acustomed to them. A lot of people say they find tomastic dominants hard to play. I think this is because they are capable of a large range and that innitially, that range is difficult to control. And it's more than likely that a lot of good strings are the same.
I say choose a set and play them for five years at least before you give up on them. Get used to them, to what they do. And let your fiddle get used to them.
And resist the urge to persuade your fiddle doctor to have the soundpost too close to the G string just because you are after that poncy illusive warm/dark thing. All that happens there is you make the fiddle quiter and you'll lose the ability to sing out with it.
If you want dark, learn how to play dark. Faffing around buying different strings everytime you change them is just gonna hold your playing back.
It's an old canard that gut strings are "slow to respond". The fact is that you need to adjust your bowing technique to these strings, and then they'll do anything you want. Listen to the great violinists of the past - Heifetz and his predecessors, all using gut strings (except for the E), or a good baroque ensemble on full throttle, again using gut strings (but now including a gut E), and you'll hear what a gut setup is capable of in terms of speed and tone.
I would pretty much agree with llig’s post (maybe slightly diluted - your choice of diluting agent). To understand how to get a variety of sounds out of any instrument you have to live with it for a good long time without changing anything. That’s the only way you’ll ever learn what goes into producing a range of tones and effects. Five years may not be an exaggeration for lots of people. Once you have that understanding, experimentation will be immensely more fruitful. But, as usual, the journey may prove more rewarding than the destination, and you might just decide that you don’t need to change anything about the instrument.
When I was teaching guitar, I always encouraged students to explore the instrument every day. Pluck here, pluck there, dig in, back off. Find out how it wants to sing. Find out how many different voices it can have. Make it imitate other instruments. Get sensual with it.
Before I could afford a decent instrument, I played a cheap one for nearly ten years. Nearly all of my learning about tone came from trying to make that cheap instrument sing.
I agree with the comments about technique, and developing that is of course the hardest part, esp. if you're trying to teach yourself. But I would rather have a challenging process/unforgiving fiddle...in fact when I try other people's violins they seem easy to play after this one. The strings need to be replaced anyway, so I figure I might as well find some that enhance the instrument's pleasant qualities. But I won't spend inordinate amounts of time or money fretting over it.
You describe your fiddle as very bright and loud. It sounds like a good fiddle. Good fiddles are not necessarily easy to play, but they have range within them. When you pic up someone else's "darker" sounding fiddle, what you are actually getting is a muted sound, the top harmonics are cut off. What you need to do is to learn how to cut the top harmonics off the sound of your fiddle by your technique. The muted fiddle will always sound muted, your's has range
Last night I took my gut-strung Jay Haide (Eudoxa G & D, Chorda A - plain gut, and a Pirastro E). to a session and someone remarked how well it projected. On the last occasion it was strung with Visions and I remember feeling I had to work to get the sound out. The gut felt effortless by comparison. Same number of players in both sessions - about ten. Same mix of instruments – 3 fiddles and more or less equal numbers of melodions and concertinas, and a very good guitarist who knows how to play music.
Thanks llig - an experienced player once remarked that the fiddle has a good tone and that he wished his fiddle was that loud. Unfortunately for me that means every squeak and side noise is amplified. Which again boils down to technique. There seem to be a lot of competing overtones, so I guess the fiddle is complex, as well as bright.
Gut strings...hmm. Is it typical to get wound G&D strings and plain gut A's? Are Oliv's a good string? So many choices.....
Normally all wound I think . If I recall olives are the best but eudoxa do me fine. because Im using a job lot of strings from a luthiers clearance I am using plain gut on one fiddle, but I prefer the wound version, better for sliding up to notes.
A plain gut A (Chorda) works better for me than a Euxoda A - but that may be just my fiddle setup. The Chorda seems to have more richness in its overtones than the Eudoxa, although the Eudoxa is superior in this respect to most other strings. I've no problems in sliding or moving around on the plain A.
One interesting point is that using a plain steel E with a Chorda A sometimes results in ghosting (but not necessarily squeaks). My local violin shop is aware of this problem and advised using a Pirastro wound E, which worked. The only other alternative would have been a plain gut E - nice to play on but need replacing every couple of months. Btw, plain gut strings are the least expensive of high quality strings - it's centuries-old technology.
If you've never used a plain gut string the first job is to learn how to make the loop at the tailpiece end. Again, the kind luthier at the violin shop showed me the trick and I made a loose mock-up of the knot in ordinary string to remind me. Eudoxa G and Ds come with a loop end, but there's a choice of loop or ball end for the Eudoxa A.
Ah, llig. I'm not sure what you're on about. A bright fiddle blocks out the lower overtones, but it doesn't? Hogwash. If overtones are dampened, they're dampened, bright or dark. I think you're confusing bright with focused. Let it also be noted that such terms are ridiculously subjective, quite often to the point of being useless. Focused, brilliant-type fiddles are generally neither bright nor dark, and are capable of producing varying tonal characteristics up to a player's abilities. Generally, decent fiddles are pretty focused, and well-balanced tonally. Maybe we don't disagree as much as differ in terminology.
I do agree about constantly changing strings. Stick with something that works.
I think perhaps the A string is wearing away which might explain the roughness I have noticed recently...
Any one tried Passione strings?
i doubt Im going to need to buy strings in the foreseeable future !
In my fiddle case I have;
E
1 pirstro olive E
2 wound eudoxa
4 wound lezner.
A
6 pirastro gold, plain gut A
, 4 eudoxa
2 pirstro black label.
D
2 Eudoxa D,
3 unnamed wound gut D,
5 Fisoma D
G
16 copper wound Hopf Gs
2 eudoxa Gs
C
14 hopf C,
4 Pirastro black label C
7 gold C's
So thats 7 spare E.s 12 spare As, 10 spare D, 18 G and 25 spare C strings!!! LOL
Apart from the E's I got them around 1£ each, which is why I bought so many!
The Cheapest place on line for these G and C strings [Gostrings dot com cant recomend them highly enough they have a massive selection .] is 20 and 25 $ each. Normally retailing at 25 to 30 £ each.!!!
I see the chorda plain gut As are 8.45$ compared with 13.40 for the wound eudoxa.... Yes, I play a 5 string fiddle, so I buy viola strings with a violin top E with a fine tuner.
You didn't say so. I said so. You were saying that a bright fiddle was capable of playing dark, but not the other way around. I disagree. There are two ends of this spectrum, with one being dark and the other end being bright. You're saying that the left extreme is capable of reproducing the right extreme but that the right extreme is not capable or reproducing the left extreme. I say that you're confusing focus/brilliance for brightness. Brilliance is NOT part of the dark/bright spectrum, it's a completely different tonal quality.
Hmmm, semantics eh. I'm confusing brilliance with brightness.
Lets look at it this way: There are fiddles that are are merely very toppy, scratchy, nasty, with no warmth to them. Clementine's fiddle could be one of these, but I don't think so, they way it's described. And there are fiddles that are more bottomy. They are often described as "dark sounding", but really it's just a lack of higher frequency overtones. It's usual that the carving is not so good, the wood is left a little thick, and the joints are over-glued. They are always quiet and if you try to push them, the sounds just falls to bits. Some people say they sound warm, I'd say they sound dead.
This latter kind of fiddle is very popular with fiddlers either new to the fiddle and this music or just not very good. These instruments are not expensive (because they are not very good) and relatively easy to get a clean sound from (if not clear). You come across them a lot as cherished instruments that people's Grandfather's made.
And then there's good fiddles. You can't expect a begginer to get a good sound out of one. You have to fight them a bit, tame them. Yes they are responsive, responsive to mistakes.
The same is true of violas. Fiddlers new to the viola prefer the "dark" ones. It's a sound they expect from a viola and they are cheep and easy to play. Good violas are bright as buttons and require a whoie extra level of effort.
Then we do agree. We're just using two different paths to arrive at the same conclusion.
BTW, Clem, strings only really make a difference from a (very) few feet away, and mostly under the ear. While what you hear under your ear is certainly important, it won't make any real difference in your playing, nor will most people across the room notice any difference from your other strings.
yep my violin does have depth and warmth to it, not a tinny, nasty sound. And yes, unfortunately it's sensitive to mistakes. I find it interesting - the language we use to describe sound...how we end up relying on our other senses. The terms can be so subjective.
all I'm after is a better sound under my ear, really. The volume is such that I end up turning my ear away as I play or playing more softly. My dog usually flees the room, but that might be more of a testament to my techique. ;)
If I get a plain gut string I'll definitely go to the local shop and see if they can show me how to make the loop.
Clementine, I'll have a go at describing the making of the loop I use for my gut strings:
Firstly, some plain gut strings have the peg end coloured; you obviously don't go tying knots in that!
1 Take the tailpiece end and make a simple knot quite near the end. Tighten it.
2 Make another similar knot loosely a short distance up the string from the first. Make sure that it is loose enough to form a little loop of itself.
3 Pass the first knot through that little loop.
4 Tighten the second knot so that its little loop contracts and prevents the first knot from pulling through. You now have a loop at the end of the string. The trick is to have this loop large enough for the string to pass through in step 5, but not too large.
5 Insert the loop you have made downwards through the appropriate aperture in the tailpiece and draw it towards the bridge.
6 Take the peg end of the string and insert it upwards through the loop.
7 Pull on the string so that the string is firmly tied round the end of the tailpiece.
8 Insert the peg end of the string in the peg and tune up in the usual manner.
Note that a new gut string will be quite stiff and knot making will feel awkward, so I advise de-stiffening it by bending the last 1-2 inches around with your fingers before you start making the knots.
A few more tips:
When winding the string round the peg you should have 3 or 4 windings (no more) when the string is up to playing pitch. Try to get the windings close together but not touching the inside of the pegbox, otherwise turning the peg will be difficult and the string will probably eventually break in that area.
Because gut strings are always tuned from the peg it is a good idea to have the peg positioned so that when the string is at pitch the player should be able to see the whole of one side of the peg grip face-on - not at an angle or edge-on. The reason for this is to make it easy for the player to tune the peg while bowing the string in the playing position. Believe me, this is the most efficient way to tune gut strings. The problem is getting the right length of string wound round the peg for you to see the peg-grip face-on. You'll have to experiment. Detension the string, and unwind the peg sufficiently for you to pull a short length of string through - try about 1/4 inch. If that doesn't work, pull out a further 1/4 inch.
And always tune up to pitch - not down.
For more details of this way of tuning see Todd Ehle's excellent violin teaching videos on YouTube (google his name).
Because you'll be tuning from the pegs they'll have to be in good condition and turn easily. Don't worry about the peg slipping because the tension of gut strings is a lot lower than that of other strings.
As with all new strings, lubricate the grooves in the bridge and the nut at the pegbox end with a soft pencil lead (4B or 6B).
In order to get familiar with making the knots and loop in the string I recommend trying it out first with a piece of ordinary string of similar thickness to the violin string you'll be working with.
lazyhound - I've seen some other Todd Ehle instructional videos and thought they were great. According to my luthier, I need new pegs, so I think I will have them replaced first, and then try out the gut strings. Thanks for writing out the steps - very helpful!
lonannas - I will definitely look into the peg paste - sounds like it makes things much easier.
Hill's Peg Dope in a lipstick/chapstick type tube is what good luthiers use. They avoid such products as Ardsley's Peg drops. Hill's is designed to ease the action, without being either sticky or slippery. It is not a miracle cure, and will not fix poorly fitted or worn pegs.
Yes I do recall researching the best peg dope and hill was the name that came up. Its not sticky or gunky I use it on all my fiddles It is an excellent product.
not sure about the perfection pegs either...interesting concept though. I'm putting off getting new pegs because I have to ship the fiddle away for repair. It will be missed. **sniff**
a string question
a string question
Hi - I'm a newbie here and would love your input. I read over some of the previous discussions about strings but am still undecided. I have Helicore strings on my violin and the A is uraveling. I would like something a bit warmer, as my violin is very bright and loud; the Helicore seems to make it harsh and brassy while dampening its sweet undertones. The violin is old, highly arched, German.
Based on what I've read, many of you like Evah P's, but these will likely make the violin brighter, correct? I've put Obligatos, Warchals, Larsens and Corelli Crystals on the list of possiblities. I've heard mixed things about Dominants.
Also, I'm trying to increase the speed of my reels and am working on short rolls. How much responsiveness will I lose if I switch from steel to synthetic core strings?
Guess that was more than one question, but anyway - I'd love to hear what has worked for you. Thanks in advance!
# Posted on May 17th 2009 by clementine 72
Re: a string question
I'm on my first set of Obligatos and really like them. Very warm, no lack of response, that I can tell. I liked Dominants (after a week of settling in, anyway--they're atrocious until they're settled in) but I like Obligatos better.
As for fast reels--I think good technique is most important, brand of strings less so.
# Posted on May 17th 2009 by John Galt
Re: a string question
IMO Pirastro are pretty much the best strings available. I Like gut strings, Synthetics dont sound so good IMO . but you do gain in other areas:stability, longevity[?] . I do use steel strings for my electric. I think therefore the obligatos would probably be your best bet for your fiddle.
You can of course get a few A strings to try? as you only 'need' to replace the A, and those A strings can still be used as emergency strings in future. Besides every fiddler needs some spare A and E strings!
Gostrings dot com are the cheapest and very fast delivery. from the States to Ireland in less than a week.
# Posted on May 17th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: a string question
Clementine, strings respond differently on different fiddles, so it's hard to recommend one make or model.
In general, though, Obligatos and Thomastik's "Vision" (much better than their Dominants) strings are on the warmer end of the scale. If you try the Visions, just buy the G, D and A strings, and then use an inexpensive Lezner Goldbrokat E string. (The Vision Es tend to be harsh and brittle sounding.) Of all the models in the Vision line, I like the Vision Titanium "Soloists" the best.
The responsiveness of a string matters more on the bow end of things. Whether you use steel core or synthetic core shouldn't really affect your short rolls. You may notice it more in your bowed triplets.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: a string question
A soundpost/bridge adjustment will do more for the brightness of a fiddle than strings will. Get thee to a competent luthier.
My personal favorite strings for my fiddle are Warchal Karneols. Very responsive and clear. The other fiddle I used to have was rather focused and a bit brilliant and it loved Obligatos. Your fiddle might benefit from the warmness of Crystals, although they seem to like a heavy bowing hand. Tonicas are a very good string for the money.
If I had your fiddle, I'd definitely invest in a good wound E string to go with the new set..
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by awildman
Re: a string question
BTW, I haven't tried Helicores, but I'm sure that Evah P's won't make it any brighter.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by awildman
Re: a string question
Thanks for the replies. Obligatos sound like a fairly good bet, and I will look into the Vision strings too. Good to know about the Goldbrokat E. I think all of my strings need to be replaced, otherwise I would buy just an A string. I need to have the pegs replaced as well, so when I take the fiddle to a luthier, I will definitely have the soundpost checked.
awildman - how long do the Karneols usually last for you? I have heard that they go dead very quickly. My bow hand is on the light side, so perhaps Crystals aren't the ideal choice.
Question - is it true that a high tension string on a high arched instrument can squash the sound? I'm new to all of this.
I can see that experimenting w/ strings may be an expensive process....Thanks loannas for the internet source.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by clementine 72
Re: a string question
Karneols are just fine as long as one keeps the rosin wiped off. Mine are 3 months old and doing great.
If you really want bang for your buck, go with Tonicas and a Kaplan wound E string. This would be a better combination for a bright fiddle like yours, especially under your ear.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by awildman
Re: a string question
I have tried Tonicas on a fiddle like yours and they are
a good set of strings.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by dogmageek
Re: a string question
wow - the Tonicas are a good deal...saw them for $23. Do they project a great deal? Or are they more on the muted side?
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by clementine 72
Re: a string question
Tonicas are good strings and work well on many types of fiddles. Whether your fiddle "projects" or not is up to its construction, not which strings you put on it. Unless you start messing around with light gauge strings. I'd stick with mediums for now.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: a string question
Guess I'll never have a problem w/ my fiddle being heard! Thanks for all of the input - going to try out the medium Tonicas....
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by clementine 72
Re: a string question
Clementine - I love rambling on about strings so here goes: I got on well with Tonicas but I've tried lots of strings and it depends on the fiddle. At first I got a bit confused about the terminology - I think strings are described as either darker or warmer and dark is the opposite of bright (so warmer means brighter...I think...!) I have a high-arched old German fiddle that I keep at my place of work for lunchtime practice, and it was painfully bright in the treble and lacking projection on the lower strings. It had Infeld reds on it but I wanted to try some wound gut, and put Golden Spiral Solo strings on. They lasted nearly two years (which I didn't expect) and transformed the sound - sonorous and balanced across the whole register (but they did need a lot of retuning from the pegs, which was also good for me in a practice situation but not so good at a session). I think lower-tensioned strings bring out the best in a fiddle like this because they allow the top to vibrate more. I also have a French fiddle which was doing OK with Tonicas, but perhaps sounded a bit muddy, so I thought I'd try the Warchal brilliants. I put them on for a few days, but just didn't think they were suited, so I took them off and put them on the German fiddle as the Golden Spirals really were a bit tired, and they really sound superb on it. I put Evahs on the French fiddle and I'm very pleased with that too - it sounded a bit too woody before, but they suit it fantastically so I'm going to stick with them on that one. Tonicas: I much preferred them to Dominants - I'm sure they'll do you a turn. I've also tried Helicores but found them quiet, but they are very popular and reliable.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by RichardB
Re: a string question
thanks Richard - very interesting! From reading about the Brilliants, seems like your high strings would have become even brighter. Sounds like they worked out really well for you though. Maybe I'll buy two different types of strings to try since the Tonica's aren't too spendy.
Our fiddles sound similar except mine is bright across the entire register...and w/ the Heliocores on I feel like I'm going deaf in one ear! A while back a luthier suggested a gut string to warm up the sound. I sort of dismissed the idea since I understand they are slower to respond. Did you find that to be the case in your sessions? How frequently did you have to retune?
cheers,
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by clementine 72
Re: a string question
In my experience, most strings take days or a week or two to settle in. Judging them in a single day or two is not giving them a fair chance on your fiddle.
Also, as I understand the terms used for tone, "warm" and "dark" tend to be on the same end of the spectrum, whereas "bright" and "brilliant" are on the other end of the spectrum.
"Warm" or "dark" tones tend to feature lots of overtones, so the sound is more complex, sometimes to the point of being less focused, or even fuzzy or muddy. But a good "dark" string is both complex and focused. On my fiddles, the Visions and Evah Pirazzis both meet that description. In a steel-core string, Helicores and Prims also do the job well.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: a string question
re "warm/dark"--that's what I meant, the other end of the spectrum from "bright."
On the steel-core score: I think Helicores are more responsive to dynamics (i.e., changes in loudness) than Prims.
# Posted on May 18th 2009 by John Galt
Re: a string question
Clementine - I found the wound gut strings often went sharp as I played so needed adjusting, and you're supposed to tune gut strings from the peg. This meant that the pegs got a lot of use, and work so much better, plus my skill at tuning by ear improved. Each time after about 10 mins the strings settled for the whole playing session, but then tended to have gone flat again the following day. Yes I do agree with Will that "warm" and "dark" are the same end of the spectrum - when I was first buying strings I wasn't sure what to expect from the term "dark" - it's a word that has shades of gothic mystery about it! Perhaps I was thinking strings are like lightbulbs - the warmer they are the brighter!
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by RichardB
Re: a string question
I think a lot of people keep changing their strings 'cause they are not very good at getting the sound they want. I think a good player can get warm, dark, bright, whatever out of a half decent, well set up, fiddle with any decent strings and a decent bow.
I've used tomastic dominants for 25 years. I think there's a combination of the player learning how to play them, learning what range of sounds you can get out of them, and the fiddle itself becoming acustomed to them. A lot of people say they find tomastic dominants hard to play. I think this is because they are capable of a large range and that innitially, that range is difficult to control. And it's more than likely that a lot of good strings are the same.
I say choose a set and play them for five years at least before you give up on them. Get used to them, to what they do. And let your fiddle get used to them.
And resist the urge to persuade your fiddle doctor to have the soundpost too close to the G string just because you are after that poncy illusive warm/dark thing. All that happens there is you make the fiddle quiter and you'll lose the ability to sing out with it.
If you want dark, learn how to play dark. Faffing around buying different strings everytime you change them is just gonna hold your playing back.
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by ...
Re: a string question
It's an old canard that gut strings are "slow to respond". The fact is that you need to adjust your bowing technique to these strings, and then they'll do anything you want. Listen to the great violinists of the past - Heifetz and his predecessors, all using gut strings (except for the E), or a good baroque ensemble on full throttle, again using gut strings (but now including a gut E), and you'll hear what a gut setup is capable of in terms of speed and tone.
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: a string question
I would pretty much agree with llig’s post (maybe slightly diluted - your choice of diluting agent). To understand how to get a variety of sounds out of any instrument you have to live with it for a good long time without changing anything. That’s the only way you’ll ever learn what goes into producing a range of tones and effects. Five years may not be an exaggeration for lots of people. Once you have that understanding, experimentation will be immensely more fruitful. But, as usual, the journey may prove more rewarding than the destination, and you might just decide that you don’t need to change anything about the instrument.
When I was teaching guitar, I always encouraged students to explore the instrument every day. Pluck here, pluck there, dig in, back off. Find out how it wants to sing. Find out how many different voices it can have. Make it imitate other instruments. Get sensual with it.
Before I could afford a decent instrument, I played a cheap one for nearly ten years. Nearly all of my learning about tone came from trying to make that cheap instrument sing.
# Posted on May 19th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: a string question
I agree with the comments about technique, and developing that is of course the hardest part, esp. if you're trying to teach yourself. But I would rather have a challenging process/unforgiving fiddle...in fact when I try other people's violins they seem easy to play after this one. The strings need to be replaced anyway, so I figure I might as well find some that enhance the instrument's pleasant qualities. But I won't spend inordinate amounts of time or money fretting over it.
thanks for the input.
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by clementine 72
Re: a string question
You describe your fiddle as very bright and loud. It sounds like a good fiddle. Good fiddles are not necessarily easy to play, but they have range within them. When you pic up someone else's "darker" sounding fiddle, what you are actually getting is a muted sound, the top harmonics are cut off. What you need to do is to learn how to cut the top harmonics off the sound of your fiddle by your technique. The muted fiddle will always sound muted, your's has range
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by ...
Re: a string question
Last night I took my gut-strung Jay Haide (Eudoxa G & D, Chorda A - plain gut, and a Pirastro E). to a session and someone remarked how well it projected. On the last occasion it was strung with Visions and I remember feeling I had to work to get the sound out. The gut felt effortless by comparison. Same number of players in both sessions - about ten. Same mix of instruments – 3 fiddles and more or less equal numbers of melodions and concertinas, and a very good guitarist who knows how to play music.
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: a string question
Thanks llig - an experienced player once remarked that the fiddle has a good tone and that he wished his fiddle was that loud. Unfortunately for me that means every squeak and side noise is amplified. Which again boils down to technique. There seem to be a lot of competing overtones, so I guess the fiddle is complex, as well as bright.
Gut strings...hmm. Is it typical to get wound G&D strings and plain gut A's? Are Oliv's a good string? So many choices.....
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by clementine 72
Re: a string question
Normally all wound I think . If I recall olives are the best but eudoxa do me fine. because Im using a job lot of strings from a luthiers clearance I am using plain gut on one fiddle, but I prefer the wound version, better for sliding up to notes.
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: a string question
gotcha - thanks.
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by clementine 72
Re: a string question
A plain gut A (Chorda) works better for me than a Euxoda A - but that may be just my fiddle setup. The Chorda seems to have more richness in its overtones than the Eudoxa, although the Eudoxa is superior in this respect to most other strings. I've no problems in sliding or moving around on the plain A.
One interesting point is that using a plain steel E with a Chorda A sometimes results in ghosting (but not necessarily squeaks). My local violin shop is aware of this problem and advised using a Pirastro wound E, which worked. The only other alternative would have been a plain gut E - nice to play on but need replacing every couple of months. Btw, plain gut strings are the least expensive of high quality strings - it's centuries-old technology.
If you've never used a plain gut string the first job is to learn how to make the loop at the tailpiece end. Again, the kind luthier at the violin shop showed me the trick and I made a loose mock-up of the knot in ordinary string to remind me. Eudoxa G and Ds come with a loop end, but there's a choice of loop or ball end for the Eudoxa A.
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: a string question
Ah, llig. I'm not sure what you're on about. A bright fiddle blocks out the lower overtones, but it doesn't? Hogwash. If overtones are dampened, they're dampened, bright or dark. I think you're confusing bright with focused. Let it also be noted that such terms are ridiculously subjective, quite often to the point of being useless. Focused, brilliant-type fiddles are generally neither bright nor dark, and are capable of producing varying tonal characteristics up to a player's abilities. Generally, decent fiddles are pretty focused, and well-balanced tonally. Maybe we don't disagree as much as differ in terminology.
I do agree about constantly changing strings. Stick with something that works.
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by awildman
Re: a string question
I think perhaps the A string is wearing away which might explain the roughness I have noticed recently...
Any one tried Passione strings?
i doubt Im going to need to buy strings in the foreseeable future !
In my fiddle case I have;
E
1 pirstro olive E
2 wound eudoxa
4 wound lezner.
A
6 pirastro gold, plain gut A
, 4 eudoxa
2 pirstro black label.
D
2 Eudoxa D,
3 unnamed wound gut D,
5 Fisoma D
G
16 copper wound Hopf Gs
2 eudoxa Gs
C
14 hopf C,
4 Pirastro black label C
7 gold C's
So thats 7 spare E.s 12 spare As, 10 spare D, 18 G and 25 spare C strings!!! LOL
Apart from the E's I got them around 1£ each, which is why I bought so many!
The Cheapest place on line for these G and C strings [Gostrings dot com cant recomend them highly enough they have a massive selection .] is 20 and 25 $ each. Normally retailing at 25 to 30 £ each.!!!
I see the chorda plain gut As are 8.45$ compared with 13.40 for the wound eudoxa.... Yes, I play a 5 string fiddle, so I buy viola strings with a violin top E with a fine tuner.
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: a string question
jeez 22£ for a viola A online, and 16 $ at gostrings!
no I have no connection with the company just a happy shopper!
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: a string question
awildman, where did I say that a bright fiddle blocks out the lower overtones?
# Posted on May 21st 2009 by ...
Re: a string question
You didn't say so. I said so. You were saying that a bright fiddle was capable of playing dark, but not the other way around. I disagree. There are two ends of this spectrum, with one being dark and the other end being bright. You're saying that the left extreme is capable of reproducing the right extreme but that the right extreme is not capable or reproducing the left extreme. I say that you're confusing focus/brilliance for brightness. Brilliance is NOT part of the dark/bright spectrum, it's a completely different tonal quality.
# Posted on May 21st 2009 by awildman
Re: a string question
Hmmm, semantics eh. I'm confusing brilliance with brightness.
Lets look at it this way: There are fiddles that are are merely very toppy, scratchy, nasty, with no warmth to them. Clementine's fiddle could be one of these, but I don't think so, they way it's described. And there are fiddles that are more bottomy. They are often described as "dark sounding", but really it's just a lack of higher frequency overtones. It's usual that the carving is not so good, the wood is left a little thick, and the joints are over-glued. They are always quiet and if you try to push them, the sounds just falls to bits. Some people say they sound warm, I'd say they sound dead.
This latter kind of fiddle is very popular with fiddlers either new to the fiddle and this music or just not very good. These instruments are not expensive (because they are not very good) and relatively easy to get a clean sound from (if not clear). You come across them a lot as cherished instruments that people's Grandfather's made.
And then there's good fiddles. You can't expect a begginer to get a good sound out of one. You have to fight them a bit, tame them. Yes they are responsive, responsive to mistakes.
The same is true of violas. Fiddlers new to the viola prefer the "dark" ones. It's a sound they expect from a viola and they are cheep and easy to play. Good violas are bright as buttons and require a whoie extra level of effort.
# Posted on May 21st 2009 by ...
Re: a string question
Then we do agree. We're just using two different paths to arrive at the same conclusion.
BTW, Clem, strings only really make a difference from a (very) few feet away, and mostly under the ear. While what you hear under your ear is certainly important, it won't make any real difference in your playing, nor will most people across the room notice any difference from your other strings.
# Posted on May 21st 2009 by awildman2384
Re: a string question
Yes, I thought we agreed also. I was just clearing up the daft semantics
# Posted on May 21st 2009 by ...
Re: a string question
I beg to differ as it was obviously I who was clearing things up. :p
# Posted on May 22nd 2009 by awildman2384
Re: a string question
yep my violin does have depth and warmth to it, not a tinny, nasty sound. And yes, unfortunately it's sensitive to mistakes. I find it interesting - the language we use to describe sound...how we end up relying on our other senses. The terms can be so subjective.
all I'm after is a better sound under my ear, really. The volume is such that I end up turning my ear away as I play or playing more softly. My dog usually flees the room, but that might be more of a testament to my techique. ;)
If I get a plain gut string I'll definitely go to the local shop and see if they can show me how to make the loop.
cheers,
# Posted on May 22nd 2009 by clementine 72
Re: a string question
Clementine, I'll have a go at describing the making of the loop I use for my gut strings:
Firstly, some plain gut strings have the peg end coloured; you obviously don't go tying knots in that!
1 Take the tailpiece end and make a simple knot quite near the end. Tighten it.
2 Make another similar knot loosely a short distance up the string from the first. Make sure that it is loose enough to form a little loop of itself.
3 Pass the first knot through that little loop.
4 Tighten the second knot so that its little loop contracts and prevents the first knot from pulling through. You now have a loop at the end of the string. The trick is to have this loop large enough for the string to pass through in step 5, but not too large.
5 Insert the loop you have made downwards through the appropriate aperture in the tailpiece and draw it towards the bridge.
6 Take the peg end of the string and insert it upwards through the loop.
7 Pull on the string so that the string is firmly tied round the end of the tailpiece.
8 Insert the peg end of the string in the peg and tune up in the usual manner.
Note that a new gut string will be quite stiff and knot making will feel awkward, so I advise de-stiffening it by bending the last 1-2 inches around with your fingers before you start making the knots.
A few more tips:
When winding the string round the peg you should have 3 or 4 windings (no more) when the string is up to playing pitch. Try to get the windings close together but not touching the inside of the pegbox, otherwise turning the peg will be difficult and the string will probably eventually break in that area.
Because gut strings are always tuned from the peg it is a good idea to have the peg positioned so that when the string is at pitch the player should be able to see the whole of one side of the peg grip face-on - not at an angle or edge-on. The reason for this is to make it easy for the player to tune the peg while bowing the string in the playing position. Believe me, this is the most efficient way to tune gut strings. The problem is getting the right length of string wound round the peg for you to see the peg-grip face-on. You'll have to experiment. Detension the string, and unwind the peg sufficiently for you to pull a short length of string through - try about 1/4 inch. If that doesn't work, pull out a further 1/4 inch.
And always tune up to pitch - not down.
For more details of this way of tuning see Todd Ehle's excellent violin teaching videos on YouTube (google his name).
Because you'll be tuning from the pegs they'll have to be in good condition and turn easily. Don't worry about the peg slipping because the tension of gut strings is a lot lower than that of other strings.
As with all new strings, lubricate the grooves in the bridge and the nut at the pegbox end with a soft pencil lead (4B or 6B).
In order to get familiar with making the knots and loop in the string I recommend trying it out first with a piece of ordinary string of similar thickness to the violin string you'll be working with.
I don't know the technical "knot" name of the violin string loop. If anyone knows ... ? It may be one of the 110 knots described in http://www.animatedknots.com/index.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com, but under another name, so if anyone feels inclined to trawl through that lot ... ?
# Posted on May 22nd 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: a string question
Hey,thats very helpful, I didn't know that.I see I have 3 kind of right and 2 wrong... will adjust ... thanks
I use this on all my fiddle pegs
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Hill-Peg-Composition-Peg-Paste-violin-viola-cello_W0QQitemZ230344417677QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Musical_Instruments_Sting_Instruments?hash=item35a198e18d&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1683|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50
stick will last forever. Makes it all easier tuning at the pegs when they may never have been used like that before.
# Posted on May 22nd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: a string question
This is probably as good..?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PEG-PASTE-VIOLIN-VIOLA-CELLO-PREVENTS-PEGS-SLIPPING_W0QQitemZ110387681297QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Musical_Instruments_Sting_Instruments?hash=item19b39e5811&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1683|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A50
# Posted on May 22nd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: a string question
lazyhound - I've seen some other Todd Ehle instructional videos and thought they were great. According to my luthier, I need new pegs, so I think I will have them replaced first, and then try out the gut strings. Thanks for writing out the steps - very helpful!
lonannas - I will definitely look into the peg paste - sounds like it makes things much easier.
# Posted on May 27th 2009 by clementine 72
Re: a string question
Clementine, there are two kinds of peg paste (also known as peg dope)--one that eases stuck pegs and the other that makes loose pegs stick.
No reputable luthier I've ever met in 30 years recommends the sticky kind.
That's because it makes a horrible mess of your pegs and peg box. Most good violin and fiddle shops won't even sell it.
Do yourself a favor and ask a good luthier or shop for their opinion before you gunk up your pegs.
# Posted on May 27th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: a string question
Hill's Peg Dope in a lipstick/chapstick type tube is what good luthiers use. They avoid such products as Ardsley's Peg drops. Hill's is designed to ease the action, without being either sticky or slippery. It is not a miracle cure, and will not fix poorly fitted or worn pegs.
Or forget all that and get Perfection Pegs.
# Posted on May 27th 2009 by awildman2384
Re: a string question
Yes I do recall researching the best peg dope and hill was the name that came up. Its not sticky or gunky I use it on all my fiddles It is an excellent product.
# Posted on May 27th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: a string question
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/4984/comments
no thanks
# Posted on May 27th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: a string question
not sure about the perfection pegs either...interesting concept though. I'm putting off getting new pegs because I have to ship the fiddle away for repair. It will be missed. **sniff**
I'll ask about Hill's.
# Posted on May 27th 2009 by clementine 72