As a regular session player I find it difficult to call out the keys of the tunes I am about to play on the spot. Some guitar players find this a bit annoying and I would agree that as a musician I should know the keys of the tunes I play.Is there any easy way of remembering what key a particular tune is in off the cuff?Or do I need to learn the key at the same time as learning the tune?
The tunes we play don't fall as easily into keys as, say, classical music does. There are modes, variants; it all gets very complicated. Someone's C major is someone else's A dorian (like the Chicago Reel.)
In my opinion, sessioners should be able to play the tunes independently before bringing instruments to a session, and that includes any accompaniment. For new and unfamiliar tunes, a guitarist is much better off listening to the melody rather than listening to someone call out chord changes.
I dont think really its your problem ,its the guitarists problem.
Sometimes folks shout out the keys for me ,its nice of them but if I cannot work it out then I should not be playing that tune.
Its all about listening .
There was a recent thread on this same topic
You can fake it. If you can figure out the tonic center you have most of it there. Then if it has a minor 3rd, say minor. That should give everyone a starting point. The ones who know what they are doing can take it from there. The novice players aren't always helped when you try to get the *exact* key. Like Dave says, it helps to have at least 1 experienced backer to help the new players, & maybe let you in on it too.
I had an Idea it worked for Guitar Players -- and good fun - lol
Who ever is changing shouts a girls name ---
ie / eileen = E Deloras = D Alison = A - etc
Em would be eileen small,, try it its fun ,,Better than shouting E -- and one guitar, playing D another C
lol...
Once the Girls names are Knowen its Easy..
As a guitar player, I don't need the keys called out, I can figure them out in short order 99 percent of the time. Seems that calling the keys out would be a distraction I can do without.
If a guitar player can't figure out the key, they shouldn't be playing.
Celtic Guitar - we may be able to figure out the keys just fine but I look on it as good practice for those lazy melody players. If we need to know the keys, modes, etc why shouldn't they?
lazy melody players? I play with 1 guitar player who never asks me what key a tune is in. She asks, "what are the chords?"
What do I say, 'it depends?' Besides, she always susses it out but she continues to badger me.
I think it's just a game.
I dont call them out so much - its only a laugh really--
But problems start when a new learner or guitar player
drops buy -- Good for a laught = ones you know ,,, But I think,{ If a guitar player can't figure out the key, they shouldn't be playing.by Celtic Guitar} Is the real Answer,,And it dose not have to be Girls names-- ie/
Could be Nuclear Physics or Body parts -- lol..
NOT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUS [ Read botton line ]
Keys
A = ALISON
B = BELINDA
C = CELIA
D = DELORIS
E = ELAINE
F = FLORA
G = GLADIS
NCFA, all those times when people have shouted c*nt at me, what they really meant was play a C chord! Would have saved a lot of hassle if I knew that before now.
When playing with friends, we often go from one tune to the next because we are playing one of our customary sets. When they string together something different, they will sometimes call out the first chord. When I am playing with strangers, unless they have told me what tunes will be in the set, I stop when we stop the first tune and start the next tune, and come in once I am comfortable with the next tune. Musically, it is far better to interrupt the accompaniment at the start of the tune, than in the middle because you are muddling around missing the boat.
Once I had someone call out G for an A dorian tune, and when I asked him afterward what he was doing, he said the tune had one sharp in his tune book, so it must be G, right? So, melodists can often be poor judges of what accompaniment fits their playing!
So am I better off to just change into a new tune without prompting a key at all?Maybe just nodding to tell them I am going to go into a new tune so the accomp can stop and listen and decide him/her self?
David (D)
George (G)
Charles (C)
Arthur Mullard (Am)
Eric Morcambe (Em)
The other keys don't come up so often, but I'm sure he has mnemonics for them. One of his favourite tunes is The Otter's Holt, so he must have one for Bm - 'Bugsy Malone', perhaps.
'The tunes we play don't fall as easily into keys as, say, classical music does. There are modes, variants; it all gets very complicated. Someone's C major is someone else's A dorian (like the Chicago Reel.)'
Are you serious? Do you really think you can sum up the whole of classical music like this? Have you ever listened to any of it? Full of modal shifts and much much more besides. Are you really trying to suggest that ITM is special because of its modal nature? Do you listen to/play other types of music at all?
Be careful, Joel, before you so quickly accuse me of not knowing anything about classical music. Yes, I have listened to a bit of it...let's see...I have performed all the standard orchestral repertoire many, many times over in many, many orchestras since beginning my training nearly 40 years ago. I am well aware of the harmonic components of classical music, I can assure you.
My response was intended to be much more subtle than you inferred. Many people come to this site looking for a quick answer on key centers, and I just wanted to steer the OP away from that trap.
I agree with Celtic Guitar and FIDDLE4--if you can't figure out the key or keys by ear, then you probably shouldn't be trying to play at a session.
When there is someone new at our local session who doesn't know the key or keys, I will try to help them by telling them what key we are playing in.
Anyone who thinks the Chicago reel is in A dorian is just plain wrong. Just dumb enough to be using that silly rule that whatever note the tune finishes on must be it's key.
I've often heard strummers floundering around in A dorian with that tune and the moment you scowl "C" at them it's like you've turned a little light on inside their tiny brains.
Yes LLig good advice - also to let them know that
parts like the pinch of snuff - has 4 key changes - all be to are D major - in different , octaves etc,,
And even then a very Important C major as it tails out
at the end --- And Tunes like The glass or Beer ,,
Should maybe shown to them ,, after they learn the Straight Through G D A Em Am all the way .etc,,Then knowing the tune in your head also helps -- For putting in your own stamps on it ,,,
I Played ITM backing,, with guitar before taking up the Fiddle ,, At least 2 yrs...They would learn faster and better if showen these Simple - things..... jim,,
Greg is sure right in that, while many ITM tunes easily fall into keys (especially when the melody outlines a chord), there are many others which defy easy analysis.
With these tunes, three different guitarists might play three different chords at a certain point in the tune.
For example, there are all the reels which begin with a long series of repeated B's. The chords I have heard guitarists play at Bar 1 of these tunes are (in no particular order) G Major, E minor, and B minor.. in short, every triad that has a B in it.
With such tunes, what exactly is the melody player supposed to call out?
Tune Keys
Tune Keys
As a regular session player I find it difficult to call out the keys of the tunes I am about to play on the spot. Some guitar players find this a bit annoying and I would agree that as a musician I should know the keys of the tunes I play.Is there any easy way of remembering what key a particular tune is in off the cuff?Or do I need to learn the key at the same time as learning the tune?
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by tradmarty
Re: Tune Keys
The tunes we play don't fall as easily into keys as, say, classical music does. There are modes, variants; it all gets very complicated. Someone's C major is someone else's A dorian (like the Chicago Reel.)
In my opinion, sessioners should be able to play the tunes independently before bringing instruments to a session, and that includes any accompaniment. For new and unfamiliar tunes, a guitarist is much better off listening to the melody rather than listening to someone call out chord changes.
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Tune Keys
I dont think really its your problem ,its the guitarists problem.
Sometimes folks shout out the keys for me ,its nice of them but if I cannot work it out then I should not be playing that tune.
Its all about listening .
There was a recent thread on this same topic
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by bazouki dave
Snap Greg! Same ideas at the same time
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Tune Keys
Thanks lads!
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by tradmarty
Re: Tune Keys
You can fake it. If you can figure out the tonic center you have most of it there. Then if it has a minor 3rd, say minor. That should give everyone a starting point. The ones who know what they are doing can take it from there. The novice players aren't always helped when you try to get the *exact* key. Like Dave says, it helps to have at least 1 experienced backer to help the new players, & maybe let you in on it too.
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Tune Keys
I had an Idea it worked for Guitar Players -- and good fun - lol
Who ever is changing shouts a girls name ---
ie / eileen = E Deloras = D Alison = A - etc
Em would be eileen small,, try it its fun ,,Better than shouting E -- and one guitar, playing D another C
lol...
Once the Girls names are Knowen its Easy..
jim,,,
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by FIDDLE4
Re: Tune Keys
Eileen, Dolores and Alison - how tame
Round this way it is sweary words and body parts!
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Tune Keys
As a guitar player, I don't need the keys called out, I can figure them out in short order 99 percent of the time. Seems that calling the keys out would be a distraction I can do without.
If a guitar player can't figure out the key, they shouldn't be playing.
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by Celtic Guitar
Re: Tune Keys
Personally I think Euphemia would be good for E
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Tune Keys
Celtic Guitar - we may be able to figure out the keys just fine but I look on it as good practice for those lazy melody players. If we need to know the keys, modes, etc why shouldn't they?
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Tune Keys
I guess I won't be at the session if you're playing many tunes in *A*
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Tune Keys
It is not the A tunes you would need to worry about - it is the ones in C!
(We don't tend to do this in the Dundee session but there are folk who have taken it up in Glasgow and Edinburgh - it does help identify the key)
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Tune Keys
lazy melody players? I play with 1 guitar player who never asks me what key a tune is in. She asks, "what are the chords?"
What do I say, 'it depends?' Besides, she always susses it out but she continues to badger me.
I think it's just a game.
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by Ben Steen
*
On 2nd thought I wish I could come by. I didn't realize you actually do call them out. ;)
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Tune Keys
I dont call them out so much - its only a laugh really--
But problems start when a new learner or guitar player
drops buy -- Good for a laught = ones you know ,,, But I think,{ If a guitar player can't figure out the key, they shouldn't be playing.by Celtic Guitar} Is the real Answer,,And it dose not have to be Girls names-- ie/
Could be Nuclear Physics or Body parts -- lol..
NOT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUS [ Read botton line ]
Keys
A = ALISON
B = BELINDA
C = CELIA
D = DELORIS
E = ELAINE
F = FLORA
G = GLADIS
MINOR KEY BY SAYING '' SMALL '' AFTER IT - IE /
Em = Elain Small ===============
WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU STOP SMOKING - LOL..
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by FIDDLE4
Re: Tune Keys
What would you say for F#m?
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Tune Keys
FLORA sharp Small - LOL.
jim,,, Anyone got a fag ,,,,
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by FIDDLE4
R
Bloody hell ! usually we dont see that much round here
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Tune Keys
NCFA, all those times when people have shouted c*nt at me, what they really meant was play a C chord! Would have saved a lot of hassle if I knew that before now.
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by strayaway
Re: Tune Keys
When playing with friends, we often go from one tune to the next because we are playing one of our customary sets. When they string together something different, they will sometimes call out the first chord. When I am playing with strangers, unless they have told me what tunes will be in the set, I stop when we stop the first tune and start the next tune, and come in once I am comfortable with the next tune. Musically, it is far better to interrupt the accompaniment at the start of the tune, than in the middle because you are muddling around missing the boat.
Once I had someone call out G for an A dorian tune, and when I asked him afterward what he was doing, he said the tune had one sharp in his tune book, so it must be G, right? So, melodists can often be poor judges of what accompaniment fits their playing!
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by AlBrown
Lets not go there Al
I can understand that mistake but shouting D and going into Emaj?
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Tune Keys
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: Tune Keys
I know strayaway. & I'd rather not say what I thought people were saying about me everytime we played a tune in D.
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Tune Keys
So am I better off to just change into a new tune without prompting a key at all?Maybe just nodding to tell them I am going to go into a new tune so the accomp can stop and listen and decide him/her self?
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by tradmarty
Re: Tune Keys
yep. (or a short sharp "hup" instead of the nod)
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by ...
Re: Tune Keys
Cool
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by tradmarty
Bookmark!
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/21121/comments#comment439768
in case you have a case of déjà vu on some future thread.
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Tune Keys
Banjo Mick O'Connor uses:
David (D)
George (G)
Charles (C)
Arthur Mullard (Am)
Eric Morcambe (Em)
The other keys don't come up so often, but I'm sure he has mnemonics for them. One of his favourite tunes is The Otter's Holt, so he must have one for Bm - 'Bugsy Malone', perhaps.
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Tune Keys
"yep. (or a short sharp "hup" instead of the nod)" saith Llig.
You're just trying to get me to swallow the bloody harmonica now, aren't you?
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: Tune Keys
Yep - ragaman
Thats the Idea - good fun - As, there is no ITM
standards approved, -- not yet - { I HOPE } - lol..
jim,,
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by FIDDLE4
Re: Tune Keys
'The tunes we play don't fall as easily into keys as, say, classical music does. There are modes, variants; it all gets very complicated. Someone's C major is someone else's A dorian (like the Chicago Reel.)'
Are you serious? Do you really think you can sum up the whole of classical music like this? Have you ever listened to any of it? Full of modal shifts and much much more besides. Are you really trying to suggest that ITM is special because of its modal nature? Do you listen to/play other types of music at all?
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by McDermott
Re: Tune Keys
Be careful, Joel, before you so quickly accuse me of not knowing anything about classical music. Yes, I have listened to a bit of it...let's see...I have performed all the standard orchestral repertoire many, many times over in many, many orchestras since beginning my training nearly 40 years ago. I am well aware of the harmonic components of classical music, I can assure you.
My response was intended to be much more subtle than you inferred. Many people come to this site looking for a quick answer on key centers, and I just wanted to steer the OP away from that trap.
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Tune Keys
That's told me I guess . . .
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by McDermott
Re: Tune Keys
I agree with Celtic Guitar and FIDDLE4--if you can't figure out the key or keys by ear, then you probably shouldn't be trying to play at a session.
When there is someone new at our local session who doesn't know the key or keys, I will try to help them by telling them what key we are playing in.
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: Tune Keys
Anyone who thinks the Chicago reel is in A dorian is just plain wrong. Just dumb enough to be using that silly rule that whatever note the tune finishes on must be it's key.
I've often heard strummers floundering around in A dorian with that tune and the moment you scowl "C" at them it's like you've turned a little light on inside their tiny brains.
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by ...
Re: Tune Keys
Yes LLig good advice - also to let them know that
parts like the pinch of snuff - has 4 key changes - all be to are D major - in different , octaves etc,,
And even then a very Important C major as it tails out
at the end --- And Tunes like The glass or Beer ,,
Should maybe shown to them ,, after they learn the Straight Through G D A Em Am all the way .etc,,Then knowing the tune in your head also helps -- For putting in your own stamps on it ,,,
I Played ITM backing,, with guitar before taking up the Fiddle ,, At least 2 yrs...They would learn faster and better if showen these Simple - things..... jim,,
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by FIDDLE4
Re: Tune Keys
I think that really good guitar players never need shown. But that it's OK to show some guitar players, then they might start to get quite good.
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by ...
Re: Tune Keys
Greg is sure right in that, while many ITM tunes easily fall into keys (especially when the melody outlines a chord), there are many others which defy easy analysis.
With these tunes, three different guitarists might play three different chords at a certain point in the tune.
For example, there are all the reels which begin with a long series of repeated B's. The chords I have heard guitarists play at Bar 1 of these tunes are (in no particular order) G Major, E minor, and B minor.. in short, every triad that has a B in it.
With such tunes, what exactly is the melody player supposed to call out?
# Posted on March 31st 2009 by Richard D Cook
Re: Tune Keys
Oh, when a tosser guitarist shows up, it's best to launch into Slip Jigs and enjoy the hapless attempts at figuring out where the "1" is.
# Posted on March 31st 2009 by Richard D Cook