I believe I'm correct in saying that, in Ireland, more and more young players, many of whom will be teaching at some time or other, are coming out of music college not only well-versed in Irish music but with a solid classical background as well. As the years go by this will surely have a cross-fertilisation effect on the Irish music - but not necessarily to its detriment. In 40 years time it will doubtless sound as different as the playing in the first half of the 20th c does to us now. But perhaps there will be some sort of natural reaction to try to maintain what people perceive as "traditional".
Trevor
Oh please - lets hope not! I just dont agree with that at all. If you think about trad players and classical players who also play trad, there is still a barrier up. It doesnt sound as good - maybe because its too strict or not relaxed enough. There are a couple of classical/trad players who are incredible - but they are very few and far between. Zoe Conway is one. I would also guess that there really arent that many people who play both classical and trad anyway. Trevor - I really dont know who youve been hanging around with in Ireland but no one I play with over there has studied classical and funnily enough there are all really, good and talented and technical players.
The future of all music may be at the crossroads of history. If you can do a mastertape and send it to an address and they put it up on their website and people like yourselves would pay a dollar to download and make up their own compilation disks and you get 95c in the dollar, then we could see a radical shake up in the structure of music companies/agents/radio stations/managers and the like...big and small.
The potential of the internet is upon us, as is the future.
I think the Classical players (as a sub-species like us) would strongly oppose any muddying of the waters as a general rule. They like their drop pure as much as we like the pure drop.
Oh, and by the way - Mr Spock played a very nice instrument in the original series, can't remember what it was called, and in the first episode of Star Trek Voyager-the "Caretaker" plays a five string banjo. 8~)
Recorded I'T'M has changed so much in my life time. Its bound to keep changing. I don't like Coolfin, but then I had a friend who hated the Bothy Band when I fell in love with them. He thought the Chieftains were at the limit of the traditional.
Traditional musics all over the world are changing. Scottish Highland Piping... Once it was 'law' that c natural didn't exist on the pipes. Now pipers are tempering their tuning, adding accidentals, playing in new rythyms. (eg Andy Renwick's Ferret)
I think each generation is seduced by their own version of traditional music, and once they are settled in their tastes, define their tastes as traditional when the next wave of interpretation arrives. Traditional is the way music is passed on, rather than the music itself?
PS Glad to hear there are banjos in Star Trek. Any accordians as well?
as was evidenced by the scene in galway, i think the music is going to develope more fully as a 'style' to interpret music through. Many of the muso's there were playing tunes from heaps of different cultures, but the music was still completely irish in charicter. It had none of the wishy-washy-worldyness that makes me so nervous about world music.
And as for the classical-hybrid... most of the college trained players i met were FAR more jazz influenced than classical.
And, if you think about it in reverse, the teaching of classical music has been pretty much unchanged for a couple of hundred years. It even resisted the influence of jazz in the 30's and 40's, a music that had infected the zeitgeist far more.
Nope, i think the future of the music is closer to home. I see session apon session of actor types dressed as frankenfurter playing djembe's and interpriting the music into long, jazzy whistle tones.... ahh, the futures a great place to be!
the future of music? maybe the table dance aesthetics make their way from actual chart hiphop-soulpop to classical orchestral music (so the conductor not only needs a dance training but some plastic surgery as well) while trad Irish will undergo some sampler/synthes
Paddy Moloney, 83, the leader of the renowned Chieftans, announced today that a recording is in the works with the channeled spirit of the great saxophone player John Coltrane. "Coltrane is no longer available on the earthly plane, of course" said Moloney, "but he will be channeled by Mme Fnchu Arbeau, who will actually use one of Coltrane's horns. Mme Arbeau can't play worth snot unless she's in contact with the spirit of the great Trane but when she is she really wails." Moloney also added that "this channelling thing opens up a lot of new possibilities for us. We're considering attempting to get in contact with either the Andrews Sisters or the Harmonicats for a recording session." Moloney also added that after this, the Chieftans are finally going to get around to recording "that chicken thing". This is a long-awaited project to be entitled Why Did the Chieftans Cross the Road.
Set dancing is exploding in popularity, at least here in the States. I hope that in the future there's formed a stronger connection between the dance and the music. That'd take it in the right direction, in my opinion. We're about ready for another "world" music to have a Riverdance type hay-day. Who knows what that'll be but my guess is that it'll de-emphasize the performance aspect of the music and leave the gate open for them that wants to play "Irish Dance Music." So, I think we may see a backlash, of sorts, against modern innovations inspired by commercialization of the music. At least, that's what the rabbit pulling the levers in my head seems to be plotting.
Monsanto yesterday announced yesterday they had isolated from the Goat the group of genes responsible for skin keratinisation, and have transgenically introduced these into yeast culture, along with the appropriate UAS, with the expressed interest of producing the world's first Vegetarian Bodhr
re jerball's comment on the setdancing craze in the US --
I'm sad to report that the future is bleak. I saw LOTD at the Venetian in Las Vegas over the weekend, & the future is completely canned. Not a single live musician to be had, & new agey pan flute samples oozing with synthesized orchestral backups predominating! Even during the one 'fiddle' number, the 2 chick fiddlers who had their fiddles convincingly miked up with black boxes on their backs, were faking it. The one girl was even gripping the neck halfway up, & the bowing was in sync as much as out of sync. I have to believe it used to be a great show, but Michael Flatley, where are you? Lots of ppl on this website I bet could use a job!
That's why I'm into "setdancing" not "stepdancing". Nothing against stepdancing; it's just not my style. I do think its future is shaky in regards to its connection to trad music.
Cheer up, Emily. This Stuff's been through these ups and downs before, and has always been robust enough to survive. The British tried to kill it. The Catholic church tried to kill it. Speak to some of the old boys and girls from Ireland about the forties and fifties..it nearly died out then also, but got 'revivalled' back to life with the Comhaltas, the invention of the Fleadhanna Cheoil, then O' Riada and his gang, followed by the Chieftains...you know the rest. Scottish Stuff took a hammering in the sixties with schmalzification due to TV shows. Gi'ed it a right doin'.
Once that Riverdance fad has passed, the tide will go out, and we're still gonna be there. I saw the same with running and racing. The eighties saw a huge boom with the jogging fad...some of these joggers upgraded themselves and became club runners. Now it's not so fashionable (club running, that is, ie, being a harrier, because jogging still seems to be popular) so numbers attending races have gone down...guess what? ...to just about the same, or a bit more, than pre-jogging boom numbers.
So don't worry about the fickle chattering classes. I don't mean to be cynical, and I've got loadsa respect for auld Johnny, but I imagine we'll see an increase in sales of Johnny Cash CD's for a few weeks.
Thanks Danny... but to clarify, you think the fad is waning? By fad, I don't even know if I mean the dancing, the huge shows or Irish music altogether. To me, it seems to be growing (every day a new tune or player it seems), but several ppl I've spoken with over the summer do think it (Irish music in general) is going into a downturn... I simply find that hard to believe, but that thread about sessions moving out of pubs is sort of echoing that thought. (?)
jerball, sorry for the confusion, yes it's mostly stepdancing (LOTD), but there were some numbers that I would consider setdancing, I did a word switch without thinking. Apologies. FWIW, the setdancing numbers I felt were the strongest.
Emily - No, not waning at all! I think its popularity is still going up, and will continue to do for a fair while yet (IMHO). But it's changing in character. These remarks could almost be slotted into that other thread and you wouldn't see the joins.
Remember we said there that it's because of the different attitudes, nowadays, to going out to the pub (in the UK...or rather, in Southern England...in Belfast {West End, where the term "UK" is synonymous with its big brother, the F-word}, I hear the craic is ninety, and things are good in Scotland also. And the Fleadh just keeps getting bigger). But the popularity of The Music globally is huge, right now. There have been a few threads recently (at least one started by me) comparing "The Music"-lovers to yer 70's muso-head types...maybe it's because there are simply more people alive today - about a half again, compared to the eighties.
So, along with this popularisation comes a dumbing-down... and that's where what you were describing, the sickly sweet synthesized garbage, comes in. I've seen it at our own session. We are the core of the entity, 95% of the time. But when the *young* dancers come in, it's: kill the live music, and on with the ghetto blaster.
All I meant to say was that, although it's still increasing in popularity, there will come a time, maybe in 2-5 years time, when it won't be so faddish. the tide will turn. Then it'll be down to us to keep it going. That's the real future of The Music, as I see it.
On reflection, it's all the more reason we should support sites such as this...No, I'm not just trying to keep sweet with Jeremy, because I've been naughty recently....but because we NEED to stick together, continue to argue what Our Music played at sessions Is, Was, and Will Be. What it represents...because it doesn't ONLY represent Ireland anymore. And to keep the discussions lively, because there's never just One Simple Answer.
David - of course, there'll cyborgs as well - terminators - but they'll only get to be bodhran players. Until they meet a cyborg fiddle player - then, if they don't get to play the fiddle they terminate the whole session, and I mean terminate.
But there'll also be half-human things with fiddle and flute and box and pipes and mandolin prostheses surgically attached to their other prosthetic limbs and organs. And dalek-kind of things, where a human brain in a jar is sited in the middle of a set of pipes, but wired up to the pipes , so able to play them. Or just the brain in the jar sending out thought waves controlling the whole session of computers.
The future?
The future?
Who wants to predict the Future of The Music?
All scenarios accepted. Just remember the truth is always gonna be stranger.....
Danny,
Planet Earth.
# Posted on September 11th 2003 by Rudall the time
Hmmm...
Dal Riata?
# Posted on September 11th 2003 by Aidan Crossey
Re: The future?
I believe I'm correct in saying that, in Ireland, more and more young players, many of whom will be teaching at some time or other, are coming out of music college not only well-versed in Irish music but with a solid classical background as well. As the years go by this will surely have a cross-fertilisation effect on the Irish music - but not necessarily to its detriment. In 40 years time it will doubtless sound as different as the playing in the first half of the 20th c does to us now. But perhaps there will be some sort of natural reaction to try to maintain what people perceive as "traditional".
Trevor
# Posted on September 11th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: The future?
Q: Why are there no banjos on Star Trek?
A: Because it's the future...
So, how far in the future are we talking here, Danny?
# Posted on September 11th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: The future?
Oh please - lets hope not! I just dont agree with that at all. If you think about trad players and classical players who also play trad, there is still a barrier up. It doesnt sound as good - maybe because its too strict or not relaxed enough. There are a couple of classical/trad players who are incredible - but they are very few and far between. Zoe Conway is one. I would also guess that there really arent that many people who play both classical and trad anyway. Trevor - I really dont know who youve been hanging around with in Ireland but no one I play with over there has studied classical and funnily enough there are all really, good and talented and technical players.
# Posted on September 11th 2003 by bb
Re: The future?
The future of all music may be at the crossroads of history. If you can do a mastertape and send it to an address and they put it up on their website and people like yourselves would pay a dollar to download and make up their own compilation disks and you get 95c in the dollar, then we could see a radical shake up in the structure of music companies/agents/radio stations/managers and the like...big and small.
The potential of the internet is upon us, as is the future.
I think the Classical players (as a sub-species like us) would strongly oppose any muddying of the waters as a general rule. They like their drop pure as much as we like the pure drop.
Oh, and by the way - Mr Spock played a very nice instrument in the original series, can't remember what it was called, and in the first episode of Star Trek Voyager-the "Caretaker" plays a five string banjo. 8~)
# Posted on September 11th 2003 by Greenwiggle
Re: The future?
Nanofiddles.
# Posted on September 11th 2003 by emily_bmore
Re: The future?
I've seen a nanofiddle.
They're the sopranino version of the tea chest bass, made out of a violin scroll, a short length of dowel and - what else - a tea pot.
# Posted on September 11th 2003 by Tish
Re: The future?
Recorded I'T'M has changed so much in my life time. Its bound to keep changing. I don't like Coolfin, but then I had a friend who hated the Bothy Band when I fell in love with them. He thought the Chieftains were at the limit of the traditional.
Traditional musics all over the world are changing. Scottish Highland Piping... Once it was 'law' that c natural didn't exist on the pipes. Now pipers are tempering their tuning, adding accidentals, playing in new rythyms. (eg Andy Renwick's Ferret)
I think each generation is seduced by their own version of traditional music, and once they are settled in their tastes, define their tastes as traditional when the next wave of interpretation arrives. Traditional is the way music is passed on, rather than the music itself?
PS Glad to hear there are banjos in Star Trek. Any accordians as well?
# Posted on September 11th 2003 by NeilBarr
Re: The future?
Ultraflutes and hyperpipes
# Posted on September 11th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: The future?
as was evidenced by the scene in galway, i think the music is going to develope more fully as a 'style' to interpret music through. Many of the muso's there were playing tunes from heaps of different cultures, but the music was still completely irish in charicter. It had none of the wishy-washy-worldyness that makes me so nervous about world music.
And as for the classical-hybrid... most of the college trained players i met were FAR more jazz influenced than classical.
And, if you think about it in reverse, the teaching of classical music has been pretty much unchanged for a couple of hundred years. It even resisted the influence of jazz in the 30's and 40's, a music that had infected the zeitgeist far more.
Nope, i think the future of the music is closer to home. I see session apon session of actor types dressed as frankenfurter playing djembe's and interpriting the music into long, jazzy whistle tones.... ahh, the futures a great place to be!
# Posted on September 11th 2003 by SirNose
Re: The future?
More thrust on the bodhran, Scotty.
She won't take much more, Captain.
# Posted on September 11th 2003 by geoffwright
Re: The future?
The instrument Spock played was called a harp, but it was much more like a lyre actually. It was lovely stuff, but you couldn't really dance to it.
# Posted on September 11th 2003 by Andee
Re: The future?
Black holes in Bb?
# Posted on September 11th 2003 by jkneale
Star Treck: Captain Picard plays the tinwhistle
http://www.chiffandfipple.com/startrek.htm
# Posted on September 11th 2003 by gian marco
The future is pink and crazy...
the future of music? maybe the table dance aesthetics make their way from actual chart hiphop-soulpop to classical orchestral music (so the conductor not only needs a dance training but some plastic surgery as well) while trad Irish will undergo some sampler/synthes
# Posted on September 11th 2003 by crannog
Re: The future?
More thrust on the bodhran, Scotty.
She won't take much more, Captain.
Neither will the crew - Data
Sorry Geoff, couldn't resist it!
Jim
# Posted on September 11th 2003 by Worldfiddler
Re: The future?
Paddy Moloney, 83, the leader of the renowned Chieftans, announced today that a recording is in the works with the channeled spirit of the great saxophone player John Coltrane. "Coltrane is no longer available on the earthly plane, of course" said Moloney, "but he will be channeled by Mme Fnchu Arbeau, who will actually use one of Coltrane's horns. Mme Arbeau can't play worth snot unless she's in contact with the spirit of the great Trane but when she is she really wails." Moloney also added that "this channelling thing opens up a lot of new possibilities for us. We're considering attempting to get in contact with either the Andrews Sisters or the Harmonicats for a recording session." Moloney also added that after this, the Chieftans are finally going to get around to recording "that chicken thing". This is a long-awaited project to be entitled Why Did the Chieftans Cross the Road.
Steve
# Posted on September 11th 2003 by SteveKendall
Re: The future?
Set dancing is exploding in popularity, at least here in the States. I hope that in the future there's formed a stronger connection between the dance and the music. That'd take it in the right direction, in my opinion. We're about ready for another "world" music to have a Riverdance type hay-day. Who knows what that'll be but my guess is that it'll de-emphasize the performance aspect of the music and leave the gate open for them that wants to play "Irish Dance Music." So, I think we may see a backlash, of sorts, against modern innovations inspired by commercialization of the music. At least, that's what the rabbit pulling the levers in my head seems to be plotting.
# Posted on September 12th 2003 by jerball
Re: The future?
Monsanto yesterday announced yesterday they had isolated from the Goat the group of genes responsible for skin keratinisation, and have transgenically introduced these into yeast culture, along with the appropriate UAS, with the expressed interest of producing the world's first Vegetarian Bodhr
# Posted on September 12th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: The future?
Of all the things that you can predict, the future is the hardest.
---Michael B.
# Posted on September 12th 2003 by MichaelBolton
Re: The future?
Mmm... Yes, Michael.
And time travel isn't what it used to be either.
# Posted on September 12th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: The future?
re jerball's comment on the setdancing craze in the US --
I'm sad to report that the future is bleak. I saw LOTD at the Venetian in Las Vegas over the weekend, & the future is completely canned. Not a single live musician to be had, & new agey pan flute samples oozing with synthesized orchestral backups predominating! Even during the one 'fiddle' number, the 2 chick fiddlers who had their fiddles convincingly miked up with black boxes on their backs, were faking it. The one girl was even gripping the neck halfway up, & the bowing was in sync as much as out of sync. I have to believe it used to be a great show, but Michael Flatley, where are you? Lots of ppl on this website I bet could use a job!
# Posted on September 12th 2003 by emily_bmore
Re: The future?
That's why I'm into "setdancing" not "stepdancing". Nothing against stepdancing; it's just not my style. I do think its future is shaky in regards to its connection to trad music.
# Posted on September 12th 2003 by jerball
Re: The future?
Cheer up, Emily. This Stuff's been through these ups and downs before, and has always been robust enough to survive. The British tried to kill it. The Catholic church tried to kill it. Speak to some of the old boys and girls from Ireland about the forties and fifties..it nearly died out then also, but got 'revivalled' back to life with the Comhaltas, the invention of the Fleadhanna Cheoil, then O' Riada and his gang, followed by the Chieftains...you know the rest. Scottish Stuff took a hammering in the sixties with schmalzification due to TV shows. Gi'ed it a right doin'.
Once that Riverdance fad has passed, the tide will go out, and we're still gonna be there. I saw the same with running and racing. The eighties saw a huge boom with the jogging fad...some of these joggers upgraded themselves and became club runners. Now it's not so fashionable (club running, that is, ie, being a harrier, because jogging still seems to be popular) so numbers attending races have gone down...guess what? ...to just about the same, or a bit more, than pre-jogging boom numbers.
So don't worry about the fickle chattering classes. I don't mean to be cynical, and I've got loadsa respect for auld Johnny, but I imagine we'll see an increase in sales of Johnny Cash CD's for a few weeks.
Danny.
# Posted on September 12th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: The future?
Music will cease to be played by humans. Sessions will consist of a collection of computers, beeping in unison, and supping virtual porter.
# Posted on September 12th 2003 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: The future?
Thanks Danny... but to clarify, you think the fad is waning? By fad, I don't even know if I mean the dancing, the huge shows or Irish music altogether. To me, it seems to be growing (every day a new tune or player it seems), but several ppl I've spoken with over the summer do think it (Irish music in general) is going into a downturn... I simply find that hard to believe, but that thread about sessions moving out of pubs is sort of echoing that thought. (?)
jerball, sorry for the confusion, yes it's mostly stepdancing (LOTD), but there were some numbers that I would consider setdancing, I did a word switch without thinking. Apologies. FWIW, the setdancing numbers I felt were the strongest.
# Posted on September 12th 2003 by emily_bmore
Re: The future?
Emily, no worries. You'd have to steal my beer to actually offend me.
# Posted on September 12th 2003 by jerball
Re: The future?
Emily - No, not waning at all! I think its popularity is still going up, and will continue to do for a fair while yet (IMHO). But it's changing in character. These remarks could almost be slotted into that other thread and you wouldn't see the joins.
Remember we said there that it's because of the different attitudes, nowadays, to going out to the pub (in the UK...or rather, in Southern England...in Belfast {West End, where the term "UK" is synonymous with its big brother, the F-word}, I hear the craic is ninety, and things are good in Scotland also. And the Fleadh just keeps getting bigger). But the popularity of The Music globally is huge, right now. There have been a few threads recently (at least one started by me) comparing "The Music"-lovers to yer 70's muso-head types...maybe it's because there are simply more people alive today - about a half again, compared to the eighties.
So, along with this popularisation comes a dumbing-down... and that's where what you were describing, the sickly sweet synthesized garbage, comes in. I've seen it at our own session. We are the core of the entity, 95% of the time. But when the *young* dancers come in, it's: kill the live music, and on with the ghetto blaster.
All I meant to say was that, although it's still increasing in popularity, there will come a time, maybe in 2-5 years time, when it won't be so faddish. the tide will turn. Then it'll be down to us to keep it going. That's the real future of The Music, as I see it.
On reflection, it's all the more reason we should support sites such as this...No, I'm not just trying to keep sweet with Jeremy, because I've been naughty recently....but because we NEED to stick together, continue to argue what Our Music played at sessions Is, Was, and Will Be. What it represents...because it doesn't ONLY represent Ireland anymore. And to keep the discussions lively, because there's never just One Simple Answer.
Danny.
# Posted on September 12th 2003 by Rudall the time
Cyborgs
David - of course, there'll cyborgs as well - terminators - but they'll only get to be bodhran players. Until they meet a cyborg fiddle player - then, if they don't get to play the fiddle they terminate the whole session, and I mean terminate.
But there'll also be half-human things with fiddle and flute and box and pipes and mandolin prostheses surgically attached to their other prosthetic limbs and organs. And dalek-kind of things, where a human brain in a jar is sited in the middle of a set of pipes, but wired up to the pipes , so able to play them. Or just the brain in the jar sending out thought waves controlling the whole session of computers.
See? - the future is healthy after all!
Danny.
# Posted on September 12th 2003 by Rudall the time