A wee puzzle for ye. I am a low whistle player, I have good sense of rhythm, reasonable and varied repertoire, have played plenty of sessions in my time - have even played for dancers - so my timing can't be that bad (actually used to be a dancer). Problem arises that my other half is a guitar player - but not from a real trad background. He enjoys the music and all - but we are having so much difficulty when it comes to him accompanying me. I play D whistle, so for him G, C and D chords work fine, but playing in time can be such a major problem sometimes, the difference in timing of jigs, reels, marches waltzes, polkas etc, just seems to be too much for him to distinguish them all. I learned to play by ear, so my understanding of musical notation is limited - his understanding is none-existent. I need to somehow figure out a way of explaining the differences, which he can understand and play. I also want some more interesting chords!! My Dad on the other hand is an excellent guitar player - totally trad background all his life (he's actually a fiddle player really), he seems to understand or just does it and it sounds great. Unfortunately he is a crap teacher (no patience) and rarely gets to sessions these days. Can some-one help, coz I love playing, I really love playing - until someone joins in with the wrong timing, wrong rhythm - just wrong. Arghhhhhhhh - tis so frustrating!!!!
My sons, one plays bass and drums, the other piano. I ask them to simply play something in rhythm so that I can then pick a tune that will fit their rhythm (giving them EVERYTHING I can to make it work), and once I start playing, it goes every which way and falls apart. And both of these boys are in rock bands.
Your guitarist needs to *listen* to a whole lot of trad music. And take some lessons. Or play without him/her--the music doesn't "need" accompaniment. So if s/he *wants* to play along, insist that s/he learn to do it passably well.
Even if your timing is perfect, whistle tends not to be the easiest instrument to follow. Another picked instrument (banjo or bouzouki, say) would probably be easier for your guitarist to hear the beat. But it can be done regardless.
None of which helps much, eh? So Start slowly. Force him to count out the beat. Play a double jig (Connaughtman's Rambles, say, or My Darling Asleep) for him and point out how the beat goes:
ONE-two-three ONE-two-three
On guitar, that tends to translate into strumming or picking as:
DOWN-up-down DOWN-up-down
Now play nothing but double jigs for an hour or two. He'll start to get the hang of it.
Next, try a straightforward reel.
ONE-two-three-four ONE-two-three-four
The strumming pattern will go something like:
DOWN-up-down-up DOWN-up-down-up
And play nothing but reels for a couple of hours. Then switch between reels and jigs so he can hear the difference. From there, it's just a matter of counting the beat for the other tune types.
Don't be embarrassed about counting out the beat--everybody learns this when they're starting out, and I've seen even top dancers counting to themselves (lips moving and all) before stepping into a tune. And it's easy enough to confuse a jig and a slip jig, or jigs and hornpipes, until you count out the beat for a phrase or two.
Once the timing issues are settled, then your guitarist can move on to sussing out which chords go where. (Be careful what you ask for--"alternative" chords can overwhelm the tunes. Often the basic chords are all you need, if the timing is good.) Again, a good guitar teacher would be invaluable.
Hi Jen.
Get him to listen to the first Bothy Band album for a few hours and I'll guaranty you he'll learn the difference between a jig and a reel. There's lots of very strong rhythm playing by Donal lunny on Guitar and Bouzouki.
Oh, boy; this is a sticky topic around our house, too. My poor, guitar and mandolin playing, bluegrass-loving husband always gets this Look on his face when I ask him to give me some backup on a new set of tunes I'm working on. We have the discussion about the differences between jigs, reels, strathspeys, waltz, air, you name it at least once a week; I can't see what the big problem is, but then I listen to the stuff a lot. He also has some issues with the chord progressions and why the heck do they need so many chord changes in one measure?????
We are still married, ;-] and are planning to go to a series of classes for backup instruments playing Scottish/Irish tunes that start in a couple of weeks.
In the meantime, jig = pineapple, pineapple, pineapple. (Thanks, Cynthia, it helps out).
Eliot's reply raises a common issue: people think they can play along to Irish trad because they're good in some other genre. But the rhythms won't be familiar. Even a reel in 4/4 needs to be backed differently than your standard rock song in 4/4. The emphasis is different (rock, bluegrass, blues, country...most other genres favor a back beat, where the emphasis lands between the downbeats). And few other genres feature tunes in 9/8 (slip jigs).
So don't let your accompanist expect mastery of another form will make Irish music "easy." It's not overly difficult, but it can feel that way until they get familiar with the timing.
Er...Jen...does he *want* to learn the diff between all the types of tunes, or not? If he wants to learn, there's a godawful lot of ways for him to learn about it, a lot of it free out on the internet, so it's odd that he hasn't learned it if he wants to, it's not that hard. If it's that he's having a hard time learning from *you* specifically (and that's quite common, my darling husband routinely ignores most of what I tell him even though he knows I know better than he does about this stuff), get him some tutors like the John Doyle or Gavin Ralston or Mad for Trad videos and CDs or such to start out with.
Also, start buying him CDs with really stellar backers on them -- The Ring Sessions with James Kelly and Zan McLeod is a good one, so is the live album of Martin Hayes and Dennis Cahill, anything with John Doyle (I like the new Liz Carroll album, too), same with Donal Lunny, to mention a few with very different styles of backing, and of course many more abound; what're everyone else's favorite CDs for backers?
A few listens to those sort of quality backers working away will interest any backer worth anything. Point out things that you like the backers doing on the recordings during dinner and such. Enthuse about the quality of the music during casual listening. Ask him his opinion of this backer and that backer, ask which style of backing he likes and how he thinks they fit in (or don't) with the person they're accompanying.
Theres a fiddler at my regular sesh - he's a really nice guy, and a seriously good fiddler most of the time - the problem occurs if somebody else starts a tune he knows. He comes in a couple of bars later at a speed which seems intended to "catch up with everyone else" but usually has the effect of forcing the starter to speed up. Afterwards - if the tune doesn't descend into total chaos - he looks round and says 'crikey - you played that a bit fast for me'.
For a while there was a lady bodhran player who would join in jigs but played the 1-2-3 as the first 3 beats of a 3/4 time, a sort of 1-2-3-blank 1-2-3-blank, and then wonder why you had a problem with the timing.
Backing Trad dance tunes on Guitar is very rewarding and will improve his skills in other genres. I don't think I've ever met a trad Guitarist that couldn't play other types of music well.
I'm with Will and Zina... yer man needs to listen to lots of tunes, and lots of players, and get a feel for what he's listening to. Buy him some lessons with a local expert (not Dad) as a birthday/Christmas present.
For rhythm, a big problem is vocabulary and mnemonics, so I humbly offer the following: write words to go with the music.
To start simply: A friend once pointed out to a general (non-trad) audience "jigs are the ones that go jiggedy-jig, jiggedy-jig, jiggedy-jig, jiggedy-jig, and the reels... don't."
In order to remember tunes, I sometimes write VERY stupid lyrics, which I keep to myself but which are stupid enough to make remembering the tune easy. The same should work with rhythms, too:
Try this; emphasis on the one and the three:
This is in a Rhythm that the Irish call a Reel, and you can
Tell it from a Jig because it Has a different Feel
Jigs:
JEsus and MARy and JEsus and MARy and JEsus and MARy and JEsus and MARy...
Slip jigs:
JEsus and Mary and Joseph and
JEsus and Mary and Joseph and
JEsus and Mary and Joseph and
JEsus and Mary and Joseph and
Slides:
JEsus and Mary and Holy Saint Joseph and
JEsus and Mary and Holy Saint Joseph and
JEsus and Mary and Holy Saint Joseph and
JEsus and Mary and Holy Saint Joseph and
I've heard many times and do believe that accompaniment can be more difficult than actual melody playing. And you can be a great guitar player but if you do not understand Irish music, it's gonna be tough. Jen, I think the key here (like Zina mentioned above) is that your "other half" must REALLY and TRULY want to learn and play accompaniment to Irish music. If he really has a desire to learn it properly then he will.
My husband took a few mandolin lessons. I was hoping he might want to accompany me on flute....well......his heart wasn't really into it. So now he's back to fiddle lessons : )
I know a guy who played non-irish guitar for over 20 years. He started learning Irish flute when I started. After a couple years of learning Irish tunes and a lot about Irish trad music, he became very competent in playing guitar in the sessions. He's a total joy to have in a session. I've heard many local musicians say learning tunes and more about Irish music really helped him become a great backer. So Jen if your "other half" is truly ambitious about learning to back Irish music, get him started on a whistle.....
btw, in case many of you haven't guessed by now, Mr. Bolton has a large & diverse repertoire of songs, many of which leave our session in stitches. We can rent him out to your session for a reasonable rate if you're looking for a pick-me-up.
Heh...Joyce, I had the same thing happen -- Pete finally decided (after buying any amount of cheapo instruments on Ebay which are now littering the landscape of our living room) that he liked the bouzouki best. He has one tune down for backing (Lady Anne Montgomery's), but has since decided that he likes playing the tunes better than backing them. *sigh* I, as you, was hoping he'd turn into a sort of automatically available backer... especailly because I happen to adore the sound of the bouzouki backing. *grin* These husbands. I at least love mine to absolute death, and he's almost unconditionally willing to let me session myself without starvation from lack of working, the doll, but sometimes...! Heh.
Zina, I had the ulterior motive of getting my husband a bouzouki after he got used to the mandolin. But he likes to play tunes and prefers fiddle......
I think Joyce might well be right about good accompaniment being harder than good melody playing; compare the numbers of players you've heard in each class.
Stupid lyrics? If that is what works to develop the rhythm then fantastic. I stick my hand up at doing the same thing. I can give you rhythms using the names of football teams, fruit or nursery rhymes. I will try the religious based lyrics from above.
Oh, and Joyce, the nice thing about bouzouki is that you can play tunes on them as WELL as backing. That's what got Pete. It's harder on the mando because no one can hear you, generally. 'Course, Pete's decided on a dropped D tuning, which makes playing tunes a lot harder, he has to drop down an octave sometimes.
You ladies trying to lure your husbands into being backers -- you remind me of the school girls always trying to recruit boys to turn the jump ropes for 'em!
Ahhh....20 years ago, a guitar case was as good as a puppy for starting conversations with the lasses. Even better if it had a guitar in it. But they all wanted to hear Stairway to Heaven (I obliged) rather than Rights of Man or Temple House. Where did I go wrong....?
Of course I also went through more than one girlfriend who objected to the amount of time I spent cuddling with my guitar. One even dissolved into a long tearful diatribe comparing the anatomy of a guitar to the feminine form.....
The guitar's feminine form...Did you ever hear the tale Segovia used to tell about that? Apollo was chasing some young wench, who was so eager to preserve her virginity, prayed to Hera to help her, and Hera changed her into a tree. Apollo was so distraught at his loss, he cut down the tree and made a guitar from the wood -- and thus the curvy shape.
Rock musicians playing irish?
Just listen to that woeful collaboration between the Roling Stones and the Chieftains to know it isn't going to work.
Now imagine my situation.. a rock musician for a son and me who likes to play Bulgarian rythyms. You think you've got a problem!
The notes seem to complicate things for learners.
Trad music should be an aural tradition which can be passed on without the use of instruments.
If you can't whistle, hum or sing a tune, how can you expect to play it.?
If you can't tap out a tune rhythm on the table, that should be your starting point before you bother with the notes.
Experimenting with prose, Geoff? *grin* Oddly, I'm not sure that anyone has suggested notes, have they? A quick scan, and I don't think even one person has mentioned it, have they? Unless you count Michael's lovely lyrics as notes...
Though I should haste to make mention that if someone is paper trained, *sometimes* the notes aren't a bad place to start, though of course you don't want to stay there. Eoin O'Riabaigh once told me that he thought there wasn't anything wrong with dots any more than having more than one kind of screwdriver in your tool box is wrong.
Hi all, have written thank you to ye's now about three times - dam computer keeps crashing when I go to post it.
Have been trying to say that you have all been a great help - keep em coming. Micheal - i love the stupid lyrics idea and the strumming tips are gonna be a lot of help thank you.
Micheal / Zina guitar lessons as a birthday present are possibly a stroke of genius - or a recipe for disaster - men and pride things - ye know!! He might take offence and think I think he's cr*p (which I don't) and never play again!!! Will have to find a gentle way to broach the subject.
Maybe send him to HMV with the tunelist suggested by everyone here and hope he listens to it in the car on the way home -could be a good starting point?
For me, an important part of good accompaniment is not only getting the right chords, but also getting the right movement, or progressions from one chord to the next--or even relaxing on the chords in order to focus on a moving bass line. A player could easily chord a tune using solid blocks of chords, one per bar (and, *sigh*, most do), but it would sound much, much better if one incorporated the walks up and down the scale that are implicit in the chord structure. Hmmm... maybe I'll rewrite that paper one fine day.
>jkneale: Gentle ways to broach the subject?
- How about asking him nicely if that's what he'd like?
- How about "it's fun helping you out with those idiotic lyrics from that witless Canadian, but I really don't know enough about the guitar to make everything make sense to you." Which is probably true, nicht wahr? "Maybe when we go to [that Celtic festival] in [that town over there], you could go to one of the guitar workshops while I go to a whistle workshop." (as long as they're genuine teaching workshops, and not just musicians playing with themselves, if you catch my meaning).
- How about a Martin Hayes/Dennis Cahill CD, with a gift certificate inside for "one free course of workshops with [local teacher]"?
- How about suggesting a workshop on a technique he probably knows little about -- playing in DADGAD tuning, for example?
Don't surprise him with "lessons". Get him hooked with a "workshop". In specific circumstances, related to gifts of music lesssons, the term "workshops" will probably go over better than "lessons" for people who are prideful or insecure.
In general circumstances (related to the music or not), "you might enjoy" or "you might prefer" or "would you like...?" usually works enormously better than "you should".
Good thinking Michael, you are an angel! Pity there isn't more of a music scene with workshops and all over here. Things do happen every now and again, I'll keep an eye out for them.
Neil - does your son listen to Queens of the Stone Age? Not only do they do rock songs in 3/4 - quite an exotic time sig for Rock N Roll - they even have one song in 5/4 on their (stupendous) album 'Songs for the Deaf'. Rhythmically, there's all kinds of stuff going on with them - the drummer is phenomenal, but all the players feed into the rhythmic mix in a pretty sophisticated way. It's great stuff. So, y'know - all is not lost!
Zina - to my mind anyway, if someone uses the word "play", I assume the notes are involved, but no matter.
And yes, I do like the very Catholic rhythms. (The only method they are allowed to use.)
On jigs I usually like DduDdu (DOWN-down-up DOWN-down-up) over DudDud, somehow the rhythm tends to fall in easier for me. Plus when the second is missing it's more natural D-uD-u, as the pickup note is naturally an up-pick. Just something to try, if you like.
Vulcan, I disagree with the technique you espouse, but good on you for phrasing it as that way; as a suggestion. My dictates should be taken in the same way, as suggestions, even though I know I'm 100% right [grin]. Whatever works for you and the music is paramount.
For me, I find that the emphases within a triplet are generally
1 strongest
2 weakest
3 stronger than 2, but weaker than 1
so (again, for me) the DudDud model works. It is hard to acquire the discipline do to D2d consistently instead of instead of D2u, but it helps to keep me from falling off the bike when things get faster.
JIM - thanks for mentioning the bent brief. Remember me - Low D Jen?????? Hows it all going down there. Lost Cats email address - maybe you can forward it too me. Will try and get down to see you all sometime - when the finances allow. Have been playing tunes around the world this year. Worked in greece, sailed across the atlantic, spent the winter in the carribean playing reels to reggae rhythms, pretty crazy - but pretty cool too. Am now back on the Isle of Man if anyone fancies popping up for a session!! Love to all down in Southampton. Keep in touch.
Hi Jen! Nice to hear from you. Low D John was asking about you (he txtd you from my mobile a few times...students, eh?! ...Will e-mail you Cat's details. Look forward to hearing thoses reggae rhythm reels at the sesh - I can't wait to see Tim's the Traddy's grimacing face when you do!!
Ha, would be a beauty that one!! Ever heard of a band called Kila? Something else I'm sure Tim would be very disaproving of that as well!! Lemonade and Buns is a pretty good album of theirs - don't really know what to describe it as - but I reckon it's worth a listen.
Cheers for Cats email, guess you saw her at the sess last night?
John still knocking round there as well? What about Sophie -dare I ask? My mobile no. has changed now English phone was too expensive on the Island - oh yeah and they cut me off anyway. Will pass details to Cat. Nice to hear you're all alright and Tim is still his usual self. Now I know your on this site I will have to start watching what I say!!!!
Take it easy Jim, let me know of any tunes I need to learn - you kinda know the stuff I like.......
Please ease my frustration!!
Please ease my frustration!!
Hi all,
A wee puzzle for ye. I am a low whistle player, I have good sense of rhythm, reasonable and varied repertoire, have played plenty of sessions in my time - have even played for dancers - so my timing can't be that bad (actually used to be a dancer). Problem arises that my other half is a guitar player - but not from a real trad background. He enjoys the music and all - but we are having so much difficulty when it comes to him accompanying me. I play D whistle, so for him G, C and D chords work fine, but playing in time can be such a major problem sometimes, the difference in timing of jigs, reels, marches waltzes, polkas etc, just seems to be too much for him to distinguish them all. I learned to play by ear, so my understanding of musical notation is limited - his understanding is none-existent. I need to somehow figure out a way of explaining the differences, which he can understand and play. I also want some more interesting chords!! My Dad on the other hand is an excellent guitar player - totally trad background all his life (he's actually a fiddle player really), he seems to understand or just does it and it sounds great. Unfortunately he is a crap teacher (no patience) and rarely gets to sessions these days. Can some-one help, coz I love playing, I really love playing - until someone joins in with the wrong timing, wrong rhythm - just wrong. Arghhhhhhhh - tis so frustrating!!!!
Jen
# Posted on September 8th 2003 by jkneale
More to add to the fire
My sons, one plays bass and drums, the other piano. I ask them to simply play something in rhythm so that I can then pick a tune that will fit their rhythm (giving them EVERYTHING I can to make it work), and once I start playing, it goes every which way and falls apart. And both of these boys are in rock bands.
Maybe I'm the problem
--Eliot
# Posted on September 8th 2003 by Eliot
Re: Please ease my frustration!!
Your guitarist needs to *listen* to a whole lot of trad music. And take some lessons. Or play without him/her--the music doesn't "need" accompaniment. So if s/he *wants* to play along, insist that s/he learn to do it passably well.
Even if your timing is perfect, whistle tends not to be the easiest instrument to follow. Another picked instrument (banjo or bouzouki, say) would probably be easier for your guitarist to hear the beat. But it can be done regardless.
None of which helps much, eh? So Start slowly. Force him to count out the beat. Play a double jig (Connaughtman's Rambles, say, or My Darling Asleep) for him and point out how the beat goes:
ONE-two-three ONE-two-three
On guitar, that tends to translate into strumming or picking as:
DOWN-up-down DOWN-up-down
Now play nothing but double jigs for an hour or two. He'll start to get the hang of it.
Next, try a straightforward reel.
ONE-two-three-four ONE-two-three-four
The strumming pattern will go something like:
DOWN-up-down-up DOWN-up-down-up
And play nothing but reels for a couple of hours. Then switch between reels and jigs so he can hear the difference. From there, it's just a matter of counting the beat for the other tune types.
Don't be embarrassed about counting out the beat--everybody learns this when they're starting out, and I've seen even top dancers counting to themselves (lips moving and all) before stepping into a tune. And it's easy enough to confuse a jig and a slip jig, or jigs and hornpipes, until you count out the beat for a phrase or two.
Once the timing issues are settled, then your guitarist can move on to sussing out which chords go where. (Be careful what you ask for--"alternative" chords can overwhelm the tunes. Often the basic chords are all you need, if the timing is good.) Again, a good guitar teacher would be invaluable.
Good luck.
# Posted on September 8th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Please ease my frustration!!
Hi Jen.
Get him to listen to the first Bothy Band album for a few hours and I'll guaranty you he'll learn the difference between a jig and a reel. There's lots of very strong rhythm playing by Donal lunny on Guitar and Bouzouki.
All the best PP
# Posted on September 8th 2003 by Pied Piper
Re: Please ease my frustration!!
Oh, boy; this is a sticky topic around our house, too. My poor, guitar and mandolin playing, bluegrass-loving husband always gets this Look on his face when I ask him to give me some backup on a new set of tunes I'm working on. We have the discussion about the differences between jigs, reels, strathspeys, waltz, air, you name it at least once a week; I can't see what the big problem is, but then I listen to the stuff a lot. He also has some issues with the chord progressions and why the heck do they need so many chord changes in one measure?????
We are still married, ;-] and are planning to go to a series of classes for backup instruments playing Scottish/Irish tunes that start in a couple of weeks.
In the meantime, jig = pineapple, pineapple, pineapple. (Thanks, Cynthia, it helps out).
Batlady
# Posted on September 8th 2003 by Batlady
P.S.
Eliot's reply raises a common issue: people think they can play along to Irish trad because they're good in some other genre. But the rhythms won't be familiar. Even a reel in 4/4 needs to be backed differently than your standard rock song in 4/4. The emphasis is different (rock, bluegrass, blues, country...most other genres favor a back beat, where the emphasis lands between the downbeats). And few other genres feature tunes in 9/8 (slip jigs).
So don't let your accompanist expect mastery of another form will make Irish music "easy." It's not overly difficult, but it can feel that way until they get familiar with the timing.
# Posted on September 8th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Please ease my frustration!!
Er...Jen...does he *want* to learn the diff between all the types of tunes, or not? If he wants to learn, there's a godawful lot of ways for him to learn about it, a lot of it free out on the internet, so it's odd that he hasn't learned it if he wants to, it's not that hard. If it's that he's having a hard time learning from *you* specifically (and that's quite common, my darling husband routinely ignores most of what I tell him even though he knows I know better than he does about this stuff), get him some tutors like the John Doyle or Gavin Ralston or Mad for Trad videos and CDs or such to start out with.
Also, start buying him CDs with really stellar backers on them -- The Ring Sessions with James Kelly and Zan McLeod is a good one, so is the live album of Martin Hayes and Dennis Cahill, anything with John Doyle (I like the new Liz Carroll album, too), same with Donal Lunny, to mention a few with very different styles of backing, and of course many more abound; what're everyone else's favorite CDs for backers?
A few listens to those sort of quality backers working away will interest any backer worth anything. Point out things that you like the backers doing on the recordings during dinner and such. Enthuse about the quality of the music during casual listening. Ask him his opinion of this backer and that backer, ask which style of backing he likes and how he thinks they fit in (or don't) with the person they're accompanying.
My two cents.
Zina
# Posted on September 8th 2003 by Zina Lee
And another rhythm problem is ....
Theres a fiddler at my regular sesh - he's a really nice guy, and a seriously good fiddler most of the time - the problem occurs if somebody else starts a tune he knows. He comes in a couple of bars later at a speed which seems intended to "catch up with everyone else" but usually has the effect of forcing the starter to speed up. Afterwards - if the tune doesn't descend into total chaos - he looks round and says 'crikey - you played that a bit fast for me'.
For a while there was a lady bodhran player who would join in jigs but played the 1-2-3 as the first 3 beats of a 3/4 time, a sort of 1-2-3-blank 1-2-3-blank, and then wonder why you had a problem with the timing.
# Posted on September 8th 2003 by showaddydadito
Re: Please ease my frustration!!
Backing Trad dance tunes on Guitar is very rewarding and will improve his skills in other genres. I don't think I've ever met a trad Guitarist that couldn't play other types of music well.
PP
.
# Posted on September 8th 2003 by Pied Piper
Re: Please ease my frustration!!
I'm with Will and Zina... yer man needs to listen to lots of tunes, and lots of players, and get a feel for what he's listening to. Buy him some lessons with a local expert (not Dad) as a birthday/Christmas present.
For rhythm, a big problem is vocabulary and mnemonics, so I humbly offer the following: write words to go with the music.
To start simply: A friend once pointed out to a general (non-trad) audience "jigs are the ones that go jiggedy-jig, jiggedy-jig, jiggedy-jig, jiggedy-jig, and the reels... don't."
In order to remember tunes, I sometimes write VERY stupid lyrics, which I keep to myself but which are stupid enough to make remembering the tune easy. The same should work with rhythms, too:
Try this; emphasis on the one and the three:
This is in a Rhythm that the Irish call a Reel, and you can
Tell it from a Jig because it Has a different Feel
Jigs:
JEsus and MARy and JEsus and MARy and JEsus and MARy and JEsus and MARy...
Slip jigs:
JEsus and Mary and Joseph and
JEsus and Mary and Joseph and
JEsus and Mary and Joseph and
JEsus and Mary and Joseph and
Slides:
JEsus and Mary and Holy Saint Joseph and
JEsus and Mary and Holy Saint Joseph and
JEsus and Mary and Holy Saint Joseph and
JEsus and Mary and Holy Saint Joseph and
---Michael B.
# Posted on September 8th 2003 by MichaelBolton
Re: Please ease my frustration!!
LOL -- Michael, those are *classic*.... hehehehe...
# Posted on September 8th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Please ease my frustration!!
I've heard many times and do believe that accompaniment can be more difficult than actual melody playing. And you can be a great guitar player but if you do not understand Irish music, it's gonna be tough. Jen, I think the key here (like Zina mentioned above) is that your "other half" must REALLY and TRULY want to learn and play accompaniment to Irish music. If he really has a desire to learn it properly then he will.
My husband took a few mandolin lessons. I was hoping he might want to accompany me on flute....well......his heart wasn't really into it. So now he's back to fiddle lessons : )
I know a guy who played non-irish guitar for over 20 years. He started learning Irish flute when I started. After a couple years of learning Irish tunes and a lot about Irish trad music, he became very competent in playing guitar in the sessions. He's a total joy to have in a session. I've heard many local musicians say learning tunes and more about Irish music really helped him become a great backer. So Jen if your "other half" is truly ambitious about learning to back Irish music, get him started on a whistle.....
Just my .02 cents.....
Joyce
# Posted on September 8th 2003 by JMH
Re: Please ease my frustration!!
Michael B. -
"...which I keep to myself..." ?
You misleading rascal...
btw, in case many of you haven't guessed by now, Mr. Bolton has a large & diverse repertoire of songs, many of which leave our session in stitches. We can rent him out to your session for a reasonable rate if you're looking for a pick-me-up.
Greg
# Posted on September 8th 2003 by octogreg
Non-backer husbands...
Heh...Joyce, I had the same thing happen -- Pete finally decided (after buying any amount of cheapo instruments on Ebay which are now littering the landscape of our living room) that he liked the bouzouki best. He has one tune down for backing (Lady Anne Montgomery's), but has since decided that he likes playing the tunes better than backing them. *sigh* I, as you, was hoping he'd turn into a sort of automatically available backer... especailly because I happen to adore the sound of the bouzouki backing. *grin* These husbands. I at least love mine to absolute death, and he's almost unconditionally willing to let me session myself without starvation from lack of working, the doll, but sometimes...! Heh.
# Posted on September 8th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Please ease my frustration!!
Zina, I had the ulterior motive of getting my husband a bouzouki after he got used to the mandolin. But he likes to play tunes and prefers fiddle......
ooooh! 5:00!!! bye : )
Joyce
# Posted on September 8th 2003 by JMH
Re: Please ease my frustration!!
Octogreg, I share the merely stupid lyrics freely. You haven't yet heard the VERY stupid ones.
---Michael B.
# Posted on September 8th 2003 by MichaelBolton
Accompaniment harder?
I think Joyce might well be right about good accompaniment being harder than good melody playing; compare the numbers of players you've heard in each class.
---Michael B.
# Posted on September 8th 2003 by MichaelBolton
Re: Please ease my frustration!!
Stupid lyrics? If that is what works to develop the rhythm then fantastic. I stick my hand up at doing the same thing. I can give you rhythms using the names of football teams, fruit or nursery rhymes. I will try the religious based lyrics from above.
Cheers
Simon
# Posted on September 8th 2003 by sjt
Re: Please ease my frustration!!
Ooo, Simon, do us ones with US football teams, yeah? I will then be able to amuse my husband with them...
# Posted on September 8th 2003 by Zina Lee
Oh, and Joyce, the nice thing about bouzouki is that you can play tunes on them as WELL as backing. That's what got Pete. It's harder on the mando because no one can hear you, generally. 'Course, Pete's decided on a dropped D tuning, which makes playing tunes a lot harder, he has to drop down an octave sometimes.
# Posted on September 8th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Please ease my frustration!!
You ladies trying to lure your husbands into being backers -- you remind me of the school girls always trying to recruit boys to turn the jump ropes for 'em!
# Posted on September 8th 2003 by cuchulain54
Re: Please ease my frustration!!
What's scary, Paul, is that they probably went hubby shopping with "backer" potential in mind the whole time, *grin*
# Posted on September 8th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Please ease my frustration!!
As in, "ooh, check the zouk out on THAT guy!" Or, "Is that a guitar pick in your pocket, or are you just glad to see me?"
# Posted on September 8th 2003 by cuchulain54
Re: Please ease my frustration!!
Mind you, a "long hairy pick" *grin*
Ahhh....20 years ago, a guitar case was as good as a puppy for starting conversations with the lasses. Even better if it had a guitar in it. But they all wanted to hear Stairway to Heaven (I obliged) rather than Rights of Man or Temple House. Where did I go wrong....?
Of course I also went through more than one girlfriend who objected to the amount of time I spent cuddling with my guitar. One even dissolved into a long tearful diatribe comparing the anatomy of a guitar to the feminine form.....
# Posted on September 8th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Please ease my frustration!!
The guitar's feminine form...Did you ever hear the tale Segovia used to tell about that? Apollo was chasing some young wench, who was so eager to preserve her virginity, prayed to Hera to help her, and Hera changed her into a tree. Apollo was so distraught at his loss, he cut down the tree and made a guitar from the wood -- and thus the curvy shape.
# Posted on September 8th 2003 by cuchulain54
Re: Please ease my frustration!!
You two. We're not going to allow you in the same room, you know that. *grin*
# Posted on September 8th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Please ease my frustration!!
Backer fetish! *snort*
# Posted on September 8th 2003 by emily_bmore
Re: Please ease my frustration!!
Backerphilia (and you don't have to go near Philadelphia to get it....
# Posted on September 8th 2003 by Will CPT
Re: Please ease my frustration!!
Rock musicians playing irish?
Just listen to that woeful collaboration between the Roling Stones and the Chieftains to know it isn't going to work.
Now imagine my situation.. a rock musician for a son and me who likes to play Bulgarian rythyms. You think you've got a problem!
# Posted on September 8th 2003 by _________
Re: Please ease my frustration!!
The notes seem to complicate things for learners.
Trad music should be an aural tradition which can be passed on without the use of instruments.
If you can't whistle, hum or sing a tune, how can you expect to play it.?
If you can't tap out a tune rhythm on the table, that should be your starting point before you bother with the notes.
# Posted on September 8th 2003 by geoffwright
Re: Please ease my frustration!!
Experimenting with prose, Geoff? *grin* Oddly, I'm not sure that anyone has suggested notes, have they? A quick scan, and I don't think even one person has mentioned it, have they? Unless you count Michael's lovely lyrics as notes...
# Posted on September 9th 2003 by Zina Lee
Though I should haste to make mention that if someone is paper trained, *sometimes* the notes aren't a bad place to start, though of course you don't want to stay there. Eoin O'Riabaigh once told me that he thought there wasn't anything wrong with dots any more than having more than one kind of screwdriver in your tool box is wrong.
# Posted on September 9th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Please ease my frustration!!
If you want some alternative words for rhythms, try:
apples and oranges (jig)
apples, bananas and oranges (slip jig)
# Posted on September 9th 2003 by izzymac
Re: Please ease my frustration!!
Hi all, have written thank you to ye's now about three times - dam computer keeps crashing when I go to post it.
Have been trying to say that you have all been a great help - keep em coming. Micheal - i love the stupid lyrics idea and the strumming tips are gonna be a lot of help thank you.
Micheal / Zina guitar lessons as a birthday present are possibly a stroke of genius - or a recipe for disaster - men and pride things - ye know!! He might take offence and think I think he's cr*p (which I don't) and never play again!!! Will have to find a gentle way to broach the subject.
Maybe send him to HMV with the tunelist suggested by everyone here and hope he listens to it in the car on the way home -could be a good starting point?
Will let you know how we get on.
Thanks all. Gotta go 5 o clock finally
# Posted on September 9th 2003 by jkneale
Re: Please ease my frustration!!
>Zina: It's harder on the mando because no one can hear you, generally.
You make that sound like a disadvantage.
>jkneale: keep em coming
This fellow has a fine idea, but the explanation is a little abstruse.
http://members.aol.com/k3mara/theory.pdf
For me, an important part of good accompaniment is not only getting the right chords, but also getting the right movement, or progressions from one chord to the next--or even relaxing on the chords in order to focus on a moving bass line. A player could easily chord a tune using solid blocks of chords, one per bar (and, *sigh*, most do), but it would sound much, much better if one incorporated the walks up and down the scale that are implicit in the chord structure. Hmmm... maybe I'll rewrite that paper one fine day.
>jkneale: Gentle ways to broach the subject?
- How about asking him nicely if that's what he'd like?
- How about "it's fun helping you out with those idiotic lyrics from that witless Canadian, but I really don't know enough about the guitar to make everything make sense to you." Which is probably true, nicht wahr? "Maybe when we go to [that Celtic festival] in [that town over there], you could go to one of the guitar workshops while I go to a whistle workshop." (as long as they're genuine teaching workshops, and not just musicians playing with themselves, if you catch my meaning).
- How about a Martin Hayes/Dennis Cahill CD, with a gift certificate inside for "one free course of workshops with [local teacher]"?
- How about suggesting a workshop on a technique he probably knows little about -- playing in DADGAD tuning, for example?
Don't surprise him with "lessons". Get him hooked with a "workshop". In specific circumstances, related to gifts of music lesssons, the term "workshops" will probably go over better than "lessons" for people who are prideful or insecure.
In general circumstances (related to the music or not), "you might enjoy" or "you might prefer" or "would you like...?" usually works enormously better than "you should".
---Michael B.
# Posted on September 9th 2003 by MichaelBolton
Re: Please ease my frustration!!
Good thinking Michael, you are an angel! Pity there isn't more of a music scene with workshops and all over here. Things do happen every now and again, I'll keep an eye out for them.
Thank you.
# Posted on September 9th 2003 by jkneale
Re: Please ease my frustration!!
Neil - does your son listen to Queens of the Stone Age? Not only do they do rock songs in 3/4 - quite an exotic time sig for Rock N Roll - they even have one song in 5/4 on their (stupendous) album 'Songs for the Deaf'. Rhythmically, there's all kinds of stuff going on with them - the drummer is phenomenal, but all the players feed into the rhythmic mix in a pretty sophisticated way. It's great stuff. So, y'know - all is not lost!
# Posted on September 9th 2003 by Nell
Re: Please ease my frustration!!
Zina - to my mind anyway, if someone uses the word "play", I assume the notes are involved, but no matter.
And yes, I do like the very Catholic rhythms. (The only method they are allowed to use.)
# Posted on September 9th 2003 by geoffwright
Re: Please ease my frustration!!
On jigs I usually like DduDdu (DOWN-down-up DOWN-down-up) over DudDud, somehow the rhythm tends to fall in easier for me. Plus when the second is missing it's more natural D-uD-u, as the pickup note is naturally an up-pick. Just something to try, if you like.
# Posted on September 10th 2003 by vulcan666
Re: Please ease my frustration!!
Our (occasional) guitarist in the Bent Brief Southampton session plays Dud-Udu-Dud-Udu for jigs - its sounds good.
Jim
# Posted on September 10th 2003 by Worldfiddler
That's the way to do it...
Vulcan, I disagree with the technique you espouse, but good on you for phrasing it as that way; as a suggestion. My dictates should be taken in the same way, as suggestions, even though I know I'm 100% right [grin]. Whatever works for you and the music is paramount.
For me, I find that the emphases within a triplet are generally
1 strongest
2 weakest
3 stronger than 2, but weaker than 1
so (again, for me) the DudDud model works. It is hard to acquire the discipline do to D2d consistently instead of instead of D2u, but it helps to keep me from falling off the bike when things get faster.
---Michael B.
# Posted on September 10th 2003 by MichaelBolton
JIM remember me???????
JIM - thanks for mentioning the bent brief. Remember me - Low D Jen?????? Hows it all going down there. Lost Cats email address - maybe you can forward it too me. Will try and get down to see you all sometime - when the finances allow. Have been playing tunes around the world this year. Worked in greece, sailed across the atlantic, spent the winter in the carribean playing reels to reggae rhythms, pretty crazy - but pretty cool too. Am now back on the Isle of Man if anyone fancies popping up for a session!! Love to all down in Southampton. Keep in touch.
Jen
# Posted on September 11th 2003 by jkneale
Re: Please ease my frustration!!
Hi Jen! Nice to hear from you. Low D John was asking about you (he txtd you from my mobile a few times...students, eh?!
...Will e-mail you Cat's details. Look forward to hearing thoses reggae rhythm reels at the sesh - I can't wait to see Tim's the Traddy's grimacing face when you do!! 
Jim
# Posted on September 11th 2003 by Worldfiddler
Re: Please ease my frustration!!
Ha, would be a beauty that one!! Ever heard of a band called Kila? Something else I'm sure Tim would be very disaproving of that as well!! Lemonade and Buns is a pretty good album of theirs - don't really know what to describe it as - but I reckon it's worth a listen.
Cheers for Cats email, guess you saw her at the sess last night?
John still knocking round there as well? What about Sophie -dare I ask? My mobile no. has changed now English phone was too expensive on the Island - oh yeah and they cut me off anyway. Will pass details to Cat. Nice to hear you're all alright and Tim is still his usual self. Now I know your on this site I will have to start watching what I say!!!!
Take it easy Jim, let me know of any tunes I need to learn - you kinda know the stuff I like.......
Jen
# Posted on September 11th 2003 by jkneale