As most of us in the UK will know, sessions in the UK have already been affected by the Licensing Act 2003, which came into force in November 2005. Under the Act, all owners of premises where live music is played are obliged to follow the costly and complex process of applying for a music licence.
Anyone allowing live music to be played in a public place without a licence already risks a maximimum penalty of a £20,000 fine - or a six month prison sentence.
What is ridiculous about this this law is that it applies only to LIVE music (which may well be accoustic, like a session) but not to recorded music, which is of course amplified.
However, the situation is now set to get much worse. Proposals for the extension of the Licencing Act (following pressure from the music industry) have been set out in a new government "white paper".
Under the proposals, all venues where live music is played would be obliged to submit a "play list" to the licensing authority - one week in advance. These venues would of course include session pubs.
Do you know "one week in advance" which tunes you are going to be playing at your local session? I think not!
We need to act NOW, before it is too late.
I would urge every session member living in the UK to write to their MP (For the benefit of session members living in the USA, "MP" is "Member of Parliament" - the equivalent of one of your congressmen).
For those who unfamiliar with the meaning of the term "government white paper", more information here:
As with the "no smoking" legislation (which also affected pubs) it appears that there may possibly different implementations of the law in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, but no details of this have yet been published.
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
as the combination of the complexities/expense of the 2005 Licensing Act, the "No Smoking" legislation and the recession is closing pubs to acoustic session musicians at a rapdily escalating rate, I fear that the discussion may prove to be academic ............. round where I live, the only pubs that are flourishing are the "canned music/cheap beer" venues - the rest are transforming themselves into restuarants or simply going out of business.
I agree that MP's should be lobbied to resist further harmful and heavy-handed regulations - but it's most likely not going to make much difference one way or the other in many parts of the UK outside the major urban centres.
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
That wasn't my thread.
Sorry, I thought you were at it with the "submitting a play list" bit. In that case this really is a bizarre piece of legislation.
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
Beauracracy never ceases to amaze me.For a minute I thought this an April Fool's stunt. Perhaps you could set up a number of playlists and list the tunes in Irish: An Fainne Oir,Tri Taoiseacha etc. Then I suppose they'll pass an amendment that all playlists must be in English.
Surely there must be some MPs who play music.In the States there was Bill Cilinton and Connie Rice. Here in Australia our Minister for Enviroment is Peter Garrett, who used to be front man for Midnight Oil.( Many think he was a better singer than Minister!) . I'd be seeking their assistance, but this is madness. Good luck with it.
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
While Mix is right that we should be vigilant we should note that the link he gives is "Last Updated: Wednesday, 23 May 2007, 12:28 GMT 13:28 UK" - there were discussions on this board at the time, and sessions are still going on. We should beware of creating a scare story just in case pub landlords say "this is all too much trouble - better put a stop to that lot and their tunes". All a pub landlord needs to know is that the tunes are "traditional". Don't over-complicate by even hinting that some of them might possibly have been written in living memory. Remember that to all non-players all the tunes sound the same anyway. If all else fails, play the morris dancing card (definitely the joker in the pack): morris dancing and the music that accompanies it is specifically excluded from the legislation, so you just need some bells and cross braces and the problem is solved!
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
The 2003 licensing act Schedule 1, Part2, Clause 11 states: "The provision of entertainment or entertainment facilities is not to be regarded as the provision of regulated entertainment for the purpose of this Act to the extent that it consists of the provision of (a) a performance of Morris dancing or any dancing of a similar nature or the performance of unamplified, live music as an integral part of such a performance, or (b) facilities for enabling persons to take part in entertainment of a description falling within paragraph (a)"
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
Tony asks 'don't any MP's play music?' Maybe the ones who drafted the bill *do*, but need a playlist to have a sneaky practice of the tunes in advance.
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
For a playlist, just submit a list of all the tunes in O'Neill's and
Breathnach's plus all the ones posted here. Everyone can use
the same standard playlist. The inspectors can sit through the
session and have fun trying to make sure all the tunes played
in the session appear in the list of 6,000 or so tunes.
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
It's not actually a "bill" yet, P-K - its only at the "white paper" stage (as explained in my initial post).
This would be followed by what is termed a "green paper", and would then be subsequently drafted as a bill for readings and debate in the House of Commons, before going forward to the House of Lords.
The exemption for Morris dancing in the existing legislation (which someone has already mentioned) only came about as a result of an amendment made in the House of Lords.
Lots of hurdles to jump through before this one becomes law.
However, that's why I think that it's important that we all act now.
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
Yes, this playlist thing amazes me. What about all those tunes with the same name be they jigs reels or H/pipes. And one tune with several names?
Hmm...maybe this is the way round this madness. it's not as if *many* non-players take great interest or have in depth knowledge of this process. (BTW I said not many - there are some people who know their tunes but don't play.)
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
Playing devil's advocate:
I shall note that, IMHO, issues such as the consumption of liquor and disturbing the peace are fairly valid targets for regulation. They affect all of us. willing or no.
On the other hand, I would love to hear someone try to justify any court lumping together a few civilized folk, playing acoustical instruments and singing unamplified in a public house, with their list of perceived "threats" to the common good.
Is it just me, or are the good citizens of Great Britain (and elsewhere, I assume) getting a raw deal? And, if so, then where is the uproar? How is change affected over there in matters such as this?
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
I know we're talking about sessions here but even as regards live performance in general it's still a nonsense.
This would also affect folk clubs, pub gigs etc. Many artists vary their set lists from night to night often depending on their own mood or that of the audience. People will ask for requests and, in not so rare cases, a performer(s) might make a "balls up" of a song and do another instead.
So, preparing a list in advance is highly impracticable.
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
Hey Mix,
Although I'm not in the UK similar idiocy prevails on this side of the pond. I say raise your voices loud in protest but be prepared to loose pubs as a session venue. I say move the sessions to private venues such as social clubs or one's own flat. "Big Brother" as we call them here, and have for some time although the term seems much more appropriate now then any time I remember, would have a difficult time regulating what you do in your own home I would think.
Frankly from what I've been told and have read the music has survived much greater assaults then this over the years.
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
Yep, soon we'll be back to the Revenue men with dogs, trained to sniff out contraband Irish music. It's enough to drive you to drink- or the cheaper option, shoplifting.
Seriously though, it's beginning to seem that we are a threatened minority. Certainly an e-petition would be a start, and worth supporting. Do the drinks industry and the Licensed Victuallers' organisation have a position on this?
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
Who the f-ck comes up with these sh*tty pieces of legislation? There are other more important things to 'fix' in this current climate, such a pack of meddling wasters.
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
Looks like you might be able to get sessions going in gyms in Oz...since they are being hit with a 300% increase in fees for using copyrighted canned music in classes.
Clearly the government is moving towards establishing OFSESH in order to assess the quality of tune delivery. We will be required to not only provide a play list, but also detailed individualised plans of how we're going to ensure that each punter achieves the appropriate level of enjoyment from listening, and possibly moving (e.g., foot tapping). There will also need to be a levelled system of assessing and monitoring this enjoyment, and reports will have to be written on each punter; records will need to be kept and the process will have to be repeated at frequent and regular intervals in order to determine how much enjoyment progress each punter is making over a given period of time.
Results from local sessions will be published in local newspapers and broadcast on radio so that potential punters in the pub catchment areas can make an informed choice about which session to attend based on objective, standardised information.
Musicians will be graded on a 4-point scale: outstanding, good, adequate and inadequate. Those deemed inadequate will be placed under Special Measures and monitored on a 2-weekly basis; paperwork will be scrutinised carefully. If there is no measurable improvement after 6 weeks, instruments will be confiscated and these people will be replaced by a "hit squad" of high-achieving musicians, driven by excellence, funded by a small increase in council tax.
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
Jon Jay - a very good point that you made about folk clubs also being affected - I hadn't thought of that!
Now its very many years since I've been to a folk club, but apart from "booked acts" (which might perhaps be able to provide a "play list"), don't they also have singers's nights or "Come a Ye" where residents and visitors get up and sing a song pretty much at random? There wouldn't be a "play list" for that, would there?
Another thought - not that I've ever been to one, but lots of places have "open mike nights", don't they? They wouldn't be able to provide play lists, either.
Regarding my "concertina group" source, I didn't mention the name of it, but that was deliberate. Suffice to say that they have a lot of members in London, one of whom works in Whitehall.
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
If you really wanted to be paranoid read this about the Metropolitan Police's requirements for licensing of music events http://www.billboard.biz/bbbiz/content_display/industry/e3i561563ef885396db0351484a382407ab
Here's a bit of it:
The Metropolitan Police Form 696 requires details of the type of music and the names, aliases, phone numbers and addresses of performers 14 days in advance as part of any license application. One London council has invoked prevention of terrorism in its licensing guidelines for live events.
How about this though (from a debate in Oct 2003):
Mr. Graham Brady (Altrincham and Sale, West): My constituent Mr. Peach faxed me this morning to say that police last night apparently visited the Bull's Head pub in Mobberley. They were not looking for drugs or guns, but wanted to inform patrons that it would in future be illegal to hold traditional music sessions there. Can we have an urgent debate or statement next week on the implementation of the new music licensing regime?
When the new licensing legislation was being considered, Ministers assured the House that there would not be absurd and excessive regulation in its implementation, but there are worrying signs that the absurdities that we feared are taking place. If that is happening, we need a debate to stop it going any further.
Mr. Hain: The Government are not in favour of absurd regulations on this matter. The hon. Gentleman knows that the issue was carefully and thoroughly debated in Standing Committee. However, I shall certainly refer the episode that he describes to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport. I have no reason to doubt that the facts are as he described, so it is obviously a matter for concern (end of quote)
I see from a web search that the police did not succeed in repressing this errant activity and that sessions continue (English ones that is)
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
Hmmm. Government broadening its power, increasing the sweep of its control over private businesses and over the smallest details of individuals' lives?
Gosh, this sounds familiar. Now what's that charismatic guy's name again?
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
It's all so insane! Have you ever tried to get a driving license here? It is impossible to pass a driving test, as they are more concerned with how many times you check your ^$%&^ mirrors (and believe me, they count this) rather than the fact that you have at least ten years of experience and know more about driving than an 18 year old who has memorized the stupid-assed arcane rules and probably the driving examiner, who would probably turn into a quivering ball of terror if he had to drive in a proper Colorado blizzard over a mountain pass.
It's the same thing. Complete over-regulation for the sake of "public safety" or welfare or the environment or whatever the buzzword of the say us (because it's the government's job to make sure we don't do anything stupid...what?) in a manner that really doesn't fix the thing they are trying to fix and is incredbly stupid and pointless to boot. But makes them feel like they are *doing* something.
Can I go home now? Because the USA is so much less crazy.... aye, right.
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
'the USA is so much less crazy"?
After the past 8 years, no one even knows all the little things that the last president planted in laws. Strange things keep popping up, and people who worked for the last guy seem to have embedded themselves everywhere and now have the single role of sabatoging everthing the new guy is doing.
And in Chicago, we have those cameras on each street corner and from time to time see the surveillance helicopters circling the neighborhood.
I saw the cameras they have in those things. Don't leave the drapes opened if you and the signficant other are ....um... engaged in normally adult activities.... Your bumm could get recorded digitally!
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
They'll be taxing the air you breathe next. I'd like the world to know who's behind all this vicious bombardment of human rights of congregation and expose their villainous paranoid agenda all over the world. As if the house of lords cares if someone plagiarizes Bobby Casey, seriously, who in the world is responsible for this crap?
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
If playing music is a bit like a conversation (humour me here!) then what next? You'll have to submit a list of conversational topics (one week in advance of course) to make sure no undesirable conversational subjects are being covered - and of course they'll also keep records of who you talk to.
Big changes in internet and email monitoring in the UK from today, too.
Probably gives someone a job - but it's all done in the name of Security so it's never likely to be called to account and the expansion of these activities can always be justified.
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
Silver Spear is bang on right about the spread of exasperating, stupid, pointless Government interference in the life of the UK right now. It may be driven by a number of forces.
England is now effectively run to the fingertips by central government and non-elected agencies, partnerships and quangoes. These work on the principle (?) that to be busy on stupid, distressing and wasteful schemes is infinitely better than slowing down or stopping the bandwagon and risking downsizing. They, of course, think their schemes are God's gift to the populace and are tin-eared to feedback. Or else, they are too beholden to higher authority to give preference to feedback over the protocols they have been given.
There is also the syndrome here of the wobbly teacher who dare not tackle the hard kids whose dads are thugs or rich men, but takes it out on normally harmless kids who err, so as to keep up some image of being in charge.
This is why this administration let the City do what it liked, and hassles pub music.
We are living through *very* strange days in Britain. I suspect that before long, PRS checkers and ditzy agency propaganda will be the least of our problems.
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
It's pretty hair-raising when you explain it all in print - it does sound like some sort of Orwellian state. I guess you get used to gradual changes, but there have been some spectacular failures of leadership and support for, frankly, dubious individuals and organisations that have proven themselves to be beyond all moral activity (ie the banks).
Just wondering, is this sort of stuff happening elsewhere say in Europe?
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
I wonder too, Mark, and would also love to know how a sessioneer gets along tuning up in, say, Poland or Czechoslovakia -- the last I heard tell from some parts of Eastern Europe was:
First how about a little more food, a little more gas and electricity, a few less raised voices and tempers, and maybe then we can all address the extremely critical matter of who is playing which folk tune in which tavern and when.
I suspect this also applies to sessioneers in the former Persian Empire...
In the meantime, they can have MY pipes when they pry them from my cold, dead fingers - and I shall keep on playing exactly what I l choose till then. This is assuming I hear no objections from any living composers (the kin of the deceased ones need not apply).
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
Mark Harmer - If my comments on quangoes et cetera sound overwrought, it's probably because that's how I view a particular quango-driven scheme that is getting in motion where I live. I see the scheme as rotten and the publicity claiming support for it as specious and unfounded. (I share these thoughts with the letters page and online facilities of the local paper...)
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
Martin Luther King said something to the effect that when you defend someone elses' rights, you are protecting your own. Everyone here cheered when the government destroyed the rights of pub owners to allow or disallow smoking in their own pub. You dream that the government will stop destroying freedom before they get to you. Well, wake up. All you have done is give the government momentum. You are either next or a little down the road. They are after you, too.
Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
As most of us in the UK will know, sessions in the UK have already been affected by the Licensing Act 2003, which came into force in November 2005. Under the Act, all owners of premises where live music is played are obliged to follow the costly and complex process of applying for a music licence.
Anyone allowing live music to be played in a public place without a licence already risks a maximimum penalty of a £20,000 fine - or a six month prison sentence.
More information here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/6665529.stm
What is ridiculous about this this law is that it applies only to LIVE music (which may well be accoustic, like a session) but not to recorded music, which is of course amplified.
However, the situation is now set to get much worse. Proposals for the extension of the Licencing Act (following pressure from the music industry) have been set out in a new government "white paper".
Under the proposals, all venues where live music is played would be obliged to submit a "play list" to the licensing authority - one week in advance. These venues would of course include session pubs.
Do you know "one week in advance" which tunes you are going to be playing at your local session? I think not!
We need to act NOW, before it is too late.
I would urge every session member living in the UK to write to their MP (For the benefit of session members living in the USA, "MP" is "Member of Parliament" - the equivalent of one of your congressmen).
For those who unfamiliar with the meaning of the term "government white paper", more information here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_paper
As with the "no smoking" legislation (which also affected pubs) it appears that there may possibly different implementations of the law in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, but no details of this have yet been published.
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
Are there examples of this actually being enforced?
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by leoj
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
as the combination of the complexities/expense of the 2005 Licensing Act, the "No Smoking" legislation and the recession is closing pubs to acoustic session musicians at a rapdily escalating rate, I fear that the discussion may prove to be academic ............. round where I live, the only pubs that are flourishing are the "canned music/cheap beer" venues - the rest are transforming themselves into restuarants or simply going out of business.
I agree that MP's should be lobbied to resist further harmful and heavy-handed regulations - but it's most likely not going to make much difference one way or the other in many parts of the UK outside the major urban centres.
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by teetotaller
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
There certainly are, leoj.
Check these links, for instance:
http://www.livemusicforum.co.uk/text/hbbulletin215.htm
http://www.torridge.gov.uk/index.cfm?articleid=9588
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
Also see this link:
http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/newsDetail?year=2008&cat=140.LN0000&topicId=5000510115&type=NEWSITEM&site=140&itemId=5001098702
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
A "play list"? Ridiculous.
This will make this job much harder to do
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/21153
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by Rudall the time
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
Hey Thistle - I just just clicked your link - then I realised what the date was!
But I do assure you that my thread (unlike yours) is no spoof.
I received the information from my local concertina group a couple of days ago - I should probably have posted it then.
Incidentally, that group is in the process of setting up an E-petition as a protest. I'll post the link, as soon as the site goes live.
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
That wasn't my thread.
Sorry, I thought you were at it with the "submitting a play list" bit. In that case this really is a bizarre piece of legislation.
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by Rudall the time
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
What is with the over-regulation of absolutely every freakin' thing in this country???? For f*ck's sake......
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
Beauracracy never ceases to amaze me.For a minute I thought this an April Fool's stunt. Perhaps you could set up a number of playlists and list the tunes in Irish: An Fainne Oir,Tri Taoiseacha etc. Then I suppose they'll pass an amendment that all playlists must be in English.
Surely there must be some MPs who play music.In the States there was Bill Cilinton and Connie Rice. Here in Australia our Minister for Enviroment is Peter Garrett, who used to be front man for Midnight Oil.( Many think he was a better singer than Minister!) . I'd be seeking their assistance, but this is madness. Good luck with it.
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by Tony O'Rourke
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
While Mix is right that we should be vigilant we should note that the link he gives is "Last Updated: Wednesday, 23 May 2007, 12:28 GMT 13:28 UK" - there were discussions on this board at the time, and sessions are still going on. We should beware of creating a scare story just in case pub landlords say "this is all too much trouble - better put a stop to that lot and their tunes". All a pub landlord needs to know is that the tunes are "traditional". Don't over-complicate by even hinting that some of them might possibly have been written in living memory. Remember that to all non-players all the tunes sound the same anyway. If all else fails, play the morris dancing card (definitely the joker in the pack): morris dancing and the music that accompanies it is specifically excluded from the legislation, so you just need some bells and cross braces and the problem is solved!
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by RichardB
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
The 2003 licensing act Schedule 1, Part2, Clause 11 states: "The provision of entertainment or entertainment facilities is not to be regarded as the provision of regulated entertainment for the purpose of this Act to the extent that it consists of the provision of (a) a performance of Morris dancing or any dancing of a similar nature or the performance of unamplified, live music as an integral part of such a performance, or (b) facilities for enabling persons to take part in entertainment of a description falling within paragraph (a)"
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by RichardB
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
Tony asks 'don't any MP's play music?' Maybe the ones who drafted the bill *do*, but need a playlist to have a sneaky practice of the tunes in advance.
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by Here Lyeth
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
For a playlist, just submit a list of all the tunes in O'Neill's and
Breathnach's plus all the ones posted here. Everyone can use
the same standard playlist. The inspectors can sit through the
session and have fun trying to make sure all the tunes played
in the session appear in the list of 6,000 or so tunes.
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by Hup
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
It's not actually a "bill" yet, P-K - its only at the "white paper" stage (as explained in my initial post).
This would be followed by what is termed a "green paper", and would then be subsequently drafted as a bill for readings and debate in the House of Commons, before going forward to the House of Lords.
The exemption for Morris dancing in the existing legislation (which someone has already mentioned) only came about as a result of an amendment made in the House of Lords.
Lots of hurdles to jump through before this one becomes law.
However, that's why I think that it's important that we all act now.
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
Yes, this playlist thing amazes me. What about all those tunes with the same name be they jigs reels or H/pipes. And one tune with several names?
Hmm...maybe this is the way round this madness. it's not as if *many* non-players take great interest or have in depth knowledge of this process. (BTW I said not many - there are some people who know their tunes but don't play.)
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by Rudall the time
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
But we're up against bureaucrats here Thistle, who see everything in terms of commercial music.
.. and see Silver Spear's comment above!
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
Playing devil's advocate:
I shall note that, IMHO, issues such as the consumption of liquor and disturbing the peace are fairly valid targets for regulation. They affect all of us. willing or no.
On the other hand, I would love to hear someone try to justify any court lumping together a few civilized folk, playing acoustical instruments and singing unamplified in a public house, with their list of perceived "threats" to the common good.
Is it just me, or are the good citizens of Great Britain (and elsewhere, I assume) getting a raw deal? And, if so, then where is the uproar? How is change affected over there in matters such as this?
Anybody care to explain this me?
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by Piece
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
I know we're talking about sessions here but even as regards live performance in general it's still a nonsense.
This would also affect folk clubs, pub gigs etc. Many artists vary their set lists from night to night often depending on their own mood or that of the audience. People will ask for requests and, in not so rare cases, a performer(s) might make a "balls up" of a song and do another instead.
So, preparing a list in advance is highly impracticable.
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by Johnny Jay
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
"Where is the uproar", you say Rook. I often speculate on this myself.
Draconian punishments for infringment of the Music Licensing Act ....
... And yet police in the UK are instructed not to prosecute shoplifters if the value of the goods taken is less than £100.
The world has indeed gone made - at least, in the UK it has, anyway....
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
Mix,
I don't disbelieve you when you deny this is an "April fool".
However, some references to the subject other than "I learned this through my concertina group" would be helpful.
Do you have any further information?
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by Johnny Jay
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
Hey Mix,
Although I'm not in the UK similar idiocy prevails on this side of the pond. I say raise your voices loud in protest but be prepared to loose pubs as a session venue. I say move the sessions to private venues such as social clubs or one's own flat. "Big Brother" as we call them here, and have for some time although the term seems much more appropriate now then any time I remember, would have a difficult time regulating what you do in your own home I would think.
Frankly from what I've been told and have read the music has survived much greater assaults then this over the years.
Good luck to all!
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by ejsant
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
Yep, soon we'll be back to the Revenue men with dogs, trained to sniff out contraband Irish music. It's enough to drive you to drink- or the cheaper option, shoplifting.
Seriously though, it's beginning to seem that we are a threatened minority. Certainly an e-petition would be a start, and worth supporting. Do the drinks industry and the Licensed Victuallers' organisation have a position on this?
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by Here Lyeth
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
Who the f-ck comes up with these sh*tty pieces of legislation? There are other more important things to 'fix' in this current climate, such a pack of meddling wasters.
/rant over
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by dee.
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
This is madness!!
Could be usefull though. Maybe we could not tell any singers about it and book up a years worth of reels and polkas with marcia at the grapes.
Could you also get away with submitting a list of 50 tunes, all called "Gan Ainm"?
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by Hurlock
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
Looks like you might be able to get sessions going in gyms in Oz...since they are being hit with a 300% increase in fees for using copyrighted canned music in classes.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/gyms-on-hop-over-music-fees/2007/07/11/1183833598170.html
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by FiddleFancy
The next step
Clearly the government is moving towards establishing OFSESH in order to assess the quality of tune delivery. We will be required to not only provide a play list, but also detailed individualised plans of how we're going to ensure that each punter achieves the appropriate level of enjoyment from listening, and possibly moving (e.g., foot tapping). There will also need to be a levelled system of assessing and monitoring this enjoyment, and reports will have to be written on each punter; records will need to be kept and the process will have to be repeated at frequent and regular intervals in order to determine how much enjoyment progress each punter is making over a given period of time.
Results from local sessions will be published in local newspapers and broadcast on radio so that potential punters in the pub catchment areas can make an informed choice about which session to attend based on objective, standardised information.
Musicians will be graded on a 4-point scale: outstanding, good, adequate and inadequate. Those deemed inadequate will be placed under Special Measures and monitored on a 2-weekly basis; paperwork will be scrutinised carefully. If there is no measurable improvement after 6 weeks, instruments will be confiscated and these people will be replaced by a "hit squad" of high-achieving musicians, driven by excellence, funded by a small increase in council tax.
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by pfft
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
Jon Jay - a very good point that you made about folk clubs also being affected - I hadn't thought of that!
Now its very many years since I've been to a folk club, but apart from "booked acts" (which might perhaps be able to provide a "play list"), don't they also have singers's nights or "Come a Ye" where residents and visitors get up and sing a song pretty much at random? There wouldn't be a "play list" for that, would there?
Another thought - not that I've ever been to one, but lots of places have "open mike nights", don't they? They wouldn't be able to provide play lists, either.
Regarding my "concertina group" source, I didn't mention the name of it, but that was deliberate. Suffice to say that they have a lot of members in London, one of whom works in Whitehall.
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
Not just singers, of course. You get tunes at folk clubs too.
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by Johnny Jay
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
Incidentally, I browsed through the "set lists" from a Rolling Stones tour a few years back and every gig was slightly different.
So, even major bands won't necessarily stick to a rigid set list and may be inclined to vary same depending on the circumstances.
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by Johnny Jay
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
People generally get the politicians they deserve ..
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by the wounded hussar
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
If you really wanted to be paranoid read this about the Metropolitan Police's requirements for licensing of music events http://www.billboard.biz/bbbiz/content_display/industry/e3i561563ef885396db0351484a382407ab
Here's a bit of it:
The Metropolitan Police Form 696 requires details of the type of music and the names, aliases, phone numbers and addresses of performers 14 days in advance as part of any license application. One London council has invoked prevention of terrorism in its licensing guidelines for live events.
How about this though (from a debate in Oct 2003):
Mr. Graham Brady (Altrincham and Sale, West): My constituent Mr. Peach faxed me this morning to say that police last night apparently visited the Bull's Head pub in Mobberley. They were not looking for drugs or guns, but wanted to inform patrons that it would in future be illegal to hold traditional music sessions there. Can we have an urgent debate or statement next week on the implementation of the new music licensing regime?
When the new licensing legislation was being considered, Ministers assured the House that there would not be absurd and excessive regulation in its implementation, but there are worrying signs that the absurdities that we feared are taking place. If that is happening, we need a debate to stop it going any further.
Mr. Hain: The Government are not in favour of absurd regulations on this matter. The hon. Gentleman knows that the issue was carefully and thoroughly debated in Standing Committee. However, I shall certainly refer the episode that he describes to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport. I have no reason to doubt that the facts are as he described, so it is obviously a matter for concern (end of quote)
I see from a web search that the police did not succeed in repressing this errant activity and that sessions continue (English ones that is)
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by RichardB
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
Hmmm. Government broadening its power, increasing the sweep of its control over private businesses and over the smallest details of individuals' lives?
Gosh, this sounds familiar. Now what's that charismatic guy's name again?
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
Be careful. In England they have cameras and microphones everywhere so they know who you are and what your are saying......
Next would be the Music Sedition Act!
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by zippydw
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
It's all so insane! Have you ever tried to get a driving license here? It is impossible to pass a driving test, as they are more concerned with how many times you check your ^$%&^ mirrors (and believe me, they count this) rather than the fact that you have at least ten years of experience and know more about driving than an 18 year old who has memorized the stupid-assed arcane rules and probably the driving examiner, who would probably turn into a quivering ball of terror if he had to drive in a proper Colorado blizzard over a mountain pass.
It's the same thing. Complete over-regulation for the sake of "public safety" or welfare or the environment or whatever the buzzword of the say us (because it's the government's job to make sure we don't do anything stupid...what?) in a manner that really doesn't fix the thing they are trying to fix and is incredbly stupid and pointless to boot. But makes them feel like they are *doing* something.
Can I go home now? Because the USA is so much less crazy.... aye, right.
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
'the USA is so much less crazy"?
After the past 8 years, no one even knows all the little things that the last president planted in laws. Strange things keep popping up, and people who worked for the last guy seem to have embedded themselves everywhere and now have the single role of sabatoging everthing the new guy is doing.
And in Chicago, we have those cameras on each street corner and from time to time see the surveillance helicopters circling the neighborhood.
I saw the cameras they have in those things. Don't leave the drapes opened if you and the signficant other are ....um... engaged in normally adult activities.... Your bumm could get recorded digitally!
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by zippydw
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
They'll be taxing the air you breathe next. I'd like the world to know who's behind all this vicious bombardment of human rights of congregation and expose their villainous paranoid agenda all over the world. As if the house of lords cares if someone plagiarizes Bobby Casey, seriously, who in the world is responsible for this crap?
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by fedorastain
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
If playing music is a bit like a conversation (humour me here!) then what next? You'll have to submit a list of conversational topics (one week in advance of course) to make sure no undesirable conversational subjects are being covered - and of course they'll also keep records of who you talk to.
Big changes in internet and email monitoring in the UK from today, too.
Probably gives someone a job - but it's all done in the name of Security so it's never likely to be called to account and the expansion of these activities can always be justified.
You couldn't make it up!
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by Mark Harmer
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
’Cause I'm the tax man
Yeah, I'm the tax man
And you're working for no one but me
Everything old is new again, innit?
In democracies you gits the gubmint you deserves. Britain deserves New Labour, U.S. deserves the same old Dems.
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
Silver Spear is bang on right about the spread of exasperating, stupid, pointless Government interference in the life of the UK right now. It may be driven by a number of forces.
England is now effectively run to the fingertips by central government and non-elected agencies, partnerships and quangoes. These work on the principle (?) that to be busy on stupid, distressing and wasteful schemes is infinitely better than slowing down or stopping the bandwagon and risking downsizing. They, of course, think their schemes are God's gift to the populace and are tin-eared to feedback. Or else, they are too beholden to higher authority to give preference to feedback over the protocols they have been given.
There is also the syndrome here of the wobbly teacher who dare not tackle the hard kids whose dads are thugs or rich men, but takes it out on normally harmless kids who err, so as to keep up some image of being in charge.
This is why this administration let the City do what it liked, and hassles pub music.
We are living through *very* strange days in Britain. I suspect that before long, PRS checkers and ditzy agency propaganda will be the least of our problems.
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by nicholas
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
...Did I imply, in my post above, that pub music errs?....
That may be true sometimes, but it's not what I meant...
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by nicholas
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
It's pretty hair-raising when you explain it all in print - it does sound like some sort of Orwellian state. I guess you get used to gradual changes, but there have been some spectacular failures of leadership and support for, frankly, dubious individuals and organisations that have proven themselves to be beyond all moral activity (ie the banks).
Just wondering, is this sort of stuff happening elsewhere say in Europe?
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by Mark Harmer
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
I wonder too, Mark, and would also love to know how a sessioneer gets along tuning up in, say, Poland or Czechoslovakia -- the last I heard tell from some parts of Eastern Europe was:
First how about a little more food, a little more gas and electricity, a few less raised voices and tempers, and maybe then we can all address the extremely critical matter of who is playing which folk tune in which tavern and when.
I suspect this also applies to sessioneers in the former Persian Empire...
In the meantime, they can have MY pipes when they pry them from my cold, dead fingers - and I shall keep on playing exactly what I l choose till then. This is assuming I hear no objections from any living composers (the kin of the deceased ones need not apply).
So there.
(insert raspberry here)
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by Piece
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
Mark Harmer - If my comments on quangoes et cetera sound overwrought, it's probably because that's how I view a particular quango-driven scheme that is getting in motion where I live. I see the scheme as rotten and the publicity claiming support for it as specious and unfounded. (I share these thoughts with the letters page and online facilities of the local paper...)
# Posted on April 1st 2009 by nicholas
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
Martin Luther King said something to the effect that when you defend someone elses' rights, you are protecting your own. Everyone here cheered when the government destroyed the rights of pub owners to allow or disallow smoking in their own pub. You dream that the government will stop destroying freedom before they get to you. Well, wake up. All you have done is give the government momentum. You are either next or a little down the road. They are after you, too.
# Posted on April 2nd 2009 by feardearg
Re: Sessions in UK threatened by proposed legislation
Please see:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/21166
# Posted on April 2nd 2009 by Mix O'Lydian