Anyone else old enough to remember the early days of rock'n'roll?
I remember a teenage musician admitting that they had actually got an older jazz musician on their record to play the solo, and he was quoted as saying "Sure, these older guys can play the right notes, but you have to be a teenager to really feel the beat."
Plusqua ca change, plusqua ca meme chose.
( Sorry, don't know how to do the accents. )
Having said that this could be true (see above), it highlights the need to interpret the music from one's own angle, and not be preoccupied with upholding a tradition that may never be
one's own in the first place.
So that means that Mike McGoldrick, Desi Donelly Jnr, John Joe Kelly, Ed Boyd, Angelina Carberry, Ian Carr and Kevin Burke (there are certainly others, feel free to add to the list.) aren't really feeling it. What a load of sh*te.
i have plenty of what u could term bona fide Irish mates who curse an moan any time I wack a CD on. Calling it Darby O Gill music..
Various modes of indoctrination (leaving CD in player or their cars) have all failed..I stand in the minority. This problem gets more pronounced further south you go..Adversion to dARBY O Gill beats being most prounounced amongst mates from Cork..
Who listen to 50cent and wear G-Units shoes...dawg..
I like the comment about Mc Goldrick etc, there exists an example of a man growing up in Manchester who 'feels' the music enough to improvise, compose and add new life to tunes on a different level to anyone else I have encountered..And look at that Japanese fella on you tube that does the circular breathing. His tunes are top notch..Dont get too cerebral about musical perception. Especially in an ethnic sense. We are all a mixed bag
Meanwhile, not being co-nationals of Verdi, Mozart or Beethoven has not crippled interpretations of their works by fine singers or musicians or conductors from other lands. I *do* think nationals of a land / culture where a particular music comes from, are likely - if their interest is positive - to be acquainted with all manner of insights into its history and environment that an outsider simply won't have - not at the touch of a mental button, anyway; and that all this will inform and enrich their playing, quite apart from extra exposure to the music in the first place. But I see it at present as a win-win situation.
packbacker's list of names include at least four people who (as far as I know) have very immediate Irish connections, even if they grew up in Manchester or wherever.
What about in a situation of "ethnic cleansing"?
Does the feeling for the local music go with the exiles or stay with the land, now occupied by the cleansers?
Think about it and you'll see how silly the notion is that only those living in a place can have a feeling for its tradition
Yeah it's obviously a sweeping and genuinely stupid statement. I mean, just look at how popular bad knockoffs American twang pop (formerly known as "country music") and discotheque crap *spit* *spit* are in Ireland these days. Only Irish people can feel Irish traditional music? FFS most of them HATE trad, or are at best completely indifferent to its survival.
"I *do* think nationals of a land / culture where a particular music comes from, are likely - if their interest is positive - to be acquainted with all manner of insights into its history and environment that an outsider simply won't have - not at the touch of a mental button, anyway; and that all this will inform and enrich their playing,"-Nicholas
Context yes maybe..Playing..I think not..That is unless you seek to define playing in geographic terms. I which case
I live in Ankh-Morpork, aka Durham, in North-East England. I play whistle and a two-and-a-half-row DG Saltarelle melodeon. No Celtic background that I'm aware of;
Do you not fully grasp your own playing..Do you inhabit a transmorphic quasi incantation of celtic/itm musicianship gleaned from the durham witches and druids collective, perhaps whilst on holiday to stonehenge?..
i agree with seosamh here. but the reason why that is is because of the examples of trad, which is often stereotypical 'twee', that the public is exposed to causes this. its all about education, and when the schools in ireland devalue irish culture, ie. irish language, customs, music, etc. in favour of being 'politically correct' in not favouring one over the other, which they are doing now, then we inherently end up killing any trace of what makes ireland irish.
I suppose it is more like the Irish have a special way of "feeling" their own music as part of their culture, community, family and friends. But don't forget that Irish traditional music has become a very important link to Irish descendents throughout the world - an important link to ancestors and where they originally came from. Part of that special feeling includes the remembrance of the incredible hardship and famine that caused the immigration.
I don't think the two special ways of feeling about Irish traditional music necessarily encroach on each other.
Generally speaking, these kinds of "only-we-real-Irishmen-can-play-Irish-music-and-everyone-else-sucks" discussions tick me off royaly. However, I do think actually think that there might be something to this statement, if one thinks of music as a kind of language.
The only way to speak any language flawlessly is to be born into a that culture. Only through "total immersion" from birth can one learn a language and its special intonations, accents, tone, melody, etc. As an adult, you can certainly learn a new language (as I did, starting at age 48), and even become extremely fluent in that language - but you will never attain flawless intonation, melody, and even grammar if you weren't born into that culture.
So, in this case, I can actually understand that the same must be true for ITM. That's not to say that lots of folks can play the music very well....but the music will probably never truly be a part of the blood and bones like someone born into it.
A bit of a generalization to say the least.
I'll try to come up with another along the same lines.
' Anybody can learn to play Irish music, but, only in a full - tilt session can you ever know the tunes. '
Now, what's not to like about that?
Every Tuesday evening, I play my string bass (double bass or bass fiddle) with a mandolin and guitar group who like to experiment by trying to play anything and everything.
A few years ago, we had two musicians (a married couple) from Germany who joined us at our regular weekly practice. The wife plays mandolin and her husband plays guitar. These two German musicians brought some music with them from Germany which was composed by one of their friends.
One of the compositions was a ragtime piece. When the husband (the guitarist) asked us if we were willing to try to play this ragtime piece and the other compositions, we said that we would be glad to do so.
After we played the ragtime piece, this German guitarist said that we seemed to learn this ragtime piece and pick it up more quickly and easily than German musicians. He didn't seem to like it when I reminded him that we were probably able to learn the ragtime piece and play it better than musicians in Germany because ragtime was invented and perfected in the United States and not in Germany.
However, when ragtime music first became popular in the United States in the 1890's, it was criticized by the so-called "establishment" for being immoral and vile and contributing to the delinquency of young people because of its stereotypical "ragged' rhythms.
This so-called "establishment" were snobs who thought that the only good music was supposed to come from Europe and be composed by white men. They had a problem with ragtime (and later on jazz) because it was a blending and mixing of African and European musical traditions and culture.
There were some musicians in Europe (most notably Debussy and Brahms) who didn't share this attitude towards ragtime. They liked it and thought it was good music--especially Debussy. Brahms supposedly was planning to try to compose some ragtime when he died in 1897.
" Now let me get a rizzla
Little bit a herb
Light a old match
Let me settle my nerves
I gotta feel real high
Just to touch up on these tracks
Several ounces a day as a matter of fact "
'And look at that Japanese fella on you tube that does the circular breathing. His tunes are top notch..'
Interesting you brought him up. I played quite a lot with him. Hopefully I'll be seeing him again this summer.
When I first met him he had no personal style. He got lessons from The Liffey Banks Trio when they went over, so any style was probably Northern.
When we played tunes, he'd play them as he heard them on a CD. Conal O'Grada's Andersons, into Molloy's Bucks from youtube etc...Its funny, that if you work hard enough, you can emulate anyone else's style on your chosen instrument. All you need is a good set of CD's, and a good ear. Obviously some people pick it up quicker than others.
He's been studying regional stuff a lot now I've heard. He's a freak though. rediculously talented. I remember doing a tour with him around Tokyo, and when everyone else went to their scratchers in the hotel, I could still hear him practicing.
the same phrase over and over again. That's what it all boils down to I guess. Time, patience and practice.
There's a point, though, to the statement. This music does require immersion and listening to play right. You don't have to be brought up in the tradition but it would sure help. The lift, lilt, nyah, draoicht, that illusive and undefinable essence is real. There are other musical styles that have something similar, unique to themselves, like a blues vocal, or the quality that makes a song "rock", as mentioned above. Or the backbeat in reggae, I've heard it claimed that an authentic beat can only come from someone raised in Trenchtown. Or that your Ma and aunt must be the same person if you're to get the high lonesome of bluegrass. You rarely hear anyone accuse a band of failing to achieve the authentic Eurovision sound, though.
Fidkid, speaking of "Inbred Jed", did you hear about the spaceship whose captain was named Jedediah? The navigator spotted a star that wasn't very bright and told the captain, "It's dim, Jed."
That joke about Captain Jed was from a filksong which was written by a resident of California. I don't remember the tune but I think it is supposed to be sung to the theme music from the Beverley Hillbillies.
It is amazing how creative and sweeping a person's philosophical statements can be when the aim is to elevate one's own self, especially when the sweeping statement can only truly be validated from their own estimate of how wonderful they themselves are!
Hmmmmm....
Hmmmmm....
"Anybody can learn to play Irish music, but, only the Irish can feel it".
THIS IS NOT ME. THIS IS A QUOTE FROM A MAGAZINE ARTICLE.
Just a topic for debate.
# Posted on May 3rd 2009 by Dennis Regan
Re: Hmmmmm....
Why debate this? It's so obviously a sweeping statement.
# Posted on May 3rd 2009 by gtag
Re: Hmmmmm....
A new broom sweeps clean, but an old broom knows its corner.
# Posted on May 3rd 2009 by Mike Floorstand
Re: Hmmmmm....
It's probably true.
# Posted on May 3rd 2009 by chuneboi slim
Re: Hmmmmm....
Anyone else old enough to remember the early days of rock'n'roll?
I remember a teenage musician admitting that they had actually got an older jazz musician on their record to play the solo, and he was quoted as saying "Sure, these older guys can play the right notes, but you have to be a teenager to really feel the beat."
Plusqua ca change, plusqua ca meme chose.
( Sorry, don't know how to do the accents. )
# Posted on May 3rd 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Hmmmmm....
Having said that this could be true (see above), it highlights the need to interpret the music from one's own angle, and not be preoccupied with upholding a tradition that may never be
one's own in the first place.
# Posted on May 3rd 2009 by chuneboi slim
Re: Hmmmmm....
Pete: 'Plus ça change, plus c' est la même chose...'. (Jean-Baptiste Alphonse Karr)
# Posted on May 3rd 2009 by Henk Bos
Re: Hmmmmm....
Oh, maybe I was doing the Guernesais ( Channel Island patois ) version.
Well, that's my excuse anyway.
# Posted on May 3rd 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Hmmmmm....
So that means that Mike McGoldrick, Desi Donelly Jnr, John Joe Kelly, Ed Boyd, Angelina Carberry, Ian Carr and Kevin Burke (there are certainly others, feel free to add to the list.) aren't really feeling it. What a load of sh*te.
Listen listen listen, that's all.
# Posted on May 3rd 2009 by packbacker
Re: Hmmmmm....
Yeah, whatever. Only black men can sing the blues though.
# Posted on May 3rd 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: Hmmmmm....
...black men and an Irishman: Gary Moore
# Posted on May 3rd 2009 by Ramiro
Re: Hmmmmm....
And don't forget about Finbar Wright.
# Posted on May 3rd 2009 by Piece
Re: Hmmmmm....
A magazine article you say? Whew. Well, that solves it then, end of story! Good night, thanks for coming, folks!
# Posted on May 3rd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Hmmmmm....
Can you give us the name of the magazine so we don't accidentally buy it?
# Posted on May 3rd 2009 by GaryAMartin
Re: Hmmmmm....
I'm with SWFL Fiddler on this... you should only believe things that you read on the internet!
# Posted on May 3rd 2009 by davydd
Re: Hmmmmm....
i have plenty of what u could term bona fide Irish mates who curse an moan any time I wack a CD on. Calling it Darby O Gill music..
Various modes of indoctrination (leaving CD in player or their cars) have all failed..I stand in the minority. This problem gets more pronounced further south you go..Adversion to dARBY O Gill beats being most prounounced amongst mates from Cork..
Who listen to 50cent and wear G-Units shoes...dawg..
I like the comment about Mc Goldrick etc, there exists an example of a man growing up in Manchester who 'feels' the music enough to improvise, compose and add new life to tunes on a different level to anyone else I have encountered..And look at that Japanese fella on you tube that does the circular breathing. His tunes are top notch..Dont get too cerebral about musical perception. Especially in an ethnic sense. We are all a mixed bag
# Posted on May 3rd 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: Hmmmmm....
I imagine it is true.
Meanwhile, not being co-nationals of Verdi, Mozart or Beethoven has not crippled interpretations of their works by fine singers or musicians or conductors from other lands. I *do* think nationals of a land / culture where a particular music comes from, are likely - if their interest is positive - to be acquainted with all manner of insights into its history and environment that an outsider simply won't have - not at the touch of a mental button, anyway; and that all this will inform and enrich their playing, quite apart from extra exposure to the music in the first place. But I see it at present as a win-win situation.
packbacker's list of names include at least four people who (as far as I know) have very immediate Irish connections, even if they grew up in Manchester or wherever.
# Posted on May 3rd 2009 by nicholas
Re: Hmmmmm....
What about in a situation of "ethnic cleansing"?
Does the feeling for the local music go with the exiles or stay with the land, now occupied by the cleansers?
Think about it and you'll see how silly the notion is that only those living in a place can have a feeling for its tradition
# Posted on May 3rd 2009 by Bren
Re: Hmmmmm....
Yeah it's obviously a sweeping and genuinely stupid statement. I mean, just look at how popular bad knockoffs American twang pop (formerly known as "country music") and discotheque crap *spit* *spit* are in Ireland these days. Only Irish people can feel Irish traditional music? FFS most of them HATE trad, or are at best completely indifferent to its survival.
# Posted on May 3rd 2009 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: Hmmmmm....
"I *do* think nationals of a land / culture where a particular music comes from, are likely - if their interest is positive - to be acquainted with all manner of insights into its history and environment that an outsider simply won't have - not at the touch of a mental button, anyway; and that all this will inform and enrich their playing,"-Nicholas
Context yes maybe..Playing..I think not..That is unless you seek to define playing in geographic terms. I which case
# Posted on May 3rd 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: Hmmmmm....
I hand you a shovel
# Posted on May 3rd 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: Hmmmmm....
I live in Ankh-Morpork, aka Durham, in North-East England. I play whistle and a two-and-a-half-row DG Saltarelle melodeon. No Celtic background that I'm aware of;
Do you not fully grasp your own playing..Do you inhabit a transmorphic quasi incantation of celtic/itm musicianship gleaned from the durham witches and druids collective, perhaps whilst on holiday to stonehenge?..
Let me dig the first sod for you there
# Posted on May 3rd 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: Hmmmmm....
i agree with seosamh here. but the reason why that is is because of the examples of trad, which is often stereotypical 'twee', that the public is exposed to causes this. its all about education, and when the schools in ireland devalue irish culture, ie. irish language, customs, music, etc. in favour of being 'politically correct' in not favouring one over the other, which they are doing now, then we inherently end up killing any trace of what makes ireland irish.
# Posted on May 3rd 2009 by fiddleruairi
Re: Hmmmmm....
I suppose it is more like the Irish have a special way of "feeling" their own music as part of their culture, community, family and friends. But don't forget that Irish traditional music has become a very important link to Irish descendents throughout the world - an important link to ancestors and where they originally came from. Part of that special feeling includes the remembrance of the incredible hardship and famine that caused the immigration.
I don't think the two special ways of feeling about Irish traditional music necessarily encroach on each other.
# Posted on May 3rd 2009 by Micheál
Re: Hmmmmm....
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/2987
# Posted on May 3rd 2009 by Kenny
Re: Hmmmmm....
Generally speaking, these kinds of "only-we-real-Irishmen-can-play-Irish-music-and-everyone-else-sucks" discussions tick me off royaly. However, I do think actually think that there might be something to this statement, if one thinks of music as a kind of language.
The only way to speak any language flawlessly is to be born into a that culture. Only through "total immersion" from birth can one learn a language and its special intonations, accents, tone, melody, etc. As an adult, you can certainly learn a new language (as I did, starting at age 48), and even become extremely fluent in that language - but you will never attain flawless intonation, melody, and even grammar if you weren't born into that culture.
So, in this case, I can actually understand that the same must be true for ITM. That's not to say that lots of folks can play the music very well....but the music will probably never truly be a part of the blood and bones like someone born into it.
# Posted on May 3rd 2009 by Quarter Irish
Re: Hmmmmm....
@Trucks_Milligan:
I do indeed inhabit a world as odd as that you describe.
# Posted on May 3rd 2009 by nicholas
Re: Hmmmmm....
A bit of a generalization to say the least.
I'll try to come up with another along the same lines.
' Anybody can learn to play Irish music, but, only in a full - tilt session can you ever know the tunes. '
Now, what's not to like about that?
# Posted on May 3rd 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Hmmmmm....
Every Tuesday evening, I play my string bass (double bass or bass fiddle) with a mandolin and guitar group who like to experiment by trying to play anything and everything.
A few years ago, we had two musicians (a married couple) from Germany who joined us at our regular weekly practice. The wife plays mandolin and her husband plays guitar. These two German musicians brought some music with them from Germany which was composed by one of their friends.
One of the compositions was a ragtime piece. When the husband (the guitarist) asked us if we were willing to try to play this ragtime piece and the other compositions, we said that we would be glad to do so.
After we played the ragtime piece, this German guitarist said that we seemed to learn this ragtime piece and pick it up more quickly and easily than German musicians. He didn't seem to like it when I reminded him that we were probably able to learn the ragtime piece and play it better than musicians in Germany because ragtime was invented and perfected in the United States and not in Germany.
However, when ragtime music first became popular in the United States in the 1890's, it was criticized by the so-called "establishment" for being immoral and vile and contributing to the delinquency of young people because of its stereotypical "ragged' rhythms.
This so-called "establishment" were snobs who thought that the only good music was supposed to come from Europe and be composed by white men. They had a problem with ragtime (and later on jazz) because it was a blending and mixing of African and European musical traditions and culture.
There were some musicians in Europe (most notably Debussy and Brahms) who didn't share this attitude towards ragtime. They liked it and thought it was good music--especially Debussy. Brahms supposedly was planning to try to compose some ragtime when he died in 1897.
# Posted on May 3rd 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: Hmmmmm....
"I think black people should burn down the House of Blues."
-George Carlin
# Posted on May 3rd 2009 by Lint - upon - Tweed
Hmmmmm.... burn it
" Now let me get a rizzla
Little bit a herb
Light a old match
Let me settle my nerves
I gotta feel real high
Just to touch up on these tracks
Several ounces a day as a matter of fact "
Ziggy
# Posted on May 3rd 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Hmmmmm....
'And look at that Japanese fella on you tube that does the circular breathing. His tunes are top notch..'
Interesting you brought him up. I played quite a lot with him. Hopefully I'll be seeing him again this summer.
When I first met him he had no personal style. He got lessons from The Liffey Banks Trio when they went over, so any style was probably Northern.
When we played tunes, he'd play them as he heard them on a CD. Conal O'Grada's Andersons, into Molloy's Bucks from youtube etc...Its funny, that if you work hard enough, you can emulate anyone else's style on your chosen instrument. All you need is a good set of CD's, and a good ear. Obviously some people pick it up quicker than others.
He's been studying regional stuff a lot now I've heard. He's a freak though. rediculously talented. I remember doing a tour with him around Tokyo, and when everyone else went to their scratchers in the hotel, I could still hear him practicing.
the same phrase over and over again. That's what it all boils down to I guess. Time, patience and practice.
# Posted on May 3rd 2009 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Hmmmmm....
...good post Kenny. I like that cd. Nice tunes.
# Posted on May 3rd 2009 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Hmmmmm....
There's a point, though, to the statement. This music does require immersion and listening to play right. You don't have to be brought up in the tradition but it would sure help. The lift, lilt, nyah, draoicht, that illusive and undefinable essence is real. There are other musical styles that have something similar, unique to themselves, like a blues vocal, or the quality that makes a song "rock", as mentioned above. Or the backbeat in reggae, I've heard it claimed that an authentic beat can only come from someone raised in Trenchtown. Or that your Ma and aunt must be the same person if you're to get the high lonesome of bluegrass. You rarely hear anyone accuse a band of failing to achieve the authentic Eurovision sound, though.
# Posted on May 4th 2009 by fidkid
Please elaborate on how you arrived at this conclusion ~
" . . . your Ma and aunt must be the same person if you're to get the high lonesome of bluegrass . . . "
# Posted on May 4th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Hmmmmm....
I've met quite a few Irish (ie, born and raised in Ireland) people who
can't play and don't know much about their music.
I partly agree with the original statement though - you would have to
grow up surrounded by Trad music for it to really soak in.
That could easily happen in a place like New York or Manchester though.
# Posted on May 4th 2009 by Hup
Re: Hmmmmm....
Or Toronto, Chicago, Detroit... anywhere that there's a community of traditional musicians!
# Posted on May 4th 2009 by Nico
Re: Hmmmmm....
Random, I was referring to the Inbred Jed stereotype
# Posted on May 4th 2009 by fidkid
Re: Hmmmmm....
An excellent post:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/21466/comments#comment446801
# Posted on May 4th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Hmmmmm....
Fidkid, speaking of "Inbred Jed", did you hear about the spaceship whose captain was named Jedediah? The navigator spotted a star that wasn't very bright and told the captain, "It's dim, Jed."
# Posted on May 4th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: Hmmmmm....
lol/groan @ fauxcelt
# Posted on May 4th 2009 by fidkid
Re: Hmmmmm....
That joke about Captain Jed was from a filksong which was written by a resident of California. I don't remember the tune but I think it is supposed to be sung to the theme music from the Beverley Hillbillies.
# Posted on May 5th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: Hmmmmm....
It is amazing how creative and sweeping a person's philosophical statements can be when the aim is to elevate one's own self, especially when the sweeping statement can only truly be validated from their own estimate of how wonderful they themselves are!
# Posted on May 5th 2009 by Matt_Haverly
Re: Hmmmmm....
What magazine Dennis?
# Posted on May 5th 2009 by lisaniska
Re: Hmmmmm....
Matt, are you on drugs? Just say no!
# Posted on May 5th 2009 by Hup