The way you guys make it sound, you have to play the tunes exactly right.... That seems kind of unoriginal and boring to me. Why can't you just randomly play stuff from your own creativity and the other guys just jump in and play on the same scales and stuff as you? Have you ever been in a session like this?
I don't mean to insult ITM so please don't get upset and/or feel the urge to land insults at me or one another.
LOL, your joking right? ! Thats called a jam session, nothing to do with a trad session. Trad is about the tunes! There is plenty of room for personal expression within the tunes but its not like jazz or rock, if you want what you describe your probably on the wrong site!
Well, you are being insulting to the music, because you obviously have no comprehension for what it is.
There is plenty of improvisation and orriginality in this music, shed loads of it. But instead of it happening in broad sweeps, it happens on the micro level.
You might find more helpful answers if you were to spend more time listening to it. It's not all the same. I will say the things that make ITM great are both subtle and profound, and that as a genre it doesn't have much to say to people who only are able to feel anger or maudlin sentimentality.
If you didn't notice my name says "beginner." I thought maybe instead of insulting me you could correct me, but apparently I thought too highly of many of you.
All I meant was why can't a bunch of guys with like an accordian, fiddle, tin whistle, etc. get together and play Irish-sounding music in a session, but not necessarily "tunes?"
In American colloquial terms: "jam."
And I'm referring to Irish music, not rock music.
And yes, I am a real person. what did you think I was? A robot?
why don't we all stop typing using the keyboard in a standard way and styor using the kuwomn as me gfoijiejke gi;;;m;mlme amd pdfpig all sort of sh*teeeeeee and whpkenmet then kjlelrkela/ktreektgn aew who the f uuuuuuuuuck can telllllllllllll colkdjakjflak it''ll be oringinal and like a real expression.
You can do what you like. Just don't bank on it being particularly good, or anyone else thinking it is either
Hang on there a minute now.!!!......there was an accordion player beside me at session some months ago, and he was jamming. Mind you, I don't think he realised he was jamming, but there is no other explanation for the way he was trying to play every bloody tunes... as our friends accross the foam would say...He was...like..Awesome!
Beginner, a traditional session is a specific thing. I mean, it has a definition and a jam doesn't fit that definition--it is something else. A group of people can get together and a play music, but if they are not playing irish tunes, specific melodies, according to the tradition, its not a session.
4567, I'm willing to take you at your word that this is a real question. The truth is a "jam" is the complete opposite of what most of us are trying to do. Furthermore, when someone wanders into the pub laboring under the false assumption that what the musicians are doing is "jamming" and then attempts to improvise something over the top - well, it can be quite annoying.
Most people I know who go to play at sessions are there to play specific tunes of a very specific genre. It is not an open jam of any sort. If you do wish to "jam" with other musicians, perhaps even with an Irish feel to it, I suggest doing it amongst friends at your house. But don't expect the idea to be welcomed at a session. Sorry -
Is there any sort of "gathering" (since you strictly forbid the use of the word "session") in which I can simply play with musicians that play Irish music? I'm sure I could find a few people, but what I mean is there a name for a session-esque meeting where Irish musicians "jam" together?
I think many of you guys were beginners before as well, so instead of acting all high and mighty, canyou please try to be a bit friendlier and more helpful? Thanks.
leoj- you helped me understand what a session actually is. Thanks man for actually helping.
Well, we're all like picasso and van gogh aren't we? So no worries really. I feel that I'm just like them.
But really, and seriously, the only way the way those blokes could break the rules was because they knew the rules inside out. Don't learn the wrong lesson from Modernism. Don't.
I have seen it happen quite a few times. Gifted musician strolls up to session, has a bit of a listen, says to himself I can play that sh*t and away he goes! Moments later he is "jamming", everyone else is "playing the tunes" The jammer has a big grin on his face and everyone else looks like they've just pood their pants. Priceless!
hahahahhahahahahhahahhahahahhaahhahahahahah
ITM is a deathly grave business, though some melody lines might sound light or even delightfully puckish to your ears. Your oh, so free notions regarding ITM come treacherously close to youthful whimsy, which has no place in 'the ould traoghdisionnm'. (Think Kevin Bacon in 'Footloose' except set in some pub built with a loan from Guinness.)
What brings you easy enjoyment now? Maybe things like making a sandwich, skateboarding down a long railing, kissing your grandmother's dry left hand. Well, the grayest man on this board will tell you: ITM is nowhere as effective as those things as a pleasure delivery system. You thought the old blues men had to pay dues? Listen—you gotta prove your worth like a Chicago crack house pit bull before the hollow-eyed sourbeard in the corner will tell you you're ready to feel pleasure while playing this stuff.
Sigh - how I miss the sweet embrace of youthful whimsy. Now, I must hasten away to a dark corner to play Maids of Mitchelstown, joylessly and somber, as I harken back to happy days of skate boards ramps and Black Flag cassette tapes.
Give some to Beginner4567, it might help him a bit, like a babelfish in the ear......
....4567, if you want to do as you suggest, put it to the local musicians at your local session, invite them round to your place with an explanation of what you are hoping for.
Don't stay up too late waiting for anyone, I would advise.
I know people who can jam.
I know people who come to sessions.
Sometimes these are the same people.
That doesn't mean they would want to do what you suggest.
I think it would only 'work' with a few people of your own age and experience.
I think you need to get out a bit more and stop bothering us with these questions till you know a bit more about what you're talking about.
Sorry.
It's true, Irish music is unoriginal and boring. That's why the English took over this country and tried to destroy it. Would to God they had succeeded in liberating us from this deathly peasant pretend-art. Then, like civilised, modernised, English-speaking citizens of the modern world, we could proclaim our creative individuality through forward-looking, progressive art forms. Such as the free-improvisation jam. Alas, we Irish are just a bunch of atavistic bog-men. Now, back to playing the Jig of Slurs...
No creativity allowed. If I catch you even thinking about omitting or adding a note it'll be off to the gallows, because once these tunes appeared out of nowhere without any human interference, they are inalterable. Wouldn't want to upset any of the decrepit old-timers who can't think fast enough to follow along.
The Chieftains don't ever improvise right? Oh they do? Those whippersnappers don't know about ITM.
Did Jesus jam or did He just play the Old Testament melodies? Okay, you're right, He jammed. And He jammed incredibly hard, as we all know. But here's the catch: are you Jesus then?
pavlf -- I'm sure he doesn't mean it. He doesn't know what he's saying half the time. We all of us get in a state when the attendant leaves us alone for too long in the corridor. When he's lucid, he makes up for all the other stuff. He was doing great up till a moment ago,
This thread is weirding me out.
I think beginner4567 just wanted to see what kind of mess he could create by asking such a thing.
Don't take everything so personally, beginner; if you wade into a pool of hungry sharks, you're gonna get bit.
Just take what you want and ignore the rest. Then have a pint and loosen up a little!
Yo Beginner, if you like Irish-esque jamming, good luck to you. Overwhelmingly, folks who like Irish trad will hate that kind of stuff. In my opinion it doesn't have anything that I like about trad.
Jamming+Irish=b llocks sound. That's my opinion, FWIW. Much more productive to learn the tunes and enjoy them.
beginner4567: If this truly is a legitimate question, then none of the answers that anyone gives you will help you at all. The concept of an Irish Traditional Music session is unfathomable to you at this present point in your life, and reading an answer on a mustard board (snide, snarky, well-intentioned, or otherwise) will not help you.
As Yoda would tell you, "Such a question only figure out answer by yourself must you do."
Rather than "jam", rather than seek & find people to "jam on Irish music with", and rather than be mired in self-imposed infinite beginnerdom, get thee to a session, nay, get thee to many sessions, and listen, Listen, LISTEN. After which, you will be rewarded with the answer to your question.
Don't use "jamming" as your outlet for getting your ITM jones on. Learn to play for real, and then you won't have to resort to "jamming", finding people to "jam" with, or asking people, "Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions?"
This is not meant to be a condescending reply -- it is meant to be a helpful one, with only the best of intentions. If you cannot see it that way, then you will only be supporting my opening paragraph, that you are not ready for an answer to your question at this present point in your life.
I have faith in you, beginner4567, and I believe you will one day look back on this thread and not believe that you actually started it. but -- find the answer yourself must you do.
The best players, Tommy Peoples perhaps, "are" changing how they play the tunes. They can do it in a session, they can do it in a set, they can even do it from one phrase to the next. But even the best players come up with brilliant music over time. They use that time to give us mortals something the likes of me doesn't deserve. This may bore you & that's good to know early.
Each of us has to start somewhere. Your choice. If you want to begin with improvising it's up to you.
beginner4567: You wrote: "I think many of you guys were beginners before as well..."
Yes, you are quite right -- and by most criteria, I will forever be a beginner, playing-ability-wise. So in my original reply, I know of what I speak -- first-hand -- because I once thought the same way as you.
That's why I say that it's up to you where you end up in Irish Traditional Music -- and I *don't* mean it snidely, snarkily, or condescendingly.
This is really odd beginner4567. Your last three posts have all been immediately preceded by posts by Donoagh17, and all six posts have almost the exact number of replies. It's all a bit much for me. I think I need a lie down.
Have we had a disproportionate number of newbies in the past few days with no bios, wide-eyed innocent questions, and wounded how-could-you-treat-me-like-this attitudes?
Could some hacker have foiled Jeremy, and is even now preparing another onslaught, while rolling on the floor laughing?
So you do like listening to Irish traditional music? The reason I ask is because I can still not suss out whether you are gleaning your information from our discussions or from having heard
live sessions.
To me a good session beats discussing it any day.
It's simple, really. If you do freestyle improv, it isn't an Irish trad session, it's a jazz session.
And if you don't do any freestyle improv at a jazz session... well then, it isn't jazz.
Different strokes for different folks. Or sometimes for the same folks, at different times--I do some freestyling myself, now and then. But not at an Irish session, that's not what it's for.
You might add some details to your bio page here, to let us know a bit about yourself. That might cut down on the sarcasm--well, a little bit, maybe. We're kind of known for it, around here.
In my experience, most "jams" are where bedroom strat strummers collect together and boast about their new FX pedals and how much their new PRS guitar cost and how that's gonna make ‘em play better because they read in an expensive magazine that's the gear used by Satriani or Stephen Raymond Vaughn or wotteffah boring tit you happen idolize. You then wait and wait for your turn to get on stage for ten minutes, plug in and play the same tedious 12 bar shuffle in E, over amplified, hapless and tuneless to the maximum with a bunch of old white never-had-been blokes who dream of a 70's style electric BLooZ revival happening.
At sessions, thankfully, just about every detail is different!
(or is it?!)
You can spend a lifetime learning and playing traditional music, and still only know a fraction of what there is to know about it. Any experienced traditional musician will tell you that.
Learning is a never-ending process - so no-one is ever "bored" as you say in your ignorance. And no tune is ever played in "exactly" the same way - not even by the same musician.
No tradition (including ITM) is "tablets of stone" - subtle changes occur all the time. With the emphasis on "subtle". And when such changes do occur, they are introduced by skilled and experienced players, not by complete beginners such as yourself.
If you really want to learn about it, you will find that there are plenty of knowledgeable and experienced musicians here on this board who will only be too happy to help you.
If, on the other hand, you choose to advise those people how and what they should play, you'll deserve all the flak that comes your way.
Beginner - To answer your original question, the tunes do not have to be played the exact same way, note for note every time. That WOULD become boring.
However, jamming in the style you describe, and Trad Irish just do not mix. It's as simple as that, sir.
Krick Stahlschwanz- Omg man you made me laugh so hard.
That is so true. I have a friend EXACTLY how you describe. Thankfully I'm not like that.. I don't even own pedals or an electric guitar. I just play acoustic and kind of like to just "jam" with experienced players, not the people who focus on amp settings, pedals, etc. Those people are in it for the image, not the music.
I get what you guys are saying though. I should probably actually start going to sessions before forming opinions on it
beginner4567, have you learned any ITM tunes yet? Please make the effort to do so. Learn the melody first then the chords. After making a bit of an effort with this you'll be pleasantly surprised surprised.You'll have an improved knowledge of your instrument and you'll find your blooze jamming will make more sense.
4567, Irish traditional music, by its nature, doesn't lend itself to jamming. In a jam, as I understand it, one instrument plays the tune (or whatever else they feel like) while the others play chords, or chop, or something else that keeps the rhythm going. First of all, the standard instruments for this music are uilleann pipes, flute, and fiddle---all of which are melody instruments---they can't play chords (well, the fiddle can, kind of, but not the way a guitar would---a guitar sounds much better for that kind of thing). The whole point of the music is melody. So if you have one instrument "jamming", what are the rest of the instruments supposed to do? Think about it. It wouldn't work. Even if you have guitars and other strummy instruments around to keep the rhythm, all the melody instruments would have to stop playing for most of the tune.
Which isn't to say that this never happens---you might very well visit a session where some of the other instruments take a break and let one musician play for a while. But that's not typical. Definitely go see for yourself.
So now we are defining the word "jam". It is this, it is not that, you can do this, you cannot do that, etc. etc. etc.
The Taoist in me wants to scream.
BTW, 4567:
I think I see what you initially were asking about, and, yes, I think the above posters are correct -
> if you delve into Irish traditional music further, you will see clearly why what you are suggesting would require changing the music and the manner of playing it together into something else entirely.
> one above post is quite right, the music is not mechanical or stagnant or regimented, but the latitude for personal expression is simply (or not at all simply) of a different order.
> Played in the manner I think you suggest, it would no longer be ITM. Not wrong, not better, not worse, but not ITM.
GUys, he has a point,
Random improvisation is where I get most of my compositions from. I randomly play chordal/arpeggio notes in jig/reel time in a certain scale, and put them all together and write them down.
If we had "sessions" (Not necessarily ITM sessions obviously) where a lot of people did stuff like this, I am sure you could get some pretty good stuff out of it.
If you are a good musician you should know where the notes are and how to use them outside of ITM set tunes, and use that to your advantage
maybe you should try some rock, or blues, there is the definition of jam!
but i think it would be super cool to have an irish jam, with traditional instruments and tunes, BUT with never-ending pennywhistle solos, button-accordion rock-outs, complex fiddle improvisations!
just dont expect your local session to be the same, the folks at the local pub would boot you out the dooor, becuase essentially a session is where you play tunes.
But im sure many younger folk like me would be into the itm jam idea....
Beginner:
My take on it is: sure you COULD jam at a traditional session, but should you? probably not. If people generally started doing this it soon wouldn't be a traditonal session at all -- it would be a JAM session which would kind of obviate the point of having a trad session of traditional folk tunes in the first place, wouldn't it?
Other thought...just because a group of people gets together informally in a pub to play "folk" music doesn't mean it's *for the 'folk' who don't have a clue about how to play it...that is, if you're a person who comes along and hasn't done his/her homework you really can't participate in a meaningful way. The music, although it belongs to the folk tradition, is still music with defineable qualities and types of tunes and structure etc...and so it demands homework and some study to participate....at whatever level.
Another thought: would you "jam" with a chamber group? or say walk in an have a tune with the Chicago Symphony or the Toronto Opera? Proabably not. Ask yourself why not. Then ask yourself why you think there's a qualititative difference between jaming with classical musicians and 'folk' musicians at a decent Irish session? to not know/appreciate or apprehend the work that goes into playing ITM well is an insult to all who are sitting there playing it. So you owe it to the group [and yourself] to appreciate their level of expertise...that you can do thru homework.
hope that helps. it's a matter of respect for both the people playing and the complexity of the music itself.
It can be hard for "young people" to get that sometimes....it seems to take the spontaneous fun out of it I suppose, but the fun and spontaneity will come...once you learn the music and play with people regularly.
As a side question, who here likes to hear just one melody instrument playing a tune with a bodhran and guitar(or other such rhythm instruments), or actually enjoys hearing 5 melody instruments playing the same melody at once?
I find in most cases I hear a crap load of different melody instruments playing the same exact melody line the sound is distorted and hectic, while the one instrument is a pure concentrated sound.
A different, more enjoyable way to play is multiple instruments playing a composed arrangement where they all complement each other, and play interwoven parts of the tune. That takes more planning, however, and is usually heard on albums or from a true band, not a session group.
I don't mean true bands as only ones that get recorded or have fame, but true bands would be a defined group of musicians that practice and arrange tunes for performance. Theres merits in having a loose confederation of friends and strangers that play traditional tunes, and merits in a tight group of like minded associates who practice together often and put a considerable amount of thought into their musical arrangements.
I'm sorry if you can't enjoy structured bands. I guess the London Philharmonic should just have an open door policy and should quit doing that dreaded practicing together bulls**t.
I'm going to restrain myself to the simple remark that I don't go to a session for band-practice. Different beasts entirely.
Arrangements... tunes for performance... cans of worms... Not what I'd call a good session.
Ok, well what would I call a good session? A few people who know the music well, able to adapt and listen to each other, able to string stuff together in such a way that is humourous and raises smiles of recognition on the others' faces, obviously competent (but no need to all be virtuosos), but above all where no-one quite knows what's coming next apart from when it is utterly right that everyone knows what's coming next.
This is once again one of those things: "If you need to ask..." etc.
Speaking from my own experience of playing music at different types of music sessions, I would say that each session has its own special "flavor" and traditions and ways of playing music.
If you can learn how to adapt and fit in and (literally) play along so you can enjoy the music making, that is all well and good. But it usually doesn't work very well to try to mix traditions from different styles and genres of music in sessions where the purpose is to just get together and have fun trying to make the organized noise which we call music.
For example, when I play my acoustic bass at a bluegrass session or an old-time music session, I expect to just play the same notes or the same bass line over and over again while the melody players take their turns playing the melody and/or improvising on the melody while I play a solid foundation for their improvisations.
It is the same way at a local Blues Jam. I just play the same pattern of notes over and over again while the singer and the other instruments sing or play above the bass line which I am playing as a foundation.
At the local Irish session (where I was asked to play the piano), I usually just play a bass line and chords while the melody players play the tunes over and over again until they get tired of playing them.
If you are going to try to improvise on Irish tunes, you really ought to do it in the privacy of your own home or maybe start your own band for the purpose of improvising on this music.
Many years ago, one of my piano teachers told me that if you can still recognize the original outline of the music or the tune under the improvisations, then you are playing ragtime. If you cannot recognize the original tune or even the outline of the original tune, then it must be jazz.
Those who "jam" on the blues/jazz styles have learned the musical forms underlying the expression. This brings them together and allows for a more or less musical sounding result. There's not a lot of rules in blues/jazz - so the resulting expressions are limited.
It is perfectly possible to "jam" on ITM. However, the tunes themselves set the musical forms required to do it coherently.
Each tune has a core emotional shade. The musical forms requied to maintain that core expression are quite exacting - sessioneers DO jam - but get scowled at if they violate the form.
On occaision, some lark will play a reel as a slide or a jig as a reel by altering the tempo/metre .. but it is rare. Mostly everyone is working hard to percieve what it is in the tune that makes people want to hear and play it.
This is a big part of why ITM is so engaging - to become a good "jammer" one has to be profficient on the instrument, adept at the style plus truly understand the deep meaning of the tune. Once gotten, you can certainly push the envelope - the best ITM players do it all the time.
TO "jam" a tune from scratch - one would have to be already adept at the genre and formulate an "emotional shade" to express - then the other players would need to be able to perceive it and play it just like any other tune.
The degree to which musicians vary (jam, improvise on, whatever you want to call it) a tune varies widely from player to player, from from one day to the next, or one tune to the next, depending on how the mood takes them:
Some players do little more than shift emphasis from one note to another, or use slightly different ornamentation;
Some add in or drop out a few notes here and there;
Some are able to take whole phrases and twist all the notes around, finding new and creative ways to get as it were 'from A to B';
But, in order to do any of these, you must first have a deep familiarity with the tunes - and the only way to acquire that is by playing the tunes. Most of us never get beyond the first or second of the stages (which are not really stages, but merely arbitrary points on a spectrum) listed above, and feel no need to - the tunes are beautiful in themselves. Much of their beauty lies in their structure, essential to their functionality as dance music (which is what they are) and even if they are not being danced to, it is this structure that makes them what they are. Any variation that takes place must be within this structure, or else it loses its essential character. This structure is not a *chord* structure, as you'll find in Blues, Jazz, Rock and Pop, but a *melodic* structure.
So, you can jam on traditional tunes if you want, but unless you know the music inside out (the *music*, not just the individual tune), the result will not be *traditional music*, but 'traditional inspired music' or 'improvisation on traditional themes' or some such like - call it what you will. if you do that in a traditional session, the chances are, it won't be well received because that's not what people are there for.
I hope this has been of some help, beginner4567. I've probably just reiterated what others have already written, as I haven't read the whole thread in detail. Whether you end up a trad musician, a 'jammer' or both in equal measure, I hope you get as much out of traditional music as I have (and continue to).
Even in jazz and blues, one must really understand the form, the underlying melody, the chord structure, and their instrument, to jam well. Anyone with a few hours under their belt can noodle out an adequate improvisation for a few times around the chord progression, but it takes a lot of work to be able to do something interesting with your solo time.
There is no substitute for work and learning, whatever form of music you are playing. Mozle and ragaman make good points here!
Simple fact is, Irish Traditional Music (ITM) has one set of unwritten "rules", jazz a different set.
In either an ITM session or a jazz ensemble you can't just play anything...you can play anything that's within the "rules", the parameters which define the boundaries of the genre.
I was at an ITM session once where there was a guy who didn't "get it". He didn't seem to realise that the idea was for everyone to play traditional tunes in unison.
For one thing, he didn't have an ITM instrument, but rather a Renaissance thing (the name of which I can't recall at the moment) which fingers like a Recorder or bagpipe chanter but has the mouthpiece of a trumpet. It sounds fantastic, it's rather loud but beautiful, and the guy was obviously a skilled player.
But for all E minor jigs he would just improvise various scales arpeggios etc in E minor etc etc.
This went on for hours and neither he nor anyone else ever showed the slightest concern or annoyance.
I never saw that guy again- to him it was probably boring, as to him the music was quite repetitive. (It wouldn't have been if he had really clued into the subtle differences between the harmonic structures of the various tunes....)
Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
The way you guys make it sound, you have to play the tunes exactly right.... That seems kind of unoriginal and boring to me. Why can't you just randomly play stuff from your own creativity and the other guys just jump in and play on the same scales and stuff as you? Have you ever been in a session like this?
I don't mean to insult ITM so please don't get upset and/or feel the urge to land insults at me or one another.
Thanks.
# Posted on March 26th 2009 by beginner4567
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
LOL, your joking right? ! Thats called a jam session, nothing to do with a trad session. Trad is about the tunes! There is plenty of room for personal expression within the tunes but its not like jazz or rock, if you want what you describe your probably on the wrong site!
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
'There is plenty of room for personal expression within the tunes'
yeah like scowling
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by McDermott
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
He is joking. It's not a real person....
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by shanty
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
Well, you are being insulting to the music, because you obviously have no comprehension for what it is.
There is plenty of improvisation and orriginality in this music, shed loads of it. But instead of it happening in broad sweeps, it happens on the micro level.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by ...
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
4567, I can assure you that you are in no way a *plastic paddy*
Yes, I have been to the type of session you describe. Is that what you wish to play?
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
I can't believe that any of you lot actually think this is a serious session member. Look at the earlier posts.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by McDermott
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
why can't I climb mt. everest with a ball of twine and some beef jerky?
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by airport
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
You might find more helpful answers if you were to spend more time listening to it. It's not all the same. I will say the things that make ITM great are both subtle and profound, and that as a genre it doesn't have much to say to people who only are able to feel anger or maudlin sentimentality.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
1st thing ~
4567, do you like listening to Irish traditional music?
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
Do you have abc files for this 'jam session'?
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by pavlf
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
No but my wife makes very nice marmalade, without to many bits in it. I could send you the recipe if you like.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by McDermott
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
in ABC? Actually I'd prefer in in strawberry midi
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by pavlf
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
You misunderstand what I say.
If you didn't notice my name says "beginner." I thought maybe instead of insulting me you could correct me, but apparently I thought too highly of many of you.
All I meant was why can't a bunch of guys with like an accordian, fiddle, tin whistle, etc. get together and play Irish-sounding music in a session, but not necessarily "tunes?"
In American colloquial terms: "jam."
And I'm referring to Irish music, not rock music.
And yes, I am a real person. what did you think I was? A robot?
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by beginner4567
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
why don't we all stop typing using the keyboard in a standard way and styor using the kuwomn as me gfoijiejke gi;;;m;mlme amd pdfpig all sort of sh*teeeeeee and whpkenmet then kjlelrkela/ktreektgn aew who the f uuuuuuuuuck can telllllllllllll colkdjakjflak it''ll be oringinal and like a real expression.
You can do what you like. Just don't bank on it being particularly good, or anyone else thinking it is either
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by pavlf
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
Well, why don't you have a go with some like-minded individuals? Perhaps you could let us all know where and when, so wide berths can be given, etc...
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Pomme de Terre
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
pavif- People said the same thing about Van Gogh, Mozart, and Picasso.
We wouldn't have ITM if it wasn't for creative minds that challenged existing "rules" and "what's right."
That's how things develop.
I can assure God did not say "Let there be Irish Traditional Music" on the eighth day.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by beginner4567
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
Hang on there a minute now.!!!......there was an accordion player beside me at session some months ago, and he was jamming. Mind you, I don't think he realised he was jamming, but there is no other explanation for the way he was trying to play every bloody tunes... as our friends accross the foam would say...He was...like..Awesome!
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Free Reed
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
Beginner, a traditional session is a specific thing. I mean, it has a definition and a jam doesn't fit that definition--it is something else. A group of people can get together and a play music, but if they are not playing irish tunes, specific melodies, according to the tradition, its not a session.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by leoj
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
4567, I'm willing to take you at your word that this is a real question. The truth is a "jam" is the complete opposite of what most of us are trying to do. Furthermore, when someone wanders into the pub laboring under the false assumption that what the musicians are doing is "jamming" and then attempts to improvise something over the top - well, it can be quite annoying.
Most people I know who go to play at sessions are there to play specific tunes of a very specific genre. It is not an open jam of any sort. If you do wish to "jam" with other musicians, perhaps even with an Irish feel to it, I suggest doing it amongst friends at your house. But don't expect the idea to be welcomed at a session. Sorry -
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
Rock on, dude. Run your own jammin' session
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Hup
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
Is there any sort of "gathering" (since you strictly forbid the use of the word "session") in which I can simply play with musicians that play Irish music? I'm sure I could find a few people, but what I mean is there a name for a session-esque meeting where Irish musicians "jam" together?
I think many of you guys were beginners before as well, so instead of acting all high and mighty, canyou please try to be a bit friendlier and more helpful? Thanks.
leoj- you helped me understand what a session actually is. Thanks man for actually helping.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by beginner4567
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
Well, we're all like picasso and van gogh aren't we? So no worries really. I feel that I'm just like them.
But really, and seriously, the only way the way those blokes could break the rules was because they knew the rules inside out. Don't learn the wrong lesson from Modernism. Don't.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by pavlf
. . .
& beginner4567 & his brother?
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
I have seen it happen quite a few times. Gifted musician strolls up to session, has a bit of a listen, says to himself I can play that sh*t and away he goes! Moments later he is "jamming", everyone else is "playing the tunes" The jammer has a big grin on his face and everyone else looks like they've just pood their pants. Priceless!
hahahahhahahahahhahahhahahahhaahhahahahahah
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by mcknowall
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
beginner—
ITM is a deathly grave business, though some melody lines might sound light or even delightfully puckish to your ears. Your oh, so free notions regarding ITM come treacherously close to youthful whimsy, which has no place in 'the ould traoghdisionnm'. (Think Kevin Bacon in 'Footloose' except set in some pub built with a loan from Guinness.)
What brings you easy enjoyment now? Maybe things like making a sandwich, skateboarding down a long railing, kissing your grandmother's dry left hand. Well, the grayest man on this board will tell you: ITM is nowhere as effective as those things as a pleasure delivery system. You thought the old blues men had to pay dues? Listen—you gotta prove your worth like a Chicago crack house pit bull before the hollow-eyed sourbeard in the corner will tell you you're ready to feel pleasure while playing this stuff.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
But, nothing wrong with a jam night.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil. Where can I get me some of that shxt man?
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by McDermott
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
Sigh - how I miss the sweet embrace of youthful whimsy. Now, I must hasten away to a dark corner to play Maids of Mitchelstown, joylessly and somber, as I harken back to happy days of skate boards ramps and Black Flag cassette tapes.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
Well put, NEW Pure Drop. Well Put.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
Give some to Beginner4567, it might help him a bit, like a babelfish in the ear......
....4567, if you want to do as you suggest, put it to the local musicians at your local session, invite them round to your place with an explanation of what you are hoping for.
Don't stay up too late waiting for anyone, I would advise.
I know people who can jam.
I know people who come to sessions.
Sometimes these are the same people.
That doesn't mean they would want to do what you suggest.
I think it would only 'work' with a few people of your own age and experience.
I think you need to get out a bit more and stop bothering us with these questions till you know a bit more about what you're talking about.
Sorry.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
It's true, Irish music is unoriginal and boring. That's why the English took over this country and tried to destroy it. Would to God they had succeeded in liberating us from this deathly peasant pretend-art. Then, like civilised, modernised, English-speaking citizens of the modern world, we could proclaim our creative individuality through forward-looking, progressive art forms. Such as the free-improvisation jam. Alas, we Irish are just a bunch of atavistic bog-men. Now, back to playing the Jig of Slurs...
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Hammurabi Breathnach
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
oops...two postings whilst I was composing...
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
You're not allowed to compose. You play ITM.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by McDermott
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
Maybe I was decomposing.
Nurse ! The formaldehyde, quick !
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
denis penis come back
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by pavlf
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
No creativity allowed. If I catch you even thinking about omitting or adding a note it'll be off to the gallows, because once these tunes appeared out of nowhere without any human interference, they are inalterable. Wouldn't want to upset any of the decrepit old-timers who can't think fast enough to follow along.
The Chieftains don't ever improvise right? Oh they do? Those whippersnappers don't know about ITM.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by stupidwhistler
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
bullsh*te, actually i can't be arsed ...... someone else will help
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by pavlf
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
Well, it comes down to this, doesn't it:
Did Jesus jam or did He just play the Old Testament melodies? Okay, you're right, He jammed. And He jammed incredibly hard, as we all know. But here's the catch: are you Jesus then?
Ahhh, nothing like deploying the odd parable.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
that's so wrong Ican't even go there
stick jesus up yr arse
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by pavlf
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
pavlf -- I'm sure he doesn't mean it. He doesn't know what he's saying half the time. We all of us get in a state when the attendant leaves us alone for too long in the corridor. When he's lucid, he makes up for all the other stuff. He was doing great up till a moment ago,
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
jam session
Good friends we have, oh, good friends we've lost
Along the way.
In this great future, you cant forget your past;
So dry your tears, I say.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
random—
I appreciate your words.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
It's Bobby O'Marley again. Now we're Jammin'!
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by McDermott
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
This thread is weirding me out.
I think beginner4567 just wanted to see what kind of mess he could create by asking such a thing.
Don't take everything so personally, beginner; if you wade into a pool of hungry sharks, you're gonna get bit.
Just take what you want and ignore the rest. Then have a pint and loosen up a little!
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Glass of Beer
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
Yo Beginner, if you like Irish-esque jamming, good luck to you. Overwhelmingly, folks who like Irish trad will hate that kind of stuff. In my opinion it doesn't have anything that I like about trad.
Jamming+Irish=b llocks sound. That's my opinion, FWIW. Much more productive to learn the tunes and enjoy them.
Good luck
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Brown Creeper
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
beginner4567: If this truly is a legitimate question, then none of the answers that anyone gives you will help you at all. The concept of an Irish Traditional Music session is unfathomable to you at this present point in your life, and reading an answer on a mustard board (snide, snarky, well-intentioned, or otherwise) will not help you.
As Yoda would tell you, "Such a question only figure out answer by yourself must you do."
Rather than "jam", rather than seek & find people to "jam on Irish music with", and rather than be mired in self-imposed infinite beginnerdom, get thee to a session, nay, get thee to many sessions, and listen, Listen, LISTEN. After which, you will be rewarded with the answer to your question.
Don't use "jamming" as your outlet for getting your ITM jones on. Learn to play for real, and then you won't have to resort to "jamming", finding people to "jam" with, or asking people, "Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions?"
This is not meant to be a condescending reply -- it is meant to be a helpful one, with only the best of intentions. If you cannot see it that way, then you will only be supporting my opening paragraph, that you are not ready for an answer to your question at this present point in your life.
I have faith in you, beginner4567, and I believe you will one day look back on this thread and not believe that you actually started it. but -- find the answer yourself must you do.
Godspeed to you lad, and enjoy the journey!
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by browndog
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
The best players, Tommy Peoples perhaps, "are" changing how they play the tunes. They can do it in a session, they can do it in a set, they can even do it from one phrase to the next. But even the best players come up with brilliant music over time. They use that time to give us mortals something the likes of me doesn't deserve. This may bore you & that's good to know early.
Each of us has to start somewhere. Your choice. If you want to begin with improvising it's up to you.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
Oh, and if this is *not* a legitimate question, then bugger off!
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by browndog
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
"After which, you will be rewarded with the answer to your question. -- or not, I suppose. It's all up to you.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by browndog
4567 1 & 2
exactly how many brothers do you have?
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
beginner4567: You wrote: "I think many of you guys were beginners before as well..."
Yes, you are quite right -- and by most criteria, I will forever be a beginner, playing-ability-wise. So in my original reply, I know of what I speak -- first-hand -- because I once thought the same way as you.
That's why I say that it's up to you where you end up in Irish Traditional Music -- and I *don't* mean it snidely, snarkily, or condescendingly.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by browndog
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
browndog- I didn't find you condescending at all- in fact I found you quite helpful.
I'm talking about most of the others.
Random_notes- I have one brother.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by beginner4567
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
you're the 20 year old brother?
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
This is really odd beginner4567. Your last three posts have all been immediately preceded by posts by Donoagh17, and all six posts have almost the exact number of replies. It's all a bit much for me. I think I need a lie down.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by McDermott
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
Have we had a disproportionate number of newbies in the past few days with no bios, wide-eyed innocent questions, and wounded how-could-you-treat-me-like-this attitudes?
Could some hacker have foiled Jeremy, and is even now preparing another onslaught, while rolling on the floor laughing?
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by oldstrings
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
I have better things to worry about than getting attention on a random internet site.
This was a true question. Is it that laughable...
If you don't want to help me than please stop posting on my thread. I'm doing nothing wrong.
Thanks for everyone who's actually giving me advice.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by beginner4567
Irish sessions
So you do like listening to Irish traditional music? The reason I ask is because I can still not suss out whether you are gleaning your information from our discussions or from having heard
live sessions.
To me a good session beats discussing it any day.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
I've only been to one session.
Yes, I listen to ITM.
And I'm sure a session is better than talking about one but I think jamming would be even better
I've pretty much gotten an answer by now though.
Thanks for the help guys.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by beginner4567
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
The sarcasm you have been subjected to is just par for the course around here. Don't be put off by it.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by leoj
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
It's simple, really. If you do freestyle improv, it isn't an Irish trad session, it's a jazz session.
And if you don't do any freestyle improv at a jazz session... well then, it isn't jazz.
Different strokes for different folks. Or sometimes for the same folks, at different times--I do some freestyling myself, now and then. But not at an Irish session, that's not what it's for.
You might add some details to your bio page here, to let us know a bit about yourself. That might cut down on the sarcasm--well, a little bit, maybe. We're kind of known for it, around here.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by John Galt
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
Van Gogh was famous for it- always played by ear.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Here Lyeth
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
'ear, 'ear
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by mcknowall
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
In my experience, most "jams" are where bedroom strat strummers collect together and boast about their new FX pedals and how much their new PRS guitar cost and how that's gonna make ‘em play better because they read in an expensive magazine that's the gear used by Satriani or Stephen Raymond Vaughn or wotteffah boring tit you happen idolize. You then wait and wait for your turn to get on stage for ten minutes, plug in and play the same tedious 12 bar shuffle in E, over amplified, hapless and tuneless to the maximum with a bunch of old white never-had-been blokes who dream of a 70's style electric BLooZ revival happening.
At sessions, thankfully, just about every detail is different!
(or is it?!)
Danke
Krick
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Krick Stahlschwanz
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
Matisse played the fiddle.
Just thought I'd throw that in as we're talking about artists. Didn't know until I read it recently.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by RichardB
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
Someone needs to find some tulips to go and tiptoe through...
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by RichardB
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
"Beginner4567"
You can spend a lifetime learning and playing traditional music, and still only know a fraction of what there is to know about it. Any experienced traditional musician will tell you that.
Learning is a never-ending process - so no-one is ever "bored" as you say in your ignorance. And no tune is ever played in "exactly" the same way - not even by the same musician.
No tradition (including ITM) is "tablets of stone" - subtle changes occur all the time. With the emphasis on "subtle". And when such changes do occur, they are introduced by skilled and experienced players, not by complete beginners such as yourself.
If you really want to learn about it, you will find that there are plenty of knowledgeable and experienced musicians here on this board who will only be too happy to help you.
If, on the other hand, you choose to advise those people how and what they should play, you'll deserve all the flak that comes your way.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
Beginner - To answer your original question, the tunes do not have to be played the exact same way, note for note every time. That WOULD become boring.
However, jamming in the style you describe, and Trad Irish just do not mix. It's as simple as that, sir.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Dennis Regan
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
Krick Stahlschwanz- Omg man you made me laugh so hard.
That is so true. I have a friend EXACTLY how you describe. Thankfully I'm not like that.. I don't even own pedals or an electric guitar. I just play acoustic and kind of like to just "jam" with experienced players, not the people who focus on amp settings, pedals, etc. Those people are in it for the image, not the music.
I get what you guys are saying though. I should probably actually start going to sessions before forming opinions on it
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by beginner4567
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
What you should be doing, and I know it's not easy when you are a kid, is trying to be a little more humble.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by ...
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
He strikes me as naive, but lacking humility? Choosing to call yourself Beginner is rather humble, I would say.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by leoj
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
Thanks for the advice Dad.
(i.e. llig leahcim).
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by beginner4567
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
Respectful ?
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by David50
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
you're welcome son
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by ...
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
beginner4567, have you learned any ITM tunes yet? Please make the effort to do so. Learn the melody first then the chords. After making a bit of an effort with this you'll be pleasantly surprised surprised.You'll have an improved knowledge of your instrument and you'll find your blooze jamming will make more sense.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by SteelPlayer
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
You guys seem to be big fans of feeding trolls
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by breqwas
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
4567, Irish traditional music, by its nature, doesn't lend itself to jamming. In a jam, as I understand it, one instrument plays the tune (or whatever else they feel like) while the others play chords, or chop, or something else that keeps the rhythm going. First of all, the standard instruments for this music are uilleann pipes, flute, and fiddle---all of which are melody instruments---they can't play chords (well, the fiddle can, kind of, but not the way a guitar would---a guitar sounds much better for that kind of thing). The whole point of the music is melody. So if you have one instrument "jamming", what are the rest of the instruments supposed to do? Think about it. It wouldn't work. Even if you have guitars and other strummy instruments around to keep the rhythm, all the melody instruments would have to stop playing for most of the tune.
Which isn't to say that this never happens---you might very well visit a session where some of the other instruments take a break and let one musician play for a while. But that's not typical. Definitely go see for yourself.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by kennedy
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
My two cents, pardon me --
So now we are defining the word "jam". It is this, it is not that, you can do this, you cannot do that, etc. etc. etc.
The Taoist in me wants to scream.
BTW, 4567:
I think I see what you initially were asking about, and, yes, I think the above posters are correct -
> if you delve into Irish traditional music further, you will see clearly why what you are suggesting would require changing the music and the manner of playing it together into something else entirely.
> one above post is quite right, the music is not mechanical or stagnant or regimented, but the latitude for personal expression is simply (or not at all simply) of a different order.
> Played in the manner I think you suggest, it would no longer be ITM. Not wrong, not better, not worse, but not ITM.
Likely redundant, but -
Good luck.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Piece
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
GUys, he has a point,
Random improvisation is where I get most of my compositions from. I randomly play chordal/arpeggio notes in jig/reel time in a certain scale, and put them all together and write them down.
If we had "sessions" (Not necessarily ITM sessions obviously) where a lot of people did stuff like this, I am sure you could get some pretty good stuff out of it.
If you are a good musician you should know where the notes are and how to use them outside of ITM set tunes, and use that to your advantage
Don't lash out now guys, it's just an opinion!
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by jlocky
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
maybe you should try some rock, or blues, there is the definition of jam!
but i think it would be super cool to have an irish jam, with traditional instruments and tunes, BUT with never-ending pennywhistle solos, button-accordion rock-outs, complex fiddle improvisations!
just dont expect your local session to be the same, the folks at the local pub would boot you out the dooor, becuase essentially a session is where you play tunes.
But im sure many younger folk like me would be into the itm jam idea....
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Groovebox
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
Beginner:
My take on it is: sure you COULD jam at a traditional session, but should you? probably not. If people generally started doing this it soon wouldn't be a traditonal session at all -- it would be a JAM session which would kind of obviate the point of having a trad session of traditional folk tunes in the first place, wouldn't it?
Other thought...just because a group of people gets together informally in a pub to play "folk" music doesn't mean it's *for the 'folk' who don't have a clue about how to play it...that is, if you're a person who comes along and hasn't done his/her homework you really can't participate in a meaningful way. The music, although it belongs to the folk tradition, is still music with defineable qualities and types of tunes and structure etc...and so it demands homework and some study to participate....at whatever level.
Another thought: would you "jam" with a chamber group? or say walk in an have a tune with the Chicago Symphony or the Toronto Opera? Proabably not. Ask yourself why not. Then ask yourself why you think there's a qualititative difference between jaming with classical musicians and 'folk' musicians at a decent Irish session? to not know/appreciate or apprehend the work that goes into playing ITM well is an insult to all who are sitting there playing it. So you owe it to the group [and yourself] to appreciate their level of expertise...that you can do thru homework.
hope that helps. it's a matter of respect for both the people playing and the complexity of the music itself.
It can be hard for "young people" to get that sometimes....it seems to take the spontaneous fun out of it I suppose, but the fun and spontaneity will come...once you learn the music and play with people regularly.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by skin&bow
There is a jammin' tradition
pogues, mike mcgoldrick, brian finnegan, alasdair fraser, planxty, paddy keenan . . .
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Ben Steen
Classical?
yo-yo ma, mozart's variations . . .
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
As a side question, who here likes to hear just one melody instrument playing a tune with a bodhran and guitar(or other such rhythm instruments), or actually enjoys hearing 5 melody instruments playing the same melody at once?
I find in most cases I hear a crap load of different melody instruments playing the same exact melody line the sound is distorted and hectic, while the one instrument is a pure concentrated sound.
A different, more enjoyable way to play is multiple instruments playing a composed arrangement where they all complement each other, and play interwoven parts of the tune. That takes more planning, however, and is usually heard on albums or from a true band, not a session group.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by stupidwhistler
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
All hail the true bands...
... sigh.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Pomme de Terre
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
I don't mean true bands as only ones that get recorded or have fame, but true bands would be a defined group of musicians that practice and arrange tunes for performance. Theres merits in having a loose confederation of friends and strangers that play traditional tunes, and merits in a tight group of like minded associates who practice together often and put a considerable amount of thought into their musical arrangements.
I'm sorry if you can't enjoy structured bands. I guess the London Philharmonic should just have an open door policy and should quit doing that dreaded practicing together bulls**t.
# Posted on March 28th 2009 by stupidwhistler
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
I'm going to restrain myself to the simple remark that I don't go to a session for band-practice. Different beasts entirely.
Arrangements... tunes for performance... cans of worms... Not what I'd call a good session.
Ok, well what would I call a good session? A few people who know the music well, able to adapt and listen to each other, able to string stuff together in such a way that is humourous and raises smiles of recognition on the others' faces, obviously competent (but no need to all be virtuosos), but above all where no-one quite knows what's coming next apart from when it is utterly right that everyone knows what's coming next.
This is once again one of those things: "If you need to ask..." etc.
atb
# Posted on March 28th 2009 by Pomme de Terre
I have a question
why *stupid* ?
# Posted on March 28th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
Hmm. Succinct.
# Posted on March 28th 2009 by Pomme de Terre
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
Speaking from my own experience of playing music at different types of music sessions, I would say that each session has its own special "flavor" and traditions and ways of playing music.
If you can learn how to adapt and fit in and (literally) play along so you can enjoy the music making, that is all well and good. But it usually doesn't work very well to try to mix traditions from different styles and genres of music in sessions where the purpose is to just get together and have fun trying to make the organized noise which we call music.
For example, when I play my acoustic bass at a bluegrass session or an old-time music session, I expect to just play the same notes or the same bass line over and over again while the melody players take their turns playing the melody and/or improvising on the melody while I play a solid foundation for their improvisations.
It is the same way at a local Blues Jam. I just play the same pattern of notes over and over again while the singer and the other instruments sing or play above the bass line which I am playing as a foundation.
At the local Irish session (where I was asked to play the piano), I usually just play a bass line and chords while the melody players play the tunes over and over again until they get tired of playing them.
If you are going to try to improvise on Irish tunes, you really ought to do it in the privacy of your own home or maybe start your own band for the purpose of improvising on this music.
Many years ago, one of my piano teachers told me that if you can still recognize the original outline of the music or the tune under the improvisations, then you are playing ragtime. If you cannot recognize the original tune or even the outline of the original tune, then it must be jazz.
# Posted on March 28th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
Because you obviously have no respect for traditional irish music, thats why. Its the minimum criteria.
# Posted on March 28th 2009 by Gerry1972
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
beginner4567,
Those who "jam" on the blues/jazz styles have learned the musical forms underlying the expression. This brings them together and allows for a more or less musical sounding result. There's not a lot of rules in blues/jazz - so the resulting expressions are limited.
It is perfectly possible to "jam" on ITM. However, the tunes themselves set the musical forms required to do it coherently.
Each tune has a core emotional shade. The musical forms requied to maintain that core expression are quite exacting - sessioneers DO jam - but get scowled at if they violate the form.
On occaision, some lark will play a reel as a slide or a jig as a reel by altering the tempo/metre .. but it is rare. Mostly everyone is working hard to percieve what it is in the tune that makes people want to hear and play it.
This is a big part of why ITM is so engaging - to become a good "jammer" one has to be profficient on the instrument, adept at the style plus truly understand the deep meaning of the tune. Once gotten, you can certainly push the envelope - the best ITM players do it all the time.
TO "jam" a tune from scratch - one would have to be already adept at the genre and formulate an "emotional shade" to express - then the other players would need to be able to perceive it and play it just like any other tune.
# Posted on March 29th 2009 by Mozle
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
The degree to which musicians vary (jam, improvise on, whatever you want to call it) a tune varies widely from player to player, from from one day to the next, or one tune to the next, depending on how the mood takes them:
Some players do little more than shift emphasis from one note to another, or use slightly different ornamentation;
Some add in or drop out a few notes here and there;
Some are able to take whole phrases and twist all the notes around, finding new and creative ways to get as it were 'from A to B';
But, in order to do any of these, you must first have a deep familiarity with the tunes - and the only way to acquire that is by playing the tunes. Most of us never get beyond the first or second of the stages (which are not really stages, but merely arbitrary points on a spectrum) listed above, and feel no need to - the tunes are beautiful in themselves. Much of their beauty lies in their structure, essential to their functionality as dance music (which is what they are) and even if they are not being danced to, it is this structure that makes them what they are. Any variation that takes place must be within this structure, or else it loses its essential character. This structure is not a *chord* structure, as you'll find in Blues, Jazz, Rock and Pop, but a *melodic* structure.
So, you can jam on traditional tunes if you want, but unless you know the music inside out (the *music*, not just the individual tune), the result will not be *traditional music*, but 'traditional inspired music' or 'improvisation on traditional themes' or some such like - call it what you will. if you do that in a traditional session, the chances are, it won't be well received because that's not what people are there for.
I hope this has been of some help, beginner4567. I've probably just reiterated what others have already written, as I haven't read the whole thread in detail. Whether you end up a trad musician, a 'jammer' or both in equal measure, I hope you get as much out of traditional music as I have (and continue to).
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
Even in jazz and blues, one must really understand the form, the underlying melody, the chord structure, and their instrument, to jam well. Anyone with a few hours under their belt can noodle out an adequate improvisation for a few times around the chord progression, but it takes a lot of work to be able to do something interesting with your solo time.
There is no substitute for work and learning, whatever form of music you are playing. Mozle and ragaman make good points here!
# Posted on March 30th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: Why can't you just jam at Irish sessions
Simple fact is, Irish Traditional Music (ITM) has one set of unwritten "rules", jazz a different set.
In either an ITM session or a jazz ensemble you can't just play anything...you can play anything that's within the "rules", the parameters which define the boundaries of the genre.
I was at an ITM session once where there was a guy who didn't "get it". He didn't seem to realise that the idea was for everyone to play traditional tunes in unison.
For one thing, he didn't have an ITM instrument, but rather a Renaissance thing (the name of which I can't recall at the moment) which fingers like a Recorder or bagpipe chanter but has the mouthpiece of a trumpet. It sounds fantastic, it's rather loud but beautiful, and the guy was obviously a skilled player.
But for all E minor jigs he would just improvise various scales arpeggios etc in E minor etc etc.
This went on for hours and neither he nor anyone else ever showed the slightest concern or annoyance.
I never saw that guy again- to him it was probably boring, as to him the music was quite repetitive. (It wouldn't have been if he had really clued into the subtle differences between the harmonic structures of the various tunes....)
# Posted on April 2nd 2009 by Richard D Cook