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fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
This one didn't really register at the time, but I've been thinking about it.
I know that "music competition" is the classic oxymoron and all that, but in the light of ongoing discussions of what constitutes "tune" and what constitutes "decoration/articulation/variation/version" etc., I'm left wondering how "both players must play the tune at all times" can be judged. Have the fleadh people really defined what "tune" is? I think they're bleedin' idiots if they think they have.
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
rule no. 18
'' In competitions for duets and trios, all members must at all times play the melody of the tune''
That's all they say so completely vague as to what happens if players differ with decoration/articulation/variation etc. Probably left to the individual judges interpretation.
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
I'm not a supporter of competitions either but might they not mean that they don't want one of the musicians to play accompaniment?
I'd imagine that they wish the entrants to "play in unison" as opposed to adding a "second part", harmonies, guitar backing etc. As you know, this sort of thing isn't really part of the tradition and is still much less common in Irish music whereas many Scottish players are obsessed with such things.
Having said that, I don't disagree with your comments above. As you say, it is also nigh impossible to define what "the tune" is.... and who is right or wrong.
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
Definitely no guitar just playing backing chords, I know some lads who were disqualified for that, but what if one instrument is playing chords as well as the melody, accordion basses for instance?
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
"at all times play the melody of the tune"
Isn't that tautology? Or are they being clever and ruling out bodhrans? They've just gone up in my estimations.
So ... you can play your regulators on your pipes, but only if you continue to play the tune of your chanter. And you'd be allowed to play some double stops on the fiddle but you've got to keep playing the tune also. Would you be allowed bass pedals? Maybe not, 'cause you have to plug 'em in. What about singing or whistling? You could sing a harmony while you played the tune. That could sound good, especially if you both sang. You coulkd just sing long notes and make chords between you.
But does it say anywhere that you have to play the same bits of the tune at the same time? Could you play phrases of the tune that harmonise with other bits of the tune? You'd still be playing the tune at all times. Or you could make a rif out of a phrase and keep it going all the way. Does it say anywhere that both players must play all of the tune at all times? Or what about one of you playing the tune at exactly half the speed of the other? I've tried that with some tunes, it works great. And there's the one where you play the jig version of a reel over the top of the reel. That sounds good too. Is a jig version of a reel classed as the same tune?
Or maybe they are being deliberately obtuse and they are making a feature out of the fact that all the tunes sound the same. So when they refer to "The Tune" they mean any old tune, because there is only one?
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
How does this effect the Donegal tradition of 'reversing' where the tune is played in concert by one fiddle and in a lower octave by the second simultaneously? Its the same tune but might be too 'jazzy' for comhaltas adjudicators.
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
Surely an octave apart whould be allowed. But what about playing the same tune simultaneously in different keys? Johnny Cunningham did that on a record once, it sounded fab. He played a tune in Amin, Emin, Bmin and F#min all at the same time. sounded fab, really dense.
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
You're right llig, they don't actually specify playing the same bits of the tune at the same time, all they say is what I've quoted above. I'd be very interested to see the reaction from the judge if someone tried out some of your suggestions, because logically, they fit the rules, although I suspect that they would try and argue that they really mean playing the exact same version of the melody in unison.
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
llig, in another discussion you touched on the pipe band competitions and the requirement of uniformity in the execution of ornamentation. Might this be what the fleadh people mean?
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
So they can just disqualify you for any old reason and they don't even have to justify it? And if you go, "hang on a minute, what rule did I break?" they just brand you a troublemaker and make sure their mates know who you are?
I'd like to meet the person who holds the record for the most marks on their card
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
I'd bet that a good lawyer could argue that "at all times must play the melody" only means don't play variations or accompaniment. To my ear, "at all times" means whenever playing, not at every possible moment.
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
Seriously, my point is: How do they define what's variation or version and what's tune and what's articulation/decoration? And They must have criteria if they made a rules. And how do they define accompaniment?
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
You're tripping over your plurals in indignation Michael!
You're totally right about the oxymoron in your OP. But the judges are going to award points based on what? Precise definition of terms is irrelevant, but it's good to have the principle stated as it applies to this wonderful primarily monophonic melodic tradition. Beyond that, it's up to the judges.
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
Having took part in a trio competition in the dim and distant past I recall that whatever you do it has to be the same thing - ie there's no problem using a variation providing everyone in the trio does the same one at the same time. I don't think the ban on harmonies has anything to do with adjudicator limitations, as has been stated, but more to do with tradition where the emphasis has always been on melody (no piper has ever lost marks for use of regulators or drones).
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
I have taken that rule to basically mean no accompaniment. It has never occured to me that it might mean playing in unison with no or limited harmony. On the other hand as I don't enter these competitions I have not had cause to think about it too much.
To be honest, and speaking as a guitarist, if there is a duet's competition to have it made up of, for example a fiddler and some guitar accompaniment is too much like cheating. The whole point is that it is 2 melody players playing together. I am sure it will be much the same with the trios.
A melody player and an accompanist would not have as difficult a task of playing together as a fiddler and flautist for example.
I am not saying that to be a good accompanist is easier than being a good melody player. I don't necessarily think it is but the whole point of the competition is to see how well the two melody instruments are made to fit together - surely!
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
"it is time Comhaltas had a serious look at its daft rules" - a bit of a loaded statement Sporting!
The rules are in fact looked at every three years at Annual Congress where any member can suggest whatever changes they wish, but they have to convince all of the other delegates present to get these implimented. Personally I don't see much wrong with things as they are (those who want a degree of innovation can always go for the Grúpaí Cheoil competitions which allow a bit of latitude in areas such as accompaniment and harmony) as after all we are talking about things traditional.
Bodhrán competition is divided into four age categories: under 12, 12 to 15, 15 to 18, and over 18 (senior). Each competitor must play a tune of his own choice from four of these categories: Air (slow or lively), Jig (double, single, slip), Slide, Reel, Polka, Hornpipe, March, Set Dance. The competitor is accompanied by a single musician, who may be chosen by the competitor. " http://www.ceolas.org/instruments/bodhran/fleadh.shtml
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
"If it ain't broke.............."
By the way, "Bannerman", isn't there a competition category for "accompaniment" these days ? [ Excluding the bodhran, of course ].
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
It means play in unison.
Variations and ornamentation will be expected, but both players have to play them in unison.
I doubt there would be a problem with playing in octaves.
The whole thing means practicing with your partner(s) endlessly, working on a tight performance.
I'm a CCE member of some years, but personally I think this is a complete waste of time that could be much better spent having fun just playing tunes.
A performance like this has by default all the spontaneity taken out of it and just doesn't appel to me. At least in the solo competitions you can just turn up and play without working out the placement of each roll or triplet etc in advance. Although certainly anyone who takes the competition seriously will have done some of this (again, I'd frankly rather spend the time doing something else).
Just my 2c.
But for sure, the idea of the competition is that both players play the same melody line and ornamentation (subject to instrument) at the same time. Variations therefore have to be worked out in advance.
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
If you want to play guitar, bouzouki, piano, harp etc in a duo or trio, then play the tune. Not accomp. Not countermelody.
If you want to play accomp on any of the above, then you want the room next door mate: that's where the're holding the accomp competition. The clue is in the name, see.
If you want to play the bodhran, then you don't want either of those rooms, you want the room at the end of the corridor where the bodhran competition is being held.
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
This reminds me of two young lads who arrived at the Co. Antrim Fleadh competition venue, a few years back, all set for their solo competitions.
Well, they quickly noticed that nobody had entered for the duets, so, knowing that the first two placed, would automatically go through to the regional {Ulster} finals, they decided to throw a few tunes together, thinking they would sail through to the Ulsters.
However, they clearly had no notion of what duet playing was all about as they just rattled each of their tunes out, as if they were at a session.
Yes, you've guessed it .................... & boy were their faces a picture when the judge finally announced that he had placed them ........... THIRD!
Can you imagine the shame of the only duet .... being placed third?
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
"If you want to play guitar, bouzouki, piano, harp etc in a duo or trio, then play the tune. Not accomp. Not countermelody.
If you want to play accomp on any of the above, then you want the room next door mate: that's where the're holding the accomp competition. The clue is in the name, see.
If you want to play the bodhran, then you don't want either of those rooms, you want the room at the end of the corridor where the bodhran competition is being held."
Personally I dont see a problem with this. It is a competition after all. If you don't like it don't enter. Easy.
I also don't have a problem with those 2 guys in Ptarmigan's story being ranked 3rd. People competing in a quiet Fleadh shouldn't find themselves at an advantage over those who are at busier ones. It wouldn't be fair. I am sure the duo who came 3rd in the Fleadh up the road would be annoyed to find that they didn't get through and this pair did if they were considerably better than them.
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
Maybe Comhaltas should change some rules around a bit so we can actually ENJOY playing music in these comps!!!
In my opinion these competitions are a farce. The more you enjoy yourself the worse you do.
My band were in a "traditional talent competition" a few weeks ago. We played a set of tunes really well, with harmonies, chords and variations, since it wasn't a Comhaltas competition. We came joint 2nd and were asked to return for the final. We walked in on the day of the final with a whole new set made out and some really nice ornamentation between the instruments, only to find 3 Comhaltas judges sitting there!
Long story short, we came 3rd and everyone in the room gasped with shock (literally! :L)
We questioned the judges afterwards and they told us they gave us third because it is "Not what they are used to judging"
Anyone else think this was a bit unfair, since is was not specified anywhere not to use chords and counter-melodies????
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
OK Sporting, no offence taken. Anyone who knows me would know that competition is not something I'd profess to know much about and as I said I only entered for the craic some thirty or so years ago. However, perhaps because of this I'd be even less likely to dismiss any rule as "daft" particularly when no onene has seen fit to challenge it for the last fifty years or more. It never bothered the likes of Gus Tierney and Jerry Lynch or Paddy Murphy and Peter O'Loughlin who were very worthy winners in these competitions so I also go along with Kenny's adage - "If it ain't broke.............." .
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
I don't think it is a daft rule. The competition isn't judging a session, or some sort of freestyle playing or whatever. Ye play the tune, and that's that. Ye have to keep it straight, just like ye have to drive 'properly' for the 20mins of your driving test to keep the tester happy. Simple as!
Here - take a look at: http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1047017
(go to 5m25sec and play from there to see the competition)
You can see/hear it sounds lovely - it's a specific competition with rules set up...sure ye have to have rules
Plenty of time for accompaniment in the Grúpaí Cheoil and sessions etc.
I don't see what the problem is
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
Bearing in mind that I don't like the idea of competitions at all, and find the whole concept unattractive. However, if you are going to have them...
I don't really agree with my sporting relative.
You have to decide what you are judging. Any musical competition will have a large subjective element to the judging but by introducing criteria with _some_ objective rational then the subjective component is lessened to a degree.
here playing in unison is the criteria. Can the guys and gals hack it?
If it were open to whatever harmony or arrangements that certain entrants wanted to try out, well now how do you compare such arrangements with _any_ degree of objectivity at all. Comparing completely different things only makes the inevitable subjective component of the judgment even more dominant.
It also makes the iunavoidable role of the judges personal tastes and predilictions more important: does the judge in place on the day like unison, or harmony, prefer mad jazz fusion arrangements to straight & simple, or vice versa? There would be no way for contestants to know this on advance. whereas currently they do: the judge likes unison playing, and dislikes guitar or zouk playing countermelody etc. So that's reasonably clear. No surprise on the day unless you've not checked up before hand. (This of course doesn't apply to the unfortunate situation outlined by jlocky about the talent contest).
Everyone complains about not being able to read the judges mind in advance. At least if the entrants know they are expected to play in unison then everyone can try and hit that part of the criteria.
There are plenty of really stupid rules that could be dug up. But I don't think this is one of them. Or I wouldn't think that if I didn't think the whole competition idea was fundamentaly stupid
OTOH you can always just enter on the day for a laugh without rehersing. The only time I went in for a duet comp, this is waht I did with my mate Paddy. Decided to go for it on the day. Hadn't played together for months. Discussing what tunes to play as we sat in front of the judges. Finding out live that the hornpipe we figured we both knew turned out to have two remarkable different alternative B sections. Me realising in the B part of the first tune that I'd leaned the E-string tuning peg of my banjo againt my chair. (The only saving grace was that I was so far out of tune it was inconceivable that the judges could possible think that I thought I was in tune)...
We didn't win. I can laugh about it now. but at the time, finishing that first tune and thinking: oh feck we've got to think up another three to play...
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
oh yeah. On being placed third with no other entrants.
I think usually 1st and 2nd place qualify for the next layer of competition. At the judges discresion I think they can qualify a third placed conestant if the standard is though high enough. Similarly the judge is allowed to withhold qualification if s/he doesn't think the standard is good enough. THis latter situation might be waht happened when the sole entrant was declared 3rd. That seems rather harsh if youngsters are involved, but perhpas it is to prevent the medals that are awarded for 1st and 2nd place from being cheapened if they are "earned" solely by default.
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
What they mean is if you are Jackie Daly and \seamus Creagh in the duo section, and Seamus plays wonderful harmonies around Jackie's melody, you will be placed last with "nil points".
That happened the last time I went to see a fleadh competition.
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
Isn't this a competition organised by competition organisers who decide the rules of the competition? If you don't like the competition rules then why compete with the rules of the competition? If you don't like competitions at all then why clamour and compete to complain about the competition? Why not contrive and conjoin to compose your own competition?
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
If you don't have rules in an organisation, what's the point of having one? And of course people are always judged on musical performance, as people are judged on a day to day level on, for example, their dress, demeanour, atttitude, academic ability, level of work output and so on, particularly as the act of performing music in public is a two way-thing -- they have to listen to YOU! --- it isn't always the way...
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
I'm not complaining about the requirement for rules in a competition. Indeed, rules are are prerequisite. I'm merely pointing out that this particular rule is, by its very nature, immeasurable because it attempts to determine the indefinable.
I suspect that what they really mean is: Players will be judged on the quality of their unison playing.
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
I think llig has it.
Sporting: "artistic merit" is _entirely _subjective. How do you define that?
Of course "Artistic merit" that still plays a big part in the how a judge will make up your mind (assuming you don't get one of the ones that wants a particular name/family county to win/lose), but there must also be some more objective criteria to help form a conclusion.
If people know they are being judged on unison playing and then do something different, then fair play to them but they're not going to win. Same way you won't win by turning up and playing 4 different types of eastern european tunes rather than the categories that the competition asks for. (Although that leads on to more than one other issue which I find more contentious than the one currently under discussion e.g. (1) why certain types of tune common in the irish repertiore are not considered suitable; (2) frankly you won't win if you play slide, polka, set dance & fling as the judging will be biased against e.g. Sliabh Luachra tunes/style in favour of jigs and reels)
If two top scottish players turned up and played a cello/fiddle arrangement of strathspeys & well known scottish tunes they won't win either. Even if they might appear to be musically a notch above everyone else.
Nor would a similarly talented duo playing polish, venezualan or martian music (to stretch my point to the ridiculous, a newsgroup tradition of long standing )
You can't win a foxtrot competition by turning up and jiving (however you spell it).
Of course if you want to make a point by turning up and playing a memorable duet set that doesn't fit with the criteria that the competition is looking then fair play to you. Jackie & Seamus played like this, maybe they didn't know that that wasn't what the judges were looking for, maybe they did. Doesn't really matter. Everyone kiows that these two fine musicians didn't win. Years later it still gets brought up conversations and on-line discussions.
So tell me, who won the trio competition the year that Jackie & Seamus lost the duet? No cheating now at the back, don't anyone be googling. It seems to me that Jackie & Seamus won alright in the long term, much more so than the folk that went home with the medals. Maybe they lost the CCE competition, but really that'll only bother you if you take the competitions seriously in which case you should try and meet the criteria that you will be judged on.
Any competition will have rules and expectations which entrants are expected to follow and try to meet.
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
I would agree with your last message sporting.
But then you could say the same thing about playing in a band that works out arrangements and puts on performances.
That is one reason why i'm not a big fan of the competitions. Although I dislike the waste of time spent on getting the performance right more than the actual performance itself.
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
There can still be lots of spontaneity playing in a band. It depends on the band. I'm not so keen on the ones where this is less spontaneity.
I'm reminded of that splendid record A Tribute to Joe Cooley with Paul Brock and Frankie Gavin. It's all over the place as far as unison goes. Those guys would never win.
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
More competition oddities or biases some of which make more sense than others:
Button accordeon in practice means bc played in a particular style. You have no real chance to win playing c#d or similar. For me that is a much less justifiable bias than expecting duetists to play in unison. And is never oppenly stated.
One type of mouth organ competes in its own competition the other features in miscellaneous. Maybe a moothie player could explain if this makes sense to them (as the similar banjo situation does to me)
Don't enter banjo playing the 5-string. I'm not sure if it is allowed, but you won't be placed. Pop along to miscell instead. Actually this does make sense to me, 5-string is really nothing like tenor in terms of playing style.
Low whistle competes in the same competition as "whistle". Spot on correct for me, otherwise you end up with categories for C, Bb, Eb etc etc whistles. Anyway there is already a "Big Whistle" competition, that's the room the flooties are in.
But why do fife, viola and mandola count as miscellaneous rather than as flute, fiddle & mandolin?
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
Because they're different instruments ? How many solo recordings do you know of by traditional Irish musicians playing fife, viola and mandola ? How often do you see a fife, or viola in a session? Mandolas, I suppose so, occasionally, but usually accompanying.
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
Hi Kenny,
I'm just raising these as questions which have occured to me , I don't have a strong opinion either way. Although I don't think low whistle should be apart from whistle, either in their own class or under miscell.
I'm comparing the situation within the other musical families to that of the whistle clan. Is the difference between fife and flute really much more pronounced than that between low whistle and whistle? I don't know, maybe it is. (I mean when playing trad dance music, obviously historically fife has been used mainly for different music than has flute).
I've played mandola or zouk in misc competitions in the past as a melody instrument (I'm a non-starter at accomp) and have seen plenty of other folk do the same. I think the style of play even when playing melody is different from on mandolin, at least I tend to play the bigger cousins differently from the baby (none of them particularly well though). I think they are different enough to warrent not being placed in the mandolin competition, but not important enough for their own class, misc is fine. But maybe I'm biased.
For what it is worth, there is a mandola (octave mandolin) every week in our session playing tunes as well as accomp. Only seen a fife in a session at a fleadh where the owner was in the misc competition, didn't know the person concerned but assumed they primarily played flute. Fife seemed to me at the time like a bit of a cheat when it came to misc. Maybe a flute or fife player could put me straight.
"I bet if you lived near afife band,you would see them out often enough."
Just for the record, I live in Fife country {Co Antrim} & we often have 2 or 3 Fifes being played in one of our sessions up here, but although the musicians who play them, have perhaps taken one step back towards normality by joining our session & we have done likewise by encouraging them to join us, it'll be a long, long time if ever, before you would be likely to see these guys going anywhere near a Comhaltas competition.
Being a fan of flat Pipes etc I'd love to see a Viola in our session. I actually play a Baritone Concertina in our Ballad Session, but of course I'd be daft to try & compete with that big ponderous beastie in a competition against nimble Treble Jeffries.
However, I'd still love to have a Session with a Viola player, some day!
{ I wonder Llig, did you ever play your Viola with Norman Chalmers & his Baritone Concertina? }
Chris, I can't ever imagine a Fife trying to compete with a Flute when it comes to playing a Slow Air.
Marches & Hornpipes yes, Jigs OK, but I'm not sure even Reels sound all that great on a Fife, so I do think a Fife would struggle seriously, competing against a Flute. So I think the Misc comp is the place for a Fife ...... until they get their own Comp of course!
fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
This one didn't really register at the time, but I've been thinking about it.
I know that "music competition" is the classic oxymoron and all that, but in the light of ongoing discussions of what constitutes "tune" and what constitutes "decoration/articulation/variation/version" etc., I'm left wondering how "both players must play the tune at all times" can be judged. Have the fleadh people really defined what "tune" is? I think they're bleedin' idiots if they think they have.
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
rule no. 18
'' In competitions for duets and trios, all members must at all times play the melody of the tune''
That's all they say so completely vague as to what happens if players differ with decoration/articulation/variation etc. Probably left to the individual judges interpretation.
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by cathycook
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
I'm not a supporter of competitions either but might they not mean that they don't want one of the musicians to play accompaniment?
I'd imagine that they wish the entrants to "play in unison" as opposed to adding a "second part", harmonies, guitar backing etc. As you know, this sort of thing isn't really part of the tradition and is still much less common in Irish music whereas many Scottish players are obsessed with such things.
Having said that, I don't disagree with your comments above. As you say, it is also nigh impossible to define what "the tune" is.... and who is right or wrong.
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by Back for a while
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
Definitely no guitar just playing backing chords, I know some lads who were disqualified for that, but what if one instrument is playing chords as well as the melody, accordion basses for instance?
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by cathycook
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
"at all times play the melody of the tune"
Isn't that tautology? Or are they being clever and ruling out bodhrans? They've just gone up in my estimations.
So ... you can play your regulators on your pipes, but only if you continue to play the tune of your chanter. And you'd be allowed to play some double stops on the fiddle but you've got to keep playing the tune also. Would you be allowed bass pedals? Maybe not, 'cause you have to plug 'em in. What about singing or whistling? You could sing a harmony while you played the tune. That could sound good, especially if you both sang. You coulkd just sing long notes and make chords between you.
But does it say anywhere that you have to play the same bits of the tune at the same time? Could you play phrases of the tune that harmonise with other bits of the tune? You'd still be playing the tune at all times. Or you could make a rif out of a phrase and keep it going all the way. Does it say anywhere that both players must play all of the tune at all times? Or what about one of you playing the tune at exactly half the speed of the other? I've tried that with some tunes, it works great. And there's the one where you play the jig version of a reel over the top of the reel. That sounds good too. Is a jig version of a reel classed as the same tune?
Or maybe they are being deliberately obtuse and they are making a feature out of the fact that all the tunes sound the same. So when they refer to "The Tune" they mean any old tune, because there is only one?
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
How does this effect the Donegal tradition of 'reversing' where the tune is played in concert by one fiddle and in a lower octave by the second simultaneously? Its the same tune but might be too 'jazzy' for comhaltas adjudicators.
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by iwerzon
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
Surely an octave apart whould be allowed. But what about playing the same tune simultaneously in different keys? Johnny Cunningham did that on a record once, it sounded fab. He played a tune in Amin, Emin, Bmin and F#min all at the same time. sounded fab, really dense.
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
You're right llig, they don't actually specify playing the same bits of the tune at the same time, all they say is what I've quoted above. I'd be very interested to see the reaction from the judge if someone tried out some of your suggestions, because logically, they fit the rules, although I suspect that they would try and argue that they really mean playing the exact same version of the melody in unison.
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by cathycook
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
llig, in another discussion you touched on the pipe band competitions and the requirement of uniformity in the execution of ornamentation. Might this be what the fleadh people mean?
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by Gran Cassa
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
Ah, I think we've finally found out who has the true knowledge of the ultimate, Platonic solid form of the tunes.
Fleadh judges!
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
Well that would rule out different instruments, as it's impossible to get complete unison otherwise
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
Is there an appeals process if you do get disqualified? That would be fun.
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
So they can just disqualify you for any old reason and they don't even have to justify it? And if you go, "hang on a minute, what rule did I break?" they just brand you a troublemaker and make sure their mates know who you are?
I'd like to meet the person who holds the record for the most marks on their card
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
They seem to have managed without it being a problem for over 50 years.
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by Kenny
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
I'd bet that a good lawyer could argue that "at all times must play the melody" only means don't play variations or accompaniment. To my ear, "at all times" means whenever playing, not at every possible moment.
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
Appeal within 7 days.
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by Banjo Bobb
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
Seriously, my point is: How do they define what's variation or version and what's tune and what's articulation/decoration? And They must have criteria if they made a rules. And how do they define accompaniment?
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
You're tripping over your plurals in indignation Michael!
You're totally right about the oxymoron in your OP. But the judges are going to award points based on what? Precise definition of terms is irrelevant, but it's good to have the principle stated as it applies to this wonderful primarily monophonic melodic tradition. Beyond that, it's up to the judges.
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by TomB-R
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
tee he
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
Having took part in a trio competition in the dim and distant past I recall that whatever you do it has to be the same thing - ie there's no problem using a variation providing everyone in the trio does the same one at the same time. I don't think the ban on harmonies has anything to do with adjudicator limitations, as has been stated, but more to do with tradition where the emphasis has always been on melody (no piper has ever lost marks for use of regulators or drones).
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by Bannerman
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
I have taken that rule to basically mean no accompaniment. It has never occured to me that it might mean playing in unison with no or limited harmony. On the other hand as I don't enter these competitions I have not had cause to think about it too much.
To be honest, and speaking as a guitarist, if there is a duet's competition to have it made up of, for example a fiddler and some guitar accompaniment is too much like cheating. The whole point is that it is 2 melody players playing together. I am sure it will be much the same with the trios.
A melody player and an accompanist would not have as difficult a task of playing together as a fiddler and flautist for example.
I am not saying that to be a good accompanist is easier than being a good melody player. I don't necessarily think it is but the whole point of the competition is to see how well the two melody instruments are made to fit together - surely!
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
"it is time Comhaltas had a serious look at its daft rules" - a bit of a loaded statement Sporting!
The rules are in fact looked at every three years at Annual Congress where any member can suggest whatever changes they wish, but they have to convince all of the other delegates present to get these implimented. Personally I don't see much wrong with things as they are (those who want a degree of innovation can always go for the Grúpaí Cheoil competitions which allow a bit of latitude in areas such as accompaniment and harmony) as after all we are talking about things traditional.
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by Bannerman
Who knew you could play a tune on one of those?
Bodhrán competition is divided into four age categories: under 12, 12 to 15, 15 to 18, and over 18 (senior). Each competitor must play a tune of his own choice from four of these categories: Air (slow or lively), Jig (double, single, slip), Slide, Reel, Polka, Hornpipe, March, Set Dance. The competitor is accompanied by a single musician, who may be chosen by the competitor. "
http://www.ceolas.org/instruments/bodhran/fleadh.shtml
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by Random_notes
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
"If it ain't broke.............."
By the way, "Bannerman", isn't there a competition category for "accompaniment" these days ? [ Excluding the bodhran, of course ].
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by Kenny
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
It means play in unison.
Variations and ornamentation will be expected, but both players have to play them in unison.
I doubt there would be a problem with playing in octaves.
The whole thing means practicing with your partner(s) endlessly, working on a tight performance.
I'm a CCE member of some years, but personally I think this is a complete waste of time that could be much better spent having fun just playing tunes.
A performance like this has by default all the spontaneity taken out of it and just doesn't appel to me. At least in the solo competitions you can just turn up and play without working out the placement of each roll or triplet etc in advance. Although certainly anyone who takes the competition seriously will have done some of this (again, I'd frankly rather spend the time doing something else).
Just my 2c.
But for sure, the idea of the competition is that both players play the same melody line and ornamentation (subject to instrument) at the same time. Variations therefore have to be worked out in advance.
- chris
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vpqVb3q2wA
0.34 - FAIL!
0.55 - FAIL!
1.17 - OH THE HORROR....
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by Hugo Chavez
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
If you want to play guitar, bouzouki, piano, harp etc in a duo or trio, then play the tune. Not accomp. Not countermelody.
If you want to play accomp on any of the above, then you want the room next door mate: that's where the're holding the accomp competition. The clue is in the name, see.
If you want to play the bodhran, then you don't want either of those rooms, you want the room at the end of the corridor where the bodhran competition is being held.
That is how CCE sees it anyway.
- chris
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
This reminds me of two young lads who arrived at the Co. Antrim Fleadh competition venue, a few years back, all set for their solo competitions.
Well, they quickly noticed that nobody had entered for the duets, so, knowing that the first two placed, would automatically go through to the regional {Ulster} finals, they decided to throw a few tunes together, thinking they would sail through to the Ulsters.
However, they clearly had no notion of what duet playing was all about as they just rattled each of their tunes out, as if they were at a session.
Yes, you've guessed it .................... & boy were their faces a picture when the judge finally announced that he had placed them ........... THIRD!
Can you imagine the shame of the only duet .... being placed third?
I bet they were well prepared, the next year!
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
"If you want to play guitar, bouzouki, piano, harp etc in a duo or trio, then play the tune. Not accomp. Not countermelody.
If you want to play accomp on any of the above, then you want the room next door mate: that's where the're holding the accomp competition. The clue is in the name, see.
If you want to play the bodhran, then you don't want either of those rooms, you want the room at the end of the corridor where the bodhran competition is being held."
Personally I dont see a problem with this. It is a competition after all. If you don't like it don't enter. Easy.
I also don't have a problem with those 2 guys in Ptarmigan's story being ranked 3rd. People competing in a quiet Fleadh shouldn't find themselves at an advantage over those who are at busier ones. It wouldn't be fair. I am sure the duo who came 3rd in the Fleadh up the road would be annoyed to find that they didn't get through and this pair did if they were considerably better than them.
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
Maybe Comhaltas should change some rules around a bit so we can actually ENJOY playing music in these comps!!!
In my opinion these competitions are a farce. The more you enjoy yourself the worse you do.
My band were in a "traditional talent competition" a few weeks ago. We played a set of tunes really well, with harmonies, chords and variations, since it wasn't a Comhaltas competition. We came joint 2nd and were asked to return for the final. We walked in on the day of the final with a whole new set made out and some really nice ornamentation between the instruments, only to find 3 Comhaltas judges sitting there!
Long story short, we came 3rd and everyone in the room gasped with shock (literally! :L)
We questioned the judges afterwards and they told us they gave us third because it is "Not what they are used to judging"
Anyone else think this was a bit unfair, since is was not specified anywhere not to use chords and counter-melodies????
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by jlocky
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
Feh, it's all a bit silly. Make yourself happy, make listeners happy if you like, success, win. Easy as pie.
I mean, the reason I'm a musician in the first place is because I'm a non-competitive nerd, not a steroid-addled sport adrenaline junkie!
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
OK Sporting, no offence taken. Anyone who knows me would know that competition is not something I'd profess to know much about and as I said I only entered for the craic some thirty or so years ago. However, perhaps because of this I'd be even less likely to dismiss any rule as "daft" particularly when no onene has seen fit to challenge it for the last fifty years or more. It never bothered the likes of Gus Tierney and Jerry Lynch or Paddy Murphy and Peter O'Loughlin who were very worthy winners in these competitions so I also go along with Kenny's adage - "If it ain't broke.............." .
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by Bannerman
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
Where you have judges, be prepared for surprises.
Especially if they seem to be human beings - they're the tough ones!
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by RockyRoader
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
I don't think it is a daft rule. The competition isn't judging a session, or some sort of freestyle playing or whatever. Ye play the tune, and that's that. Ye have to keep it straight, just like ye have to drive 'properly' for the 20mins of your driving test to keep the tester happy. Simple as!
Here - take a look at:
http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1047017
(go to 5m25sec and play from there to see the competition)
You can see/hear it sounds lovely - it's a specific competition with rules set up...sure ye have to have rules
Plenty of time for accompaniment in the Grúpaí Cheoil and sessions etc.
I don't see what the problem is
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by andy69
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
Bearing in mind that I don't like the idea of competitions at all, and find the whole concept unattractive. However, if you are going to have them...
I don't really agree with my sporting relative.
You have to decide what you are judging. Any musical competition will have a large subjective element to the judging but by introducing criteria with _some_ objective rational then the subjective component is lessened to a degree.
here playing in unison is the criteria. Can the guys and gals hack it?
If it were open to whatever harmony or arrangements that certain entrants wanted to try out, well now how do you compare such arrangements with _any_ degree of objectivity at all. Comparing completely different things only makes the inevitable subjective component of the judgment even more dominant.
It also makes the iunavoidable role of the judges personal tastes and predilictions more important: does the judge in place on the day like unison, or harmony, prefer mad jazz fusion arrangements to straight & simple, or vice versa? There would be no way for contestants to know this on advance. whereas currently they do: the judge likes unison playing, and dislikes guitar or zouk playing countermelody etc. So that's reasonably clear. No surprise on the day unless you've not checked up before hand. (This of course doesn't apply to the unfortunate situation outlined by jlocky about the talent contest).
Everyone complains about not being able to read the judges mind in advance. At least if the entrants know they are expected to play in unison then everyone can try and hit that part of the criteria.
There are plenty of really stupid rules that could be dug up. But I don't think this is one of them. Or I wouldn't think that if I didn't think the whole competition idea was fundamentaly stupid
OTOH you can always just enter on the day for a laugh without rehersing. The only time I went in for a duet comp, this is waht I did with my mate Paddy. Decided to go for it on the day. Hadn't played together for months. Discussing what tunes to play as we sat in front of the judges. Finding out live that the hornpipe we figured we both knew turned out to have two remarkable different alternative B sections. Me realising in the B part of the first tune that I'd leaned the E-string tuning peg of my banjo againt my chair. (The only saving grace was that I was so far out of tune it was inconceivable that the judges could possible think that I thought I was in tune)...
We didn't win. I can laugh about it now. but at the time, finishing that first tune and thinking: oh feck we've got to think up another three to play...
- chris
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
oh yeah. On being placed third with no other entrants.
I think usually 1st and 2nd place qualify for the next layer of competition. At the judges discresion I think they can qualify a third placed conestant if the standard is though high enough. Similarly the judge is allowed to withhold qualification if s/he doesn't think the standard is good enough. THis latter situation might be waht happened when the sole entrant was declared 3rd. That seems rather harsh if youngsters are involved, but perhpas it is to prevent the medals that are awarded for 1st and 2nd place from being cheapened if they are "earned" solely by default.
- chris
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
What they mean is if you are Jackie Daly and \seamus Creagh in the duo section, and Seamus plays wonderful harmonies around Jackie's melody, you will be placed last with "nil points".
That happened the last time I went to see a fleadh competition.
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by bodhran bliss
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
Isn't this a competition organised by competition organisers who decide the rules of the competition? If you don't like the competition rules then why compete with the rules of the competition? If you don't like competitions at all then why clamour and compete to complain about the competition? Why not contrive and conjoin to compose your own competition?
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by Joel McDermott
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
If you don't have rules in an organisation, what's the point of having one? And of course people are always judged on musical performance, as people are judged on a day to day level on, for example, their dress, demeanour, atttitude, academic ability, level of work output and so on, particularly as the act of performing music in public is a two way-thing -- they have to listen to YOU! --- it isn't always the way...
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by Nick Splease
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
Can't help taking that out of context: "What is the point of having one?"
Yes, indeed, what is the point?
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
So you would lose?
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by Joel McDermott
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
I'm not complaining about the requirement for rules in a competition. Indeed, rules are are prerequisite. I'm merely pointing out that this particular rule is, by its very nature, immeasurable because it attempts to determine the indefinable.
I suspect that what they really mean is: Players will be judged on the quality of their unison playing.
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
I think llig has it.
Sporting: "artistic merit" is _entirely _subjective. How do you define that?
Of course "Artistic merit" that still plays a big part in the how a judge will make up your mind (assuming you don't get one of the ones that wants a particular name/family county to win/lose), but there must also be some more objective criteria to help form a conclusion.
If people know they are being judged on unison playing and then do something different, then fair play to them but they're not going to win. Same way you won't win by turning up and playing 4 different types of eastern european tunes rather than the categories that the competition asks for. (Although that leads on to more than one other issue which I find more contentious than the one currently under discussion e.g. (1) why certain types of tune common in the irish repertiore are not considered suitable; (2) frankly you won't win if you play slide, polka, set dance & fling as the judging will be biased against e.g. Sliabh Luachra tunes/style in favour of jigs and reels)
If two top scottish players turned up and played a cello/fiddle arrangement of strathspeys & well known scottish tunes they won't win either. Even if they might appear to be musically a notch above everyone else.
Nor would a similarly talented duo playing polish, venezualan or martian music (to stretch my point to the ridiculous, a newsgroup tradition of long standing
)
You can't win a foxtrot competition by turning up and jiving (however you spell it).
Of course if you want to make a point by turning up and playing a memorable duet set that doesn't fit with the criteria that the competition is looking then fair play to you. Jackie & Seamus played like this, maybe they didn't know that that wasn't what the judges were looking for, maybe they did. Doesn't really matter. Everyone kiows that these two fine musicians didn't win. Years later it still gets brought up conversations and on-line discussions.
So tell me, who won the trio competition the year that Jackie & Seamus lost the duet? No cheating now at the back, don't anyone be googling. It seems to me that Jackie & Seamus won alright in the long term, much more so than the folk that went home with the medals. Maybe they lost the CCE competition, but really that'll only bother you if you take the competitions seriously in which case you should try and meet the criteria that you will be judged on.
Any competition will have rules and expectations which entrants are expected to follow and try to meet.
- chris
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
just to be clear, my aside about contentious issues stopped after the sliabh luachra comment.
My comment about scottish, polish etc players is not part of that same point.
- chris
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
I would think that's it precisely, llig.
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by Kenny
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
CCE not encouraging spontaneity? I am shocked, shocked!!!!!!
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
I would agree with your last message sporting.
But then you could say the same thing about playing in a band that works out arrangements and puts on performances.
That is one reason why i'm not a big fan of the competitions. Although I dislike the waste of time spent on getting the performance right more than the actual performance itself.
- chris
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
There can still be lots of spontaneity playing in a band. It depends on the band. I'm not so keen on the ones where this is less spontaneity.
I'm reminded of that splendid record A Tribute to Joe Cooley with Paul Brock and Frankie Gavin. It's all over the place as far as unison goes. Those guys would never win.
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
More competition oddities or biases some of which make more sense than others:
Button accordeon in practice means bc played in a particular style. You have no real chance to win playing c#d or similar. For me that is a much less justifiable bias than expecting duetists to play in unison. And is never oppenly stated.
One type of mouth organ competes in its own competition the other features in miscellaneous. Maybe a moothie player could explain if this makes sense to them (as the similar banjo situation does to me)
Don't enter banjo playing the 5-string. I'm not sure if it is allowed, but you won't be placed. Pop along to miscell instead. Actually this does make sense to me, 5-string is really nothing like tenor in terms of playing style.
Low whistle competes in the same competition as "whistle". Spot on correct for me, otherwise you end up with categories for C, Bb, Eb etc etc whistles. Anyway there is already a "Big Whistle" competition, that's the room the flooties are in.
But why do fife, viola and mandola count as miscellaneous rather than as flute, fiddle & mandolin?
- chris
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
Because they're different instruments ? How many solo recordings do you know of by traditional Irish musicians playing fife, viola and mandola ? How often do you see a fife, or viola in a session? Mandolas, I suppose so, occasionally, but usually accompanying.
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by Kenny
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
What about an F flute? (A 3/4 flute?)
It's not quite a flute, not quite a fife...
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by Nico
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
I play tunes on my viola down the pub often. It's particularly good when there's two or three other excellent fiddle players.
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
Hi Kenny,
I'm just raising these as questions which have occured to me , I don't have a strong opinion either way. Although I don't think low whistle should be apart from whistle, either in their own class or under miscell.
I'm comparing the situation within the other musical families to that of the whistle clan. Is the difference between fife and flute really much more pronounced than that between low whistle and whistle? I don't know, maybe it is. (I mean when playing trad dance music, obviously historically fife has been used mainly for different music than has flute).
I've played mandola or zouk in misc competitions in the past as a melody instrument (I'm a non-starter at accomp) and have seen plenty of other folk do the same. I think the style of play even when playing melody is different from on mandolin, at least I tend to play the bigger cousins differently from the baby (none of them particularly well though). I think they are different enough to warrent not being placed in the mandolin competition, but not important enough for their own class, misc is fine. But maybe I'm biased.
For what it is worth, there is a mandola (octave mandolin) every week in our session playing tunes as well as accomp. Only seen a fife in a session at a fleadh where the owner was in the misc competition, didn't know the person concerned but assumed they primarily played flute. Fife seemed to me at the time like a bit of a cheat when it came to misc. Maybe a flute or fife player could put me straight.
cheers - chris
# Posted on May 8th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
Could someone please translate Dick Miles' last message into English?
# Posted on May 9th 2009 by Floss the Tethers
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
What message?
# Posted on May 10th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: fleadh rules are that both players must play the tune at all times
Patrick wrote:
"How many solo recordings do you know of by traditional Irish musicians playing fife, viola and mandola?"
Not many, but I do have this old LP in my collection.
OK John is playing a Piccolo not a Fife.
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/1315
The Viola has been recorded in the past by the like of Frankie Gavin:
http://celticgrooves.homestead.com/CG_Gavin_Frankie_Fierce.html
& Seamus McGuire:
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/2418
http://www.shopping.com/xPO-The_Wishing_Tree_Seamus_McGuire
"I bet if you lived near afife band,you would see them out often enough."
Just for the record, I live in Fife country {Co Antrim} & we often have 2 or 3 Fifes being played in one of our sessions up here, but although the musicians who play them, have perhaps taken one step back towards normality by joining our session & we have done likewise by encouraging them to join us, it'll be a long, long time if ever, before you would be likely to see these guys going anywhere near a Comhaltas competition.
Being a fan of flat Pipes etc I'd love to see a Viola in our session. I actually play a Baritone Concertina in our Ballad Session, but of course I'd be daft to try & compete with that big ponderous beastie in a competition against nimble Treble Jeffries.
However, I'd still love to have a Session with a Viola player, some day!
{ I wonder Llig, did you ever play your Viola with Norman Chalmers & his Baritone Concertina? }
Chris, I can't ever imagine a Fife trying to compete with a Flute when it comes to playing a Slow Air.
Marches & Hornpipes yes, Jigs OK, but I'm not sure even Reels sound all that great on a Fife, so I do think a Fife would struggle seriously, competing against a Flute. So I think the Misc comp is the place for a Fife ...... until they get their own Comp of course!
# Posted on May 10th 2009 by Ptarmigan