I have a question for anyone who might know something about a fiddle... I just bought an old looking fiddle in a second hand furniture shop in Sydney, Aus. and I'm curious to learn anything about its history. The only distinguishing feature I can find is an 'N' carved on the heel... unless you turn it on the side, and it's a 'Z'. I'd say it is hand made of the right timbers. It came in a solid timber case, with nice floral wallpaper. and inside the case there was a solid ebony violin mute, and a tunning pipe made in checkoslovakia.
It's a bit smaller than my skylark, and I hope when I get some strings on it it will sound a bit nicer.
Has anyone got any suggestions as to how I might find out more about it.
Send pics to a specialised dealer or pay for a valuation.. We did this with my Grandfathers Fiddle and were amazed at its age and value. What did u buy it for if u dont mind me asking? a second hand furniture shop wouldnt necessarily have known what they had! Then again..Is it in good condition apart from no strings??u could end up having to insure it ! We also have the body of a Fake stratovarius in the attic..pretty obvious fake though but interesting nonetheless
Thank for the reply. You are helping me maintain my excitement thru the working day.
He wanted AU$250, but I got him down to $200 with cash... I'll give him the benefit of the doubt - he said he didn't know anything about it, or violins...
I'd say the condition it looking very promising. It was covered in some greasy resin type substance, and very dusty and dirty, but I wiped it down and the finish is still in pretty good condition. All the joints are looking very tight, and there are no cracks that I have found... what was left of the old strings - I think is gut. There is very little sign of wear on the finger board, but the back of the neck has wear from where the thumb would rest. This makes me wonder now if the finger board has been replaced.
There are the small scratches and dings you would expect from something old.
You guys are reminding me of an incident in my past. An acquaintance of mine had picked up a fiddle at an estate sale. He was told that it was the late owner's second-best fiddle, and it was late in the day of the sale, so he got it for a mere 100 dollars (US). I tried it out, it sounded better than my good fiddle, so I offered him 200 bucks for it, on the spot. No luck. His wife was talking about learning to play it, and they kept it.
An 'old' fiddle with no label? You can be 99% certain it is a late C19/early C20 German trade fiddle - they churned them out in the same way that the Chinese are doing today.
That said, some of them are quite reasonable and you may well have a very playable instrument - just don't expect it to be worth a lot.
The 'N' on the button means nothing, probably carved by an owner. The wear pattern on the neck is normal - the neck is sycamore, with a very thin coat of french polish, which starts to look worn very quickly. With gut strings the ebony fingerboard goes a very long time before it starts to show any signs of wear.
To get some idea of the quality of the instrument, take the end pin out and look inside through the hole.
If there are linings round the joints between the sides and front/back, and a block of wood in each of the corners, then it is a reasonable quality instrument. If those features are missing then it is one of the very low quality ones, and not worth spending any money on.
As far as ther joints are concerned, don't just look at them, lightly rap all round the edges of the soundboard and back with your knuckle - it should make a nice dull knock - if there is a seam open it will 'clack' like a castinet. But open seams aren't really a problem, they are very easily fixed. Cracks in the soundboard or back are much more serious.
If you don;t know anything about the instrument, then you shouldn't pay for an appraisal. The appraisal step should come only if you know what it's worth and you want to insure it.
First check the telephone directory for "violins" or something similar. If you bring it to a specialist (and he's not terribly busy), a lot of times he'll look at it for free. I knew a guy who made a lot of his money and inventory by doing this free of charge, often buying the things that people would bring to him. He laughed when he told me that the bow which came with my junker fiddle was worth about seven times what I paid for the instrument...
If it is smaller than your Skylark, is it full size?
'A decent maker normally has some sort of label ' . . well, yes and no. Labels can fall out, fake labels can be put in. Never rely on a label - or it's absence.
'An 'old' fiddle with no label? You can be 99% certain it is a late C19/early C20 German trade fiddle.'Well maybe. On the other hand some interesting old fiddleshave no labels. See above.
Some makers did stamp their fiddles, but yes, it could be an owners mark, possibly a school fiddle?
However, it will sound better than your Skylark. Anything will sound better. I still remember mine - and give thanks for the fiddles I've had since!
"On the other hand some interesting old fiddles have no labels. See above:"
True, but they don't turn up in coffin cases in antique shops. Good fiddles belong to good fiddlers, and they (and their families) always know their worth.
I've been buying and selling fiddles for thirty five years, and still haven't found the Amati for £100 that will let me retire
Unless there is some record of a notable fiddle-maker carving a 'Z' into his fiddles, you will possibly never know any more.
The only real question is "How does it sound and feel?".
If it's good to and for you, treasure it for that.
There is a lot of guff talked about values of instruments - there's what you paid for it, what you might have to pay to replace it, what it is valued at in some catalogue or other.
All this is tosh apart from those points when you want to buy or sell one. The rest of the time it's what it means to you, and what you can do with it, that counts.
c.g. - your question about "do you tell them" when you realise you've been offered a very valuable instrument...
A lawyer was paid in high-denonimation banknotes for a piece of work his partnership did. He counted the money then and there and quickly realised that unknown to the client, quite a few of the new banknotes were stuck together, which meant he'd been given much more money than the client realised. Which left him with the inevitable lawyer's ethical question: should he tell his partners?
I made a tool out of part of a coat hanger, and got the sound post in place and put some mandolin strings I had on there, and it does indeed sound much nicer than my skylark...
there is a bit of a buzzing sound on the A string only when it is open (not too bad I think), but otherwise with my limited knowledge I'd say it is in perfect playing order.
I've picked up a set of fiddle strings today and I can't wait to get home.
I'm not sure if it is 3/4. I'll see if I can look up the dimensions and measure it tonight
A dying farmer called his 3 best friends, the priest, the doctor and the lawyer. 'I know I can't take it with me' he said, 'but I'm going to try. I'm going to give you each an envelope with £25,000 in cash and I want you each to throw the envelopes in the grave with me'
After the funeral the three met in the pub. 'I'm so ashamed' said the priest 'I took £10,000 for the church roof fund'
'Me too' said the doctor 'I took £15,000 for a new children's centre'
'I'm disgusted at you two' said the lawyer.'I put in a cheque for the full amount'
"there is a bit of a buzzing sound on the A string only when it is open (not too bad I think), but otherwise with my limited knowledge I'd say it is in perfect playing order."
Wait and see what happens with proper strings on, but it may be that the nut is cut too low. A rough check is to slip a business card under the strings - you should be able to slide it right up to the nut, and all the strings should be just touching it when it gets there. If it is too low, a quick fix is to fill the slot with black CA (you can use the ordinary clear stuff, but it will show) then re-cut the slot.
One other bit of advice: if the instrument has been sitting unstrung for a long while take a look at the tail-gut that holds the tail piece. If it is gut replace it (preferably with a nylon one) when you put the new strings on. It can cause a lot of damage if it snaps.
I inherited my grandfather's fiddle and, although it's from 1910, it isn't worth too much even restored as they were pretty widely produced. That said, it sounds far nicer than the new one I've got.
fiddle with 'N' carved on the heel...
fiddle with 'N' carved on the heel...
Hi everyone,
I have a question for anyone who might know something about a fiddle... I just bought an old looking fiddle in a second hand furniture shop in Sydney, Aus. and I'm curious to learn anything about its history. The only distinguishing feature I can find is an 'N' carved on the heel... unless you turn it on the side, and it's a 'Z'. I'd say it is hand made of the right timbers. It came in a solid timber case, with nice floral wallpaper. and inside the case there was a solid ebony violin mute, and a tunning pipe made in checkoslovakia.
It's a bit smaller than my skylark, and I hope when I get some strings on it it will sound a bit nicer.
Has anyone got any suggestions as to how I might find out more about it.
Thanks
# Posted on May 11th 2009 by juma
Re: fiddle with 'N' carved on the heel...
Send pics to a specialised dealer or pay for a valuation.. We did this with my Grandfathers Fiddle and were amazed at its age and value. What did u buy it for if u dont mind me asking? a second hand furniture shop wouldnt necessarily have known what they had! Then again..Is it in good condition apart from no strings??u could end up having to insure it ! We also have the body of a Fake stratovarius in the attic..pretty obvious fake though but interesting nonetheless
# Posted on May 11th 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: fiddle with 'N' carved on the heel...
Thank for the reply. You are helping me maintain my excitement thru the working day.
He wanted AU$250, but I got him down to $200 with cash... I'll give him the benefit of the doubt - he said he didn't know anything about it, or violins...
I'd say the condition it looking very promising. It was covered in some greasy resin type substance, and very dusty and dirty, but I wiped it down and the finish is still in pretty good condition. All the joints are looking very tight, and there are no cracks that I have found... what was left of the old strings - I think is gut. There is very little sign of wear on the finger board, but the back of the neck has wear from where the thumb would rest. This makes me wonder now if the finger board has been replaced.
There are the small scratches and dings you would expect from something old.
# Posted on May 11th 2009 by juma
Re: fiddle with 'N' carved on the heel...
I'll give you $220 for it.
# Posted on May 11th 2009 by mcknowall
Re: fiddle with 'N' carved on the heel...
hehe, I might consider this offer after I get a better appraisal
# Posted on May 11th 2009 by juma
Re: fiddle with 'N' carved on the heel...
You guys are reminding me of an incident in my past. An acquaintance of mine had picked up a fiddle at an estate sale. He was told that it was the late owner's second-best fiddle, and it was late in the day of the sale, so he got it for a mere 100 dollars (US). I tried it out, it sounded better than my good fiddle, so I offered him 200 bucks for it, on the spot. No luck. His wife was talking about learning to play it, and they kept it.
I really hope she followed through on that.
# Posted on May 11th 2009 by John Galt
Re: fiddle with 'N' carved on the heel...
Hi There,
The 'N' I wouldn't say says anything about the maker, a decent maker normally has soem sort of paper pasted inside.
Most antique dealers know exactly what they are selling, if he didn't I don't think he could even price it in the first place! These guys are sharks!
# Posted on May 11th 2009 by Shylock
Re: fiddle with 'N' carved on the heel...
just to clarify... I did look in the f holes and there is no label, but there is a dab of blue/green paint where you might expect the label to be
# Posted on May 11th 2009 by juma
Re: fiddle with 'N' carved on the heel...
An 'old' fiddle with no label? You can be 99% certain it is a late C19/early C20 German trade fiddle - they churned them out in the same way that the Chinese are doing today.
That said, some of them are quite reasonable and you may well have a very playable instrument - just don't expect it to be worth a lot.
The 'N' on the button means nothing, probably carved by an owner. The wear pattern on the neck is normal - the neck is sycamore, with a very thin coat of french polish, which starts to look worn very quickly. With gut strings the ebony fingerboard goes a very long time before it starts to show any signs of wear.
To get some idea of the quality of the instrument, take the end pin out and look inside through the hole.
If there are linings round the joints between the sides and front/back, and a block of wood in each of the corners, then it is a reasonable quality instrument. If those features are missing then it is one of the very low quality ones, and not worth spending any money on.
As far as ther joints are concerned, don't just look at them, lightly rap all round the edges of the soundboard and back with your knuckle - it should make a nice dull knock - if there is a seam open it will 'clack' like a castinet. But open seams aren't really a problem, they are very easily fixed. Cracks in the soundboard or back are much more serious.
# Posted on May 11th 2009 by skreech
Re: fiddle with 'N' carved on the heel...
The N might be a pawnbroker's mark.
# Posted on May 11th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: fiddle with 'N' carved on the heel...
If you don;t know anything about the instrument, then you shouldn't pay for an appraisal. The appraisal step should come only if you know what it's worth and you want to insure it.
First check the telephone directory for "violins" or something similar. If you bring it to a specialist (and he's not terribly busy), a lot of times he'll look at it for free. I knew a guy who made a lot of his money and inventory by doing this free of charge, often buying the things that people would bring to him. He laughed when he told me that the bow which came with my junker fiddle was worth about seven times what I paid for the instrument...
# Posted on May 11th 2009 by gravelwalks
Re: fiddle with 'N' carved on the heel...
If it is smaller than your Skylark, is it full size?
'A decent maker normally has some sort of label ' . . well, yes and no. Labels can fall out, fake labels can be put in. Never rely on a label - or it's absence.
'An 'old' fiddle with no label? You can be 99% certain it is a late C19/early C20 German trade fiddle.'Well maybe. On the other hand some interesting old fiddleshave no labels. See above.
Some makers did stamp their fiddles, but yes, it could be an owners mark, possibly a school fiddle?
However, it will sound better than your Skylark. Anything will sound better. I still remember mine - and give thanks for the fiddles I've had since!
# Posted on May 11th 2009 by c.g.
Re: fiddle with 'N' carved on the heel...
"On the other hand some interesting old fiddles have no labels. See above:"
True, but they don't turn up in coffin cases in antique shops. Good fiddles belong to good fiddlers, and they (and their families) always know their worth.
I've been buying and selling fiddles for thirty five years, and still haven't found the Amati for £100 that will let me retire
# Posted on May 11th 2009 by skreech
Re: fiddle with 'N' carved on the heel...
True, but they don't turn up in coffin cases in antique shops - oh they do, they do, but always to other people!
However, interesting fiddles, if not quite in the Amati-and-retire league, do turn up in the possession of people who don't know their value.
Question is, do you tell them?
# Posted on May 11th 2009 by c.g.
Re: fiddle with 'N' carved on the heel...
Unless there is some record of a notable fiddle-maker carving a 'Z' into his fiddles, you will possibly never know any more.
The only real question is "How does it sound and feel?".
If it's good to and for you, treasure it for that.
There is a lot of guff talked about values of instruments - there's what you paid for it, what you might have to pay to replace it, what it is valued at in some catalogue or other.
All this is tosh apart from those points when you want to buy or sell one. The rest of the time it's what it means to you, and what you can do with it, that counts.
# Posted on May 11th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: fiddle with 'N' carved on the heel...
c.g. - your question about "do you tell them" when you realise you've been offered a very valuable instrument...
A lawyer was paid in high-denonimation banknotes for a piece of work his partnership did. He counted the money then and there and quickly realised that unknown to the client, quite a few of the new banknotes were stuck together, which meant he'd been given much more money than the client realised. Which left him with the inevitable lawyer's ethical question: should he tell his partners?
# Posted on May 11th 2009 by Mark Harmer
UPDATE: fiddle with 'N' carved on the heel...
I made a tool out of part of a coat hanger, and got the sound post in place and put some mandolin strings I had on there, and it does indeed sound much nicer than my skylark...
there is a bit of a buzzing sound on the A string only when it is open (not too bad I think), but otherwise with my limited knowledge I'd say it is in perfect playing order.
I've picked up a set of fiddle strings today and I can't wait to get home.
I'm not sure if it is 3/4. I'll see if I can look up the dimensions and measure it tonight
# Posted on May 12th 2009 by juma
Re: fiddle with 'N' carved on the heel...
Like it Mark!
A dying farmer called his 3 best friends, the priest, the doctor and the lawyer. 'I know I can't take it with me' he said, 'but I'm going to try. I'm going to give you each an envelope with £25,000 in cash and I want you each to throw the envelopes in the grave with me'
After the funeral the three met in the pub. 'I'm so ashamed' said the priest 'I took £10,000 for the church roof fund'
'Me too' said the doctor 'I took £15,000 for a new children's centre'
'I'm disgusted at you two' said the lawyer.'I put in a cheque for the full amount'
# Posted on May 12th 2009 by c.g.
Re: fiddle with 'N' carved on the heel...
"there is a bit of a buzzing sound on the A string only when it is open (not too bad I think), but otherwise with my limited knowledge I'd say it is in perfect playing order."
Wait and see what happens with proper strings on, but it may be that the nut is cut too low. A rough check is to slip a business card under the strings - you should be able to slide it right up to the nut, and all the strings should be just touching it when it gets there. If it is too low, a quick fix is to fill the slot with black CA (you can use the ordinary clear stuff, but it will show) then re-cut the slot.
'Standard' back lengths:
4/4 = 14"
7/8 = 13.5"
3/4 = 13"
# Posted on May 12th 2009 by skreech
Re: fiddle with 'N' carved on the heel...
One other bit of advice: if the instrument has been sitting unstrung for a long while take a look at the tail-gut that holds the tail piece. If it is gut replace it (preferably with a nylon one) when you put the new strings on. It can cause a lot of damage if it snaps.
# Posted on May 12th 2009 by skreech
Re: fiddle with 'N' carved on the heel...
I inherited my grandfather's fiddle and, although it's from 1910, it isn't worth too much even restored as they were pretty widely produced. That said, it sounds far nicer than the new one I've got.
# Posted on May 17th 2009 by Corey Murphy