We have of late had a great deal of discussion regarding the need or desire for session accompanists (chordal, rhythmic or otherwise) to join in with tunes with which they may, or (most importantly) may not be familiar.
I have also noticed a similar tendency amongst melody players.
A case in point, which has happened on more than one occasion; a player coming to our session for the first time joins in with the first set of tunes, and appears to play them rather competently. Which is fine, except that these particular tunes are all written by one of our session members, and are therefore highly unlikely to have been known to the new player in advance.
Now I known that some really good players can hear a tune once, and then be able to play it with confidence, whilst others can amazingly perform a similar feat in real-time. But why the same desire by these players to join in with tunes which are clearly unknown to them? Or is this the method by which all tunes are initially learned?
I've noticed the same thing as you Rick. I play some "F" reels and one chap likes to play along with them -on a D Melodeon!There's a fiddler who occasionally turns up and just fiddles away playing something that bears no resemblance to the tune/s. And I've seen countless players just "fake it" for want of a better description. In my case what I do is offer them some sheet music,or perhaps an audio of the tune, or some advice, but some people can and do take offence at unsolicited advice.Incidentally, I've been observing this phenomena for a number of years now and no, these people are clearly not learning anything.
I like the way you phrase the question. You’ve pointed out that the subject individual cannot possibly know the tune, yet attempts to play.
I would agree with some of the preceding comments…yes, people do love to play music and find it difficult to stay still. I will also say it is extremely enjoyable when a tune or set takes an unexpected turn for the best.
To the contrary, however, it is extremely annoying when an individual or group consistently takes over a tune or set they do not understand and transforms it/them to a tune/set they are comfortable with. Not only do I think it is poor educate, but it is bad listening and completely inartistic. Fortunately, for me, this frustration does not manifest itself too often. I’m probably the offending party more than not. Sorry…but I hope I understand.
The person who can learn the tune in one listen _is_ "learning the feckin' tune" before they play it. It's not an outrageously uncommon ability, I know a few people who can do it. It's just about experience.
If i am not familiar with a tune, I listento it the first time through and then start to play it the next time through. I may play it softly at first to figure out how I want to play the rhthym, but generally, I feel pretty confident that I can figure out most tunes after listening for a short time.
I am with Rick here. If one doesn't know the tune, either sit it out entirely or play so quietly that nobody hears.
Occasoinally a friend comes to our sessions playing a non-whistle instrument. When the tune is unknown to him, he pulls out the whistle (out of tune, by the way) and tries to watch my fingers. It always sounds awful and I just stop playing (I generally like one whistle at a time anyway). He seems to be put out that I stopped while he was learning the tune. Oh well.
Or others (I won't name the instrument) who strum away at chords thru the tune they don't know, and at the end ask what key it is in!! Or they start out strumming to a tune after someone tells them the key "Eminor" but continue to play the Eminor when the set moves to the next tune (Dmajor)!
Some contributors have worked out techniques that they can apply (they think) no matter what tune is played. That normally sucks, too.
I could go on. I wish people would not mess up tunes by joining in tunes they don't know.
Sure, if they make a mess of it, tell them to stop mucking around. Bt if the person joining in is playing them "rather competently" (Rick's words), what's the problem?
Well experienced players--melody and backers--can do this. It's not rocket surgery. If you don't like it, regardless of how well they manage it, ask them to stop.
So, if I understand correctly, the answer to "is this the method by which (all) tunes are initially learned?" is yes, if the player is experienced and/or competent?
I should point out that I have less objection to the action of these competent players than is perhaps being inferred by some of the responses here. It is also quite common amongst regular players for newly introduced tunes to be played through 4/5 times (as opposed to the usual 2/3) in order to encourage people to join in, and to speed the learning process. The difference in this case is that these tunes are actively being "taught".
Well, the 'why the desire...' bit sounded to me like a rhetorical question, indicating your dislike of said behaviour. Me, I like to play music, its as simple as that. Maybe my first comment was a bit harsh, but see if you recognise yourself in this:
(stops playing) "excuse me sir, I noticed you snapping your fingers, do you actually KNOW the tune?"
In players who can pick up a tune on the fly, joining in on an unfamiliar tune probably means they like the tune and want to learn it. No biggee. For me, with an original tune, I'd take it as a complement that they like the tune.
I pick up tunes on the fly at sessions, but usually no more than 2 or maybe 3 tunes on any given night. And often only 1 tune. I don't ask first if it's an original tune or not--a good tune is a good tune.
Will - "joining in on an unfamiliar tune probably means they like the tune and want to learn it. No biggee. For me, with an original tune, I'd take it as a complement that they like the tune."
You first qualify this with "In players who can pick up a tune on the fly". What about the rest. Are they not allowed to like the tune and want to learn it? Would you be as equally complemented if they did?
I can't tell what Rick is getting at. But I'll happily answer what I think his last question was. (The only reason I qualified my post above, Rick, was because in your original post you mentioned competent players picking up tunes on the fly. Some people here on the mustard board vehemently object to such "noodling." Personally, I don't, especially when someone gets the tune, rather than just faking along and missing half the melody. For the latter, I'll gladly offer to give them the tune in private.)
It's always a treat when anyone takes interest in an original tune. If someone can't pick up the tune on the fly, and if the session was laid back enough, and if the person was up for it, I'd offer to teach it phrase by phrase on the spot. Otherwise I'd gladly sit in a kitchen and go through the tune till they have it.
I've done this sort of thing a fair amount. Bang Your Frog on the Sofa, Letting the Ranch Go Fallow, Dreary Plains of Toil--I've often been asked to teach these tunes of mine to players of all abilities. Great craic, and it's wonderful when people like your tunes.
So I'm not sure what the issue is here. Rick, what's burning a hole in your psyche about this "compulsion to join in"?
I also don't see what difference it makes whether the tune is original or not. If it's a new tune to the person learning it, it's a new tune. Sure it's easier to pick up a tune that you've heard when playing out. But I've learned plenty of traditional tunes the first time I've heard them, often not having a clue whether they were old trad or new original. As I said above, who cares? A good tune is a good tune.
Joel I have listened to Rick's playing on Myspace and I like his guitar playing (strong Bach influence) but that is hardly an argument that makes Will wrong. Some original tunes written in the trad style are relatively easy to pick up on the fly for those who are experienced and good at that sort of thing there's nothing bad about it.
As for those who can't, the appropriate way is to do what Will does and teach the tune later or send an mp3 on to that person. And yes I would be chuffed if anyone of any ability ever wanted to learn a tune that I had written.
It sounds to me as though you have been beaten at your own game ... and now you're whining about it. I mean, playing some obscure FIRST set and then complaining that newbies/strangers are joining in, in your words "competently" ... as if they shouldn't. They might not know these are obscure tunes that they shouldn't know ... and not wanting to appear ignorant of what commonsense might tell them is a warm-up set ... they feel obligated to join in.
I mean they probably can't comprehend that you don't want them to join in the opening set of the session. Doesn't sound very welcoming to me (but what would I know).
I mean, if they can't join in they're slagged for being shoite, and if they do join in and do an alright job they're slagged for being able to play it competently. They can't win. Sigh!
Different types of session, different levels of ability - the world's such a diverse place! If you are fortunate to go to a session where the players are your friends then you just share tunes and join in how you think fit. If people didn't like it they wouldn't keep turning up.
I can often play a tune after the first time it is played- depends on the tune and it doesn't matter if it is an old one I don't know or an original-just depends on the tune.I can't do this with say a Liz Carroll tune- I can listen to those a hundred times and still be scratching my head over some parts of it. But lots of tunes are just very predictable- once they get going I just know where they are going to end up....
So often I'll play tunes I've never played before at a session- I'll listen the first time through, play quietly the second and if it's a go, by the third time I'm fine. The interesting thing about this though is that this tune only resides in my short-term memory or something and it will be totally gone in a short while. To really learn the tune I'll have to play it a bunch of times til it's made its way into my long-term memory.
But anyway, some of us are able to do this- we're all wired differently- so unless the players in question are sawing or tooting away loudly oblivious to the actual tune,they may just be the sort that can learn a tune well enough after hearing it once.
There's playing the parts you can suss out, quitely and unobtrusively, and then there is chucking a big soggy lump of noodles at it. Two different things altogether. Sounds like Rick is describing the former, not the latter, in which case, no harm no foul.
This requires skill and discretion to pull off properly. It's a fine line between quietly sussing and barfing Ramen.
If you are an experienced melody player, you will probably be able to join in with a tune fairly accurately after hearing it once though, or maybe even "realtime" - providing that the tune is a reasonably straightforward one. If the tune is difficult and complex, it would probably be better to sit it out.
Afterwards, you can ask the name of it, go away and learn it - then play it next time.
Backing a tune that you've never heard before on guitar is an entirely different matter. Certainly, there are some guitarists who can do this really well - even in "real time".
However, such guitarists are as rare as hens' teeth ...
- .. the majority of 'em just make a pig's ear of it ...
I am absolutely against 'learning on the fly' unless you know everyone at the session well and they are totally aware of their limitations. Simply because although experienced players can often do it relatively well it sends out the wrong signals to those who can't. There are few things more weakening in session life than someone who things they can 'jam' along but actually really can't. I would sooner wait till I get home to learn a tune I like than risk encouraging one of the most hellish session sins.
I don't know Bogman- not sure why it would weaken the session unless the people doing this were totally hacking away loudly or something, and they likely would play this way whether they knew the tune or not. It also depends on the instrument- lots easier to play unobtrusively on a tune you don't know on a fiddle than on a whistle or pipes or something- I don't think I would try it on those. Besides, people I play with often force me to play a tune I don't know at a gig- they've all been playing together lots longer than I've even been playing and their tune reportoire is extensive- we'll play a dance or whatever and they tend to make up the sets on the fly- I'll be like- "hey, I don't know that one" and they just sorta look at me and say "oh, it's easy, you'll figure it out right away"- and as long as there is another fiddle player it works- I just listen the first time thru and join in the second time- and they just say-"see, no problem".........so doing this at just a session seems pretty tame to me given this........ can't see why it would hurt...... I guess I'm pretty accepting of other people and their foibles and hope they will be accepting of me and mine, which are extensive.....
Some people here appear to be taking the wrong end of the fiddle-stick.
Regarding the example I quoted, the tunes being played were neither written or even started by myself, nor were they by any means obscure or unfamiliar to our regular players. Also, I have little or no objection to hearing any tune being played by any player in a complementary manner [see 3) below], rather the opposite in fact.
I think Bogman just hit a nail...
Nobody here appears to dispute the observation that the desire to join in and play (with unfamiliar tunes) is indeed shared by all players of any ability, and is not just limited to beginners or accompanists. This desire also appears to stem from the same reasons in many cases (as stated in previous posts).
How do we then reconcile the actions of those experienced players who can and indeed do choose to join in on the fly, with advice advocated to lesser mortals that knowledge of the tune and the music is of primary requisite for participation?
What exactly is this required knowledge of the music? Is it :-
1) The ability to listen to tunes;
- recognize melodic, rhythmic & harmonic structure
2) The ability to play/accompany tunes;
- recall & play melody with suitable articulation and ornamentation (feel).
- and/or harmonize/improvise melody using appropriate rhythm
3) The ability to listen to and play/accompany tunes on the fly;
- perform 1 & 2 above in real-time
Incidentally, I guess the reason guitarists have it tough is because they are expected to work to level 3 from the off, and even then the choice of harmony can be extremely subjective.
"How do we then reconcile the actions of those experienced players who can and indeed do choose to join in on the fly, with advice advocated to lesser mortals that knowledge of the tune and the music is of primary requisite for participation?"
Easy: if you can learn a tune on the fly, then do. If you can't, then don't try. Learn it off a recording or from another player in your own time before joining in at session.
There is a guy around these parts who sits in at sessions with a box full of 'top of the range harmonicas'. All different keys. He leaves the box open on the table and enquires as to the key of the tune you are playing. Then with a great deal of sucking, blowing and head bobbing he joins in with every tune, occasionally asking the key and swapping harmonicas as required. Thing is, he can't play a poxy note. Couldn't even play a tune on his own. Strange thing is, he is a very nice intelligent fellow in his own right.
Um, Rick, you're mixing advice from different people here. Not all of us think it's a mortal sin to learn tunes on the fly. Some of us even believe that a nice easy-going session is a reasonable place to do this, and even a good way to learn how to do this.
It also depends a lot on the tone of the session. For instance:
There are two weekly sessions in my town. One of them is laid back, good craic, not overly picky about "perfecting" the music. So it's not a session foul if someone launches into a tune they're still in the throes of learning and they hiccup and stumble along like a besotted college kid on his first binge.
The other session is also good craic, but the musical expectations are a bit higher. Play tunes you know well, keep the set going with interesting transitions, etc.
At the first session, anyone is welcome to pick up tunes on the fly, or just try their hand at doing so even if they struggle at it (because they need more experience at it).
At the second session, the players who CAN pick up tunes on the fly sometimes do, and the players who aren't comfortable picking up tunes on the fly don't try. The latter usually ask about the tune and then learn it later, one-on-one, in someone's kitchen.
Yep, I often recommend that a player practice learning tunes on the fly at home, from recordings or the radio, before trying it at a session. That's how I learned to do it.
And if you're visiting a session that frowns on learning tunes on the fly, even if you're quick at it, then be a good sport and sit out tunes you don't know. (You can still learn a few tunes, by lilting them in your head. And no one else will be the wiser.)
Well put Will. There can never be a definitive answer to this type of question because all sessions are different. My regular session has an average of 4 - 6 and only occasionally are there 8 or more so someone farting about is pretty obvious. I don't mind playing on the edge of stuff you just about know but generally hate when folk play stuff they haven't even heard before. Bigger sessions are obviously different as it's quite easy to get lost in the general noise. Personally I don't enjoy that type of session but that's only personal choice, some folk do and nothing wrong with that.
If you don't want people joining in with your original tunes, even when they have the enviable abiltiy to pick them up on the fly and play them competently, shouldn't you be playing them in your own kitchen, or in a recording study, or in a concert??? I guess I don't understand the issue here--of course people at a session will join in.........now, objecting to noodling, that I understand.
Will - "Not all of us think it's a mortal sin to learn tunes on the fly"
...and neither would I. The point I was [apparently] feebly attempting to make was the experienced and highly capable players have the exact same desire to join in with unfamiliar tunes as would a complete novice, and indeed everyone of any capability in-between.
Mix - "Rally drivers sometimes steer with their arms crossed - not something that you would recommend a learner to do!"
Not something I would recommend an experienced driver/player to do either!
Rick, I hate to champion the obvious here, but isn't that why musicians bring their instruments to sessions--to play them? Don't sessions exist because people share a "compulsion to join in with a tune?"
So what's your point? Is there something wrong with that? Or perhaps some aspect that's mystifying you?
Rick, I am not trying to pick a fight, I just still don't understand your point. Everyone wants to join in on the fun, that is human nature, we all want to take part, regardless of ability. To me, that is just the way things are. Now, if you want to question whether or not everyone SHOULD join in, regardless of ability, or of knowledge, well in my opinion, there is an issue to discuss.....
I've modified my previous response (a bit of editing)
Welcome to The Session
The exchange* of tunes (& the compulsion to join in) is what keeps traditional Irish music alive. This website is one way of passing on jigs, reels and other dance tunes. It's not rocket surgery.
Some of the tunes are well known {dc|BGG DGG|BGB dcB|cAA EAA|cAc edc|}, and some are more obscure {CEG GAB|Afe dec|AGE DEF||GAG FGA|cAG FDC|D3 }. It's this mixture of the familiar [ Again ... (and I do tire of saying it)
you have a recording? why do you need the dots?] and the new < Why can't you just *randomly* play stuff from your own creativity !!! and the other guys just jump in and play on the same scales ?*%! and stuff as you? > that makes for a good session**.
* rule #1 for an accompanist/newbie is to [sic] "learn the feckin' tune" before playing a note.
**tis true....but doesn't address the point.
If you have any questions about the music, you should start a discussion.
If you have any questions about the site, try reading the Frequently Asked Questions.
If you still can't find an answer to your query, drop it or start your own website ...
I guess I should make some attempt at closure here:-
Let me reiterate: "I have little or no objection to hearing any tune being played by any player in a complementary manner, rather the opposite in fact."
Ours is a very liberal and fun session, and we welcome players of any ability. Some players may have little or no session experience; if I could teach just one thing in a evening, then that would be the importance of listening - of course, most people learn by example.
The compulsion to join in with a tune.
The compulsion to join in with a tune.
We have of late had a great deal of discussion regarding the need or desire for session accompanists (chordal, rhythmic or otherwise) to join in with tunes with which they may, or (most importantly) may not be familiar.
I have also noticed a similar tendency amongst melody players.
A case in point, which has happened on more than one occasion; a player coming to our session for the first time joins in with the first set of tunes, and appears to play them rather competently. Which is fine, except that these particular tunes are all written by one of our session members, and are therefore highly unlikely to have been known to the new player in advance.
Now I known that some really good players can hear a tune once, and then be able to play it with confidence, whilst others can amazingly perform a similar feat in real-time. But why the same desire by these players to join in with tunes which are clearly unknown to them? Or is this the method by which all tunes are initially learned?
# Posted on March 28th 2009 by Rick Payman
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
because they like playing music? are your sessions lead by this tiny geezer with a stamp mustache?
# Posted on March 28th 2009 by lantalooon
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
How else does one learn?
# Posted on March 28th 2009 by Ebor_fiddler
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
1. Your tunewriter should stop writing other peoples' tunes, or:
2. Yeah, their ears are that good. So what? Don't you want people learning your tunes?
# Posted on March 28th 2009 by reenactor
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
I've noticed the same thing as you Rick. I play some "F" reels and one chap likes to play along with them -on a D Melodeon!There's a fiddler who occasionally turns up and just fiddles away playing something that bears no resemblance to the tune/s. And I've seen countless players just "fake it" for want of a better description. In my case what I do is offer them some sheet music,or perhaps an audio of the tune, or some advice, but some people can and do take offence at unsolicited advice.Incidentally, I've been observing this phenomena for a number of years now and no, these people are clearly not learning anything.
# Posted on March 28th 2009 by Tony O'Rourke
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
1) "because they like playing music?"
2) "How else does one learn?"
3) "Yeah, their ears are that good."
So how come rule #1 for an accompanist/newbie is to [sic] "learn the feckin' tune" before playing a note?
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by Rick Payman
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
Rick,
I like the way you phrase the question. You’ve pointed out that the subject individual cannot possibly know the tune, yet attempts to play.
I would agree with some of the preceding comments…yes, people do love to play music and find it difficult to stay still. I will also say it is extremely enjoyable when a tune or set takes an unexpected turn for the best.
To the contrary, however, it is extremely annoying when an individual or group consistently takes over a tune or set they do not understand and transforms it/them to a tune/set they are comfortable with. Not only do I think it is poor educate, but it is bad listening and completely inartistic. Fortunately, for me, this frustration does not manifest itself too often. I’m probably the offending party more than not. Sorry…but I hope I understand.
Petey
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by Pete D
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
The person who can learn the tune in one listen _is_ "learning the feckin' tune" before they play it. It's not an outrageously uncommon ability, I know a few people who can do it. It's just about experience.
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by Hammurabi Breathnach
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
tis true....but doesn't address the point.
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by Pete D
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
If i am not familiar with a tune, I listento it the first time through and then start to play it the next time through. I may play it softly at first to figure out how I want to play the rhthym, but generally, I feel pretty confident that I can figure out most tunes after listening for a short time.
If I can't, I don't play!
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by Celtic Guitar
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
I am with Rick here. If one doesn't know the tune, either sit it out entirely or play so quietly that nobody hears.
Occasoinally a friend comes to our sessions playing a non-whistle instrument. When the tune is unknown to him, he pulls out the whistle (out of tune, by the way) and tries to watch my fingers. It always sounds awful and I just stop playing (I generally like one whistle at a time anyway). He seems to be put out that I stopped while he was learning the tune. Oh well.
Or others (I won't name the instrument) who strum away at chords thru the tune they don't know, and at the end ask what key it is in!! Or they start out strumming to a tune after someone tells them the key "Eminor" but continue to play the Eminor when the set moves to the next tune (Dmajor)!
Some contributors have worked out techniques that they can apply (they think) no matter what tune is played. That normally sucks, too.
I could go on. I wish people would not mess up tunes by joining in tunes they don't know.
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by feardearg
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
"So how come rule #1 for an accompanist/newbie is to [sic] "learn the feckin' tune" before playing a note?"
Well if you can pull it off, you're not a newbie. That rule is there for a reason though.
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by lantalooon
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
Sure, if they make a mess of it, tell them to stop mucking around. Bt if the person joining in is playing them "rather competently" (Rick's words), what's the problem?
Well experienced players--melody and backers--can do this. It's not rocket surgery. If you don't like it, regardless of how well they manage it, ask them to stop.
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
Will - the question remains the same; "why the same desire by these players to join in with tunes which are clearly unknown to them?"
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by Rick Payman
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
So, if I understand correctly, the answer to "is this the method by which (all) tunes are initially learned?" is yes, if the player is experienced and/or competent?
I should point out that I have less objection to the action of these competent players than is perhaps being inferred by some of the responses here. It is also quite common amongst regular players for newly introduced tunes to be played through 4/5 times (as opposed to the usual 2/3) in order to encourage people to join in, and to speed the learning process. The difference in this case is that these tunes are actively being "taught".
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by Rick Payman
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
Well, the 'why the desire...' bit sounded to me like a rhetorical question, indicating your dislike of said behaviour. Me, I like to play music, its as simple as that. Maybe my first comment was a bit harsh, but see if you recognise yourself in this:
(stops playing) "excuse me sir, I noticed you snapping your fingers, do you actually KNOW the tune?"
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by lantalooon
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
In players who can pick up a tune on the fly, joining in on an unfamiliar tune probably means they like the tune and want to learn it. No biggee. For me, with an original tune, I'd take it as a complement that they like the tune.
I pick up tunes on the fly at sessions, but usually no more than 2 or maybe 3 tunes on any given night. And often only 1 tune. I don't ask first if it's an original tune or not--a good tune is a good tune.
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
Most certainly lantalooon, if said snapping was not in time or feel.
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by Rick Payman
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
Will - "joining in on an unfamiliar tune probably means they like the tune and want to learn it. No biggee. For me, with an original tune, I'd take it as a complement that they like the tune."
You first qualify this with "In players who can pick up a tune on the fly". What about the rest. Are they not allowed to like the tune and want to learn it? Would you be as equally complemented if they did?
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by Rick Payman
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
[Would you be as equally complemented if they did?] - did join in, that is.
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by Rick Payman
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
Rick is a seriously good musician. Argue with him at your peril.
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by Joel McDermott
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
So who's arguing?
I can't tell what Rick is getting at. But I'll happily answer what I think his last question was. (The only reason I qualified my post above, Rick, was because in your original post you mentioned competent players picking up tunes on the fly. Some people here on the mustard board vehemently object to such "noodling." Personally, I don't, especially when someone gets the tune, rather than just faking along and missing half the melody. For the latter, I'll gladly offer to give them the tune in private.)
It's always a treat when anyone takes interest in an original tune. If someone can't pick up the tune on the fly, and if the session was laid back enough, and if the person was up for it, I'd offer to teach it phrase by phrase on the spot. Otherwise I'd gladly sit in a kitchen and go through the tune till they have it.
I've done this sort of thing a fair amount. Bang Your Frog on the Sofa, Letting the Ranch Go Fallow, Dreary Plains of Toil--I've often been asked to teach these tunes of mine to players of all abilities. Great craic, and it's wonderful when people like your tunes.
So I'm not sure what the issue is here. Rick, what's burning a hole in your psyche about this "compulsion to join in"?
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
I also don't see what difference it makes whether the tune is original or not. If it's a new tune to the person learning it, it's a new tune. Sure it's easier to pick up a tune that you've heard when playing out. But I've learned plenty of traditional tunes the first time I've heard them, often not having a clue whether they were old trad or new original. As I said above, who cares? A good tune is a good tune.
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
Joel I have listened to Rick's playing on Myspace and I like his guitar playing (strong Bach influence) but that is hardly an argument that makes Will wrong. Some original tunes written in the trad style are relatively easy to pick up on the fly for those who are experienced and good at that sort of thing there's nothing bad about it.
As for those who can't, the appropriate way is to do what Will does and teach the tune later or send an mp3 on to that person. And yes I would be chuffed if anyone of any ability ever wanted to learn a tune that I had written.
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by Donough
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
It sounds to me as though you have been beaten at your own game ... and now you're whining about it. I mean, playing some obscure FIRST set and then complaining that newbies/strangers are joining in, in your words "competently" ... as if they shouldn't. They might not know these are obscure tunes that they shouldn't know ... and not wanting to appear ignorant of what commonsense might tell them is a warm-up set ... they feel obligated to join in.
I mean they probably can't comprehend that you don't want them to join in the opening set of the session. Doesn't sound very welcoming to me (but what would I know).
I mean, if they can't join in they're slagged for being shoite, and if they do join in and do an alright job they're slagged for being able to play it competently. They can't win. Sigh!
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by Clear Drops
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
It's a confidence thing
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by mcknowall
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
Different types of session, different levels of ability - the world's such a diverse place! If you are fortunate to go to a session where the players are your friends then you just share tunes and join in how you think fit. If people didn't like it they wouldn't keep turning up.
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by RichardB
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
I can often play a tune after the first time it is played- depends on the tune and it doesn't matter if it is an old one I don't know or an original-just depends on the tune.I can't do this with say a Liz Carroll tune- I can listen to those a hundred times and still be scratching my head over some parts of it. But lots of tunes are just very predictable- once they get going I just know where they are going to end up....
So often I'll play tunes I've never played before at a session- I'll listen the first time through, play quietly the second and if it's a go, by the third time I'm fine. The interesting thing about this though is that this tune only resides in my short-term memory or something and it will be totally gone in a short while. To really learn the tune I'll have to play it a bunch of times til it's made its way into my long-term memory.
But anyway, some of us are able to do this- we're all wired differently- so unless the players in question are sawing or tooting away loudly oblivious to the actual tune,they may just be the sort that can learn a tune well enough after hearing it once.
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by fiddlinfarmer
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
There's playing the parts you can suss out, quitely and unobtrusively, and then there is chucking a big soggy lump of noodles at it. Two different things altogether. Sounds like Rick is describing the former, not the latter, in which case, no harm no foul.
This requires skill and discretion to pull off properly. It's a fine line between quietly sussing and barfing Ramen.
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
If you are an experienced melody player, you will probably be able to join in with a tune fairly accurately after hearing it once though, or maybe even "realtime" - providing that the tune is a reasonably straightforward one. If the tune is difficult and complex, it would probably be better to sit it out.
Afterwards, you can ask the name of it, go away and learn it - then play it next time.
Backing a tune that you've never heard before on guitar is an entirely different matter. Certainly, there are some guitarists who can do this really well - even in "real time".
However, such guitarists are as rare as hens' teeth ...
- .. the majority of 'em just make a pig's ear of it ...
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
I am absolutely against 'learning on the fly' unless you know everyone at the session well and they are totally aware of their limitations. Simply because although experienced players can often do it relatively well it sends out the wrong signals to those who can't. There are few things more weakening in session life than someone who things they can 'jam' along but actually really can't. I would sooner wait till I get home to learn a tune I like than risk encouraging one of the most hellish session sins.
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by bogman
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
I don't know Bogman- not sure why it would weaken the session unless the people doing this were totally hacking away loudly or something, and they likely would play this way whether they knew the tune or not. It also depends on the instrument- lots easier to play unobtrusively on a tune you don't know on a fiddle than on a whistle or pipes or something- I don't think I would try it on those. Besides, people I play with often force me to play a tune I don't know at a gig- they've all been playing together lots longer than I've even been playing and their tune reportoire is extensive- we'll play a dance or whatever and they tend to make up the sets on the fly- I'll be like- "hey, I don't know that one" and they just sorta look at me and say "oh, it's easy, you'll figure it out right away"- and as long as there is another fiddle player it works- I just listen the first time thru and join in the second time- and they just say-"see, no problem".........so doing this at just a session seems pretty tame to me given this........ can't see why it would hurt...... I guess I'm pretty accepting of other people and their foibles and hope they will be accepting of me and mine, which are extensive.....
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by fiddlinfarmer
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
Some people here appear to be taking the wrong end of the fiddle-stick.
Regarding the example I quoted, the tunes being played were neither written or even started by myself, nor were they by any means obscure or unfamiliar to our regular players. Also, I have little or no objection to hearing any tune being played by any player in a complementary manner [see 3) below], rather the opposite in fact.
I think Bogman just hit a nail...
Nobody here appears to dispute the observation that the desire to join in and play (with unfamiliar tunes) is indeed shared by all players of any ability, and is not just limited to beginners or accompanists. This desire also appears to stem from the same reasons in many cases (as stated in previous posts).
How do we then reconcile the actions of those experienced players who can and indeed do choose to join in on the fly, with advice advocated to lesser mortals that knowledge of the tune and the music is of primary requisite for participation?
What exactly is this required knowledge of the music? Is it :-
1) The ability to listen to tunes;
- recognize melodic, rhythmic & harmonic structure
2) The ability to play/accompany tunes;
- recall & play melody with suitable articulation and ornamentation (feel).
- and/or harmonize/improvise melody using appropriate rhythm
3) The ability to listen to and play/accompany tunes on the fly;
- perform 1 & 2 above in real-time
Incidentally, I guess the reason guitarists have it tough is because they are expected to work to level 3 from the off, and even then the choice of harmony can be extremely subjective.
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by Rick Payman
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
"How do we then reconcile the actions of those experienced players who can and indeed do choose to join in on the fly, with advice advocated to lesser mortals that knowledge of the tune and the music is of primary requisite for participation?"
Easy: if you can learn a tune on the fly, then do. If you can't, then don't try. Learn it off a recording or from another player in your own time before joining in at session.
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by Hammurabi Breathnach
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
There is a guy around these parts who sits in at sessions with a box full of 'top of the range harmonicas'. All different keys. He leaves the box open on the table and enquires as to the key of the tune you are playing. Then with a great deal of sucking, blowing and head bobbing he joins in with every tune, occasionally asking the key and swapping harmonicas as required. Thing is, he can't play a poxy note. Couldn't even play a tune on his own. Strange thing is, he is a very nice intelligent fellow in his own right.
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by Free Reed
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
Um, Rick, you're mixing advice from different people here. Not all of us think it's a mortal sin to learn tunes on the fly. Some of us even believe that a nice easy-going session is a reasonable place to do this, and even a good way to learn how to do this.
It also depends a lot on the tone of the session. For instance:
There are two weekly sessions in my town. One of them is laid back, good craic, not overly picky about "perfecting" the music. So it's not a session foul if someone launches into a tune they're still in the throes of learning and they hiccup and stumble along like a besotted college kid on his first binge.
The other session is also good craic, but the musical expectations are a bit higher. Play tunes you know well, keep the set going with interesting transitions, etc.
At the first session, anyone is welcome to pick up tunes on the fly, or just try their hand at doing so even if they struggle at it (because they need more experience at it).
At the second session, the players who CAN pick up tunes on the fly sometimes do, and the players who aren't comfortable picking up tunes on the fly don't try. The latter usually ask about the tune and then learn it later, one-on-one, in someone's kitchen.
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
Well, I see no conflict in having different "rules" for beginners and experienced players.
Rally drivers sometimes steer with their arms crossed - not something that you would recommend a learner to do!
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
Yep, I often recommend that a player practice learning tunes on the fly at home, from recordings or the radio, before trying it at a session. That's how I learned to do it.
And if you're visiting a session that frowns on learning tunes on the fly, even if you're quick at it, then be a good sport and sit out tunes you don't know. (You can still learn a few tunes, by lilting them in your head. And no one else will be the wiser.)
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
Well put Will. There can never be a definitive answer to this type of question because all sessions are different. My regular session has an average of 4 - 6 and only occasionally are there 8 or more so someone farting about is pretty obvious. I don't mind playing on the edge of stuff you just about know but generally hate when folk play stuff they haven't even heard before. Bigger sessions are obviously different as it's quite easy to get lost in the general noise. Personally I don't enjoy that type of session but that's only personal choice, some folk do and nothing wrong with that.
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by bogman
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
If you don't want people joining in with your original tunes, even when they have the enviable abiltiy to pick them up on the fly and play them competently, shouldn't you be playing them in your own kitchen, or in a recording study, or in a concert??? I guess I don't understand the issue here--of course people at a session will join in.........now, objecting to noodling, that I understand.
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
AlBrown - to whom exactly are you addressing this remark?
Just goes to show that some people really don't take the effort to listen...
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by Rick Payman
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
Will - "Not all of us think it's a mortal sin to learn tunes on the fly"
...and neither would I. The point I was [apparently] feebly attempting to make was the experienced and highly capable players have the exact same desire to join in with unfamiliar tunes as would a complete novice, and indeed everyone of any capability in-between.
Mix - "Rally drivers sometimes steer with their arms crossed - not something that you would recommend a learner to do!"
Not something I would recommend an experienced driver/player to do either!
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by Rick Payman
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
Rick, I hate to champion the obvious here, but isn't that why musicians bring their instruments to sessions--to play them? Don't sessions exist because people share a "compulsion to join in with a tune?"
So what's your point? Is there something wrong with that? Or perhaps some aspect that's mystifying you?
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by Miss Lonelyhearts
I always read this to remember why I'm here
http://www.thesession.org/
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by Random_notes
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
Rick, I am not trying to pick a fight, I just still don't understand your point. Everyone wants to join in on the fun, that is human nature, we all want to take part, regardless of ability. To me, that is just the way things are. Now, if you want to question whether or not everyone SHOULD join in, regardless of ability, or of knowledge, well in my opinion, there is an issue to discuss.....
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
I've modified my previous response (a bit of editing)
Welcome to The Session
The exchange* of tunes (& the compulsion to join in) is what keeps traditional Irish music alive. This website is one way of passing on jigs, reels and other dance tunes. It's not rocket surgery.
Some of the tunes are well known {dc|BGG DGG|BGB dcB|cAA EAA|cAc edc|}, and some are more obscure {CEG GAB|Afe dec|AGE DEF||GAG FGA|cAG FDC|D3 }. It's this mixture of the familiar [ Again ... (and I do tire of saying it)
scales ?*%! and stuff as you? > that makes for a good session**.
you have a recording? why do you need the dots?] and the new < Why can't you just *randomly* play stuff from your own creativity !!! and the other guys just jump in and play on the same
* rule #1 for an accompanist/newbie is to [sic] "learn the feckin' tune" before playing a note.
**tis true....but doesn't address the point.
If you have any questions about the music, you should start a discussion.
If you have any questions about the site, try reading the Frequently Asked Questions.
If you still can't find an answer to your query, drop it or start your own website ...
||Submit||
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by Random_notes
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
I guess I should make some attempt at closure here:-
Let me reiterate: "I have little or no objection to hearing any tune being played by any player in a complementary manner, rather the opposite in fact."
Ours is a very liberal and fun session, and we welcome players of any ability. Some players may have little or no session experience; if I could teach just one thing in a evening, then that would be the importance of listening - of course, most people learn by example.
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by Rick Payman
Re: The compulsion to join in with a tune.
Yes, listening. And listening deeply *while* playing, listening to others and to yourself, all at once.
But listening doesn't preclude simultaneously playing, right? In fact, listening while playing is what makes for a good session.
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by Miss Lonelyhearts
very true Rick, 'most people learn by example.'
# Posted on March 31st 2009 by Random_notes