Are whistle really diatonic instruments? I don't play myself but I thought you could do some fancy fingering (half holes and such) to create chromatic scales, and even micro tones?
Yeah... it's possible to half hole and there are some cross fingering options... I can manage it on a waltz or air, and I have a few Breton and French tunes that are a bit chromatic. But at speed it's darn near impossible, at least for me. But I know some really good players who don't have a problem with, say, a G sharp or F natural in a dance tune. It is a limitation of the instrument though, and one reason why I'm switching more and more to flute! Might have to change my login to buttons 'n' flutes - but it doesn't quite have the same ring to it!
A 'C' is not all that useful unless you already have a D one of course.
What's called a 'D' whistle or flute is actually the same fingering as
a normal, concert pitch (C) oboe or Boehm flute. A 'C' whistle in folk
music would be considered a Bb instrument (fingered like a Bb clarinet)
in jazz or classical music. It transposes down a whole step from concert
pitch.
Isn't a C whistle quite useful if you want to play in C?
Are you sure about the transposition thing Hup?
Six fingers down gives concert pitch C. If I use a C whistle to play music notated in C, that's what I get.
Am I missing something?
D whistles may be very common in ITM, but that's surely another matter.
Another illustration of why it's better to just shut up ( I was going to use stronger language ) and learn to play by ear...imagine all the time you save transposing dots into "friendly" keys, whatever they may be, by just picking up a couple of whistles and trying them out until you find one that seems to match what you are hearing. It's not rocket science and doesn't take long to learn.
I know that a lot of very educated people are drawn to playing ITM and that they use their intellects in their daily lives to earn a living, but ITM is one pursuit where trying to use one's big brain to solve problems is more of an impediment than a help. Better to stop thinking, stop talking, stop wasting time on the internet, and spend more time LISTENING.
You mustn't equate education with intelligence.......but, yes, get a D whistle, then you only need two alternate fingerings, to give you the C nat for tunes in G, and G sharp, for tunes in A. (assuming for instance that both the G and the A tunes are major, that is to say Ionian mode, not Myxolydian or any other, in which case start again.....)......
C whistles, of course, are also useful for playing in F and G, using those two fingerings mentioned earlier, sometimes handy if you are playing with singers who need to pitch things a little differently to best suit their voices.
Tom, when you finger the note C on a D whistle - it really *is* a
C. The same fingering on a "C" whistle sounds a Bb. In music
theory, that's how the key of an instrument is decided. Formally
speaking a "C" whistle is a Bb whistle. But in Planet Trad there's
a different standard. That's fine so long as you know how
to translate the terminology for outsiders such a beginner
coming from another type of music.
A C whistle is indeed very useful for the handful of C and F
related tunes that come up now and then. But you cannot
do much in the average session without having a D whistle.
Buy a D first and see how you go. If you only play in
your kitchen by yourself for friends and family, I suppose it
doesn't matter.
I agree with the folks recommending learning the intervals and also recommend spending a few moments transposing, circle of fiths etc..
Strange part of having the piano accordion beaten into me at fragile age....memorizing the circle of fifths leads to understanding transposition.
After that, on the whistle, learning the basic D whistle fingering and watching the intervals doesn;t matter much about the key. Until you start exploring modalities affect on whistle key selection.
I am sure there are more experienced whistlers here who can give you thesis on that!
zippy, your last post has me thinking about a tune I have heard played on piano accordion ~ " Clarinet Polka " Is it anything like the tunes you learned at a fragile age?
My piano accordion playing friend plays a waltz version of " A Hundred Pipers"
Joel, it's true what you say. Though the diatonic nature of a tinwhistle is what makes it grand for getting tunes. Basically, any beginner can play a tune very shortly after just * playing * with the instrument. The solfegio is right there; literally at your fingertips. Also, it is fairly easy to play a reasonable C n (D whistle).
I would recommend every Irish player buy a D tin whistle. Try a few tunes. You might notice how great it is to have an instrument which is perfect for playing diatonic. In the best hands it is a chromatic instrument.
I play diatonic & then a few accidentals. Chromatic ~ not so good.
Buy a D whistle and start to learn to play tunes on it in the keys they are either a. listed in here, or b. played in at a session near you...
Once you've learnt enough tunes to realise which ones are hard to play on your D whistle (e.g. Julia Delaney) you can start thinking about acquiring other whistles. By then you will know which other whistles make sense (a C whistle for Julia Delaney, though you can just half hole your way through it on the D...)
As far as playing along with singers, you need to think of the other whistles as your "capo" - i.e. you learn the tune on the D whistle and then pick whatever whistle fits the awkward key your guitarrist/singer has chosen. You do that either by ear, by dictating to the gutiarrist or by asking what the first recognisable note is and working from there to how far above or below your D whistle that is. Then choose the appropriate whistle. I get a lot of mileage out of my low A whistle for male singers...
Also, a low D whistle is an option, but really, only after you've worked through the other whistles first. Another way you might find yourself going (technically known as "enlightenment") is to move to the flute - all round a more satisfying instrument to play.
Quote "Tom, when you finger the note C on a D whistle - it really *is* a
C. The same fingering on a "C" whistle sounds a Bb. In music
theory, that's how the key of an instrument is decided. Formally
speaking a "C" whistle is a Bb whistle. But in Planet Trad there's
a different standard. That's fine so long as you know how
to translate the terminology for outsiders such a beginner
coming from another type of music.
Hup"
Thank you for your courteous reply Hup, but when I pick up a Generation whistle labelled "C" put six fingers down and blow I get a note that both my tuner and my fiddle say is a C. Play up the scale and I get C major. Is it really any more complicated than that?
Say I'm sitting with a bunch of people and we're merrily playing a tune in D and I'm using a D whistle and all is nicely in tune.
Someone says, I like to play that in C, so off we go again a tone down. I pick up a C whistle and play the same fingering as before and we're still all in tune.
Isn't it purely academic hair-splitting to start saying the C whistle is actually a Bb whistle. So is an E whistle actually a D whistle? (And if not, why not?)
What's the point?
OK, (answering my own post) I think I've worked it out. You're saying Hup that technically the D whistle is the root of the family and its D is D so it's technically the "C whistle," and you then redefine all the others by their relationship to that one, so the one that sounds a tone below is actually the Bb.
Clarinet Polka, Barbara Polka....you name it... And lest we forget the Blackhawk Waltz whatever that was.
Both of my parents were Polish. The second they wheeled you out of the delivery room, your proud father stuck an accordion in the bassinette!
In fourth grade, I remember getting marched with my accordion by the holy Polish nuns from class to class to apparently provide some culture to the uneducated masses.
I was teased unmercifully. Probably why I waited until my fifties to seriously relearn a proper accordion (lets not get into the relative merits of C#/D versus B/C as to what's 'proper'!)
My Polish mother is very upset about that thing with the buttons... Not Polish.
That's right Tom. It's also quite right to call it hair-splitting, but this
information would be helpful for somebody coming in from the
'outside' with no background in Trad. That's all I've got to say on the subject.
A D whistle is a D whistle because the bottom note is D and it plays a D scale naturally. If you pick up a C whistle and play a scale as if it was a D scale, it sounds as a C scale. It is a little bit longer so it sounds lower.
A C flute (silver Boehm flute) has the same six fingerings for D as does the D whistle, but also has a key to play bottom C. Because of the key configuration, it plays a C scale more naturally (as 4 fingers down is an F, not F#).
Wind instruments are a very mixed up affair. In the case of whistles, D is the 'default' whistle in which the named notes sound the same as the ones on a piano. All other keyed whistles are usually played 'as if'' they are in D rather than re-thinking which fingers to put down to play a note. It makes it so easy to vary the key - just pick up another size whistle.
Recorders, however, come in two main 'keys', but instead of using the same fingerings to play different keys, you re-think the fingerings. So an alto recorder (also called treble I think) has three fingers C instead of three fingers G like the soprano/descant. Just be thankful ITM uses whistles rather than recorders!
C whistle
C whistle
Im trying to learn the C whistle and looked online but couldnt find a fingering chart so if anyone knows a link can you post it?
# Posted on May 4th 2009 by Odog87
Re: C whistle
XXX XXX = C
XXX XX0 = D
XXX X00 = E
etc
But you miss the point of a diatonic instrument.
# Posted on May 4th 2009 by ...
Re: C whistle
Never mind, 'C' is lovely . . . and 'F' is even better
# Posted on May 4th 2009 by lisaniska
Re: C whistle
Here's one:
http://www.fullbodyburn.com/images/charts/15-C.jpg
Cheers
Kara
# Posted on May 5th 2009 by buttons 'n' whistles
Re: C whistle
My advice is though, develop you ear and your ability to hear and play the intervals. Then you won't need a fingering chart
It does take time though.
# Posted on May 5th 2009 by buttons 'n' whistles
Re: C whistle
*your* ear
# Posted on May 5th 2009 by buttons 'n' whistles
Re: C whistle
Are whistle really diatonic instruments? I don't play myself but I thought you could do some fancy fingering (half holes and such) to create chromatic scales, and even micro tones?
# Posted on May 5th 2009 by McDermott
Re: C whistle
I meant 'whistles'.
# Posted on May 5th 2009 by McDermott
Re: C whistle
Yeah... it's possible to half hole and there are some cross fingering options... I can manage it on a waltz or air, and I have a few Breton and French tunes that are a bit chromatic. But at speed it's darn near impossible, at least for me. But I know some really good players who don't have a problem with, say, a G sharp or F natural in a dance tune. It is a limitation of the instrument though, and one reason why I'm switching more and more to flute! Might have to change my login to buttons 'n' flutes - but it doesn't quite have the same ring to it!
# Posted on May 5th 2009 by buttons 'n' whistles
Re: C whistle
A 'C' is not all that useful unless you already have a D one of course.
What's called a 'D' whistle or flute is actually the same fingering as
a normal, concert pitch (C) oboe or Boehm flute. A 'C' whistle in folk
music would be considered a Bb instrument (fingered like a Bb clarinet)
in jazz or classical music. It transposes down a whole step from concert
pitch.
# Posted on May 5th 2009 by Hup
Re: C whistle
Isn't a C whistle quite useful if you want to play in C?
Are you sure about the transposition thing Hup?
Six fingers down gives concert pitch C. If I use a C whistle to play music notated in C, that's what I get.
Am I missing something?
D whistles may be very common in ITM, but that's surely another matter.
# Posted on May 5th 2009 by TomB-R
Re: C whistle
Another illustration of why it's better to just shut up ( I was going to use stronger language ) and learn to play by ear...imagine all the time you save transposing dots into "friendly" keys, whatever they may be, by just picking up a couple of whistles and trying them out until you find one that seems to match what you are hearing. It's not rocket science and doesn't take long to learn.
I know that a lot of very educated people are drawn to playing ITM and that they use their intellects in their daily lives to earn a living, but ITM is one pursuit where trying to use one's big brain to solve problems is more of an impediment than a help. Better to stop thinking, stop talking, stop wasting time on the internet, and spend more time LISTENING.
# Posted on May 5th 2009 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: C whistle
You mustn't equate education with intelligence.......but, yes, get a D whistle, then you only need two alternate fingerings, to give you the C nat for tunes in G, and G sharp, for tunes in A. (assuming for instance that both the G and the A tunes are major, that is to say Ionian mode, not Myxolydian or any other, in which case start again.....)......
C whistles, of course, are also useful for playing in F and G, using those two fingerings mentioned earlier, sometimes handy if you are playing with singers who need to pitch things a little differently to best suit their voices.
# Posted on May 5th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: C whistle
Tom, when you finger the note C on a D whistle - it really *is* a
C. The same fingering on a "C" whistle sounds a Bb. In music
theory, that's how the key of an instrument is decided. Formally
speaking a "C" whistle is a Bb whistle. But in Planet Trad there's
a different standard. That's fine so long as you know how
to translate the terminology for outsiders such a beginner
coming from another type of music.
# Posted on May 6th 2009 by Hup
Re: C whistle
A C whistle is indeed very useful for the handful of C and F
related tunes that come up now and then. But you cannot
do much in the average session without having a D whistle.
Buy a D first and see how you go. If you only play in
your kitchen by yourself for friends and family, I suppose it
doesn't matter.
# Posted on May 6th 2009 by Hup
Re: C whistle
I agree with the folks recommending learning the intervals and also recommend spending a few moments transposing, circle of fiths etc..
Strange part of having the piano accordion beaten into me at fragile age....memorizing the circle of fifths leads to understanding transposition.
After that, on the whistle, learning the basic D whistle fingering and watching the intervals doesn;t matter much about the key. Until you start exploring modalities affect on whistle key selection.
I am sure there are more experienced whistlers here who can give you thesis on that!
# Posted on May 6th 2009 by zippydw
Re: C whistle
spot on llig!
zippy, your last post has me thinking about a tune I have heard played on piano accordion ~ " Clarinet Polka " Is it anything like the tunes you learned at a fragile age?
My piano accordion playing friend plays a waltz version of " A Hundred Pipers"
Joel, it's true what you say. Though the diatonic nature of a tinwhistle is what makes it grand for getting tunes. Basically, any beginner can play a tune very shortly after just * playing * with the instrument. The solfegio is right there; literally at your fingertips. Also, it is fairly easy to play a reasonable C n (D whistle).
I would recommend every Irish player buy a D tin whistle. Try a few tunes. You might notice how great it is to have an instrument which is perfect for playing diatonic. In the best hands it is a chromatic instrument.
I play diatonic & then a few accidentals. Chromatic ~ not so good.
# Posted on May 6th 2009 by Ben Steen
*
My chromatic playing is not so good.
Breda Smyth, however, is very good with playing the full chromatic; even on a Generation!
# Posted on May 6th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: C whistle
Buy a D whistle and start to learn to play tunes on it in the keys they are either a. listed in here, or b. played in at a session near you...
Once you've learnt enough tunes to realise which ones are hard to play on your D whistle (e.g. Julia Delaney) you can start thinking about acquiring other whistles. By then you will know which other whistles make sense (a C whistle for Julia Delaney, though you can just half hole your way through it on the D...)
As far as playing along with singers, you need to think of the other whistles as your "capo" - i.e. you learn the tune on the D whistle and then pick whatever whistle fits the awkward key your guitarrist/singer has chosen. You do that either by ear, by dictating to the gutiarrist or by asking what the first recognisable note is and working from there to how far above or below your D whistle that is. Then choose the appropriate whistle. I get a lot of mileage out of my low A whistle for male singers...
Also, a low D whistle is an option, but really, only after you've worked through the other whistles first. Another way you might find yourself going (technically known as "enlightenment") is to move to the flute - all round a more satisfying instrument to play.
# Posted on May 6th 2009 by Crackpot
Re: C whistle
Quote "Tom, when you finger the note C on a D whistle - it really *is* a
C. The same fingering on a "C" whistle sounds a Bb. In music
theory, that's how the key of an instrument is decided. Formally
speaking a "C" whistle is a Bb whistle. But in Planet Trad there's
a different standard. That's fine so long as you know how
to translate the terminology for outsiders such a beginner
coming from another type of music.
Hup"
Thank you for your courteous reply Hup, but when I pick up a Generation whistle labelled "C" put six fingers down and blow I get a note that both my tuner and my fiddle say is a C. Play up the scale and I get C major. Is it really any more complicated than that?
# Posted on May 6th 2009 by TomB-R
Re: C whistle
Say I'm sitting with a bunch of people and we're merrily playing a tune in D and I'm using a D whistle and all is nicely in tune.
Someone says, I like to play that in C, so off we go again a tone down. I pick up a C whistle and play the same fingering as before and we're still all in tune.
Isn't it purely academic hair-splitting to start saying the C whistle is actually a Bb whistle. So is an E whistle actually a D whistle? (And if not, why not?)
What's the point?
# Posted on May 6th 2009 by TomB-R
Re: C whistle
OK, (answering my own post) I think I've worked it out. You're saying Hup that technically the D whistle is the root of the family and its D is D so it's technically the "C whistle," and you then redefine all the others by their relationship to that one, so the one that sounds a tone below is actually the Bb.
I think I'll just let the mystery be!
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by TomB-R
Re: C whistle
Clarinet Polka, Barbara Polka....you name it... And lest we forget the Blackhawk Waltz whatever that was.
Both of my parents were Polish. The second they wheeled you out of the delivery room, your proud father stuck an accordion in the bassinette!
In fourth grade, I remember getting marched with my accordion by the holy Polish nuns from class to class to apparently provide some culture to the uneducated masses.
I was teased unmercifully. Probably why I waited until my fifties to seriously relearn a proper accordion (lets not get into the relative merits of C#/D versus B/C as to what's 'proper'!)
My Polish mother is very upset about that thing with the buttons... Not Polish.
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by zippydw
Re: C whistle
That's right Tom. It's also quite right to call it hair-splitting, but this
information would be helpful for somebody coming in from the
'outside' with no background in Trad. That's all I've got to say on the subject.
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by Hup
Re: C whistle
A D whistle is a D whistle because the bottom note is D and it plays a D scale naturally. If you pick up a C whistle and play a scale as if it was a D scale, it sounds as a C scale. It is a little bit longer so it sounds lower.
A C flute (silver Boehm flute) has the same six fingerings for D as does the D whistle, but also has a key to play bottom C. Because of the key configuration, it plays a C scale more naturally (as 4 fingers down is an F, not F#).
Wind instruments are a very mixed up affair. In the case of whistles, D is the 'default' whistle in which the named notes sound the same as the ones on a piano. All other keyed whistles are usually played 'as if'' they are in D rather than re-thinking which fingers to put down to play a note. It makes it so easy to vary the key - just pick up another size whistle.
Recorders, however, come in two main 'keys', but instead of using the same fingerings to play different keys, you re-think the fingerings. So an alto recorder (also called treble I think) has three fingers C instead of three fingers G like the soprano/descant. Just be thankful ITM uses whistles rather than recorders!
# Posted on May 7th 2009 by Bredna