I saw a mouth blown practice chanter for uillean pipes, keyed to D, a few years ago in a shop. Does anyone know if they are any good? There must be a reason they're not more popular.
I don't imagine they are more musical than a whistle and given that they are still mouth blown I am not sure that you would gain much by using one. Are they blown through a tube? Can you still play it off the knee?
Scottish practice chanters are horrendously unmusical but they do help learners focus on the fingering and they are much cheaper than having a set of pipes. There is also the ability with them to work up by using harder and harder reeds and then moving on to a "goose" - just a bag and chanter - before progressing further. Given that the Uilleanns are below-blown what would the point be?
you all miss the point.. Uillean have totally differt fingering and technique to Whistle. Although there is a degree of crossover. You cant play a chanter like a whistle...Totally impossible..wheras u can play a whistle like a chanter.. Fingering for the Bagpipes is different too
There is no harm getting a solid tune base on the whistle then moving to Pipes (and leaving whistle to one side for a few years)
, most people do this and its probably more of a natural progression than any other instrument..
Im ina similar to position having played whistle/flute for years/now trying to play the pipes..word to the wise, NPU tutor discs are initially biased towards closed style, as a whistle player this isnt great is it inhibits immediate progression/transfer onto the pipes. Try and find a "predominantly legato" style like Paddy Keenan and a tutor that can teach it properly. Its all about fingering. You can still play closed chanter but use legato fingering ie lifting the bottom fingers tat would otherwise cover F and E. This is often taught as a no no, but this is bulls hit. You can play this fingering and close the chanter perfectly well when learning tunes. With musch more exciting results depending on what Pipers you like.. If you like Paddy Keenan, Finbar Furey, Davy Spillane, John Mc Sherry, Mike Mc Goldrick even, then this is the style u should pursue initially. The as you progress listen to people like Sean Potts of Tiarnan Duinchann until you find the balance that you want. Watch out for N.P.U member that try and push you down the regimented closed style at first.
I don't think I missed that point at all. As I said I can't see how an Uilleann mouth-blown practice chanter will help you learn the Uilleann Pipes when you can't play it off the knee and are not playing them with belows.
I am not a piper but I do recognise, as do you, the cross-over between them. Most pipers will probably start on the whistle first. In fact isn't it usual in Ireland for everyone to start on the whistle and then "move on" to something else later such as flute, fiddle, box or pipes? I have an instinctive problem with that. It is all well and good in theory but it does leave many with the impression that whistle is a beginner's instrument to play before you move on to a 'proper' instrument. As a result they get to 8 or 10, take up another instrument and basically drop the whistle. Ultimately the whistle just does not tend to get the respect it deserves!
Anyway, tangential rant over!
The point is that there are similarities in fingering between the pipes and the whistle and if you are planning to learn the pipes then you could do worse than taking up the whistle first.
Ok - I posted after your first 2 posts there Trucks and had not seen your subsequent 2.
Either way it doesn't change what I said. I can't comment on piping style, not being a piper but then again the question was simply what key whistle should he take up and the answer is unquestioningly D.
Let him worry about different piping styles once he has a set of pipes. No point in putting the cart before the horse.
hahaha, indeed not..
Once the Pipes geta hold of your soul they never let go. Be reckless and get onto Benidict Koehler and order a half set, by the time u get them a couple of years will have passed, you will have whopper tunes on the Whistle and a Cracker set of pipes to start on..If you leave it until u want to start playing, u cud be waiting a long time from a good maker. Koehler is much sought after probably the most..There are many other good makers though. There is a new maker in Belfast (two sort of) and he hasn't got a big waiting list yet..Paddy O' Hare(no relation to Brendan)..We have O' Hare C drones in the house and I know people who play his chanters /he made my reed. His pipes would knock your socks off...Whoosh
To give an example of his attitude to pipe-making (and im sure he wouldnt mind this story being told on the mustard board)..Paddy finished a chanter, he played it and by all accounts it was a good chanter, played it a few more hours, people were offering him money for it. Paddy wasnt quite sure and played it for a while longer. Decided his reamer was blunt and therfore the Chanter Bore not quite good enough..So he sawed it in half.. F uck selling it on to some learner..He chopped it in half.. .. !! in f ucking half .. speaks volumes
Richrua,
I think you need to determine first & foremost whether you will or won't start to play said pipes.
Without being condescendant, could I just point out the length of time it takes to become anyway proficient on this instrument.
I don't play elbow pipes myself , but I do know several players & it appears that it can take anywhere between 6 & 12 years to reach a decent standard of playing.
My tuppence worth of advice would be to ascertain that you really would like to learn the uilleann pipes & then invest in a decent set.
For a quick practice (saves 20 to 30 minutes setting up), lots of pipers will use a whistle, (all I know use a low D).
The whistle is the easy practice tool.
Never stop playing your whistle though.
Best of luck,
Eiscir.
Get a D whistle, learn the tunes. Bb whistles are nice as well -- similar-ish hole spacing to a D chanter. If you know the tunes in your head before you get pipes, then you know the tunes in your head and you won't be fighting that battle (learning how to learn tunes) in addition to sorting out piping technique. Some whistle techniques transfer to the pipes but the pipes have lots of other things going (i.e. closed fingering) that whistles do not. But it's handy just knowing tunes. Also, it's handy playing whistle in general since you might find yourself in situations where you really don't want to be arsed to drag a set of pipes around with you (crowded sessions, up mountains, river rafting trips, ski lifts, the list is endless) but still want to play.
Before you invest in pipes, try to find people near you who play them, find festivals, hang out around such people, and see if the madness is for you.
Richrua, definitely D whistle but treat it as an instrument in it's own right. You should be able to get a practise set pretty quickly if you want. Whatever you do don't go spending thousands on a full set, as with any pipes many many more people start than actually become pipers, they are not a walk in the park.
Get a high D whistle then move on to a flute. If you master both of those then get Scottish smallpipes in order to play something different. Forget low whistles - they are just a distraction for people too lazy to learn the flute :-p
On the other hand, if you really, really want to play the pipes, get yourself a practice set and start playing them as soon as possible. A whistle might be useful for learning tunes on, but if the pipes are what you want to play then get some and play them. Uillean practice chanters are, by all accounts, useless since the challenges facing a new piper aren't really about fingering.
Don't order a half or full set until you've played a practice set for a while, and preferrably had the chance to meet lots of other pipers and maybe even try their sets. Otherwise, you'll just be doing your bit for the market in second hand "hardly used" pipes.
'Forget low whistles - they are just a distraction for people too lazy to learn the flute'. Don't agree with you there Chris. Whistle is a different instrument. You'd be as well saying flute is for folk too lazy to learn UP's.
Disagree with you there Michael. They are different instruments and they produce different sounds. A well played low whistle does not sound like a flute.
I've known a few pipers, but only that who didn't start on whistle and who doesn't play whistle at all.
I don't think most listeners would have any difficulty picking out the one piper who didn't go the whistle routr from the others.
It is a small sample size perhaps, but from the pipers I've heard I'd recommend putting some time in on the whistle first. It'll be a while before you have the cash for a set of pipes anyway, right?
I don't think Michael said that a low whistle sounded like a flute.
I'm ambivalent about low whistles. They're ok, but not a patch on a flute in a session. I much prefer a bog standard D to low D in a session too.
I think the best thing that low whistles have going for them in a session environment is that they allow pipers to play along quietly when they aren't quite so sure of the tunes or don't want to dominate a session. The latter question being more of an issue for Scottish border Pipes rather than UPs or small pipes (IMHO border pipes sound great in moderation but are too loud for continuous playing in a session).
Low whistles are also ok for accompanying songs and band works, but give me a flute or basic whistle over them in a session.
Just my 2c, and lets face it my own instrument isn't known for topping the popularity charts
Nothing actively _wrong_ with low W in a session (I hasten to add). Just strikes me as the trendy, but less effective member of the flute/whistle family.
Yes, I prefer the high whistle for sessions too but think the low whistle is a great and very versatile instrument - just my own taste of course. Personally I would be just as inclined to put time into a fiddle or banjo as the flute. I find it strange that some folk think if you play the whistle somehow you must really want to play the flute. And just to totally contradict myself I have actually been thinking of giving the flute a go lately.
To be fair, Chris, I only started whistle about six months before I acquired pipes. Hardly had years of whistle playing (would have been better if I had but c'est la vie). It was a worthwhile six months though.
I like the low whistle in some hands. I have immensely enjoyed sessions with some folk here who are fine low whistle players and have loud low whistles. I used to own one but never replaced it after it went MIA at Willie Week, as I prefer playing high whistles.
At the end of the day, get whatever whistle suits your fancy. Point is that playing whistle first, whatever the whistle, will be helpful. I reiterate that Bb and low A whistles have similar finger spacing to D uilleann pipes but are antisocial keys if you ever want to play with anybody. However, you can get a cheap Generation Bb that will sound okay for solo playing AND a D whistle for playing out.
I have said before on these pages and I will repeat here: if you get a B flat whistle and drill/file/cut a hole for the ghost D and a thumb hole in the back, you will have an effective practise whistle. You might need a little filing and taping here and there, but it works a treat, and you can keep it handy for practising. B flat because, as SS says, the size is near that of the concert pipes.
You were still willing to have a go at the whistle Emily. I'm staill amazed that someone would play the UPs but never have anything to do with the whistle either before or after taking up UP.
I have always wondered why folk describe an A whistle, for example, as a low A or a G as a low G and so on. There isn't an equivalent A or G whistle that is an octave higher. You can however get low A whistles that are lower than a low D (horrendous looking things that are near impossible to play but they do exist).
It is a nice whistle. It plays in D and C but unfortunately even a couple extra holes are not much good for getting down the M8.
As far as adding extra holes to make a whistle more like a chanter, frankly I wouldn't be bothered. Learn the whistle as a whistle, not as a sort of pseudo chanter, as even with a back D and a ghost D hole it is going to require different technique. The point (as I just wrote on chiffandfipple... I feel like I am in the movie Groundhog Day) is to learn the tunes, the rhythm, the phrasing, get a feel for the music. Hell, you could do that on a concertina if you wanted.
>I have always wondered why folk describe an A whistle, for >example, as a low A or a G as a low G and so on. There isn't >an equivalent A or G whistle that is an octave higher.
Generation whistles were so common for well generations that people were familiar with their typical range of whistles. Bb was their lowest. I think whistles lower than that were much less common.
Low D was probably (although I'm prepared to be corrected) the first lower pitched whistle to be found in notable numbers (at least in my memory) and obviously "low" as it was an octave below the standard whistle. The low As you mention are probably closer to the low D's in construction and manufacturer than they are to the generations (and the common range stopped at Bb) and therefore low.
There has however been a mass produced higehr octave G for 900 years (give or take). You can see them on the generation display in just about any music shop. Horrible things they are too (although the f is ok).
the F is equally horrible.. although can be played with a Low F and sound .... interesting enough. Im cooking bacon and have to run back and foward to the f ucking kitchne..already had one fire this month..
.......................................
u cant half tell im a skilled musician the way I flipped those eggs.
"get a feel for the music. Hell, you could do that on a concertina if you wanted."
or even this Scottish smallpipes as one Well meaning poster pointed out
The low A whistles I have seen and played are indeed constructed more like low Ds than Generation Bbs. Easier to play than the low D, as the holes aren't quite so huge and far apart.
The high Gs are cute little things. Until you play them.
Thanks Chris - that seems likely. I still maintain that my A whistle is not a low whistle though. You do get the bass ones which surely must get the name. I had forgotten about those high G whistles. I have an Eb Generation and that is bad enough.
I need to get a tuning slide added to my A whistle. I had wanted to get rid of it for ages and then when 2 great players has a shot on it and said they liked it and one offered to buy it from me I backed out deciding it was probably worth getting the work done. That was probably about 2 years ago now - oops!!
"Hell, you could do that on a concertina if you wanted."
Much better to learn the tunes in your head.
Bernard Overton invented his aluminium low D for Finbar Fury. Still the best player of that instrument.
But yes, If you love these tunes enough, the low whistle will always be a second instrument. If you love these tune enough, play the flute and/or the pipes.
I'll continue to play my low whistle until the kids have grown up and I can dedicate some time to the flute.
It was the good energy from the session last night leaking into your day. Had a lovely tune.
I guess you could learn the Scottish smallpipes but if you really want to play Irish music, you will find the one octave thing fairly limiting. That's why I said concertina instead of Scottish smallpipes. It was a totally random instrument that made some kind of sense for learning Irish music. They ain't cheap, either though.
remeber the man who was actually a concertina in the magic roundabout..
Zebidee!!! fuc king memory is doing well these days..
Someone should do an animation of trad Zebidee..
I think concertinas are Great!!! when played well.. Better than accordians by a long way..Concertinas are class. Full stop.
I played there recently with a concertina player from belfast Tom Mc Gonigle. Pure class musician
In the 5th century BC, Anaxagoras and Leucippus replaced the reality of Being (unique and unchanging) with the Becoming and therefore by a more fundamental and elementary ontic plurality. This thesis originated in the Greek-ion world, stated in two different ways by Anaxagoras and by Leucippus. The first theory dealt with "seeds" (which Aristotle referred to as "homeomeries") of the various substances. The second was the atomistic theory, which dealt with reality as based on the vacuum, the atoms and their intrinsic movement in it.
@trucks: "The challenges facing a _new_ piper..." are mostly about bag pressure and bellows control. And playing in tune.
@Bogman, as Llig observed, anything a low whistle can produce, a competently played flute can too. And more besides. (Think dynamics, being in tune, ...) Specifically, all the ranges of tone colour/quality available on the low whistle are available on the flute if you know how to play it. And you can slap reverb on any recording of the flute just as easily as the low whistle recordings.
@No Cause: I own a high G, but I physically cannot get all the holes covered with one finger per hole since they are too close together. I have got my 16 month old daughter to make a noise with it though. No idea what it would sound like if you tried to play it seriously.
@ramblingP: "In more than a decade of internat forum posting no-one has ever posted the words: "Thanks Chris - that seems likely"." - and I thought they meant me
@SilverSpear: The smallpipes was mentioned, since that is what I chose to learn after the flute, but I was trying to make the point that if the OP wants to play pipes (UP) then they should get pipes (UP) and play them. That will either cure them, or they may actually end up as a piper. I play the Irish stuff on the flute (or whistle, but not low). I play other stuff on the SSP (guess what...).
@trucks: again, to make the comparison with flute, the challenges facing a flute player are about breath control and embouchure. Fingering can be a limiting factor, but it is not the first, nor the biggest problem when trying to play well.
Once you learn basic bag and bellows, you have it. It's autopilot. Perfecting your fingering so your ornamentation, phrasing, and timing are dead on takes *years.* And this is all you have to control phrasing and timing -- bag and bellows has f*ck all to do with the nuances of phrasing a tune.
To back it the thread a little. It has occured to me that I may know a second piper who doesn't play whistle, at least I've never seen him do so. But he did play fiddle very well for many years before taking up the pipes.
So I guess Emily is right, that another instrument would do for the phrasing etc. But whistle would be the most common probably apposite, and certainly cheapest choice. At least for those who know they want to move onto pipes later, as opposed to haveing a Road to Damascus moment after a few years of playing and deciding to switch from fiddle/concertina/whatever to pipes.
@SilverSpear, As I understand it (from my experience of SSP, BP and GHB - though I'm not really good at any of them), control of bag pressure is critical to playing the pipes in tune. Once you can play them steadily then you can try to get the set in tune. And if no one is there to help you then you need to get the set working well, i.e. all the drones and the chanter happy at the same pressure, playing at A=440Hz, etc. And if I understand the UP, (which I do not play) then the pressure needs to be deliberately varied for every note as well if you really want it to be in tune and sound cleanly.
Once you have all of that sorted and running on autopilot, it starts to matter what you do with your fingers, but by then you are no longer a new piper - which was the premise of my original comment.
On the flute I have heard too many fluffy toned, wobbly fingered attempts to sound like one of the modern star recording players - Without a good tone on the flute, you have nothing! With a good tone and breath control (which impacts phrasing) and a feel for the music in your ears you can really start to worry about getting your fingering crisp and accurate. By then you probably have enough control over your fingers to achieve that.
"NPU tutor discs are initially biased towards closed style, as a whistle player this isnt great is it inhibits immediate progression/transfer onto the pipes. "
The uilleann pipe chanter is a continuously-blown woodwind instrument with a double reed and a conical bore; it is open-ended but can be closed whenever the player wishes.
This combination of features defines the instrument, facilitating some forms of musical expression, but ruling out others. In other words - like any artform - piping can be defined by its limitations, and good pipers stick to the things the instrument does well.
Over two centuries pipers have discovered and/or invented techniques that exploit this palette of possibilities. To be able to use these techniques is to be a piper, and that is what we try to teach at Na Píobairí Uilleann.
Not to know these techniques is to be not-a-piper, and it is ridiculous to speak of this kind of ignorance as if it were a style in itself. It's a style in the same way as being disabled is a style of dancing.
As for the 'canard' about the exciting, 'open' (so-called) style of such as Johnny Doran or Paddy Keenan - they are sadly mistaken who think they can sound like those two masters without mastering tight fingering and all the other tricks. When one hears a newcomer declaring 'I want to follow the Doran/Keenan style', it usually means that the speaker is one who isn't inclined, or who simply can't be bothered to accept instruction, and has got hold of the idea that 'the traveller style' constitutes some form of refuge for free spirits.
"Watch out for N.P.U member that try and push you down the regimented closed style at first."
Anyone would think that Na Píobairí Uilleann were some kind of evil empire. We are an association of uilleann pipers, founded by uilleann pipers, staffed by uilleann pipers and run by uilleann pipers for uilleann pipers.
If readers have any problems with our methods, raise them with us. Don't transform us into a depersonalised acronym to slander and bandy about in chat rooms
That's the only thing that worries me about when I finally get round to the flute. I like playing my low whistle and the crispness and accuracy of the fingering is coming along fine. But when I get to the flute, the phrasing will go to pot because I won't be able to blow the bloody thing.
However, decades ago, when I first got my fiddle, the one thing that help me practice for hours on end without getting bored was the tunes I already had from a few years playing the mandolin.
I know that "stop dilly dallying and get the flute/pipes right away" is the right thing to do, and that advice should really be the only advice. But when you can't afford it, and/or can't afford the time needed, the pragmatic answer is to enjoy tooting about for a few minutes each day on a whistle.
Pipes. Yes, the idea that Paddy Keenan's playing does not often utilise the tight closed fingering piperty pop stuff is preposterous. He does it all. And all the best pipers do it all.
Keenan, Spillane, and McSherry and all those "open-style" guys mentioned above utilize tight fingering. It's part of the instrument and what makes uilleann pipes distinct and yes, very cool.
What is it with people who think the "closed style" is strict and regimented while the "open style" is wild and free? I don't understand that dichotomy, not in the least because it's made up and doesn't reflect how anyone (who is good) plays. This guy is one of my favourite pipers, plays super fast with all sorts of wild variations, and has zillions of backstitches and tight triplet runs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DACt6OpUZas&feature=PlayList&p=54607134FDCBAEA5&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=44.
Crackpot,
If you work at it, you can get the bag-bellows thing down in a few months. Yeah, you're right in that the pressure varies from note to note but that sounds more complicated to deal with than it is. Really, it does not take years to get that, especially if taught properly (NPU is very good at this). But after a few months, you are stlll a new piper. The rest of your playing career will be a prolonged soul-sucking battle to master fingering and technique.
I wasn't too impressed with your man there. I think that one of the things you have to nail with playing like that is super accurate timing and phrasing. He was a bit all over the place. Plus, he seemed to have quite a small repertoire of piperty poperty thingermy bits he played over and over, in every tune. And his regulator playing was a bit random, to say the least.
But if you like that sort of playing you should listen to more Finbar Fury. He the master
As much as I have tried to like Finbar's playing, I can't seem to manage. I appreciate that he is technically brilliant but it doesn't do anything for me. Call me a philistine....
Without implying anything negative about Finbar's technique. I'd have thought he was the sort of player that grabbed you at a visceral rather than an intellectual level.
I'm sure he is a technically brilliant player, but before I'd begin to notice that I'd have to peel back layers of almost lustful energy and passion that ouses out of his playing.
If the first, or main, thing I notice about a player is how good their technique is, it usually means that their music has (however skillfully played) has missed the mark for me.
I guess that's you with Finbar, Emily.
Reading this thread I get the distinct impression trucks just does not really know what he is talking about...
Im no Piper. Just learning. Never indicated otherwise. Just being a c unt , and sure why not cosmic ray. seems ur one and all..
Shekotan Karate- ud get slapped all over da shop
I am a member NPU it was not my intention to slander, and your right about what the "Traveller" style represents to people just starting to play.
When one hears a newcomer declaring 'I want to follow the Doran/Keenan style', it usually means that the speaker is one who isn't inclined, or who simply can't be bothered to accept instruction, and has got hold of the idea that 'the traveller style' constitutes some form of refuge for free spirits.
Yet there are some definate aspects of technique progression in the initial stages where I disagree with whats on offer on your tutorials. And better Pipers than me agree. Not to say the same tecniques are not to be aspired to at a later stage. but its playing the tune open fingered (lets assume people know what I mean) and doing closed triplets and even augmenting the phrasing with stops etc, is the way I want to play. Just find it easier to shift notes, and octaves. listening to Pipers like Tiarnan Duinceann makes me just as inclined to learn exiting closed techniques than listening to Keenan etc for open tecniques. I wasn't slandering anyone..Maybe its as much about who you listen to initially..NPU instruction is not the only path to greatness, in terms of myths, its in the same league as the "wild and free one"..
Cosmic Ray you dont rekn I know whatim talking about, ur just sore after I pulled u up for having ur tongue in Jeremys hole not so long ago. A thread subsequently deleted. Ive done concerts and led sessions, big fu cking deal. just not on the Pipes..The whole reason I felt qualified to give "advice" to the initial poster was because im ina similar position (transferring tunes from whistle to Pipes). as mentioned.
it is ridiculous to speak of this kind of ignorance as if it were a style in itself. It's a style in the same way as being disabled is a style of dancing.
hohhohohohohohohohoho..I nearlly choked on my drink..This has to be the quote of the year
You are being serious. If you are really a Sensei, that single post disgraced your endevour to date. You have not yet learnt to seperate the self from what is. You are not fit to teach boardgames to monkeys.
You demonstrate Ego. Aggressive on the surface means weak underneath. Have you even read the Hagakure. It would seem not.
I don't even practice Karate and I know these things..You need to achieve a greater seperation from your emotions..If you are in the mood to remain serious. Kindly do not embarass either of us or disgrace your Masters by posting further. You are welcome to PM me.
as regards my slap you round the room comment..I apologise. I said this in jest. I would never underestimate an opponent. Nor would I boast about victories. You would be well advised to do the same
don't mistake dialect or indeed a bit of banter for true aggression.
If I appear aggressive at times, that is merely your interpretation and says more about your frame of mind..Anyone with an interest in Irish music is ok in my book. Arguement is often cutting yet I bear no bad blood to anyone. And indeed would be quick to retract comment or apologise if required.Also to know when my opinion or information is sub standard or flawed. I talk here as I would in real life. How you choose to interpret that is up to you. Those who know me, of which there are many on this site, know that my comments even if derogatory are not reflective of an aggressive personality. Where I live aggression doesn't lay an easy path for you. Maybe where you grew up people were less contemplative or restricted in their attitudes to violence..I love interacting with people on this site. I love people in general. I love this site for what it is and I think Jeremys a Grand fella.You dont even know me and you readily make assumptions on character. You assume my ignorance instead of trying to guage what it is I am here for. Or what I know. I too have studied and practiced Martial Arts for many years. I have also served in the Irish Army. People like you are not new to me. I'm here for the tunes and the tradition and the people. Violence is somthing best left in the shadows. You are obviously out to prove yourself. Do so in certain company and you will be the one hoping for mercy. Not vise versa. And I don't mean me and that was not a threat. I hope deep down you too view our interactions as banter. Anything else suggests a less than healthy mind. I wish you all the best.
Cosmic Ray..
I was under the impression the Hagakure is Karate and Karate is Hagakure. No?
To eventually do without doing, retain yet let go.. ?
Much like the playing of Irish Music..
And it is not but one view. It is a multitude of views and meditations and It is centuries of them. Comprehensive and not exclusive.
It is also a code of conduct. Impossible for anyone calling themselves Sensei to deviate from. I am just told.
..
To dishounor the code it to have to commit Seppaku
Yea thats pretty despicable Ray. Agree to compete under certain rules then gratuitously break them is called cheating, and you boast about it? ! That's called assault and GBH. Why not compete in a fair competition where the other guy hits back? Shotokan eh? Killer karate , Im Impressed... not.
You get idiots in martial arts competitions - Judo in my case. And when you do, and if the referee is not interfering then you have two choices - walk away or finish the fight. YPYMATYC.
If you don't do it and have never been there then keep your mouth shut.
whistle to uilleann pipes
whistle to uilleann pipes
Lets just say I might try the uilleann pipes one day.
If I do decide to, and save up enough money, it will take a couple of years to get a set.
In the mean time, is there any key of whistle that has similar fingering to a chanter that I could bash away on?
# Posted on May 13th 2009 by richrua
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
D
# Posted on May 13th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
Don't "bash away" on it though - learn it well and you might decide not to bother with the pipes!
# Posted on May 13th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
I would try a low D.
# Posted on May 13th 2009 by pipersgrip
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
Would be easier to start with a high D and then get a low D later - the fingering is the same after all.
# Posted on May 13th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
I saw a mouth blown practice chanter for uillean pipes, keyed to D, a few years ago in a shop. Does anyone know if they are any good? There must be a reason they're not more popular.
# Posted on May 13th 2009 by shanty
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
I don't imagine they are more musical than a whistle and given that they are still mouth blown I am not sure that you would gain much by using one. Are they blown through a tube? Can you still play it off the knee?
Scottish practice chanters are horrendously unmusical but they do help learners focus on the fingering and they are much cheaper than having a set of pipes. There is also the ability with them to work up by using harder and harder reeds and then moving on to a "goose" - just a bag and chanter - before progressing further. Given that the Uilleanns are below-blown what would the point be?
# Posted on May 13th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
you all miss the point.. Uillean have totally differt fingering and technique to Whistle. Although there is a degree of crossover. You cant play a chanter like a whistle...Totally impossible..wheras u can play a whistle like a chanter.. Fingering for the Bagpipes is different too
# Posted on May 13th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
the point.. Uilleann Pipes*
# Posted on May 13th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
There is no harm getting a solid tune base on the whistle then moving to Pipes (and leaving whistle to one side for a few years)
, most people do this and its probably more of a natural progression than any other instrument..
Im ina similar to position having played whistle/flute for years/now trying to play the pipes..word to the wise, NPU tutor discs are initially biased towards closed style, as a whistle player this isnt great is it inhibits immediate progression/transfer onto the pipes. Try and find a "predominantly legato" style like Paddy Keenan and a tutor that can teach it properly. Its all about fingering. You can still play closed chanter but use legato fingering ie lifting the bottom fingers tat would otherwise cover F and E. This is often taught as a no no, but this is bulls hit. You can play this fingering and close the chanter perfectly well when learning tunes. With musch more exciting results depending on what Pipers you like.. If you like Paddy Keenan, Finbar Furey, Davy Spillane, John Mc Sherry, Mike Mc Goldrick even, then this is the style u should pursue initially. The as you progress listen to people like Sean Potts of Tiarnan Duinchann until you find the balance that you want. Watch out for N.P.U member that try and push you down the regimented closed style at first.
# Posted on May 13th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
Although its technically more exiting to an extent *
Therin lays the crux of the argument
# Posted on May 13th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
I don't think I missed that point at all. As I said I can't see how an Uilleann mouth-blown practice chanter will help you learn the Uilleann Pipes when you can't play it off the knee and are not playing them with belows.
I am not a piper but I do recognise, as do you, the cross-over between them. Most pipers will probably start on the whistle first. In fact isn't it usual in Ireland for everyone to start on the whistle and then "move on" to something else later such as flute, fiddle, box or pipes? I have an instinctive problem with that. It is all well and good in theory but it does leave many with the impression that whistle is a beginner's instrument to play before you move on to a 'proper' instrument. As a result they get to 8 or 10, take up another instrument and basically drop the whistle. Ultimately the whistle just does not tend to get the respect it deserves!
Anyway, tangential rant over!
The point is that there are similarities in fingering between the pipes and the whistle and if you are planning to learn the pipes then you could do worse than taking up the whistle first.
# Posted on May 13th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
Ok - I posted after your first 2 posts there Trucks and had not seen your subsequent 2.
Either way it doesn't change what I said. I can't comment on piping style, not being a piper but then again the question was simply what key whistle should he take up and the answer is unquestioningly D.
Let him worry about different piping styles once he has a set of pipes. No point in putting the cart before the horse.
# Posted on May 13th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
hahaha, indeed not..
Once the Pipes geta hold of your soul they never let go. Be reckless and get onto Benidict Koehler and order a half set, by the time u get them a couple of years will have passed, you will have whopper tunes on the Whistle and a Cracker set of pipes to start on..If you leave it until u want to start playing, u cud be waiting a long time from a good maker. Koehler is much sought after probably the most..There are many other good makers though. There is a new maker in Belfast (two sort of) and he hasn't got a big waiting list yet..Paddy O' Hare(no relation to Brendan)..We have O' Hare C drones in the house and I know people who play his chanters /he made my reed. His pipes would knock your socks off...Whoosh
To give an example of his attitude to pipe-making (and im sure he wouldnt mind this story being told on the mustard board)..Paddy finished a chanter, he played it and by all accounts it was a good chanter, played it a few more hours, people were offering him money for it. Paddy wasnt quite sure and played it for a while longer. Decided his reamer was blunt and therfore the Chanter Bore not quite good enough..So he sawed it in half.. F uck selling it on to some learner..He chopped it in half.. .. !! in f ucking half .. speaks volumes
# Posted on May 13th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pQkEjTTatA
Is Beneict Koehler's list even open just now?
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
Benedict even - oops!
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
Richrua,
I think you need to determine first & foremost whether you will or won't start to play said pipes.
Without being condescendant, could I just point out the length of time it takes to become anyway proficient on this instrument.
I don't play elbow pipes myself , but I do know several players & it appears that it can take anywhere between 6 & 12 years to reach a decent standard of playing.
My tuppence worth of advice would be to ascertain that you really would like to learn the uilleann pipes & then invest in a decent set.
For a quick practice (saves 20 to 30 minutes setting up), lots of pipers will use a whistle, (all I know use a low D).
The whistle is the easy practice tool.
Never stop playing your whistle though.
Best of luck,
Eiscir.
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by eiscir riada
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
I don't think Benedict's list is open.
Get a D whistle, learn the tunes. Bb whistles are nice as well -- similar-ish hole spacing to a D chanter. If you know the tunes in your head before you get pipes, then you know the tunes in your head and you won't be fighting that battle (learning how to learn tunes) in addition to sorting out piping technique. Some whistle techniques transfer to the pipes but the pipes have lots of other things going (i.e. closed fingering) that whistles do not. But it's handy just knowing tunes. Also, it's handy playing whistle in general since you might find yourself in situations where you really don't want to be arsed to drag a set of pipes around with you (crowded sessions, up mountains, river rafting trips, ski lifts, the list is endless) but still want to play.
Before you invest in pipes, try to find people near you who play them, find festivals, hang out around such people, and see if the madness is for you.
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
And if your set is sort of working, it should never take 20-30 minutes of setting up.
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
They do cost a lot, but I suppose when you think about it people
spend more than that on silly stuff like motorcycles and fishing boats.
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by Hup
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
But they hold there value better than cars and boats
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
My pipes are worth more than my car.
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
There is a reason for that!
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
Richrua, definitely D whistle but treat it as an instrument in it's own right. You should be able to get a practise set pretty quickly if you want. Whatever you do don't go spending thousands on a full set, as with any pipes many many more people start than actually become pipers, they are not a walk in the park.
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by bogman
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
Get a high D whistle then move on to a flute. If you master both of those then get Scottish smallpipes in order to play something different. Forget low whistles - they are just a distraction for people too lazy to learn the flute :-p
On the other hand, if you really, really want to play the pipes, get yourself a practice set and start playing them as soon as possible. A whistle might be useful for learning tunes on, but if the pipes are what you want to play then get some and play them. Uillean practice chanters are, by all accounts, useless since the challenges facing a new piper aren't really about fingering.
Don't order a half or full set until you've played a practice set for a while, and preferrably had the chance to meet lots of other pipers and maybe even try their sets. Otherwise, you'll just be doing your bit for the market in second hand "hardly used" pipes.
Chris.
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by Crackpot
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
(Although, low whistles in other keys, e.g. A, G, F, low C, low Bflat _do_ have a very legitimate role outside the session in accompanying singers.)
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by Crackpot
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
'Forget low whistles - they are just a distraction for people too lazy to learn the flute'. Don't agree with you there Chris. Whistle is a different instrument. You'd be as well saying flute is for folk too lazy to learn UP's.
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by bogman
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
Any sound/music you can get out of a low whistle, you can also get out of a flute. But not vice versa
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by ...
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
So?
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by bogman
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
Disagree with you there Michael. They are different instruments and they produce different sounds. A well played low whistle does not sound like a flute.
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
I've known a few pipers, but only that who didn't start on whistle and who doesn't play whistle at all.
I don't think most listeners would have any difficulty picking out the one piper who didn't go the whistle routr from the others.
It is a small sample size perhaps, but from the pipers I've heard I'd recommend putting some time in on the whistle first. It'll be a while before you have the cash for a set of pipes anyway, right?
- chris
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
I don't think Michael said that a low whistle sounded like a flute.
I'm ambivalent about low whistles. They're ok, but not a patch on a flute in a session. I much prefer a bog standard D to low D in a session too.
I think the best thing that low whistles have going for them in a session environment is that they allow pipers to play along quietly when they aren't quite so sure of the tunes or don't want to dominate a session. The latter question being more of an issue for Scottish border Pipes rather than UPs or small pipes (IMHO border pipes sound great in moderation but are too loud for continuous playing in a session).
Low whistles are also ok for accompanying songs and band works, but give me a flute or basic whistle over them in a session.
Just my 2c, and lets face it my own instrument isn't known for topping the popularity charts
- chris
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
Nothing actively _wrong_ with low W in a session (I hasten to add). Just strikes me as the trendy, but less effective member of the flute/whistle family.
- chris
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
Yes, I prefer the high whistle for sessions too but think the low whistle is a great and very versatile instrument - just my own taste of course. Personally I would be just as inclined to put time into a fiddle or banjo as the flute. I find it strange that some folk think if you play the whistle somehow you must really want to play the flute. And just to totally contradict myself I have actually been thinking of giving the flute a go lately.
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by bogman
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
To be fair, Chris, I only started whistle about six months before I acquired pipes. Hardly had years of whistle playing (would have been better if I had but c'est la vie). It was a worthwhile six months though.
I like the low whistle in some hands. I have immensely enjoyed sessions with some folk here who are fine low whistle players and have loud low whistles. I used to own one but never replaced it after it went MIA at Willie Week, as I prefer playing high whistles.
At the end of the day, get whatever whistle suits your fancy. Point is that playing whistle first, whatever the whistle, will be helpful. I reiterate that Bb and low A whistles have similar finger spacing to D uilleann pipes but are antisocial keys if you ever want to play with anybody. However, you can get a cheap Generation Bb that will sound okay for solo playing AND a D whistle for playing out.
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
I have said before on these pages and I will repeat here: if you get a B flat whistle and drill/file/cut a hole for the ghost D and a thumb hole in the back, you will have an effective practise whistle. You might need a little filing and taping here and there, but it works a treat, and you can keep it handy for practising. B flat because, as SS says, the size is near that of the concert pipes.
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by gam
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
Uillean practice chanters are, by all accounts, useless since the challenges facing a new piper aren't really about fingering. - Crackpot...
You must own those magical Pipes from this wizard of Oz...
Fingering is 90%
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
You were still willing to have a go at the whistle Emily. I'm staill amazed that someone would play the UPs but never have anything to do with the whistle either before or after taking up UP.
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
...and away!
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
Sorry after I hit send 2 messages back I suddenly had to do the superman thing
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
I have always wondered why folk describe an A whistle, for example, as a low A or a G as a low G and so on. There isn't an equivalent A or G whistle that is an octave higher. You can however get low A whistles that are lower than a low D (horrendous looking things that are near impossible to play but they do exist).
Just a thought.
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
>My pipes are worth more than my car
After last week your whistle is worth more than your car
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
It is a nice whistle. It plays in D and C but unfortunately even a couple extra holes are not much good for getting down the M8.
As far as adding extra holes to make a whistle more like a chanter, frankly I wouldn't be bothered. Learn the whistle as a whistle, not as a sort of pseudo chanter, as even with a back D and a ghost D hole it is going to require different technique. The point (as I just wrote on chiffandfipple... I feel like I am in the movie Groundhog Day) is to learn the tunes, the rhythm, the phrasing, get a feel for the music. Hell, you could do that on a concertina if you wanted.
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
>I have always wondered why folk describe an A whistle, for >example, as a low A or a G as a low G and so on. There isn't >an equivalent A or G whistle that is an octave higher.
). You can see them on the generation display in just about any music shop. Horrible things they are too (although the f is ok).
Generation whistles were so common for well generations that people were familiar with their typical range of whistles. Bb was their lowest. I think whistles lower than that were much less common.
Low D was probably (although I'm prepared to be corrected) the first lower pitched whistle to be found in notable numbers (at least in my memory) and obviously "low" as it was an octave below the standard whistle. The low As you mention are probably closer to the low D's in construction and manufacturer than they are to the generations (and the common range stopped at Bb) and therefore low.
There has however been a mass produced higehr octave G for 900 years (give or take
- chris
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
>The point ... is to learn the tunes, the rhythm, the phrasing, >get a feel for the music. Hell, you could do that on a >concertina if you wanted.
You don't know many concertina players, do you emily ?
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
the F is equally horrible.. although can be played with a Low F and sound .... interesting enough. Im cooking bacon and have to run back and foward to the f ucking kitchne..already had one fire this month..
.......................................
u cant half tell im a skilled musician the way I flipped those eggs.
"get a feel for the music. Hell, you could do that on a concertina if you wanted."
or even this Scottish smallpipes as one Well meaning poster pointed out
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
The low A whistles I have seen and played are indeed constructed more like low Ds than Generation Bbs. Easier to play than the low D, as the holes aren't quite so huge and far apart.
The high Gs are cute little things. Until you play them.
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
Thanks Chris - that seems likely. I still maintain that my A whistle is not a low whistle though. You do get the bass ones which surely must get the name. I had forgotten about those high G whistles. I have an Eb Generation and that is bad enough.
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
Hey!
In more than a decade of internat forum posting no-one has ever posted the words: "Thanks Chris - that seems likely".
I had a good feelinga bout today when I got out of bed
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
I need to get a tuning slide added to my A whistle. I had wanted to get rid of it for ages and then when 2 great players has a shot on it and said they liked it and one offered to buy it from me I backed out deciding it was probably worth getting the work done. That was probably about 2 years ago now - oops!!
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
Wait. You *did* mean me, right?
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
"Hell, you could do that on a concertina if you wanted."
Much better to learn the tunes in your head.
Bernard Overton invented his aluminium low D for Finbar Fury. Still the best player of that instrument.
But yes, If you love these tunes enough, the low whistle will always be a second instrument. If you love these tune enough, play the flute and/or the pipes.
I'll continue to play my low whistle until the kids have grown up and I can dedicate some time to the flute.
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by ...
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
Dont Diss the Eb flat.
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
Eb flat hahaha
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
Yes Chris I did mean you.
"Don't diss the Eb flat"
So that will be the D whistle then?!
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
Oh so it is ok to stamp all over the high f, but paws off the Eb, eh Trucks. You Low F-er.
(I'll be so pleased if Low F-er passes the filter)
- chris
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
yey!
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
It was the good energy from the session last night leaking into your day. Had a lovely tune.
It was a totally random instrument that made some kind of sense for learning Irish music. They ain't cheap, either though.
I guess you could learn the Scottish smallpipes but if you really want to play Irish music, you will find the one octave thing fairly limiting. That's why I said concertina instead of Scottish smallpipes.
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
I like my Eb whistle. Not that I play it, hardly, ever.
Poor concertina players, taking a bit of slagging on this thread.
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
remeber the man who was actually a concertina in the magic roundabout..
Zebidee!!! fuc king memory is doing well these days..
Someone should do an animation of trad Zebidee..
I think concertinas are Great!!! when played well.. Better than accordians by a long way..Concertinas are class. Full stop.
I played there recently with a concertina player from belfast Tom Mc Gonigle. Pure class musician
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
There was a guy who was a concertina in the magic roundabout? Can I have some of whatever you are smoking?
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
In the 5th century BC, Anaxagoras and Leucippus replaced the reality of Being (unique and unchanging) with the Becoming and therefore by a more fundamental and elementary ontic plurality. This thesis originated in the Greek-ion world, stated in two different ways by Anaxagoras and by Leucippus. The first theory dealt with "seeds" (which Aristotle referred to as "homeomeries") of the various substances. The second was the atomistic theory, which dealt with reality as based on the vacuum, the atoms and their intrinsic movement in it.
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
yum
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology
Why are you copying and pasting from a Wikipedia article on Ontology?
Oh and Zebidee was not a concertina. Instead of legs he had a coiled spring.
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
@trucks: "The challenges facing a _new_ piper..." are mostly about bag pressure and bellows control. And playing in tune.
@Bogman, as Llig observed, anything a low whistle can produce, a competently played flute can too. And more besides. (Think dynamics, being in tune, ...) Specifically, all the ranges of tone colour/quality available on the low whistle are available on the flute if you know how to play it. And you can slap reverb on any recording of the flute just as easily as the low whistle recordings.
@No Cause: I own a high G, but I physically cannot get all the holes covered with one finger per hole since they are too close together. I have got my 16 month old daughter to make a noise with it though. No idea what it would sound like if you tried to play it seriously.
@ramblingP: "In more than a decade of internat forum posting no-one has ever posted the words: "Thanks Chris - that seems likely"." - and I thought they meant me
@SilverSpear: The smallpipes was mentioned, since that is what I chose to learn after the flute, but I was trying to make the point that if the OP wants to play pipes (UP) then they should get pipes (UP) and play them. That will either cure them, or they may actually end up as a piper. I play the Irish stuff on the flute (or whistle, but not low). I play other stuff on the SSP (guess what...).
Chris.
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by Crackpot
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
@trucks: again, to make the comparison with flute, the challenges facing a flute player are about breath control and embouchure. Fingering can be a limiting factor, but it is not the first, nor the biggest problem when trying to play well.
Chris
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by Crackpot
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
Chis.. You are wrong..You dont even play the Uillean pipes so shut up. Id smoke u
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
If u do learn the Uillean pipes, whos your teacher? cuz they r wrong n all..Basic Bag and bellows takes a few hours, fingering doesn't.. U talk sh*te
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
Huh?
Once you learn basic bag and bellows, you have it. It's autopilot. Perfecting your fingering so your ornamentation, phrasing, and timing are dead on takes *years.* And this is all you have to control phrasing and timing -- bag and bellows has f*ck all to do with the nuances of phrasing a tune.
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
Amended opinion: not entirely f*ck all, as you have to control your octave jumps, just mostly f*ck all.
# Posted on May 14th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
To back it the thread a little. It has occured to me that I may know a second piper who doesn't play whistle, at least I've never seen him do so. But he did play fiddle very well for many years before taking up the pipes.
So I guess Emily is right, that another instrument would do for the phrasing etc. But whistle would be the most common probably apposite, and certainly cheapest choice. At least for those who know they want to move onto pipes later, as opposed to haveing a Road to Damascus moment after a few years of playing and deciding to switch from fiddle/concertina/whatever to pipes.
- chris
# Posted on May 15th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
"to go back up the thread a little" that should have been.
I realised on of my earlier points wasn't entirely true.
- chris
# Posted on May 15th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
@trucks:
# Posted on May 15th 2009 by Crackpot
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
@SilverSpear, As I understand it (from my experience of SSP, BP and GHB - though I'm not really good at any of them), control of bag pressure is critical to playing the pipes in tune. Once you can play them steadily then you can try to get the set in tune. And if no one is there to help you then you need to get the set working well, i.e. all the drones and the chanter happy at the same pressure, playing at A=440Hz, etc. And if I understand the UP, (which I do not play) then the pressure needs to be deliberately varied for every note as well if you really want it to be in tune and sound cleanly.
Once you have all of that sorted and running on autopilot, it starts to matter what you do with your fingers, but by then you are no longer a new piper - which was the premise of my original comment.
On the flute I have heard too many fluffy toned, wobbly fingered attempts to sound like one of the modern star recording players - Without a good tone on the flute, you have nothing! With a good tone and breath control (which impacts phrasing) and a feel for the music in your ears you can really start to worry about getting your fingering crisp and accurate. By then you probably have enough control over your fingers to achieve that.
Chris.
# Posted on May 15th 2009 by Crackpot
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
"NPU tutor discs are initially biased towards closed style, as a whistle player this isnt great is it inhibits immediate progression/transfer onto the pipes. "
The uilleann pipe chanter is a continuously-blown woodwind instrument with a double reed and a conical bore; it is open-ended but can be closed whenever the player wishes.
This combination of features defines the instrument, facilitating some forms of musical expression, but ruling out others. In other words - like any artform - piping can be defined by its limitations, and good pipers stick to the things the instrument does well.
Over two centuries pipers have discovered and/or invented techniques that exploit this palette of possibilities. To be able to use these techniques is to be a piper, and that is what we try to teach at Na Píobairí Uilleann.
Not to know these techniques is to be not-a-piper, and it is ridiculous to speak of this kind of ignorance as if it were a style in itself. It's a style in the same way as being disabled is a style of dancing.
As for the 'canard' about the exciting, 'open' (so-called) style of such as Johnny Doran or Paddy Keenan - they are sadly mistaken who think they can sound like those two masters without mastering tight fingering and all the other tricks. When one hears a newcomer declaring 'I want to follow the Doran/Keenan style', it usually means that the speaker is one who isn't inclined, or who simply can't be bothered to accept instruction, and has got hold of the idea that 'the traveller style' constitutes some form of refuge for free spirits.
"Watch out for N.P.U member that try and push you down the regimented closed style at first."
Anyone would think that Na Píobairí Uilleann were some kind of evil empire. We are an association of uilleann pipers, founded by uilleann pipers, staffed by uilleann pipers and run by uilleann pipers for uilleann pipers.
If readers have any problems with our methods, raise them with us. Don't transform us into a depersonalised acronym to slander and bandy about in chat rooms
Terry Moylan
# Posted on May 15th 2009 by terrymoylan
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
"By then ..."
That's the only thing that worries me about when I finally get round to the flute. I like playing my low whistle and the crispness and accuracy of the fingering is coming along fine. But when I get to the flute, the phrasing will go to pot because I won't be able to blow the bloody thing.
However, decades ago, when I first got my fiddle, the one thing that help me practice for hours on end without getting bored was the tunes I already had from a few years playing the mandolin.
I know that "stop dilly dallying and get the flute/pipes right away" is the right thing to do, and that advice should really be the only advice. But when you can't afford it, and/or can't afford the time needed, the pragmatic answer is to enjoy tooting about for a few minutes each day on a whistle.
# Posted on May 15th 2009 by ...
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
Pipes. Yes, the idea that Paddy Keenan's playing does not often utilise the tight closed fingering piperty pop stuff is preposterous. He does it all. And all the best pipers do it all.
# Posted on May 15th 2009 by ...
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
Keenan, Spillane, and McSherry and all those "open-style" guys mentioned above utilize tight fingering. It's part of the instrument and what makes uilleann pipes distinct and yes, very cool.
What is it with people who think the "closed style" is strict and regimented while the "open style" is wild and free? I don't understand that dichotomy, not in the least because it's made up and doesn't reflect how anyone (who is good) plays. This guy is one of my favourite pipers, plays super fast with all sorts of wild variations, and has zillions of backstitches and tight triplet runs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DACt6OpUZas&feature=PlayList&p=54607134FDCBAEA5&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=44.
Crackpot,
If you work at it, you can get the bag-bellows thing down in a few months. Yeah, you're right in that the pressure varies from note to note but that sounds more complicated to deal with than it is. Really, it does not take years to get that, especially if taught properly (NPU is very good at this). But after a few months, you are stlll a new piper. The rest of your playing career will be a prolonged soul-sucking battle to master fingering and technique.
# Posted on May 15th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
I wasn't too impressed with your man there. I think that one of the things you have to nail with playing like that is super accurate timing and phrasing. He was a bit all over the place. Plus, he seemed to have quite a small repertoire of piperty poperty thingermy bits he played over and over, in every tune. And his regulator playing was a bit random, to say the least.
But if you like that sort of playing you should listen to more Finbar Fury. He the master
# Posted on May 15th 2009 by ...
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
As much as I have tried to like Finbar's playing, I can't seem to manage. I appreciate that he is technically brilliant but it doesn't do anything for me. Call me a philistine....
# Posted on May 15th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
Without implying anything negative about Finbar's technique. I'd have thought he was the sort of player that grabbed you at a visceral rather than an intellectual level.
I'm sure he is a technically brilliant player, but before I'd begin to notice that I'd have to peel back layers of almost lustful energy and passion that ouses out of his playing.
If the first, or main, thing I notice about a player is how good their technique is, it usually means that their music has (however skillfully played) has missed the mark for me.
I guess that's you with Finbar, Emily.
- chris
# Posted on May 15th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
Emily - you're a Philistine
. I have a CD for you which I'll send tomorrow. May be more to your taste ?
# Posted on May 15th 2009 by Kenny
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
Emily, give me a real e-mail address and I'll send you some finbar. It whill de-philistine you
# Posted on May 15th 2009 by ...
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
Michael -- done. Check your email.
Kenny -- look forward to hearing that. I am quite enjoying Tansey, by the way.
I am very amenable to being de-philistined.
# Posted on May 15th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
Dickey's regulator playing is suffering at the moment as he has a poorly wrist. Those reels are to be heard on his album An Phib
# Posted on May 15th 2009 by gedpipes
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
That is a great album. Timing is spot on there.
# Posted on May 15th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
Reading this thread I get the distinct impression trucks just does not really know what he is talking about...
Im no Piper. Just learning. Never indicated otherwise. Just being a c unt , and sure why not cosmic ray. seems ur one and all..
Shekotan Karate- ud get slapped all over da shop
# Posted on May 15th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
I am a member NPU it was not my intention to slander, and your right about what the "Traveller" style represents to people just starting to play.
When one hears a newcomer declaring 'I want to follow the Doran/Keenan style', it usually means that the speaker is one who isn't inclined, or who simply can't be bothered to accept instruction, and has got hold of the idea that 'the traveller style' constitutes some form of refuge for free spirits.
Yet there are some definate aspects of technique progression in the initial stages where I disagree with whats on offer on your tutorials. And better Pipers than me agree. Not to say the same tecniques are not to be aspired to at a later stage. but its playing the tune open fingered (lets assume people know what I mean) and doing closed triplets and even augmenting the phrasing with stops etc, is the way I want to play. Just find it easier to shift notes, and octaves. listening to Pipers like Tiarnan Duinceann makes me just as inclined to learn exiting closed techniques than listening to Keenan etc for open tecniques. I wasn't slandering anyone..Maybe its as much about who you listen to initially..NPU instruction is not the only path to greatness, in terms of myths, its in the same league as the "wild and free one"..
Cosmic Ray you dont rekn I know whatim talking about, ur just sore after I pulled u up for having ur tongue in Jeremys hole not so long ago. A thread subsequently deleted. Ive done concerts and led sessions, big fu cking deal. just not on the Pipes..The whole reason I felt qualified to give "advice" to the initial poster was because im ina similar position (transferring tunes from whistle to Pipes). as mentioned.
# Posted on May 15th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
it is ridiculous to speak of this kind of ignorance as if it were a style in itself. It's a style in the same way as being disabled is a style of dancing.
hohhohohohohohohohoho..I nearlly choked on my drink..This has to be the quote of the year
# Posted on May 15th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
Sounds like being a philistine has some fringe benefits! Who knew?
# Posted on May 15th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
You are being serious. If you are really a Sensei, that single post disgraced your endevour to date. You have not yet learnt to seperate the self from what is. You are not fit to teach boardgames to monkeys.
You demonstrate Ego. Aggressive on the surface means weak underneath. Have you even read the Hagakure. It would seem not.
I don't even practice Karate and I know these things..You need to achieve a greater seperation from your emotions..If you are in the mood to remain serious. Kindly do not embarass either of us or disgrace your Masters by posting further. You are welcome to PM me.
# Posted on May 16th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
as regards my slap you round the room comment..I apologise. I said this in jest. I would never underestimate an opponent. Nor would I boast about victories. You would be well advised to do the same
# Posted on May 16th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
don't mistake dialect or indeed a bit of banter for true aggression.
If I appear aggressive at times, that is merely your interpretation and says more about your frame of mind..Anyone with an interest in Irish music is ok in my book. Arguement is often cutting yet I bear no bad blood to anyone. And indeed would be quick to retract comment or apologise if required.Also to know when my opinion or information is sub standard or flawed. I talk here as I would in real life. How you choose to interpret that is up to you. Those who know me, of which there are many on this site, know that my comments even if derogatory are not reflective of an aggressive personality. Where I live aggression doesn't lay an easy path for you. Maybe where you grew up people were less contemplative or restricted in their attitudes to violence..I love interacting with people on this site. I love people in general. I love this site for what it is and I think Jeremys a Grand fella.You dont even know me and you readily make assumptions on character. You assume my ignorance instead of trying to guage what it is I am here for. Or what I know. I too have studied and practiced Martial Arts for many years. I have also served in the Irish Army. People like you are not new to me. I'm here for the tunes and the tradition and the people. Violence is somthing best left in the shadows. You are obviously out to prove yourself. Do so in certain company and you will be the one hoping for mercy. Not vise versa. And I don't mean me and that was not a threat. I hope deep down you too view our interactions as banter. Anything else suggests a less than healthy mind. I wish you all the best.
# Posted on May 16th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
Lets just say I might try the uilleann pipes one day.
If I do decide to, and save up enough money, it will take a couple of years to get a set.
In the mean time, is there any key of whistle that has similar fingering to a chanter that I could bash away on?
..Try the Royal Engineers, it seems they sponser anything
# Posted on May 16th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
Cosmic Ray..
I was under the impression the Hagakure is Karate and Karate is Hagakure. No?
To eventually do without doing, retain yet let go.. ?
Much like the playing of Irish Music..
And it is not but one view. It is a multitude of views and meditations and It is centuries of them. Comprehensive and not exclusive.
# Posted on May 16th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
It is also a code of conduct. Impossible for anyone calling themselves Sensei to deviate from. I am just told.
..
To dishounor the code it to have to commit Seppaku
# Posted on May 16th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
How did we end up in a bad Chuck Norris movie ? (yes I know the bad is redundant)
# Posted on May 16th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
Yea thats pretty despicable Ray. Agree to compete under certain rules then gratuitously break them is called cheating, and you boast about it? ! That's called assault and GBH. Why not compete in a fair competition where the other guy hits back? Shotokan eh? Killer karate , Im Impressed... not.
# Posted on May 16th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: whistle to uilleann pipes
You get idiots in martial arts competitions - Judo in my case. And when you do, and if the referee is not interfering then you have two choices - walk away or finish the fight. YPYMATYC.
If you don't do it and have never been there then keep your mouth shut.
# Posted on May 20th 2009 by Crackpot