is anyone else sick to the back teeth of singers comin in and feelin hard done by at TUNE sessions because people ignore them!why dont they organise ther own singin sessions and leave us al alone!!
Yes, it is a bit annoying....but a *really good* singer can sing just one song at a tune session (invited to sing or not) and have *musicians* asking for more...but in my experience good singers are *very* rare. And if they're not good singers then they won't have other really good ones propping them up - hence few singing sessions, and the reason they turn up at tune sessions.
Actually I feel sad that singing isn't welcomed more at sessions. Singing is as much a part of traditional music as tune sessions are. In fact, I'm sick to my stomach of instrumentalists with tunnel vision who want to restrict sessions to just reels, played as blindingly fast as possible and, in most cases, with no real feel for the music.
Yeah, I'm a singer and an instrumentalist. You people are nauseating.
The problem with a lot of singers is that they want to be the centre of attraction. True, some musicians are just as bad but it really isn't possible just to "blend in" or remain in the background while performing a song as the audience is obliged to listen to that singer. Unless, of course, you bring your own choir and that might be closer to a gathering of musicians.
Nothwithstanding the above, I have no real objection to the occasional song in a session. Also, you can get some mixed sessions where this tolerated and can be quite pleasant.
Why would you *want* to barge into a tune session with your solo act (song)? If you want a stage and an audience create a band, get a gig, and solo all you want. Can you see that what you say could easily be slightly modified to include all session-horrors:
Spoon player: "Sessions should absolutely encourage lots of spoon playing! And bongos! These nausiating people won't even encourage bongos!"
There are drum circles out there for them to bang away to their hearts' content... and there are bands and song sessions and choirs and a million other places for singers to sing. Why should sessions cater to *your* ideas of how things should be done?
It might help to remember that today's sessions didn't grow out of one, single-minded tradition. The forerunners were house dances, ceilis, informal gatherings at fleadh, and neighbors sitting in their kitchens. Some of these settings encouraged a variety of participation--instrument playing, dancing, singing, story-telling, jokes, etc. Others were more focused on just the tunes. Some were neighborhood gatherings where everyone joined in the fun, and others more resembled performances.
Today's sessions come from the same range of motivations, and so there's no single model, no strict standard of compliance. Some sessions welcome singers, and some don't. Seems to me the problem arises when someone inserts a song where it's not welcome, yet the players are too "nice" to say anything about it at the time. The singer--or other singers--are then falsely encouraged to think it's okay to sing another, and then the circle degrades into eye rolling and muttering and heavy breathing.
Our local session encourages songs because we're interested in engaging the whole community. We also get the occasional story, poem, epic joke, and step and ceili dancing. We even had a guy stand up and sing Danny Boy once, and it was brilliant--lovely voice, phrasing, and a wonderful down-to-earth presentation that gave the song back its integrity. (Mind you, he's sung it for us only once in all these years... For the most part, people here have figured out how our session works, and they seem to time these bits and their songs so that it all adds to the craic and flow of the session. Of course, some nights it's all tunes, and the players get into a happy lather...so we enjoy a mix.
But that's just us.
I can understand why people resent an overbearing type who asks to sing one song and then monopolize the session, but none of the singers I've ever heard have done that. And it would be just as bad if another instrumental player did it, right? Which in my experience is a more common problem.
I've always thought that a reasonable "middle ground" was to do a song with instrumental accompaniment, rather than go a cappella. Granted, if you have too many instruments following you, your vocals may get overwhelmed. But I've had more than a few good experiences where other players come up with a very decent-sounding accompaniment. For me, it can make the song sound entirely new.
Oh, and somewhat, but not quite, related to the topic of "session-crashers":
Earlier this year, I took part in a large morris-dance performance involving several teams, and after which many of us adjourned to a nearby bar. Of course, after a short while we commenced to singing the requisite sea chanteys, drinking songs, comic songs, etc., most all of them English.
A little while after we started our caterwauling, an elderly gent from elsewhere in the bar came in and sat down with us. I wasn't next to him, so I couldn't hear everything he was saying, but he seemed somewhat intrigued by our singing and finally decided he was going to give it a go.
And so, with shaky, faint voice, he began, "From the halls of Montezu-u-ma/to the shores of Tripoli..."
He barely made it all the way through, and after he was done we all gave him a rousing ovation, and a little while later he went away.
Radriano, you took the sick right out of my mouth. Nauseating!?!? Even my wife doesn't call me that...except on Sunday mornings.
But let's face it. Like anything else, there are Singers and there are "singers"...whoops! nearly typed in 'sinners'...probably a freudian slip....in the same way there are Flute Players and "flute players", Fiddle Players and "fiddle players", etc. Some people know what they're doing, while others just haven't a clue. And they haven't a clue that they haven't a clue. There's Helen Roche at one end of the spectrum, then at the other end, there's yer man who makes you want to phone an ambulance cos ye think he's gonna die any minute...and we're talking a twelve minute dirge.
I like a healthy mix...one that represents all session participants, in a democratic system of proportional representation, not first past the post. If there are 2 singers in a session of 10 players, they should get 20% of the session time. That's what our proportion was last night and that was near enough how it turned out.
Why, what's different about you on Sunday mornings, Daniel? *grin* Personally, I don't care about the "nauseating" part, I want to know what's up with the "you people" thing.
It seems to me that the sessions that are open to solo singing are usually the same ones that welcome slow airs, and other slower, or less common types of tunes. These sessions also tend to have breathing room between sets, rather than one roaring tune set after another. I regularly play one of each type of session, and both have their merrits. If you really want to play, or if you're a dancer and need long tune sets, tune sessions are great. If you want to relax, listen, hear some new stuff, and maybe play some obscure stuff too, the other session is the better of the two.
I've also noticed that singers that sing songs that have a simple, easy-to-pick-up melodic line, a good story and a reasonable key are usually welcome anywhere, especially if they leave room for instrumental breaks. Then everyone can play (hopefully tastefully and not too loud while the singer is singing) and it just adds so much to the session.
Ofcourse people who yowl slightly off pitch, song after song, are rarely welcomed anywhere, including song sessions.
Zina - Ok then, every morning, but particularly Sundays, as they follow Saturday (the very occasional beer) nights, need I continue?
But I'll betcha we're all generalising about this...because, although they all follow certain rituals which enable these gatherings of players of Irish (and some other) traditional music to qualify their gathering to be referred to as a "Session", that is, let's face it, it's one helluva loose definition.
So again we can go from the sublime, which must be exemplified by "The Tape"..of the "Out of the Window" session with Jacky Daly, Mairead Mooney, Frankie Kennedy and Mick O'Connor...or maybe that Music at Matt Molloys recording (personally I prefer The Tape - less contrived)....all the way through to some of the recent shenanigans at one local (to us) hostelry, named after the Greek member of our blessed royal family.
There was a bloke there recently who was moaning away at a song in Gaeilge(Irish).....the problem was, he was reading it off a sheet of paper, which he must have jotted down all the sounds phonetically, if you like.
I knew he was at it, so I mischievously tested him with some basic G
It's not always easy to play along with some of these singers. It's not uncommon for them to sing half way between keys. I'm not talking about a semi-tone or one fret up/down but say somewhere between F sharp and G, for example.
Again, I know that some musicians have a frustrating habit of playing out of tune also. The "It was in tune when I bought it" or "Near enough for folk" types.
Danny is absolutely right ...there are singers and there are "Singers"....the percentage thing is spot on too.
At the session I attended at the Herschel a few weeks ago there were mainly instrumentalists but we all sat enthralled when Helen Roche sang her songs. You could, as they say, hear a pin drop...indeed one did drop and we heard it, but fortunately it was in the same key as the song.
No-one started muttering about the time lost to play tunes..(it didn't matter much as the session was still going strong when I wimped out a 2 a.m. when my helicopter arrived) but we all enjoyed what is an essential part of the tradition anyway. I can't understand instrumentalists who are so against songs sung with feeling. (The usual caveats about singers who want to take over the session not withstanding)...does that bracket make sense? My brain has just gone on to screensaver.
radriano,dub
in reply to ur little outburst!what nauseates me is people who are singers and "think" they are instrumentalists!just cos u cant play all the tunes u think u need ur little 5minutes of fame by warbling senselessly while al we can do is try and get comfortable and check out the talent in the bar!
wheras a few minutes earlierther wer gorgeous flowing,tunes,making the hairs stand on the back of ur neck only for "you people" to come and ruin it!
Re: The best singers are those who don't (anymore)
Many of these "sinners" don't seem to realise they are performing in front of very competent musicians (who are evil to each other, never mind to people who take up valuable tune-time) and they will get ripped to bits if they do not give a good account of themselves.
In my mob are 4 ex-choristers, all voice trained, 3 still singing in cathedrals but we do not sing in the session ..... because we can sing.
If you asked around the average session, you would probably find more competent singers who don't sing anymore, than hopefulls.
To prove the point, we had had complaints from the people who want to try their latest blues on us that we did not give them a chance. So the next week, I asked one of the bluesies if they would give us a song (at 8.20pm), but it was "too early", so we ignored them. The next week, everyone was surprised when I (an anti-singer) announced that as we had had complaints from singers, we were going to go around the room for everyone to sing a song (from memory).
Yes, you guessed, all the musicians managed to raise a song and the biggest applause was for some of the non-playing session supporters who sit and listen every week, who sang some of the best offerings. The "sinners" were shown up and the subject has not been brought up since.
Actually I half agree with needaliver -it amazes me how some people call themselves singers and are so shockingly bad. On the other hand my father was a great singer and I'm used to hearing real talent. If you are a good singer then absolutly welcome at the sessions I go to. (Looking forward to Helen coming for a visit as I've only ever heard great things We dont really have a problem with singer/tuner stand offs here, there are quite definate sessions in sydney. For example the one I'm going to today not one of us can sing -or would try to (lucky for everbody - trust me). But as I said the other day - we were at a party a few months back -cranking it up, we let one person sing...and yes - about 40 minutes and bloody 7 songs later there was a huge fight, needless to say it didnt turn out to be the best session ever! I guess what I'm trying to say - if a singer is good - then fabulous - I love that. If a singer is bad - dont bother. easy!
Yeah I love the name "needaliver"....hahahahhahaha......
Um..back to the topic, well Burlington doesn't have any good Irish singers that I can think of at the moment which is a total shame and another reason why I just want to leave this gosh darn wilderness ...ugh......
I'm really looking forward to hearing Helen at FKW in Donegal this winter : )
Hey Joyce you would have been proud of me and bb last night. After another 13 hour drinking session, I was found by my friends in the middle of the road with cars whizzing past me, picking up bottle tops thinking they were 20 cent pieces. Today we're nursing hangovers and hanging out on thesession.org waiting for the next session which happens in 3 hours when we can finally carry on drinking!
Mark, that's totally funny and sounds like something I would do. I think I would definitely have fun down in Sydney! Tonight at dinner my husband said that Oz has a great music scene and maybe we could try that out for a year or two...I almost fell off my seat...(well of course I know Sydney has great sessions and great people!!) But my husband was drunk when he said that and probably won't remember it in the morning : (
Wow a 13 hour drinking session! Sounds good to me : )
Its all about practice Zina I think I play much better after a few to relax the ole joints - come to think of it, I'm probably just drunk & I probably sound awful. Seriously tho - last night was a big one - friends up from melbourne who are awesome muso's.
Joyce - come to sydney - you will have a great time!! We have two friends from clare arriving tuesday (concertina and fiddle) on a 1 year visa - the tunes will be flying!!!
Er...sorry, but it's not something I would do, I don't think. I like a drink, for sure, but I don't see any point in it if you can't hold it..especially when you endanger your own safety. My specialities are things like the aforementioned speaking in phrasebook Gaelic to yer man the crap singer, or trying to explain Special Relativity and falling asleep half-way through.
I've also been known to burst into song(!), but hopefully I'd have made a better job of The Muckin' o Geordie's Byre, or The David Trimble Song, than some of the reptiles that try to pass themselves off as singers I've recently heard at sessions.
Also, if you're going to be giving out about anyone here, and comparing them to the dreaded Tanya Lee, who was it who found us people nauseating anyway?
He had a wife as sweere (severe) as himsel'
And a daughter as black as the devil himsel'
You could have some fun, haud awa' the smell
At the Muckin' O' Geordie's byre.
Last Friday night I attended the opposite of yer "all instrumental" session and got stuck playing backup to three hours of singng. The dolbro player was in my way and I didn't want to barge out in the middle of a song. They kept them coming one after another. Later in another jamming circle I asked if anybody knew any trad instrumental stuff and I got a bunch of blank looks. I finally called out a couple and then called out chords as the song progressed but they got it and had smiles when they got done. . .didn't change things however and the singing went on and on. I figured that if they didn't take to my style then forget it. I had no more right to force my tunes on a bunch of people who were having the time of their lives than to force my incredibly horroble voice on a bunch who were into instrumental tunes. Suggest twice then leave it alone I guess.
Just tried posting but it disappeared. It was about morris-dancing, an Hungarian hurdy-gurdy, a local psychopath, centres-of-gravity, singing, me english, me irish...stuff like that. Disappeared!
Danny, I would never speak in phrasebook Gaelic to show someone up, and I would never talk about Special Relativity at a session. Getting drunk is much more fun. No doubt my granddad would have disapproved of me too
Oh, and I wasn't talking about special relativity AT a session...that would be the ultimate of geekiness. It was at an after-a-session beers at someone's house kinda gathering. Anyway,we discussed this a while back.
well im definitely not tanya but finally some1realised i was stirrin the pot!but jaysus its some goin wen u get 40 odd responses!and in explaination of my name,the first time i was on this site was after a2week binge (come on dow, 13hrs??u need to get into training boyo) needless to say i was in the horrors and dyin four deaths so the name felt just about rite at the time!!
went down to the butchers yesterday looking for 1but they didnt have one in my size!
jrathbun mentioned a dobro player - just another thing about singing - some good bluegrass seshs have 80% songs 20% tunes - the 3-part vocal harmony can be great to listen to (contrast IT solo singing), and the playing is good too - I know its not IT but it's something to think about (and if you hate bluegrass don't even bother thinking!!)
Having been party to the antics of some of the singers who Danny eviscerates so ruthlessly, I have to say that I'm on his side.
However, I'm not against singers or songs per se.
(Let's not forget that many "musicians" were/are also renowned for their ability to put a song across as well as they put across a tune - Willie Clancy, Seamus Ennis, Brendan Begley, Packie Byrne, Triona Ni Domhnaill, need I go on?)
The difficulty is that many insensitive singers don't appreciate the dynamic of the session as a form. There is room for individual "performance" within the session; but the overwhelming need/desire of musicians to play *together* means that the opportunities for such occasions is limited.
So, if a singer of quality contributes two or three beautiful songs, beautifully delivered over the course of an evening, that will surely be acceptable to any regular sessioneer.
If, however, someone sees a session as an opportunity to sing a load of oul bull, badly, then they simply intrude on the time available to the majority of people in the session to do what they want to do - i.e. play music together.
I suspect that people would feel exactly the same way as they do about singers if an instrumentalist turned up at a session and insisted on playing a load of airs solo. If the musician was outstanding s/he would probably get away with it for two or three tunes. But there'd soon be mutterings if they continued to eat into the time allotted to dance tunes.
It all boils down to taste, yet again. I'm always willing to give good order and house-room and my full attention to singers. But if all they want to do is to sing (badly) 20-verse epics full of significant dates (to highlight just one example of the sort of song that a local session-haunter used to deliver regularly), then I'm not going to want to sit through more than one!
(As for the geezer singing his sean-nos from a book ... that was simply surreal, disturbing, ultimately hilarious ... I'm sure it was a wind-up, a piece of performance art ... no?)
No - that's the way he sounds. A high pitched, out of tune moan. The first time I heard him I seriously thought he was having a heart attack.
But reading from a copied out sheet of paper was, like you say, just ridiculous. As I mentioned, he must have just copied the sounds down phonetically. Like the way you see it in thon phrase books that you never bother to use when yer going yer holidays.
Oooohhh ... it's all coming back to me now ... I did hear yer man, but it was such a noise he was making I couldn't tell what language he was using; there was some discussion at the bar as to what it might be. No conclusion was reached, as I remember.
Frank Harte used a cheat-sheet yesterday, but we let him off.
A wurlitzer at a session - hmmmm?? That might be something all right. At least it would drown out the piano key accordeon and any crap singers that might stray by ***
come all ye
come all ye
is anyone else sick to the back teeth of singers comin in and feelin hard done by at TUNE sessions because people ignore them!why dont they organise ther own singin sessions and leave us al alone!!
# Posted on September 19th 2003 by needaliver
Re: come all ye
Yes
# Posted on September 19th 2003 by showaddydadito
Re: come all ye
Yes, it is a bit annoying....but a *really good* singer can sing just one song at a tune session (invited to sing or not) and have *musicians* asking for more...but in my experience good singers are *very* rare. And if they're not good singers then they won't have other really good ones propping them up - hence few singing sessions, and the reason they turn up at tune sessions.
Jim
# Posted on September 19th 2003 by Worldfiddler
Re: come all ye
Actually I feel sad that singing isn't welcomed more at sessions. Singing is as much a part of traditional music as tune sessions are. In fact, I'm sick to my stomach of instrumentalists with tunnel vision who want to restrict sessions to just reels, played as blindingly fast as possible and, in most cases, with no real feel for the music.
Yeah, I'm a singer and an instrumentalist. You people are nauseating.
# Posted on September 19th 2003 by radriano
Re: come all ye
radriano, you took the words right out of my mouth. Singing should definetly be encouraged more at sessions.
# Posted on September 19th 2003 by dub
Re: come all ye
The problem with a lot of singers is that they want to be the centre of attraction. True, some musicians are just as bad but it really isn't possible just to "blend in" or remain in the background while performing a song as the audience is obliged to listen to that singer. Unless, of course, you bring your own choir and that might be closer to a gathering of musicians.
Nothwithstanding the above, I have no real objection to the occasional song in a session. Also, you can get some mixed sessions where this tolerated and can be quite pleasant.
John
# Posted on September 19th 2003 by Johnny Jay
Re: come all ye
Radriano, dub,
... fire away.
Why would you *want* to barge into a tune session with your solo act (song)? If you want a stage and an audience create a band, get a gig, and solo all you want. Can you see that what you say could easily be slightly modified to include all session-horrors:
Spoon player: "Sessions should absolutely encourage lots of spoon playing! And bongos! These nausiating people won't even encourage bongos!"
There are drum circles out there for them to bang away to their hearts' content... and there are bands and song sessions and choirs and a million other places for singers to sing. Why should sessions cater to *your* ideas of how things should be done?
Good vibrant topic
# Posted on September 19th 2003 by glenn
Re: come all ye
Spot on, Glenn!
Jim
# Posted on September 19th 2003 by Worldfiddler
Re: come all ye
It might help to remember that today's sessions didn't grow out of one, single-minded tradition. The forerunners were house dances, ceilis, informal gatherings at fleadh, and neighbors sitting in their kitchens. Some of these settings encouraged a variety of participation--instrument playing, dancing, singing, story-telling, jokes, etc. Others were more focused on just the tunes. Some were neighborhood gatherings where everyone joined in the fun, and others more resembled performances.
For the most part, people here have figured out how our session works, and they seem to time these bits and their songs so that it all adds to the craic and flow of the session. Of course, some nights it's all tunes, and the players get into a happy lather...so we enjoy a mix.
Today's sessions come from the same range of motivations, and so there's no single model, no strict standard of compliance. Some sessions welcome singers, and some don't. Seems to me the problem arises when someone inserts a song where it's not welcome, yet the players are too "nice" to say anything about it at the time. The singer--or other singers--are then falsely encouraged to think it's okay to sing another, and then the circle degrades into eye rolling and muttering and heavy breathing.
Our local session encourages songs because we're interested in engaging the whole community. We also get the occasional story, poem, epic joke, and step and ceili dancing. We even had a guy stand up and sing Danny Boy once, and it was brilliant--lovely voice, phrasing, and a wonderful down-to-earth presentation that gave the song back its integrity. (Mind you, he's sung it for us only once in all these years...
But that's just us.
I can understand why people resent an overbearing type who asks to sing one song and then monopolize the session, but none of the singers I've ever heard have done that. And it would be just as bad if another instrumental player did it, right? Which in my experience is a more common problem.
# Posted on September 19th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: come all ye
I've always thought that a reasonable "middle ground" was to do a song with instrumental accompaniment, rather than go a cappella. Granted, if you have too many instruments following you, your vocals may get overwhelmed. But I've had more than a few good experiences where other players come up with a very decent-sounding accompaniment. For me, it can make the song sound entirely new.
# Posted on September 19th 2003 by sts
Re: come all ye
Oh, and somewhat, but not quite, related to the topic of "session-crashers":
Earlier this year, I took part in a large morris-dance performance involving several teams, and after which many of us adjourned to a nearby bar. Of course, after a short while we commenced to singing the requisite sea chanteys, drinking songs, comic songs, etc., most all of them English.
A little while after we started our caterwauling, an elderly gent from elsewhere in the bar came in and sat down with us. I wasn't next to him, so I couldn't hear everything he was saying, but he seemed somewhat intrigued by our singing and finally decided he was going to give it a go.
And so, with shaky, faint voice, he began, "From the halls of Montezu-u-ma/to the shores of Tripoli..."
He barely made it all the way through, and after he was done we all gave him a rousing ovation, and a little while later he went away.
# Posted on September 19th 2003 by sts
Re: come all ye
Radriano, you took the sick right out of my mouth. Nauseating!?!? Even my wife doesn't call me that...except on Sunday mornings.
But let's face it. Like anything else, there are Singers and there are "singers"...whoops! nearly typed in 'sinners'...probably a freudian slip....in the same way there are Flute Players and "flute players", Fiddle Players and "fiddle players", etc. Some people know what they're doing, while others just haven't a clue. And they haven't a clue that they haven't a clue. There's Helen Roche at one end of the spectrum, then at the other end, there's yer man who makes you want to phone an ambulance cos ye think he's gonna die any minute...and we're talking a twelve minute dirge.
I like a healthy mix...one that represents all session participants, in a democratic system of proportional representation, not first past the post. If there are 2 singers in a session of 10 players, they should get 20% of the session time. That's what our proportion was last night and that was near enough how it turned out.
danny.
# Posted on September 19th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: come all ye
Why, what's different about you on Sunday mornings, Daniel? *grin* Personally, I don't care about the "nauseating" part, I want to know what's up with the "you people" thing.
# Posted on September 19th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: come all ye
It seems to me that the sessions that are open to solo singing are usually the same ones that welcome slow airs, and other slower, or less common types of tunes. These sessions also tend to have breathing room between sets, rather than one roaring tune set after another. I regularly play one of each type of session, and both have their merrits. If you really want to play, or if you're a dancer and need long tune sets, tune sessions are great. If you want to relax, listen, hear some new stuff, and maybe play some obscure stuff too, the other session is the better of the two.
I've also noticed that singers that sing songs that have a simple, easy-to-pick-up melodic line, a good story and a reasonable key are usually welcome anywhere, especially if they leave room for instrumental breaks. Then everyone can play (hopefully tastefully and not too loud while the singer is singing) and it just adds so much to the session.
Ofcourse people who yowl slightly off pitch, song after song, are rarely welcomed anywhere, including song sessions.
# Posted on September 19th 2003 by fiddleK
Re: come all ye
Zina - Ok then, every morning, but particularly Sundays, as they follow Saturday (the very occasional beer) nights, need I continue?
But I'll betcha we're all generalising about this...because, although they all follow certain rituals which enable these gatherings of players of Irish (and some other) traditional music to qualify their gathering to be referred to as a "Session", that is, let's face it, it's one helluva loose definition.
So again we can go from the sublime, which must be exemplified by "The Tape"..of the "Out of the Window" session with Jacky Daly, Mairead Mooney, Frankie Kennedy and Mick O'Connor...or maybe that Music at Matt Molloys recording (personally I prefer The Tape - less contrived)....all the way through to some of the recent shenanigans at one local (to us) hostelry, named after the Greek member of our blessed royal family.
There was a bloke there recently who was moaning away at a song in Gaeilge(Irish).....the problem was, he was reading it off a sheet of paper, which he must have jotted down all the sounds phonetically, if you like.
I knew he was at it, so I mischievously tested him with some basic G
# Posted on September 19th 2003 by Rudall the time
In between keys
It's not always easy to play along with some of these singers. It's not uncommon for them to sing half way between keys. I'm not talking about a semi-tone or one fret up/down but say somewhere between F sharp and G, for example.
Again, I know that some musicians have a frustrating habit of playing out of tune also. The "It was in tune when I bought it" or "Near enough for folk" types.
John
# Posted on September 19th 2003 by Johnny Jay
Re: come all ye
Well, Danny - that's showbiz!
Jim
# Posted on September 19th 2003 by Worldfiddler
Re: come all ye
Danny is absolutely right ...there are singers and there are "Singers"....the percentage thing is spot on too.
At the session I attended at the Herschel a few weeks ago there were mainly instrumentalists but we all sat enthralled when Helen Roche sang her songs. You could, as they say, hear a pin drop...indeed one did drop and we heard it, but fortunately it was in the same key as the song.
No-one started muttering about the time lost to play tunes..(it didn't matter much as the session was still going strong when I wimped out a 2 a.m. when my helicopter arrived) but we all enjoyed what is an essential part of the tradition anyway. I can't understand instrumentalists who are so against songs sung with feeling. (The usual caveats about singers who want to take over the session not withstanding)...does that bracket make sense? My brain has just gone on to screensaver.
I'm off to learn the second verse of Danny Boy.
# Posted on September 20th 2003 by Geoff Pollitt
Re: come all ye
radriano,dub
in reply to ur little outburst!what nauseates me is people who are singers and "think" they are instrumentalists!just cos u cant play all the tunes u think u need ur little 5minutes of fame by warbling senselessly while al we can do is try and get comfortable and check out the talent in the bar!
wheras a few minutes earlierther wer gorgeous flowing,tunes,making the hairs stand on the back of ur neck only for "you people" to come and ruin it!
dry your eyes!!!!!
# Posted on September 20th 2003 by needaliver
Re: The best singers are those who don't (anymore)
Many of these "sinners" don't seem to realise they are performing in front of very competent musicians (who are evil to each other, never mind to people who take up valuable tune-time) and they will get ripped to bits if they do not give a good account of themselves.
In my mob are 4 ex-choristers, all voice trained, 3 still singing in cathedrals but we do not sing in the session ..... because we can sing.
If you asked around the average session, you would probably find more competent singers who don't sing anymore, than hopefulls.
To prove the point, we had had complaints from the people who want to try their latest blues on us that we did not give them a chance. So the next week, I asked one of the bluesies if they would give us a song (at 8.20pm), but it was "too early", so we ignored them. The next week, everyone was surprised when I (an anti-singer) announced that as we had had complaints from singers, we were going to go around the room for everyone to sing a song (from memory).
Yes, you guessed, all the musicians managed to raise a song and the biggest applause was for some of the non-playing session supporters who sit and listen every week, who sang some of the best offerings. The "sinners" were shown up and the subject has not been brought up since.
# Posted on September 20th 2003 by geoffwright
Re: come all ye
Hmmmm!
I think that needaliver is a windup merchant in the Tanya Lee class.
# Posted on September 20th 2003 by Geoff Pollitt
Re: come all ye
Geoff, don't know who Tanya Lee is but finally someone gets it!
Come on the continuity comhaltas!!
# Posted on September 20th 2003 by breandan
Re: come all ye
u haven't lived if u ain't heard of tanya lee. need a liver is of the same mould, right enough. need a bit more tact, needaliver.
# Posted on September 20th 2003 by Johnny Jay
Re: come all ye
"liver" is definitely tanya or a very good imitation of....
# Posted on September 20th 2003 by Andee
Re: come all ye
Bridie and I had a look at this site together last night and we both think that the name "needaliver" is hilarious!
# Posted on September 20th 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: come all ye
Actually I half agree with needaliver -it amazes me how some people call themselves singers and are so shockingly bad. On the other hand my father was a great singer and I'm used to hearing real talent. If you are a good singer then absolutly welcome at the sessions I go to. (Looking forward to Helen coming for a visit as I've only ever heard great things
We dont really have a problem with singer/tuner stand offs here, there are quite definate sessions in sydney. For example the one I'm going to today not one of us can sing -or would try to (lucky for everbody - trust me). But as I said the other day - we were at a party a few months back -cranking it up, we let one person sing...and yes - about 40 minutes and bloody 7 songs later there was a huge fight, needless to say it didnt turn out to be the best session ever! I guess what I'm trying to say - if a singer is good - then fabulous - I love that. If a singer is bad - dont bother. easy!
# Posted on September 20th 2003 by bb
Re: come all ye
Yeah I love the name "needaliver"....hahahahhahaha......
Um..back to the topic, well Burlington doesn't have any good Irish singers that I can think of at the moment which is a total shame and another reason why I just want to leave this gosh darn wilderness ...ugh......
I'm really looking forward to hearing Helen at FKW in Donegal this winter : )
Joyce
# Posted on September 20th 2003 by JMH
Re: come all ye
"Gosh darn"! Golly gosh goodness gracious me Joyce are you jolly well finished?
You're not usually on the Aussie shift...
# Posted on September 20th 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: come all ye
Hey Joyce you would have been proud of me and bb last night. After another 13 hour drinking session, I was found by my friends in the middle of the road with cars whizzing past me, picking up bottle tops thinking they were 20 cent pieces. Today we're nursing hangovers and hanging out on thesession.org waiting for the next session which happens in 3 hours when we can finally carry on drinking!
# Posted on September 20th 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: come all ye
*Proud* that you guys are total alcoholics?! LOL Sure, I know, you can give it up at any time...
# Posted on September 20th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: come all ye
Don't tell me, you never touch the stuff
# Posted on September 20th 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: come all ye
Mark, that's totally funny and sounds like something I would do. I think I would definitely have fun down in Sydney! Tonight at dinner my husband said that Oz has a great music scene and maybe we could try that out for a year or two...I almost fell off my seat...(well of course I know Sydney has great sessions and great people!!) But my husband was drunk when he said that and probably won't remember it in the morning : (
Wow a 13 hour drinking session! Sounds good to me : )
Joyce
# Posted on September 20th 2003 by JMH
Re: come all ye
If only I could be so virtuous, Mark! However, my ability to play falls abruptly completely away after two drinks, so that's my limit. ;)
# Posted on September 20th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: come all ye
Its all about practice Zina
I think I play much better after a few to relax the ole joints - come to think of it, I'm probably just drunk & I probably sound awful. Seriously tho - last night was a big one - friends up from melbourne who are awesome muso's.
Joyce - come to sydney - you will have a great time!! We have two friends from clare arriving tuesday (concertina and fiddle) on a 1 year visa - the tunes will be flying!!!
# Posted on September 20th 2003 by bb
Re: come all ye
Er...sorry, but it's not something I would do, I don't think. I like a drink, for sure, but I don't see any point in it if you can't hold it..especially when you endanger your own safety. My specialities are things like the aforementioned speaking in phrasebook Gaelic to yer man the crap singer, or trying to explain Special Relativity and falling asleep half-way through.
I've also been known to burst into song(!), but hopefully I'd have made a better job of The Muckin' o Geordie's Byre, or The David Trimble Song, than some of the reptiles that try to pass themselves off as singers I've recently heard at sessions.
Also, if you're going to be giving out about anyone here, and comparing them to the dreaded Tanya Lee, who was it who found us people nauseating anyway?
Danny.
# Posted on September 20th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: come all ye
He had a wife as sweere (severe) as himsel'
And a daughter as black as the devil himsel'
You could have some fun, haud awa' the smell
At the Muckin' O' Geordie's byre.
# Posted on September 20th 2003 by Johnny Jay
Re: come all ye
Last Friday night I attended the opposite of yer "all instrumental" session and got stuck playing backup to three hours of singng. The dolbro player was in my way and I didn't want to barge out in the middle of a song. They kept them coming one after another. Later in another jamming circle I asked if anybody knew any trad instrumental stuff and I got a bunch of blank looks. I finally called out a couple and then called out chords as the song progressed but they got it and had smiles when they got done. . .didn't change things however and the singing went on and on. I figured that if they didn't take to my style then forget it. I had no more right to force my tunes on a bunch of people who were having the time of their lives than to force my incredibly horroble voice on a bunch who were into instrumental tunes. Suggest twice then leave it alone I guess.
# Posted on September 21st 2003 by jrathbun
Re: come all ye liver donors
The penny hasn't dropped with "needaliver" yet.
Needanewliver is more my style.
# Posted on September 21st 2003 by geoffwright
Re: come all ye
Just tried posting but it disappeared. It was about morris-dancing, an Hungarian hurdy-gurdy, a local psychopath, centres-of-gravity, singing, me english, me irish...stuff like that. Disappeared!
# Posted on September 21st 2003 by greenman
Ah! So that one worked! Where's the other one, then? Eh? Eh?
# Posted on September 21st 2003 by greenman
Re: come all ye
LOL The universe is out to get you, green.
# Posted on September 21st 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: come all ye
Danny, I would never speak in phrasebook Gaelic to show someone up, and I would never talk about Special Relativity at a session. Getting drunk is much more fun. No doubt my granddad would have disapproved of me too
# Posted on September 21st 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: come all ye
Maybe you wouldn't, Dow, but you've never heard that guy trying to sing.
# Posted on September 21st 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: come all ye
Oh, and I wasn't talking about special relativity AT a session...that would be the ultimate of geekiness. It was at an after-a-session beers at someone's house kinda gathering. Anyway,we discussed this a while back.
# Posted on September 21st 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: come all ye
well im definitely not tanya but finally some1realised i was stirrin the pot!but jaysus its some goin wen u get 40 odd responses!and in explaination of my name,the first time i was on this site was after a2week binge (come on dow, 13hrs??u need to get into training boyo) needless to say i was in the horrors and dyin four deaths so the name felt just about rite at the time!!
went down to the butchers yesterday looking for 1but they didnt have one in my size!
# Posted on September 21st 2003 by needaliver
Re: come all ye
Yeah at least I stop to get some sleep. Good maybe I don't have a problem after all
# Posted on September 21st 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: come all ye
jrathbun mentioned a dobro player - just another thing about singing - some good bluegrass seshs have 80% songs 20% tunes - the 3-part vocal harmony can be great to listen to (contrast IT solo singing), and the playing is good too - I know its not IT but it's something to think about (and if you hate bluegrass don't even bother thinking!!)
Jim
# Posted on September 21st 2003 by Worldfiddler
Singers ...
The perennial source of discontent, eh?!
Having been party to the antics of some of the singers who Danny eviscerates so ruthlessly, I have to say that I'm on his side.
However, I'm not against singers or songs per se.
(Let's not forget that many "musicians" were/are also renowned for their ability to put a song across as well as they put across a tune - Willie Clancy, Seamus Ennis, Brendan Begley, Packie Byrne, Triona Ni Domhnaill, need I go on?)
The difficulty is that many insensitive singers don't appreciate the dynamic of the session as a form. There is room for individual "performance" within the session; but the overwhelming need/desire of musicians to play *together* means that the opportunities for such occasions is limited.
So, if a singer of quality contributes two or three beautiful songs, beautifully delivered over the course of an evening, that will surely be acceptable to any regular sessioneer.
If, however, someone sees a session as an opportunity to sing a load of oul bull, badly, then they simply intrude on the time available to the majority of people in the session to do what they want to do - i.e. play music together.
I suspect that people would feel exactly the same way as they do about singers if an instrumentalist turned up at a session and insisted on playing a load of airs solo. If the musician was outstanding s/he would probably get away with it for two or three tunes. But there'd soon be mutterings if they continued to eat into the time allotted to dance tunes.
It all boils down to taste, yet again. I'm always willing to give good order and house-room and my full attention to singers. But if all they want to do is to sing (badly) 20-verse epics full of significant dates (to highlight just one example of the sort of song that a local session-haunter used to deliver regularly), then I'm not going to want to sit through more than one!
(As for the geezer singing his sean-nos from a book ... that was simply surreal, disturbing, ultimately hilarious ... I'm sure it was a wind-up, a piece of performance art ... no?)
# Posted on September 21st 2003 by Aidan Crossey
Re: come all ye
No - that's the way he sounds. A high pitched, out of tune moan. The first time I heard him I seriously thought he was having a heart attack.
But reading from a copied out sheet of paper was, like you say, just ridiculous. As I mentioned, he must have just copied the sounds down phonetically. Like the way you see it in thon phrase books that you never bother to use when yer going yer holidays.
# Posted on September 22nd 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: come all ye
Surreal, disturbing, dire it might have been, but I'm sorry to have missed it. If it happens again in my presence I'll be happy to offer him CPR.
# Posted on September 22nd 2003 by nastyweegirl
The tape of the out of the window session
...hey Danny, you wouldn't, would you? I'd sure like to hear it ....
# Posted on September 22nd 2003 by nastyweegirl
Re: come all ye
I'd offer him euthenasia. Out of the Window? no worries. I'll try & remember by thursday.
# Posted on September 22nd 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: come all ye
What I didn't tell you was that CPR on a still-beating heart can cause arrhythmias, and subsequently ....well, what's requiescat in pace in Gaelic?
I'm not "nasty" for nothing!
# Posted on September 22nd 2003 by nastyweegirl
Re: come all ye
Oooohhh ... it's all coming back to me now ... I did hear yer man, but it was such a noise he was making I couldn't tell what language he was using; there was some discussion at the bar as to what it might be. No conclusion was reached, as I remember.
Frank Harte used a cheat-sheet yesterday, but we let him off.
# Posted on September 22nd 2003 by nastyweegirl
Re: come all ye
Thanks Danny, thanks Geoff! *blush*...
ohmygod, now I've got a world-wide reputation to live up to... scary scary...
# Posted on September 23rd 2003 by Nell
Re: come all ye
..and you should hear Helen play The Bucks on Wurlitzer organ!
# Posted on September 23rd 2003 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: come all ye
That I have to see.
# Posted on September 23rd 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: come all ye
Oh, I don't take the Wurlitzer to sessions anymore. It's much easier to take the Glockenspiel.
# Posted on September 23rd 2003 by Nell
Re: come all ye
A wurlitzer at a session - hmmmm?? That might be something all right. At least it would drown out the piano key accordeon and any crap singers that might stray by ***
# Posted on September 24th 2003 by breandan