I have recently started playing mandolin with a group. We are playing a few Scottish and Irish tunes, as well as a few bluegrass songs. One difference that I hear in bluegrass as compared to Irish music - especially at sessions - is that people take their own breaks; sometimes the melody might only be played simultaneously at the beginning and end of the tune. As a result, there are often multiple versions of bluegrass songs (or breaks for songs) out there, even for the mainstays like Cripple Creek and Old Joe Clark, etc.
Our banjo player is a beginner. He has learned a few tunes that integrate the melody lines into the rolls that he is playing. The fiddle player and I are constantly re-arranging the melody lines on our breaks to fit the version of the song that he has learned, since our parts might not sound exactly right on top of the melody notes he is playing. Here's the question... When a bluegrass banjo player is playing behind a mandolin or fiddle break, what does she play? Does she roll chords with melody bits and the breaks need to be reworked to match? Roll chords only without melody bits? Chuck chords? I am sure a pro would do all three, but remember, we are beginners! Any suggestions?
This is an Irish music forum. I know in many places in the States Bluegrass and "Celtic" often get fused together so maybe that's why you asked the question here. They are actually very different musical idioms. Bluegrass is a totally different style of music and very few people can successfully swap between the two. I don't know any Irish players who talk about roll chords and chuck chords, or even know what they are for that matter, Are there not Bluegrass forums? That might be a more helpful place to look for the answer to your questions.
Irish banjo players generally play a four string tenor banjo rather than the five string variety.
SilverSpear is right, this might not be the best place to ask questions like this. But it is a pretty simple question, and you've answered it yourself. You do all three -- and you don't have to be a pro at all. Your banjo player can try up-the-neck vamping with chuck chords (or chop chords, where you hit all strings simultaneously on the back beat, and immediately lift your fretting fingers slightly, to muffle the sound) or roll chords. If she incorporates melody notes in her rolls that clash with the mando or fiddle break, then she should save that for her own break and only play rolls and chucks to support YOUR turn. And she should play as lightly as possible when backing, steel or nickel fingerpicks can really overwhelm a mandolin.
The above two answers give it right.
I would add that the ITM tradition is that most instruments play in unison, or as near as they can manage, and backing, from the older 'driving the piano' technique to the more modern use of guitar and bouzouki as chordal instruments is a very much latter-day arrival in a long tradition.
Even the introduction of the tenor banjo is very much a mid-20th century arrival.
OK, bluegrass only was invented in the mid 20thc, so to talk of tradition seems a bit over-egging it.
Have you heard about the 3 ( British ) Armed Services ?
The Navy has traditions, the Army has customs, and the Royal Air Force has habits ! All to do with how long each has been going, I guess.
A quick answer to your question is they should be playing backup that wouldn't conflict with you taking liberties during your solo. Playing the melody during someone else's break might conflict with what they are doing. Playing chord based backup would be a good solution.
dwacker,
Almost all bluegrass breaks are solos, just one instrument playing the lead, the others backing up (which can make it very challenging, if you have four backing instruments trying not to get in way of the melody/vocals and each other). The exception is an occasional duet, perhaps with harmony. When a fiddle or mandolin takes a break, the banjo has the option of chunking chords, or rolling unobtrusively, but usually not playing the melody. Behind the mandolin, some instructors will tell you a chunk is better, and behind a fiddle, often rolls are ok, but the primary rule is, compliment the melody player and at the very least, don't get in the way.
That said, if you listen to most of the professional and semi-pro groups recording these days, you don't here a lot of chunking of chords--the trend seems to be to roll, and it is usually very tasteful and/or mixed down so that it doesn't interfere with the melody or the vocals.
And if you want really good bluegrass advice, do go to the banjo hangout. No telling what can happen to even a really relevant question around here, much less a tangential one.
I don't actually play the banjo, but I have been to a bluegrass session before I love the banjo, and rolls are nice, but I always liked that...frail?flail? thing they do...where its kind of like chopping except i think they let it ring...I dk I saw steve martin do it on youtube though and it sounded real nice. Well good luck anywho!
Watch some video clips on youtube to get an idea what other players like to do. Try watching Earl Scruggs and Don Reno for two "inter-break" vamping/filler approaches that are sometimes radically different, and sometimes very similar.
The general approach of many players (including myself) is to vamp the backbeat by plucking chords with three fingers on the left hand, interspersed by picking licks or snatches of melody (these are fills) at moments which will accent the rhythm nicely.
Regardless of what your banjo player is doing when it's not "his" break, he should be farther from the microphone than when it is his turn - mic or no mic, he should be playing softer between his breaks. His decision of when and whether to use fills or vamps should vary between breakdowns and sing-songs, usually more fills are picked behind singing, and more vamping is used while someone else is taking a break in a breakdown.
As a note to the first few posters, I wanted to ask this question here specifically because it was an Irish music site. I am from a bluegrass background, but have always played bass. I am learning Irish/Celtic music on the mando here in Scotland. The other musicians that I am playing with have very little bluegrass experience. I feigned a little ignorance here because I wanted to let our banjo player read about this issue as it was articulated by Irish music players, folks well versed in a genre that he has more familiarity with. I don't know if that makes any sense to you all, but it seems logical to me .
Anyway, with all of your help, I suspect we can figure out some new ways to sound better and better!
A Bluegrass Banjo Question
A Bluegrass Banjo Question
I have recently started playing mandolin with a group. We are playing a few Scottish and Irish tunes, as well as a few bluegrass songs. One difference that I hear in bluegrass as compared to Irish music - especially at sessions - is that people take their own breaks; sometimes the melody might only be played simultaneously at the beginning and end of the tune. As a result, there are often multiple versions of bluegrass songs (or breaks for songs) out there, even for the mainstays like Cripple Creek and Old Joe Clark, etc.
Our banjo player is a beginner. He has learned a few tunes that integrate the melody lines into the rolls that he is playing. The fiddle player and I are constantly re-arranging the melody lines on our breaks to fit the version of the song that he has learned, since our parts might not sound exactly right on top of the melody notes he is playing. Here's the question... When a bluegrass banjo player is playing behind a mandolin or fiddle break, what does she play? Does she roll chords with melody bits and the breaks need to be reworked to match? Roll chords only without melody bits? Chuck chords? I am sure a pro would do all three, but remember, we are beginners! Any suggestions?
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by dwacker
Re: A Bluegrass Banjo Question
This is an Irish music forum. I know in many places in the States Bluegrass and "Celtic" often get fused together so maybe that's why you asked the question here. They are actually very different musical idioms. Bluegrass is a totally different style of music and very few people can successfully swap between the two. I don't know any Irish players who talk about roll chords and chuck chords, or even know what they are for that matter, Are there not Bluegrass forums? That might be a more helpful place to look for the answer to your questions.
Irish banjo players generally play a four string tenor banjo rather than the five string variety.
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: A Bluegrass Banjo Question
SilverSpear is right, this might not be the best place to ask questions like this. But it is a pretty simple question, and you've answered it yourself. You do all three -- and you don't have to be a pro at all. Your banjo player can try up-the-neck vamping with chuck chords (or chop chords, where you hit all strings simultaneously on the back beat, and immediately lift your fretting fingers slightly, to muffle the sound) or roll chords. If she incorporates melody notes in her rolls that clash with the mando or fiddle break, then she should save that for her own break and only play rolls and chucks to support YOUR turn. And she should play as lightly as possible when backing, steel or nickel fingerpicks can really overwhelm a mandolin.
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by fidkid
Re: A Bluegrass Banjo Question
The above two answers give it right.
I would add that the ITM tradition is that most instruments play in unison, or as near as they can manage, and backing, from the older 'driving the piano' technique to the more modern use of guitar and bouzouki as chordal instruments is a very much latter-day arrival in a long tradition.
Even the introduction of the tenor banjo is very much a mid-20th century arrival.
OK, bluegrass only was invented in the mid 20thc, so to talk of tradition seems a bit over-egging it.
Have you heard about the 3 ( British ) Armed Services ?
The Navy has traditions, the Army has customs, and the Royal Air Force has habits ! All to do with how long each has been going, I guess.
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: A Bluegrass Banjo Question
A quick answer to your question is they should be playing backup that wouldn't conflict with you taking liberties during your solo. Playing the melody during someone else's break might conflict with what they are doing. Playing chord based backup would be a good solution.
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by drinkybanjo
Re: A Bluegrass Banjo Question
Try poking around at thebanjohangout.org. Lots of bluegrass info over there and at the mandolincafe.com.
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by Steve L
Re: A Bluegrass Banjo Question
dwacker,
Almost all bluegrass breaks are solos, just one instrument playing the lead, the others backing up (which can make it very challenging, if you have four backing instruments trying not to get in way of the melody/vocals and each other). The exception is an occasional duet, perhaps with harmony. When a fiddle or mandolin takes a break, the banjo has the option of chunking chords, or rolling unobtrusively, but usually not playing the melody. Behind the mandolin, some instructors will tell you a chunk is better, and behind a fiddle, often rolls are ok, but the primary rule is, compliment the melody player and at the very least, don't get in the way.
That said, if you listen to most of the professional and semi-pro groups recording these days, you don't here a lot of chunking of chords--the trend seems to be to roll, and it is usually very tasteful and/or mixed down so that it doesn't interfere with the melody or the vocals.
And if you want really good bluegrass advice, do go to the banjo hangout. No telling what can happen to even a really relevant question around here, much less a tangential one.
# Posted on April 7th 2009 by ayedbl
Re: A Bluegrass Banjo Question
I don't actually play the banjo, but I have been to a bluegrass session before
I love the banjo, and rolls are nice, but I always liked that...frail?flail? thing they do...where its kind of like chopping except i think they let it ring...I dk I saw steve martin do it on youtube though and it sounded real nice. Well good luck anywho!
# Posted on April 8th 2009 by steve...r
Re: A Bluegrass Banjo Question
Watch some video clips on youtube to get an idea what other players like to do. Try watching Earl Scruggs and Don Reno for two "inter-break" vamping/filler approaches that are sometimes radically different, and sometimes very similar.
The general approach of many players (including myself) is to vamp the backbeat by plucking chords with three fingers on the left hand, interspersed by picking licks or snatches of melody (these are fills) at moments which will accent the rhythm nicely.
Regardless of what your banjo player is doing when it's not "his" break, he should be farther from the microphone than when it is his turn - mic or no mic, he should be playing softer between his breaks. His decision of when and whether to use fills or vamps should vary between breakdowns and sing-songs, usually more fills are picked behind singing, and more vamping is used while someone else is taking a break in a breakdown.
# Posted on April 8th 2009 by gravelwalks
Re: A Bluegrass Banjo Question
Excuse me, stewardess... I speak jive.
# Posted on April 8th 2009 by jwvansteenwyk
Re: A Bluegrass Banjo Question
Thank you to everyone for such great answers!
.
As a note to the first few posters, I wanted to ask this question here specifically because it was an Irish music site. I am from a bluegrass background, but have always played bass. I am learning Irish/Celtic music on the mando here in Scotland. The other musicians that I am playing with have very little bluegrass experience. I feigned a little ignorance here because I wanted to let our banjo player read about this issue as it was articulated by Irish music players, folks well versed in a genre that he has more familiarity with. I don't know if that makes any sense to you all, but it seems logical to me
Anyway, with all of your help, I suspect we can figure out some new ways to sound better and better!
# Posted on April 8th 2009 by dwacker
Re: A Bluegrass Banjo Question
Same thing happened to me in a night club once, in Bangkok.
Kinda.
# Posted on April 8th 2009 by jwvansteenwyk