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Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

Someone repeated, in a recent thread, the oft. quoted line that the Bodhran was at the heart of ITM! Let's put this nonsense to bed once & for all, shall we!

So which instrument is "At the Heart of Irish Music"?

Well for a start, surely the acid test for what may, or may not, be at the heart of Irish Music would be that the instrument could stand alone and convey most of what Irish Music is all about? Clearly a Bodhran can never hope to do that ... & let's face it, it would fall short, by a long country mile!

In Irish Music, there is an element of tradition involved too, so clearly the recent blow ins to this music can't possibly be considered, which naturally rules out the likes of the Bouzouki, Bodhran, Banjo, Mandolin and Guitar.

That would surely also rule out even the not so recent blow ins, like the Melodeon, Accordion & Concertina.

This then leaves us with the front runners: the Uilleann Pipes, Harp, Flute, Whistle & Fiddle.

As the Flute, Whistle, Harp & Fiddle are played in many other countries, that leaves us with the Uilleann Pipes which are peculiarly Irish. i.e. If you see an image of someone playing a Flute, Harp, Whistle & Fiddle they could be playing music from anywhere. However, if you see an image of an Uilleann Piper, you know the music will almost certainly be Irish Music.

So if we were left with only one instrument to carry the tradition forward, the Uilleann Pipes would indeed be fit to do the best job, therefore I maintain that, if any instrument is, then surely the Uilleann Pipes are at the heart of Irish Music!

Of course, we could indeed find a useful role for the Bodhran, in the important job of carrying the tradition forward.
For example: If we were making a cart to carry the Uilleann Pipes on, for the Pipes to carry the tradition forward, then we could perhaps use four bodhrans as the wheels of that cart! :-D

So what do you believe is "At the Heart of Irish Music"?

Perhaps you reckon it is not an instrument at all, but rather the Irish people themselves, ........ or maybe it's their singers?

Please put forward your candidate & reasons for choosing?

Cheers
Dick

# Posted on May 15th 2009 by Ptarmigan

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

Yes, it's not an instrument. It's the tunes themselves. And they don't exist anywhere other than in the collective hearts, minds and memories of those who play them.

# Posted on May 15th 2009 by ...

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

Whoever posted that has been listening to too much LiveIreland.com, with that one commercial: "...the bodhran is hte heartbeat of Irish traditional music..." ;-)

# Posted on May 15th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

People are at the heart of Irish music. Without people loving it and playing it and changing their minds all the time, none of this would be possible.

# Posted on May 15th 2009 by gravelwalks

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

Well said, Llig, though it does defuse the fun (?) of the whole 'mine is bigger than yours' argument.

That's 'the' not 'hte' above, not practicing my 1337-speak, just still drinking coffee.

# Posted on May 15th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

"Whoever posted that has been listening to too much LiveIreland.com, with that one commercial: "...the bodhran is the heartbeat of Irish traditional music."

heart BEAT. I can understand the statement as related to percussion. I don't interpret that as provocative.

If that was the original statement, it is different than "the Bodhran was at the heart of ITM."

My impression is there are reactions based on the thought "how dare they think of themselves in that way" as if bodhran is more at the heart of ITM than other instruments.

In terms of debate, I would call that a strawman tactic. You are spinning the original statement into something that is easily rejected.

When you look at bands like Altan, Teada, Danu, Dervish, etc... you see that at the heart of their Irish traditional music is the Irish communities from which they came. Many actually grew up together. Then you look at the music that is named after specific musicians or events in Irish history. Many of the bands came from specific counties and pubs. I think If anything is at the heart of Irish traditional music its the counties, cities, towns and pubs from which the music was generated. Or as the Cheiftains put it, the water from the well.

Yes, I agree with llig leahcim - its not about any one instrument.

# Posted on May 15th 2009 by Micheál

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

Ah go on outa that, Ptarmingy. How many Uileann Pipers do you see knocking around. Surely, the fiddle is at the centre of Irish Trad. Sure, a few other traditions & cultures play stuff on it but they've got it all wrong - just don't sound right.

# Posted on May 15th 2009 by the wounded hussar

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

The tunes ... not an instrument. would have thought that was obvious..
If you want to be picky. Look at those who kept the Tradition alive and what instruments they played. I would say the Pavee's are at the heart of Irish music.

# Posted on May 15th 2009 by Miss Mulligan

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

You're a fine hair splitter, Micheál, it's just a little humor.

# Posted on May 15th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

Pipes are maybe the kidneys, potentially the pancreas of this music; but not the heart.

# Posted on May 15th 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

Paddy Keenan: 1) uileann piper, 2) Pavee, 3) Bothy Band founder.

He's the heart and the elbow.

# Posted on May 15th 2009 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

llig, good words, but you do need to get out of the nunnery for just a short bit.
Cheers!

# Posted on May 15th 2009 by Ben Steen

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

what I would like to know..ethnomusicologists..is why and how did Irish music come about..Also mathematically speaking is there a Finite number (what is it) of Jigs/Reels etc than can be composed/formatted..is there a computer programme than could accomplish this. Possibly a sibileus add on!! really though, surely its possible.. The idea of indeginous populations anywher is laughable it seems, bar maybe the african subcontinet, so where did this type of music come from, wher did any music come from. Who are we and what the F uck is going on

# Posted on May 15th 2009 by Miss Mulligan

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

come on put that "Arts "degree to good use

# Posted on May 15th 2009 by Miss Mulligan

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

Trucks—

You raise some good questions. Your last two, especially. For answers, many have turned to the cigarette-hoarsened Canadian, Joni Mitchell: "we are stardust, we are golden, we're caught in the devil's bargain, and we've got to get ourselves back to the garden." Smarter than Sartre, anyway.

# Posted on May 15th 2009 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

Africa was a continent last time I looked.

# Posted on May 15th 2009 by Ramiro

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

Africa is slowly colliding with Europe. In terms of plate tectonics.

# Posted on May 15th 2009 by Ben Steen

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

To return for a moment to Ptarmy's original question, for me the instrument that best conveys the "heart" of Irish music is the keyless, wooden flute. For me, that is.

# Posted on May 15th 2009 by Greg the Piano Tuner

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

How did Irish music start? Paddy and Mick came over to Scotland for a holiday, heard some tunes being played and thought, "Jaysus, this here music here is fe*king brilliant, so it is. Shouldn't we be doing with some of that back home?" And so they bought a couple of early Capercaillie tapes and it all really developed from there.

:-)

# Posted on May 15th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

Irish music has no heart, it is a spiritual thing, and hence has the anatomy of a ghost: without which it could not pass through walls and frighten the priests. Where did it start? Where is it going? It starts where it ends and ends where it starts; it goes round in circles, much like the world.

# Posted on May 15th 2009 by Hammurabi Breathnach

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

Doesn't all music begin and end with the idea that it is the best way possible to meet girls and drink? Surely O'Carolan must have thought to himself - "Well, I'm half blind and a bit doughy, but If I can just pluck out a few tunes on this harp girls will be throwing their hotel room keys at me like a Tom Jones concert.

# Posted on May 15th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

That's right, we all know what O'Carolan had on his mind when he wrote a tune called "Fanny Power". Say no more.

# Posted on May 15th 2009 by Hammurabi Breathnach

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

Fanny Power indeed. He liked big butts and he could not lie?

# Posted on May 15th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

Surely the beginning of it all was the whistle ?
And not the plastic-mouthpieced chrome-plated even-tempered things you see today, poking out of people's pockets before they are held aslant between the lips and blown all night to wake the Divil, but an honest piece of wood, bored out with a hot iron bar and the holes whittled by a pen-knife so that no two were ever in tune, let alone in equal temprament, so they all had to be solo performances.
The pipes ? Some 19thc invention.
The fiddle ? Some Eye-talian import.
The flute ? A discarded bit of baroque music-making.
About the harp there is still discussion possible.

# Posted on May 15th 2009 by Guernsey Pete

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

Obviously the drum came first. Then the inevitable, someone's son wasn't able to master the drum, so someone ran up a set of pipes for him.

That way the whole family could be involved.

It took off from there.

# Posted on May 15th 2009 by bodhran bliss

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

NCFA, I'm sure that if Paddy and Mick went somewhere for a holiday, they came to Spain. Then they heard some flamenco singing and thought: Let's invent some music with everything but a Phrygian mode!

# Posted on May 15th 2009 by Ramiro

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

spoons have been around almost as long as stew - bones even longer

# Posted on May 15th 2009 by airport

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

The real genius was the caveman who said "Quit knocking those bones together, they're hollow, you can blow through them, check this out..."

# Posted on May 15th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

And then, after a night of wild partying and lots of mushrooms, the cavemen said, "Wouldn't it be a fecking ace idea to stick a reed into the bone and attach the skin of a dead animal to it!"

# Posted on May 15th 2009 by DrSilverSpear

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

must have been a cavewoman who figured that out!

# Posted on May 15th 2009 by airport

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

All right all right, J, Mary & Joe, mea culpa. "Cave PERSON"

# Posted on May 15th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

Um, no, it was obviously a man.

# Posted on May 15th 2009 by DrSilverSpear

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

was that supposed to be a bombarde? "Cave person" - I like it, oh but I have to get the door because the post officer just rang the bell

# Posted on May 15th 2009 by airport

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

Post person

# Posted on May 15th 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

nope - still alive

# Posted on May 16th 2009 by airport

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

You're a fine hair splitter, Micheál, it's just a little humor.

Depends on how you define "fine hair" and "splitter." ( ^ :

Humorless? Look at my post on this thread:

http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/21579

# Posted on May 16th 2009 by Micheál

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkChjAW0E0E&feature=channel_page

It's the tunes

# Posted on May 16th 2009 by shanty

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

If one were to opine about a particular "sound", I would choose
the Voice first,
then the Fiddle
and the Pipes.

Voice first, as the ultimate and foundatonal instrument of all music, and the subtlest and most evocative.

Fiddle and Pipes pretty much tie for second, Pipes being perhaps more the distinctive sound, while, IMHO, Fiddle being more versatile in some areas than the Pipes, and better able to cover musical ground equally covered by whistle and flute.

Pipes, in the main, cannot really come off as gentle and soft as a flute, can they? Fiddle, on the othe hand, can tone it down a bit more.

# Posted on May 16th 2009 by Piece

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

I love this discussion, but I can't help thinking there's a wrong assumption threading its way through it - that there is "one thing" which we can boil anything down to. I would suggest that nothing significant happens except in relation to something else, wherever we look and whatever we're talking about.

So... perhaps the "heart" of it is a relationship - between tunes, musicians, instruments, interpretations...and all of that within a context: the place it's being played, the history of the music, the personal stories, the politics.

Maybe it's all of this which keeps the music alive - which would also suggest that the attempt to pin it down or reduce it to "one thing", also potentially kills it.

Mind you I've had quite a lot of wine tonight so maybe that doesn't make sense!

# Posted on May 16th 2009 by Mark Harmer

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

You're wrong mark. The heart is the tunes. What you talk of is the whole body of it. The tunes is the one thing it all boils down to.

# Posted on May 17th 2009 by ...

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

New Pure Drop hinted at it above, but let me say it explicitly, the uillean pipes are the elbow of Irish music, that should be obvious!
The airs and laments, surely they are rooted in the heart, but the dance tunes, now they are rooted in the feet!
But like llig says, when you get right down to it, the heart is in the tunes, not in a particular instrument.

# Posted on May 17th 2009 by AlBrown

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

Clearly at the heart of Irish music is the pint of Guinness, without which nothing else would be possible.

# Posted on May 17th 2009 by leoj

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

Wow, Llig, what's it like to be the only holder of the absolute truth?

# Posted on May 17th 2009 by Mark Harmer

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

... and there was i, under the distict impression that a lot of people agreed with me

# Posted on May 17th 2009 by ...

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

I agree....

# Posted on May 17th 2009 by piobagusfidil

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

Thanks for the replies folks.

RE My 2nd question ~ most of you seem to have read between the lines & opted for the tunes as being at the heart & of course that is pretty obvious.

If you are in any doubt, just take away any one of the other factors, e.g. any one of the instruments or indeed ALL of the present instruments & people would simply find other instruments to play this wonderful music on.

:-D Just imagine for a moment, all our yellow board discussions, not on the Fiddle, Pipes, Flute etc but instead, on the Buzuq, Guenbri, Jawzah, Kaman, Lotar, Oud, Qanun, Rabab, Santur plus of course all our endless slagging off, of the Riq & how it didn't actually contribute anything to the music! :-D

Riq Bliss ................... hmmmmm doesn't have the same ring to it! :-)

RE: My 1st question on which instrument. I think only Pete & Rook have responded to that one. Rook pleads a good case for the human voice & I'm sure a lot of early airs came from songs, so singing must surely be a strong contender.

As for Pete, I liked your:

"but an honest piece of wood, bored out with a hot iron bar and the holes whittled by a pen-knife so that no two were ever in tune, let alone in equal temprament, so they all had to be solo performances."

Hmmmm ............ why did I think of Flute Bands, when I read that! ;-)

I'm sure most folks see Irish Music as more of a shared experience, so although the Whistle may well have been the earliest instrument used, I'm not sure an out of tune stick with holes in it, would really have eventually inspired the Worldwide following Irish Music now enjoys.

On the other hand, how many people have been drawn to this music by the magnificent & enchanting sound of the Uilleann Pipes. Who amongst us, of a certain age, can't remember the first time they heard Planxty & of course the pipes were a huge part of their sound?

# Posted on May 17th 2009 by Ptarmigan


As much as I love the pipes I'm still blown away by a tune played with plenty of heart on whistle.

# Posted on May 17th 2009 by Ben Steen

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

Random, are you such a small, light little chap?

If so, try getting the Whistle player to point the Whistle at the floor, instead of at you ..... then maybe you won't be "blown away"! :-D

But seriously, I do know what you mean e.g. Irish Music doesn't get much better than this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-jTlWGwWyg


# Posted on May 17th 2009 by Ptarmigan

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

I don't believe it matters where Mary points her Generation. She is simply grand. Her version of "Rainy Day" is the one I play.
That is to say, which I try to play. You have me started now. I am going to listen to the full set until her playing is almost a part of me. I'm going to learn this set.
Cheers!

# Posted on May 17th 2009 by Ben Steen

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

At the heart of Irish music is a charismatically challenged caveman's desire to impress a pretty cavewoman.

Or any other music, probably.

# Posted on May 17th 2009 by nicholas

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

"The PULSE of Irish music" is the slogan, used by a bodhran maker, mass produced.

# Posted on May 19th 2009 by bodhran bliss

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

Lentil,split pea?

# Posted on May 19th 2009 by biggus dave

Re: Which is "At the heart" of Irish Music?

pulse = legume

# Posted on May 20th 2009 by dogmageek

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