Good sirs... any chance you would have opinions on the bow hold?
I hold my with my thumb between the stick and the hairs, right down at the base, with my other fingers lightly curled around it. The fleshy part of the thumb is flat against the stick. I have seen the classical method of holding the bow and the thumb is held almost sideways. I have tried it but it is awkward and hurts.
If you look at "classical" violinists carefully, there is variation in the angle of the thumb from sideways to how you hold it. It has to do with the proportion of the thumb and finger lengths and the length and width of the palm which works better. There's not "one" bowhold, in fact there are two major schools (at least!) on how to hold the bow in the classical world. If you're relaxed, and you can do what you want, it's right.
I agree with reenactor. I came from doing time in the classical schools and in the end, there are only so many ways to hold a bow that will work for you and/or feel comfortable. As long as you are not limiting the range of bow stroke you can make and the angle isn't distorting or hindering the tone then you're golden. The more you have to tighten your fingers to control the bow the less relaxed your wrist will be also. A supple wrist is key so try not to get into holds that hamper it.
Mr. Van Steenwyk, that's most amusing sir. Quite right. Well played. I prefer the Kung Fu grip myself.
Miss Juliet, I played classical as a child and I held it with the full on official sanctioned grip, pinky on the screw. Now, over time playing this music, I've choked up more and more and I've ended up with my pinky on the pad. I spend the majority of my time using the bow nearer the end than the frog. I never did it consciously, just happened over time.
Yes, if you look at a few different Trad fiddlers on utube (ie
proper good ones) you see quite a variety of holds. Mind you, you can almost never see what they're doing with their thumbs
though.
When Martin Hayes broke the thumb on his right hand he developed a bow hold that didn't use it. if you put the 2 middle fingers in between stick and hair and 1st and 4th on top, with a bit of practice its quite possible to play.
Of course there are common conventions we all use: we all hold the bow at the frog and not at the tip.
It's been a few months since I've seen Martin play, but I'm quite certain that he puts his thumb on the bow now. You're not suggesting Miss Juliet adopts as a permanent feature a temporary fix for a gigging musician are you?
Yes Llig I agree but thats not what I meant! I meant If you turn the bow round entirely .
I do see lots of floating little fingers, seems to be unessential for trad to keep it down. Though I generally keep my pinkie gently curved on the bow.
I do prefer more bow so I stay as close to the frog as I can, otherwise I end up clipping the strings with the tip!
I think I use all of 6" of the bow for this music. I guess I have a lot of room I could put my hand higher, by your argument I don't find my wrist flopping around a bunch, perhaps I'm doing it wrong. Not much need for power either...
I play near the tip, so choking up away from the frog seems to help maintain control from the middle to the tip. I end up looking like Mairead in Ramiro’s video. Well, minus the blonde hair and angelic face, obviously.
Didn’t someone once go to a workshop with James Kelly and he gave them an exercise to attempt to play a whole tune using only one inch of bow? The Meehan quote from calico's teacher reminded me of that.
Now I think about it my teacher used the "inch of bow" idea to encourage us to be more economic with bow movement, the ultimate goal being to enable us to speed up our tune playing.
Yes! Exactly what it does, it encourages control because you can control smaller bow movements with much more ease than with huge, sweeping strokes, and it encourages speed via economy of movement.
And, SWFL, it has the added benefit of reducing my session "footprint" and minimizing the likelihood of poking people in the eye and knocking their pints over!!
> Ive also seen the thumb holding the frog not the stick!
That's how I play. After years of rosin irritating the skin just above the nailbed of my thumb I got this bow hold off of Siobhan Peoples at Wille Week. Siobhan holds her thumb against the flat underside of the frog with the rest of the fingers doing the usual stuff up above. The thing about this hold that has been great for me is that I never think about my hold anymore, the bow just sits in my hand effortlessly and my hand never gets tired.
I expected a few players to sneer at it but I've been told "that's an established bow hold".
Everyone is different, but I would teach a new learner to try it near the frog first, typical 'classical' style. I've just done whatever has happened naturally to my technique over time, just gone with the flow. Your results may vary!
The bow hold does make a lot of difference in the playing. Ask any fiddle player. That doesn't mean there is only one right way to bow. Everyone's hand is shaped differently.
That being said, there are several things that make bowing easier. A loose wrist and a hold right at the frog gives you the ability to use the whole bow with good tone. Whether or not you make use of that ability is up to the player.
You may notice that most (not all) of the great players follow those rules when approaching bowing. A notable exception is Mairead Ni Mhaonaigh. I have heard her making a point, when teaching, to tell the students not to copy her bow hold. She has started out playing that way and never broke the habit. I have also heard her refer to her nephew, Ciaran's bow hold as an example of how it ought to be done.
It is possible to bow with good tone without a loose wrist or a hold at the frog. It's just a lot easier to do so with these things. So, if you're just learning, why not make things easier in the long run?
Thank you all, very very much! I'll check out all those links soon.
And funny that you should mention Mairead's teaching, fiddleK... I often do the same thing... I tell my students to hold the bow with the thumb under the frog, not between the stick and the hair. Of course, that is because they need to learn to use the whole stick early on in their playing.
What a lovely selection of clips, good stuff drone.
What did all of those fiddlers have in common?
Regardless of where on the bow they held, they all were relaxed, so relaxed in fact that they all seemed to be holding the bow between their thumb and just the index and middle fingers.
Also, none of them needed to use the whole bow from tip to frog. All of them, especially Tommy, kept the bow near the middle-to-tip. In the case of Martin Hayes, forget one inch, I believe he uses 1 centimeter of the bow.
The only 'power stroker' in the above bunch was Cote, and his vigorous bowing style suits the Scottish-tinged Cape Breton music he is playing quite well. Despite his animation and vigor you can see him using the ol' thumb & two fingers thing.
Not that anyone should aim for holding onto their bow with just the thumb, index and middle fingers. I believe it's a subconscious by-product of being in the zone and playing relaxed.
Every time I've seen Martin Hayes I've been impressed by how much of the bow he uses. He needs it for the long rolls and slurs, and then also for the slidey notes that he likes to emphasize.
And was it Kevin Burke that said something like you paid for the whole bow, so you might as well use all of it?
I'm really puzzled about this whole notion of only needing a small length of bow, especially for Irish music, which has so many slurs, and accents in the middle of the bow from pulsing the index finger (instead of just on the beginning of the bowstroke, as in in other styles). I would think that a bow hold that gives you as much control over as much of the bow as possible would be a good thing.
"diddley music includes the playing of slow airs."
I always kind of thought that diddley tunes kind of went diddley. Slow airs don't go diddley.
I changed my bow hold from a few inches away from the frog to the thumb in the frog about 20 years ago. It made a big difference to my slow air playing (once I got used to it), but it made no real difference to my diddley playing.
hmm interesting - I'm going to try this later. So I should reverse the bow and hold its tip? maybe holding it a third up toward the frog will help this balance issue...
Some slow airs most certainly go diddly. but in a slow kind of diddley way. In fact if your slow airs dont diddle perhaps you aint playing them right!
Airport, You could always play with the fiddle in your right hand and bow in your left, choked up on the tip. . but its probably not a good idea unless you are a lefty.
Kennedy, I was talking about Martin Hayes in that video, in particular. There are times when it doesn't look like he's moving the bow at all. Just watching him, then Peoples and then Cote you can see the contrast between small and huge amounts of bow, and the results on the sound, the style. You use as much bow as you need. The inverse of that Burke axiom is 'why use the whole bow if you only need one inch?'
SWFL, yes, I just watched them and I see what you mean (never heard of Dwayne Cote before, he's wonderful), and for those clips, you're right. I think there's a danger in saying not to use a lot of bow, though, because some people will get the idea that you should always use as little bow as possible, and that won't lead to a good outcome.
I think it's also dangerous to say that any old bow hold is fine---I've seen lots of people with really stiff bow holds, choked up way high on the bow, fourth and third fingers flying---mostly because they think that's the way fiddlers hold the bow, because they see professional fiddlers doing it. And for people who've been playing since they were three years old, whatever bow hold they have is second nature to them and they can get whatever sound they want and be perfectly relaxed. Learning it later in life presents a different set of problems, though. If you hold your bow like a cocktail glass with your pinky pointing at the ceiling all the time, you're very likely to have tension in your hand, which will roughen your sound, and possibly contribute to injury. It's also harder to get much power out of the string. This isn't to say that nobody should bow that way---of course many good fiddlers do and sound fine. But I've seen many less experienced fiddlers with unconventional bowing technique who don't get a lot of sound out of their fiddles, or they have problems with fast string crossings, or other things that maybe could improve with a different approach.
Or maybe not. I'm sure many will disagree. It's just what I've noticed.
Not "as little bow as possible," but (for this music) ***only as much bow as you need.***
I can't say I've ever seen anyone playing this music using too little bow. More common are the classical folks trying to cross to the dark side but still running from one end of the stick to the other on every note. Which is why their jigs and reels sound like poorly played Bach.
Short bow strokes are also an asset in many a snug session.
Bow hold
Bow hold
Good sirs... any chance you would have opinions on the bow hold?
I hold my with my thumb between the stick and the hairs, right down at the base, with my other fingers lightly curled around it. The fleshy part of the thumb is flat against the stick. I have seen the classical method of holding the bow and the thumb is held almost sideways. I have tried it but it is awkward and hurts.
Would my bow hold affect how I play at all?
Thank you all.
# Posted on May 5th 2009 by Miss Juliet
Re: Bow hold
you're fine.
If you look at "classical" violinists carefully, there is variation in the angle of the thumb from sideways to how you hold it. It has to do with the proportion of the thumb and finger lengths and the length and width of the palm which works better. There's not "one" bowhold, in fact there are two major schools (at least!) on how to hold the bow in the classical world. If you're relaxed, and you can do what you want, it's right.
# Posted on May 5th 2009 by reenactor
Re: Bow hold
I'm not a sir, do I qualify? Lol!
I agree with reenactor. I came from doing time in the classical schools and in the end, there are only so many ways to hold a bow that will work for you and/or feel comfortable. As long as you are not limiting the range of bow stroke you can make and the angle isn't distorting or hindering the tone then you're golden. The more you have to tighten your fingers to control the bow the less relaxed your wrist will be also. A supple wrist is key so try not to get into holds that hamper it.
# Posted on May 6th 2009 by michelleshannon
Re: Bow hold
Remember that movie "Fame?"
Remember the teacher trying to explain to Bruno Martelli how to hold the bow?
# Posted on May 6th 2009 by jwvansteenwyk
Re: Bow hold
Mr. Van Steenwyk, that's most amusing sir. Quite right. Well played. I prefer the Kung Fu grip myself.
Miss Juliet, I played classical as a child and I held it with the full on official sanctioned grip, pinky on the screw. Now, over time playing this music, I've choked up more and more and I've ended up with my pinky on the pad. I spend the majority of my time using the bow nearer the end than the frog. I never did it consciously, just happened over time.
# Posted on May 6th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Bow hold
For diddley music, it doesn't really matter how you hold it
# Posted on May 6th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Bow hold
Yes, if you look at a few different Trad fiddlers on utube (ie
proper good ones) you see quite a variety of holds. Mind you, you can almost never see what they're doing with their thumbs
though.
# Posted on May 6th 2009 by Hup
Re: Bow hold
When Martin Hayes broke the thumb on his right hand he developed a bow hold that didn't use it. if you put the 2 middle fingers in between stick and hair and 1st and 4th on top, with a bit of practice its quite possible to play.
Of course there are common conventions we all use: we all hold the bow at the frog and not at the tip.
# Posted on May 6th 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: Bow hold
I know quite a few excelent fiddle players who hold the bow a good few inches away from the frog. Makes no difference for playing the dance tunes.
# Posted on May 6th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Bow hold
Lonannas,
It's been a few months since I've seen Martin play, but I'm quite certain that he puts his thumb on the bow now. You're not suggesting Miss Juliet adopts as a permanent feature a temporary fix for a gigging musician are you?
# Posted on May 6th 2009 by reenactor
Re: Bow hold
Yes Llig I agree but thats not what I meant! I meant If you turn the bow round entirely .
I do see lots of floating little fingers, seems to be unessential for trad to keep it down. Though I generally keep my pinkie gently curved on the bow.
I do prefer more bow so I stay as close to the frog as I can, otherwise I end up clipping the strings with the tip!
# Posted on May 6th 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: Bow hold
"a good length of stick ,is of paramount importance"
Not for her, it seems:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4OAkUN-m3A
# Posted on May 6th 2009 by Ramiro
Re: Bow hold
Patrick Toms,
I think I use all of 6" of the bow for this music. I guess I have a lot of room I could put my hand higher, by your argument
I don't find my wrist flopping around a bunch, perhaps I'm doing it wrong. Not much need for power either...
# Posted on May 6th 2009 by reenactor
Re: Bow hold
My fiddle teacher always quotes Danny Meehan as saying that you can take out a tune "in an inch of bow".
# Posted on May 6th 2009 by sashiko calico
Re: Bow hold
6"?!? Way too much.
I play near the tip, so choking up away from the frog seems to help maintain control from the middle to the tip. I end up looking like Mairead in Ramiro’s video. Well, minus the blonde hair and angelic face, obviously.
Didn’t someone once go to a workshop with James Kelly and he gave them an exercise to attempt to play a whole tune using only one inch of bow? The Meehan quote from calico's teacher reminded me of that.
# Posted on May 6th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Bow hold
Now I think about it my teacher used the "inch of bow" idea to encourage us to be more economic with bow movement, the ultimate goal being to enable us to speed up our tune playing.
# Posted on May 6th 2009 by sashiko calico
Re: Bow hold
reenactor
Thats Ionannas by the way.
No I am not, just pointing out an extreme bow hold.
Ive also seen the thumb holding the frog not the stick!
# Posted on May 6th 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: Bow hold
Yes! Exactly what it does, it encourages control because you can control smaller bow movements with much more ease than with huge, sweeping strokes, and it encourages speed via economy of movement.
# Posted on May 6th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Bow hold
And, SWFL, it has the added benefit of reducing my session "footprint" and minimizing the likelihood of poking people in the eye and knocking their pints over!!
# Posted on May 6th 2009 by sashiko calico
Re: Bow hold
lonannas, are you complaining about capitalisation? Okay, I'll make a note of it
SWFL, haha, exactly!
# Posted on May 6th 2009 by reenactor
Re: Bow hold
> Ive also seen the thumb holding the frog not the stick!
That's how I play. After years of rosin irritating the skin just above the nailbed of my thumb I got this bow hold off of Siobhan Peoples at Wille Week. Siobhan holds her thumb against the flat underside of the frog with the rest of the fingers doing the usual stuff up above. The thing about this hold that has been great for me is that I never think about my hold anymore, the bow just sits in my hand effortlessly and my hand never gets tired.
I expected a few players to sneer at it but I've been told "that's an established bow hold".
# Posted on May 6th 2009 by Jams_O'Donnell
Re: Bow hold
reenacor.
The name begins with an I, a vowel , Not an L.
Not that it has anything t do with this thread of course!
# Posted on May 6th 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: Bow hold
Everyone is different, but I would teach a new learner to try it near the frog first, typical 'classical' style. I've just done whatever has happened naturally to my technique over time, just gone with the flow. Your results may vary!
Old thread time!
fiddle bow technique:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/9114/
More bow hold yack:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/7233/
# Posted on May 6th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Bow hold
The bow hold does make a lot of difference in the playing. Ask any fiddle player. That doesn't mean there is only one right way to bow. Everyone's hand is shaped differently.
That being said, there are several things that make bowing easier. A loose wrist and a hold right at the frog gives you the ability to use the whole bow with good tone. Whether or not you make use of that ability is up to the player.
You may notice that most (not all) of the great players follow those rules when approaching bowing. A notable exception is Mairead Ni Mhaonaigh. I have heard her making a point, when teaching, to tell the students not to copy her bow hold. She has started out playing that way and never broke the habit. I have also heard her refer to her nephew, Ciaran's bow hold as an example of how it ought to be done.
It is possible to bow with good tone without a loose wrist or a hold at the frog. It's just a lot easier to do so with these things. So, if you're just learning, why not make things easier in the long run?
# Posted on May 6th 2009 by fiddleK
Re: Bow hold
However best ye may... witness...
Jerry Holland http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiNuFD1f4Cw
Frankie Gavin http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfbmeOmQ77I
Martin Hayes http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kfyu67M8994
Tommy Peoples http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHqFlS3gNMs&NR=1
Dwayne Cote http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igYTtpcgAV4&mode
# Posted on May 6th 2009 by drone
Re: Bow hold
Thank you all, very very much! I'll check out all those links soon.
And funny that you should mention Mairead's teaching, fiddleK... I often do the same thing... I tell my students to hold the bow with the thumb under the frog, not between the stick and the hair. Of course, that is because they need to learn to use the whole stick early on in their playing.
# Posted on May 6th 2009 by Miss Juliet
Re: Bow hold
What a lovely selection of clips, good stuff drone.
What did all of those fiddlers have in common?
Regardless of where on the bow they held, they all were relaxed, so relaxed in fact that they all seemed to be holding the bow between their thumb and just the index and middle fingers.
Also, none of them needed to use the whole bow from tip to frog. All of them, especially Tommy, kept the bow near the middle-to-tip. In the case of Martin Hayes, forget one inch, I believe he uses 1 centimeter of the bow.
The only 'power stroker' in the above bunch was Cote, and his vigorous bowing style suits the Scottish-tinged Cape Breton music he is playing quite well. Despite his animation and vigor you can see him using the ol' thumb & two fingers thing.
# Posted on May 6th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Bow hold
Not that anyone should aim for holding onto their bow with just the thumb, index and middle fingers. I believe it's a subconscious by-product of being in the zone and playing relaxed.
# Posted on May 6th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Bow hold
Every time I've seen Martin Hayes I've been impressed by how much of the bow he uses. He needs it for the long rolls and slurs, and then also for the slidey notes that he likes to emphasize.
And was it Kevin Burke that said something like you paid for the whole bow, so you might as well use all of it?
I'm really puzzled about this whole notion of only needing a small length of bow, especially for Irish music, which has so many slurs, and accents in the middle of the bow from pulsing the index finger (instead of just on the beginning of the bowstroke, as in in other styles). I would think that a bow hold that gives you as much control over as much of the bow as possible would be a good thing.
# Posted on May 6th 2009 by kennedy
Re: Bow hold
"diddley music includes the playing of slow airs."
I always kind of thought that diddley tunes kind of went diddley. Slow airs don't go diddley.
I changed my bow hold from a few inches away from the frog to the thumb in the frog about 20 years ago. It made a big difference to my slow air playing (once I got used to it), but it made no real difference to my diddley playing.
# Posted on May 6th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Bow hold
hmm interesting - I'm going to try this later. So I should reverse the bow and hold its tip? maybe holding it a third up toward the frog will help this balance issue...
# Posted on May 6th 2009 by airport
Re: Bow hold
Some slow airs most certainly go diddly. but in a slow kind of diddley way. In fact if your slow airs dont diddle perhaps you aint playing them right!
Airport, You could always play with the fiddle in your right hand and bow in your left, choked up on the tip. . but its probably not a good idea unless you are a lefty.
# Posted on May 6th 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: Bow hold
I think I'll attempt this on the airs:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5QCCK4PWRE
# Posted on May 6th 2009 by airport
Re: Bow hold
Kennedy, I was talking about Martin Hayes in that video, in particular. There are times when it doesn't look like he's moving the bow at all. Just watching him, then Peoples and then Cote you can see the contrast between small and huge amounts of bow, and the results on the sound, the style. You use as much bow as you need. The inverse of that Burke axiom is 'why use the whole bow if you only need one inch?'
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Bow hold
Or, why not just put the fiddle inside the bow, like airport's clip?
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Bow hold
yeah - then you really only have about 6 inches of bow available anyway
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by airport
Re: Bow hold
SWFL, yes, I just watched them and I see what you mean (never heard of Dwayne Cote before, he's wonderful), and for those clips, you're right. I think there's a danger in saying not to use a lot of bow, though, because some people will get the idea that you should always use as little bow as possible, and that won't lead to a good outcome.
I think it's also dangerous to say that any old bow hold is fine---I've seen lots of people with really stiff bow holds, choked up way high on the bow, fourth and third fingers flying---mostly because they think that's the way fiddlers hold the bow, because they see professional fiddlers doing it. And for people who've been playing since they were three years old, whatever bow hold they have is second nature to them and they can get whatever sound they want and be perfectly relaxed. Learning it later in life presents a different set of problems, though. If you hold your bow like a cocktail glass with your pinky pointing at the ceiling all the time, you're very likely to have tension in your hand, which will roughen your sound, and possibly contribute to injury. It's also harder to get much power out of the string. This isn't to say that nobody should bow that way---of course many good fiddlers do and sound fine. But I've seen many less experienced fiddlers with unconventional bowing technique who don't get a lot of sound out of their fiddles, or they have problems with fast string crossings, or other things that maybe could improve with a different approach.
Or maybe not. I'm sure many will disagree. It's just what I've noticed.
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by kennedy
Re: Bow hold
The one inch thing was just an exercise, to emphasize it. You can do a lot with a little bit. To be under control and have economy of movement.
I commend your caution. Learners, you should use proper technique out there. I was never taught this though:
http://teacherweb.com/NJ/MillstoneRiverSchool/Music/goodbowholdvlnvla.jpg
More like this:
http://www.singingwood.com/violin-bow-hold/VolinBowHoldImages/BowHold02.jpg
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Bow hold
Not "as little bow as possible," but (for this music) ***only as much bow as you need.***
I can't say I've ever seen anyone playing this music using too little bow. More common are the classical folks trying to cross to the dark side but still running from one end of the stick to the other on every note. Which is why their jigs and reels sound like poorly played Bach.
Short bow strokes are also an asset in many a snug session.
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Bow hold
Drone's clips of May 6 - nice - thank you
but crikey, I thought Frankie's bridge was about to collapse - have a look at its lean about midway through the (short) clip and at the end.
# Posted on May 11th 2009 by domnull