The Session >> Discussions >> The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Comments
The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
In this regard I think sessions are, 95% of them, are a complete waste of time and, in fact, might hinder more than help. On the other hand, sometimes during the musical maelstrom a lone player will eke out a tune or two and it is for those moments that they are useful -- musically speaking. Socially they're fine. But I am coming to feel that they are not the place to learn and/or understand the finer points of the tradition. That might be a solo affair. Agree? Disagree?
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
LW....possibly. In fact, I'd go further and say that sessions actually *encourage* bad playing and bad habits and, more importantly, NOT listening carefully to oneself in a musical way. It all gets lost in the group effort of playing. Now, that might be sociable and the social aspects of that effor even laudable (connecting with one's fellow man over a pint, some chat, etc. all fine) -- but it isn't musical.
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
This isn't a wind up SW -- I truly believe sessions encourage misbegotten goals, and those goals f* up the music and apprentice's ability to play it. Sessions are quite possibly the worst thing to ever happen to ITM from certain points of view. Let's be honest! They encourage people to learn to many tunes (badly) and play them (badly) and instill a false sense of confidence that we are truly "getting" it....when we're not.
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Do you propose a ban, or a boycot? There a few individuals at my local session who's efforts would be better spent at church bingo; but should they be banished? Just say the word!
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Good, relevant points in that post, with which I generally agree. However, it's the session itself that is the deciding factor: a large number of players of varying abilities, including a clutch of bodhrans and guitars, in a noisy crowded pub is not conducive to learning and appreciating the music - that's the 95%. I must say I don't enjoy that type of session now (probably old age coming on). On the other hand, there are sessions - the 5% -(not necessarily always Irish, I might add) with not much more than half a dozen well-matched players in a not-too noisy environment where the music is not only played but discussed, and the musicians learn from each other, as well as entertaining the pub (always an important aspect).
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
If you play in sh'ite sessions the music is gonna be sh'ite. Go to good sessions, with just a small number of players. Then you're forced to sink or swim. Otherwise don't complain.
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Here's my 2 Canadian or Euro cents...
Yes, you're more than likely going to find a lousy musician or two at a session, such as those with more enthusiasm than ability. (hope I don't fall into this category!).
What I really find most useful about sessions is that I get exposed to tunes that I might not have heard otherwise. I don't learn them there at the session, but I ask for the name of any tune that particularly grabs me and then go away and learn it in my own time, and hopefully have it up to scratch by the time the next session comes around.
What I'm trying to say is that a session motivates me to put more effort into learning tunes.
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
LH,AQ, Mr. Pipe
I agree with you for the most part.
But a caution: Let us not cast stones at guitars or bodhrans....
it's not the invidual instruments [good or bad] that are the problem....the problem is the session ITSELF. It seems to me that session simply encourage too fast playing of badly articulated tunes. It sets false goals for people who don't know any better [ie, learns tons of tunes and you're a trad player]. Play them fast and you're suddenly an "accomplished" player, etc etc.
But worse than that, it encourages 90% of people playing this stuff to ACTUALLY BELIEVE they are playing [and i mean this in the real sense of the word] irish music.
I think Sessions have become [how? can someone help me here?] by and large are an adult fantasy.
They are an adult sandbox for people who have jobs, mortgages, partners, affairs, and Visa cards.
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
OK, I've got my mail and helmet, ready to go.
I see what you're getting at, and I will say this. I like to play with fewer musicians, no doubt. I prefer a small session. When you get the wall of sound going on, as a fiddler, there’s only one possible way to make noise, and that’s with maximum bow pressure from the right hand. Any subtleties of music that one can generate with your bow hand go right out the window, and it’s just ‘make maximum volume’, which is tiresome. Many of the finer things you can do physically with a violin go right out the window in a giant pack of musicians all cranking out at top volume.
However, I sacrifice that in the winter for having packs of snowbirds to play with. I know in the summer here in Florida it will just be a few of us die-hard year long residents, and soon there will be a lovely, gentle sound of flute, fiddler and guitar again, with a few other assorted characters from time to time. There’s nothing like the sound of those three instruments happily making music. There’s a magic that happens when the flute and a gently played fiddle cooperate merrily, and this, I think, is what you are speaking of, true music, musicians able to hear and react to each other, not just a giant free-for-all, let’s all crank it up and tear into it as hard as humanly possible.
However, traditionally, there is something to be said for that giant, monster sound. Dancing, for example. In the days before PAs and amplification, a giant sound had to be made for the dancers to hear. I’ve been reading about the dance halls in Boston in the 20s-50s. Flutes were virtually non-existent; they didn’t care to play in the halls as it was useless, just giant accordions to crank up the volume for the dancers, and loud fiddlers with tight bows and heavy bow hands.
Small sessions can make music and have teaching going on as well. Larger ones are more for the social aspect, I can see this. I think the dominant players in the session generate the session’s personality as well, so…hmm…
“…you give much to chew on, young Skywalker.” [/yoda voice]
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Your figure of 95% may well be correct, I have absolutely no way of knowing. But having visited a fair few session in my time, I'd say it's a reasonable guesstimate. There are so many things that can conspire to it being useless, from bodhrans to multiple guitars to faffing, to noodling etc etc. This list of no nos is endless.
However, probably 80% of when and where I play now, where mine and my mates' group effort of listening, learning and playing is most certainly not a waste of time. How is this achieved? By being consistently ruthless over many years with anyone who commits any of the offences on the above endless list.
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Regarding lazyhound's description of the two kinds of session, we have both - the first kind from 9pm to about midnight and the second from midnight to whenever we finally get chucked out (I think it was 2-30 or later this morning). Works well, and I wouldn't miss any of it for the world!
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
See, and there's the city mouse/country mouse thing again.
How does Llig do it? In a big music hotbed, he must police his session with an iron fist. Fair play.
How do we do it here? We're in the boonies. We have die-hard lovers who care, good friends, good musicians. Visitors and hangers-on see it and don't tread on our toes. Never a need to lay down the law.
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Let me cite the abysmal session cds put out by Comhaltas...which I own btw. Why would one want to aspire to playing that? in that way? I'm not saying I can play that "fast" or even "that many" tunes as evidenced on the various editions in that series....but I have come to realize that I don't want to play like that.....and I think by and large....the rise of the mediocre sessions has led the majority of us astray...with false goals and even worse, false ideas of what the music is about or should sound like. I'm not talking about that upper 5% of sessions where in fact one could go and not play a note and actually learn something.
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
oooooohhh.
Music is more than the playing of it....I can do that quite well at home and the dog will sleep next to me and the parakeet will chirp merrily. Aside from the zen of the playing...what good is playing alone. No 'sounds of trees falling in forests' metaphors please.
Music is social, particularly Irish music... and session music essentially..whether you approach it as competitive, an opportunity to drink with like minded (and not so like minded), or you are into the preservation of tradition.... Playing alone is, well, boring.
Mtodd...were you concerned that the past couple of days the postings have been, well, very mundane and functional instead of being of elevated level of intellect and deep phililogocal import?
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Wish I was good at Photoshop. Can someone stick the Comhaltas logo on the Death Star for me? [ducks, runs for cover]
No no, fair play to them, haven't they done some good? We've batted that one around on here many a time. Perhaps it's the 'doing no harm' portion that leaves some to be desired?
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Well zippy, as long as everyone leaves their parts in their pants and not on the table, things should be just right as rain again in no time, I'd wager.
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
zippy I disagree strongly! playing alone is not boring but fulfilling.
I can certainly understand where mtodd is coming from and agree to a certain extent with the first post. I cant comment on the cds he mentions because I haven't heard them but surely they are OK if not excellent? sound clips anyone?
For me the joy is in the tunes, sessions are fun right enough but no more than an occasional hit for me. I love the depth of exploration, the excitement of new tunes, the endless and varied possibilities of expression and ornamentation. I do feel that a lot of this is lost in session environments unless they are pretty low key quite friendly affairs. I love the lyrical beauty of the tunes and I agree that a lot of this is lost at many sessions... but not all!
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
If it's the Foinn Seisiun series that's being referred to, I have them too. I don't listen to them as performances, but rather as an aid to learn tunes (my ear is not quite up to the necessary speed to pick up tunes note-for-note from Bothy Band recordings!)
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
in some ways you're right - noisy pub, people not understanding what they're listening too etc half p*ssed players ... not great for the music at all, As a whistle player it's often a waste of time playing in that environment - you can't be heard, and the intimacy of the whistle is lost, But there are good sessions with small no of players and people listening and then it can be magic. You learn a lot from playing with others and other instruments etc so I think a good group vibe can be fantastic - but i'm as happy playing in someone's kitchen as i am in a pub
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
It's essentially a pass-time. If it ends up with some music happening all the better, but I never go to a session expecting it. Hoping maybe. If you don't live somewhere where there are loads of great players hope is always going to come above expectation. It can be frustrating but then we can't all live in Ennis.
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Paul, yes, point taken. I suppose we live in eternal hope.
A while back I was at a session and had the joy of sitting beside a really great fiddle player for the whole evening...While others around me butchered the tunes he played away adding all these wonderful bits and flourishes and generally it sounded great. He didn't lead, didn't grandstand, just played like everyone. And it was a bit of a revelation. On the one hand there was this great wall of banshee sound and the wonderful fiddle playing of this guy doing his thing. The contrast couldn't have been greater. I taped a few tunes and it was very interesting to hear how at insanely opposite ends of the session spectrum the two approaches were! I mean, it should have been obvious to me long ago I suppose. His was actual music and the rest of us were pretenders to the music. It wasn't depressing or even humbling per se, it was relevatory. It made me see/hear what Llig has been on about over the years. And his approach to the music [the fiddle player's] was the kind of thing one rejoices in finding. 'Tired' old tunes that suddenly lived without fireworks. Great phrasing, lift, swing, articulation, drive...and none of it 'work'. No gritting of teeth and staring at the floor in concentration. Ah, it was a joy to hear music as it should be played.
And this is something one could do perfectly well by onself, as Ionanna points out. You don't need a session. In fact, maybe it's what us apprentice's should be doing more....listening realistically to ourselves and the music and not getting caught up so much in "session pressures" of speed, expectations and endless badly played repertoire.
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
long ago and far away, there was a town that had two sessions. the first one was made up of truly fine musicians, most of whom had long experience in the tradition, and the second was attended by musicians who often weren't great, or were on their way to being great, or even just starting out.
now, the person who told me about this town said that the people in the less accomplished session generally seemed to be having a better time than the 'high church' bunch, and that even if the music was sometimes ragged, when they were 'on', they were really lifting that music. and when the occasional hot player showed up for the evening, spirits (and music) soared.
and personal experience tells me that sometimes less accomplished musicians, if they are attuned to each other, can make music with real heart and joy in it.
The group effort of making Irish music is essentially . . .
. . . when I don't know the tune I'll listen. I do this alot. People have actually told me what I did wrong. To repeat ~ I have been told what I did wrong when I was simply sitting & listening.
It doesn't discourage me though. They're my ears & it's always use 'em or lose them.
Cheers ;)
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
The session players who are at a "Special Olympics" level (as the simply hilarious, elegantly charming Barry O would put it) need encouragement and a warm, safe place to spend their evenings. Irish music fills that bill.
Do you really want to force poor players into donning 100% hemp clothing then seeking out bonfire-lit drum circles under the wild pull of a full moon? If their playing is bad now, think how it will further suffer if there are blond, dreadlocked Druid/Pagan/Rainbow Family chicks dancing topless, lit by the rising, licking, golden flames. Think, my friends, before shunning the sloppy.
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Sigh... why is it that everything has to be reduced to a binary Good/Bad? Nothing in life is that simple, but the media wants it to be and reports it accordingly. Maybe that's where it comes from. Is rain good or bad? How about sun - good or bad? C'mon, pick one - good or bad?
Can't do it. It depends. If it's dry season here any rain is welcomed as good. If we're already flooded by several serial hurricanes and there's water standing all over heck no, we don't need and more stinkin rain.
Seems large sessions, solo play and small kitchen sessions should be viewed similarly. They all have something to offer and when you have them in an appropriate mix you are smiling. Each person's appropriate mix is likely different too by the way.
But sit in a room with your dots, ABC's and MP3 and not only are you missing out on some good insight to the music that others may give you, but only making solo music strikes me as similar to a solo version of another popular activity that is designed to be done with another person.
And only going to a mega session, or only playing with the same three players has similar issues. You miss lots. Mix it up and take what you can from each. They truly do compliment each other no? Travel the world and have some tunes with anyone who will have you.
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
wait a second...you mean there are blond dreadlocked chicks dancing around topless and I'm here playing Trip to Athlone with a whistle player, two guitarists and an old guy with an electric piano????
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
mtodd, Nate—
What I propose is nothing less than a bail-out of the whole Irish trad scene. The best players should and will be required to pay a "hornpipe tax," where they will play hornpipes, to encourage the slow players, for 83% of all future sessions. Hundreds of monitoring jobs will be created, good jobs, jobs that the trad community has wanted and so richly deserves.
This hornpipe tax is retroactive. Last week's session should have been 83% hornpipes. Slower players could have had hopes of keeping up on those. With swift passage of my proposal, what had been wrong playing will become right playing.
I have instructed that this be enacted immediately. I am only sorry that because of important, urgent appointments I have no time for questions.
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Nothing wrong with the session per se mtodd, but you are right about it being a playground for the closet fantasist. Particularly over this side of the pond. I often wonder how musicians hear themselves. What they'd think and do if they heard somebody else playing the way they did themselves. Some of the music I've heard in pubs is enough to make me leave for the sake of my own sanity yet people flail away totally oblivious to the cacophony. Besides, you're not there to learn in as much as you're there to play.
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Though every now and then, very rarely, some amazing music emerges. Those moments are worth waiting for but they're not the raison d'etre of sessions, for me anyway
Expecting it every week is one of the major causes of the heartache and mumping that's regurlarly aired on here
Pub sessions, that is. Private sessions are whatever you want them to be
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Hit the nail on the head there Bren.
And in any case, it's all about the *moment* of doing it, "performing" or just playing the tunes for the sake of them. Many of them started out in life as imperfect farmer's tunes from Ireland Scotland or even England & Wales, and that's how they'll continue their existence: commoner, imperfect, catchy, cheery folksy little numbers, played by millions of people for hundreds of years. If you want high end playing, get into classical music.
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
pure drops, your proposal sounds great in theory, but what assurances will we have that the monitoring jobs won't just be given to the banjo playing cousins of our local politicians?
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
mtodd -- Don't expect that the public session will change its ways, much less perish from this Earth. Much as I might wish some folks would find something else to do for those evenings, I know they will continue as sessioners. Can't be helped; not without some nasty machinations, anyway. That's life on this planet, man. Just you try to impose an agenda of exclusivity on something so very very public as a session and see what you end up with. Only, don't tell me if it turns out to be paradise. If it turns out to be paradise, it won't last.
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Sessions are not meant to be a way of perfecting "your" music. It's meant to be fun. If the session's sh*t, leave. The whole point of music is social, maybe next time you're stuck in a noisy session trying to hear yourself, you should stop trying to hear yourself and listen the music as a whole. Music is not about you, or your skills. It's bigger than that.
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Hi, good afternoon. I'd like to place an order. Yes, I'm calling about the topless Druid/Pagan bonfire chicks I saw advertised? Right, OK...and do you send them FedEx? Air or Ground only? I see, OK...
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Michael, are you having a slow day? I agree with you that almost all of the sessions here are ragged and often out of control, but if you ask the participants if they are enjoying themselves, most will say yes. And they do think they are good. This is encouraged by the 90% of session leaders here. Has anyone ever said slow down and listen to yourself? Don't think so. Of course if session leaders weren't paid or getting free pints, they wouldn't play with us anyway. Tunes with small groups of friends are best.
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
To what standard would you be trying to get the music to live up to? Some sessions are crap, but in my experience, session playing is often what opens the eyes of "apprentice" players, and helps them develop into good musicians... Listening to slick, overproduced recordings of virtuoso players may be inspiring, but it's certainly not going to teach you the nuances of the tradition.
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
"Listening to slick, overproduced recordings of virtuoso players may be inspiring, but it's certainly not going to teach you the nuances of the tradition."
But that's my point Rev...neither is going to sessions as far as I can divine!! Go for other reasons, sure. But not for that. At least not 95% of them. [see my anecdote above re sitting beside that wonderful fiddle player while in a session]
I think solo woodshedding and careful listening etc etc is the only way....And I still think that there has developed this almost unthinking *loyalty* ...nay, belief in the holiness of the session as purevyor of the tradition....I just can't see it, quite frankly.
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
My goodness there is a lot of angst and cynicism here today. mtodd it sounds like your local session has become rather uninspiring. Perhaps you're asking more of it that it can give. I enjoy my local sessions; some great players, some beginners. But I keep it in perspective as to what it is. What it is NOT, is an attempt at perfection.
After all, as the wise man once said, Irish music and sex are the two things you don't have to be great at in order to have perfectly enjoyable evening.
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
too right jusa. puir wee mtodd, painting himself into yet another corner. Recently at our session there is a pile of greyfriars bobbies the stench would knock you over. But occasionally it all comes right and it's worth the wait - both for players and listeners. Yes there are tossers we could do without, but angst, we don't have.
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Well, I don't think anyone with their head screwed on at least somewhat correctly thinks the session is the end all, be all of the tradition. I mean, first of all, here we are, sitting around, playing dance music...and there's no one dancing! [snickers, runs back out of the room]
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
yeah but on the other hand, if you don't mind me getting geeky about it, let's not knock "dance music" - just because it still adheres to a (possibly, I 'm not sure) 1 million year old tradition of dancing to a set of sounds produced intentionally, doesn't mean it's rubbish...old fashioned, maybe, but crap, i don't think so....
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
"they (sessions) are not the place to learn and/or understand the finer points of the tradition"
Agree absolutely, mtodd. Ideally, go to a musically fecund place in Ireland, without an instrument, and immerse yourself in every aspect of community life. When you are totally accepted, you will be able to select the most authentic keepers of tradition, and mix with them only. Then you will learn and understand the finer points. (I am assuming you really do live in Peru, and didn't grow up in Ireland).
"The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time"
Disagree absolutely. This is the way the music was created and developed. Of course, you haven't qualified which group(s) you have in mind.
"I think solo woodshedding and careful listening etc etc is the only way...."
Agree partially, depending on who you listen to. He/She/They would need to be pre-qualified (as the bankers say) or you may be led astray. Learning in a vacuum sucks. (Ducks quickly behind desk).
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
"sitting around, playing dance music...and there's no one dancing! "
True, SWFL Fiddler, and not marching in parades, or attending wakes. So what then, smooth it out so it's not danceable?
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Hi Reverend. What do you mean by 'slick overproduced recordings'? Do you mean artificially enhancing or changing the sound to cover up mistakes and make the perceived product better than it is, or do you mean paying proper attention to production values, taking time to do things properly and using good equipment to get an accurate representation of what an artist is capable of playing?
Also. Isn't it every musician's dream to be a virtuoso? In other words, isn't it every musician's dream to continue to improve his/her art, skill and knowledge to the highest possible standard? Are you saying it's OK to just be an average or not very good player, as long as you can claim some link to a tradition? It's been said before that the old greats wouldn't have turned their noses up at the technology we have today. If you were offered time in a professional studio with a fantastic engineer would you turn it down? Honestly?
Back to the topic: sessions are great fun, even if the music isn't so good sometimes. I've learnt a lot about this music and made many friends at my session. Wednesday is the new weekend for me.
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Dance music rules, who said it doesn't? I'll e-fight ya.
I meant it in reference to the seeking of some ideal of 'the tradition' via a session...where there usually isn't any dancing. No ideal of 'the music' can be complete without reference to the fact that it's dance music. Not denigrating it at all. If it's not dance music then it's listening music, or sitting music, or...? Just a category, that's all, and I'd rather have music made for dancing than for sitting, even if it's sat for.
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
this all confirms what I've always suspected about toddy and some otheres on here. they are passengers. they follow not lead. and then moan about the direction they are "forced" to follow. Story of the human race I suppose
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Ionnas
Herself accuses me of being ADHD...My teacher John will probably concur with the HD part knowing my interpretation of the word 'Slow'
I find playing along very satisfying...the zen thing again...but my point was that that level of fulfillment isn't the end all and be all.
I do think the public play is what it is all about. Sharing the music so non-musicans can sing and dance, or just listen and enjoy watching other folks sing and dance to The Music.
The Music is that bit of light that shouldn't be hidden under a basket. It should be shared.
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Joel, for some of us, "improving to the highest possible standard" is definitely NOT the goal. In fact, there isn't much of any goal, other to enjoy playing music. As Yo-Yo Ma says, "music isn't about perfection; it's about expression."
That said, many of us here have played for thousands of hours over the years and so have developed some chops for playing this music. We can play it with respect for the community of people who've kept it alive over the generations, and play it well enough that even brilliant musicians apparently enjoy sitting down with us for tunes and craic. Those are likely the only "standards" that apply to this music, and that second one is probably over-reaching. This music doesn't have to be "performance" or "recording star" music, perfected and polished to the point that mere "folk" with day jobs can no longer play it. In fact, it's an antidote to that aspect of so many other musical genres.
In his opening salvo, mtodd set up a straw man, expecting far too much of the average session. It's just a chance to play tunes and swill a few pints among friends. Sure, a decent player can wade in with all sorts of nuances and "finer points" and have a rollicking good time even if no one else hears any of it. If you happen to be sitting within earshot, or if most of your session mates are so capable, then you might just learn something, sitting there. But it's not the session's duty to do that for you. And you still have to go home to the woodshed and wallow in those finer points till they come out in your own playing.
And yes, there are lots of mediocre sessions that lack a really skilled, nyah-ful player to inspire others. That tends to breed a "session style" of playing based on half-knowing lots of tunes while forgoing nyah and all the finer points. Even so, a player can learn elsewhere and develop, whether or not the local session does.
For the umpteenth time, "Ask not what your session can do for you, but what you can do for your session."
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Also, really good, experienced players can pick up tunes, learn new twiddly bits, explore musical ideas all while just having fun down at the pub. Less experienced players, by definition, don't have the chops yet to do that.
In short, a session can be a place where learning and brilliant music making happen simultaneously, if the players are up to it.
Don't blame the forum for the flaws of the participants....
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
"If you were offered time in a professional studio with a fantastic engineer would you turn it down? Honestly?"
I've done my time in such places. Such horrid, precious, sterile places. Give me an evening down the boozer with my mates any time. (And Matt Molloy and John Carty agree)
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Heh, yep, I've been offered professional studio time. Only took a few times to realize that's precisely not what this music is all about, not for me. "Honestly?" Yes, I turn it down every time it's offered.
Joel, different people have very different reasons for playing music--we don't all aspire to be recording stars. I hope the people who do aspire to that enjoy their journey. It's just not for me.
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Ahhhhh now I get it! And there was me thinking that music was an art form. I didn't realise that you don't have to practice, or have a desire to improve as a musician! In that case I'll take my fiddle to the session next time. I've only been playing a few months (sporadically) and when I play it, it sounds like a fox on heat walking through a metal pipe, but it doesn't matter as long I enjoy it!
I wasn't suggesting that session music should be super performance standard or recording star quality. I was suggesting that musicians of all genres perhaps want to continue to improve their ability. Anybody can do that, even mere 'folk with day jobs' like me. Sorry if this sounds sarcastic (I really mean that) but folk music is too often used as a hiding place for poor musicians who think it's OK to not improve their abilities, and then inflict it on the rest of us.
And "Ask not what your session can do for you, but what you can do for your session." Blimey I'm in a pub not a church!
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Sorry I think we posted all of that at the same time. I have a small amateur 'studio' at home. I don't want to be a recording star. Never have done. I just want to make a 'record' of the music I like to play before I'm too old to play it anymore. I like to press the record button and see what happens. I know it's not 'the music' and I never pretend otherwise. Nice playing by the way Will. Those thousands of hours sound like they were definitely worth it!
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
So many salvos....so little time.
Every time I've heard Martin Hayes talk over the years, he says the same thing--playing at a bad session ruins your playing. When I first heard this years ago I was so relieved and I didn't feel pressured any more to play in my local session anymore. And my playing improved.
While I appreciate the rather noble intent of trying to participate in a poor session to raise the level, it's a very difficult undertaking requiring dynamite, kryptonite and an ITM IED thrown in for good measure to blast through some of the thick-headedness and tone-deafness.
How to find that elusive 5%? My solution has been to travel to places where there's good sessions, which I've found through all the friends I've made far afield who play well and who have a real generous spirit. This has required time and effort; but I reckon a few really great sessions a year is worth it. Also, setting up a house kitchen session w/like minded folks in your area can work as a bromide. It's certainly traditional.
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Joel, I've enjoyed your clips from the first time you posted them.
And I don't think we're all that far apart on our attitudes about this music. But for me there's a difference between wanting to improve (yes, I do something toward that, daily), and wanting to "improve to the highest possible standard." Nope, no standard in it for me. I'm comfortable with where I'm at as a fiddler. Yes, I hope to improve (was just noodling away here on my fourth-finger rolls, in fact). But I'm not measuring myself against someone else, and least of all against someone else's sense of how I should sound. That's a big part of why I don't enter recording studios or music competitions. I don't see what that has to do with playing this music.
My rip on JFK's famous line wasn't meant as a sermon, but as a reminder that people can go to their local sesh hoping to get an ego boost (and come home dashed), or they can go without expecting anyone else there to do anything for them, but with the notion that they might help them have a fun time playing tunes (and come home stoked).
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Clare, good points. I too have travelled for a good session, sometimes thousands of miles. It was always worth it.
But I've also found that it's worth investing the time and effort to support my local session mates in learning, listening, and improving. Twelve years into it now and we have two sessions a week. It's rare that I go a week without several hours of class music among friends. That's remarkable for a small town 6,000 miles west of Galway....
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Sorry Will I didn't mean improving to someone else's standard. I don't want to be like, or better, than anyone else. I just have an idea in my mind somewhere of what I'd like to be as compared to what I am now. It's the age old problem of why artists are never happy.
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Fair enough zippy thats a good point, but I've done that, and it palls, you can end up as a commodity, selling yourself to the masses sure Everyone has a great time but It can feel empty, like you are pulling tricks out of a hat to amuse the crowd. For me the only way it works is with no compromise, None. Then I can feel that I am true to myself and true to the music I love.
I agree with Mtodd that the kind of session he describes is a waste of time, IF the goal of your participation is to learn and/or understand the finer points of the tradition. IMO those sessions are not what trad is about.
Small sessions where the vibe is right, can be of great benefit IMO. But like will CPT says, sessions are not necessarily places to go to achieve something, to take, but places to go to and have fun and to give.
For myself I view the music as art, My 'goal' as such is to be as good an artist as I can be. To make beautiful music. For me if a session is just chaos I leave, I have no interest. If the music is bad , for whatever reason, I have no desire to be part of it, none. Fortunately that is rare to non-existent here, but I have been to sessions where there was too much chaos and I can picture it now, shudder! no thanks.
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
I've also heard Martin Hayes say that you can't really know the music well unless you've done a number of things, which includes playing in sessions...
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
I offer this little story to aid in pushing the reply total for this discussion over the century mark. To touch hardened hearts, too—why not.
There was an idiot-savant (eejit-savant) who used to show up at a session some distance from here. Verbally, interpersonally, and hygienically he was what many would cruelly call "backwards" or "slow."
But the pub would fall silent when he reached for his ancient harp with those ten sweet, sweet toes. Inevitably he would warble a song of his own composition, "I Have Half a Mind to Tell You (O'Carolan Was Blind)."
What did I learn from this player with the unusual gift? First: I like, really, really need to work on my dexterity. Second: "jam session" can have at least two meanings.
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
I suppose just about anyone could be quoted in such a way as to advance their own session (er, self) interest.
I think it goes without saying that the session is an important part of playing. Duh. How to get some magic some of the time when contending with the 95% factor is the challenge. This thread offers a variety of interesting perspectives about that rather large percentage. CPT, I appreciate your stick-with-it attitude and session gumption; go team!. I've just given up and rolled over in regard to that bleeping 95%....and remodeled my kitchen, for kitchen sessions! Now if I just had a keg fridge....
And also, CPT, I'm pretty happy with my playing now. It's not like I'm really great or anything; but I see no reason not to be happy...and I certainly haven't stopped growing.
I think it's because that fiddler hair shirt I ordered from the Comhaltas gift shop doesn't fit.
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Clare, kitchen sessions are a terrific way to go. You're less likely to get that accidental passerby who happens to be a brilliant player, but at least you can filter out the 95%. We've done a fair amount of that here, as well.
And "pretty happy" is fine. Progress is more fun when you focus on what you already do well while continuing to improve the rest. But I said "completely happy." I've never met a *good* musician who was completely happy with her or his playing.
P.S. The best fiddler hair shirts come from Mongolia....
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Just got home from a pub session that I have no hesitation in describing as a "5%er", pretty well as defined in my first post. I think my colleague Mix, who was there, would agree.
So I'm guessing it was;
"-(not necessarily always Irish, I might add) with not much more than half a dozen well-matched players in a not-too noisy environment where the music is not only played but discussed, and the musicians learn from each other, as well as entertaining the pub (always an important aspect)."
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
I'm still confused. What on earth is a 'chop'?
Btw, sessions are crap, unless they are the secret non-crap ones. That's generally the rule I've gleaned over a couple decades. Players whose confidence outstrips their ability are definitely unwelcome, as are those where confidence and volume can be juggled hand to hand. Beginners and learners are welcomed, but see the last sentence. The only good sessions where quality stops being the 1st, 2nd and 3rd consideration are those where everyone attending are friends and have been a long, long time.
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
A chop is a segment of muscle tissue dissected from the rib and intercostal muscle of an ungulate, usually a young sheep, hence the term lamb chop. Can also be derived from a cow or pig.
Why anyone would bring "chops" to a gathering of Irish traditional music is beyond me. It must be a North American tradition. Maybe something to do with their colonial or hillbilly past. I suspect they bring their "chops" along to their sessions and lay them out on the table. A rather odd ritual.. Not at all polite drawing room behaviour if you ask me.
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
`Chops' is a word Luis Armstrong used when he referred to his own -- or any musician's -- set of skills. We can stop using the word, if you like. I like saying it, because it summons thoughts of the man. My Ma actually got to sit back stage with him one evening in Reno. She was over the moon for months afterward.
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
*Luis* Armstrong? who's that?
An American no doubt. But why would your mother be over the moon that a man showed her his collection of ungulate ribs and intercostal muscles? Is there a subculture of amateur vetinary anatomists? You Americans are very strange people. But who am I to judge. Live and let live.
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Last night, two fiddles a mandolin and a guitar. We've known each other for years. I learned two tunes, and finally filled in the last gaps of a Swedish tune I've been trying to get for a few weeks. I was just thinking what a bloody nonsense this thread is
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
One of my local sessions is often just me, another fiddler, flute, whistle, and guitar. The bodhranista who sits in often spends a chunk of the evening chatting with friends at the bar. We're all good friends, and do things other than music together--trips to Yellowstone and Glacier Nat'l Parks, river outings, potlucks, silly movie nights, etc.
Playing like that is a terrific opportunity to make music, listen, learn tunes, improve one's chops, try out new ideas, and generally have fun. The least "waste of time I can think of.
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Some of the best music I have ever heard or played was in sessions. Live music is so much more than a recording can ever be, because it's interactive. There have been countless times that I have experienced a form of musical euphoria that I have never experienced from listening to a recording.
As far as the "slick, overproduced recordings" that I was referring to, in many cases, these are things where the artist's intention is specifically to push the limits of the tradition. They're often combining multiple forms and styles of music, they're often played in different keys than you would find in a session, and they're often heavily produced to appeal more to someone who is only familiar with popular music recordings. So that's what I mean by them not being a good place to go for learning the nuances of the tradition.
Personally, I would much rather sit down and share some tunes in a session with those artists than listen to their recordings. That doesn't mean that the recordings have no place in the tradition, or that they're not masterpieces in their own right. It just means that you'll get a lot more out of playing tunes in a session than you will listening to that kind of recording.
And if you find yourself going to sessions that are bad for your playing, then don't go... that's your choice. But as a contrasting view, I would say that maybe only 10% of the sessions that I go to feel like a waste of time, and I get something out of the other 90% of the sessions, whether it be musically, or personally, or both.
That's grand Pete! I always love your comments.
Last night I went to session. Which I have been out of for 3 months; speaking of choices. Definitely not a waste of my time as I did need to be back playing with my mates.
It was noisy enough that I could not hear each player. So I sat myself down by my friend on the box & my friend on flute. I listened for their nuances & they were definitely *making music*. Only hope I contributed something. If I did hinder anything they might have otherwise learnt I am certain they did not hinder me.
I wouldn't want to put any arbitrary number on where our session fits. Last night was not one of the rare 5 %ers. I made the most of the situation, did learn a thing or 2, don't know if I made music ( I am a poor musician but I am *trying to improve my abilities*), best of all though ~ just the craic I needed!
Could someone please email to let me know what Danny McKay has gone off & done? I went to bed last night after leaving him a response. This morning it appears I may have missed something.
Thanks
The individual's effort of making & learning Irish music is essential ~
~ however many 'others' might be about, and whatever the caliber...
There's a lot that can be learned at any session just putting your instrument aside and listening, and using your ears to focus in on what others while are doing, following different leads...
I took the gist of this discussion's title to be raising an old subject we've dealt with many times before here ~ that you can't depend on any session to meet all your needs if you're serious about learning and understanding this music, any music... If you don't step outside that limit, go beyond, seek and ask for guidance, you probably won't ever make much of a musician, though maybe enough for your own satisfaction. Also within, it helps to be an 'active' member rather than a passive one, to do more than just scrape one tune out after another, to get to know your fellow musicians and to start making connections, like arranging to record or learn a few tunes off of someone who's take on it took your interest...
I think a question mark is missing, though I tend to take that for granted when folks post discussions here, when I'm of good spirit, rather than looking at these as closed end statements. There's no room for discussion with 'closed' statements. And while we're thinking 'questions', why not also add a plural to widen it out a bit? ~ and readjust the closing strength of 'waste of time'? That could too easily be taken personally. Even in the worst session I've ever found myself in, I still wouldn't have called it a waste of time.
Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever been in a session I didn't get something out of, including enjoyment, even if it was at a distance nursing a pint. Even that session with the non-stop spoons and bones player, non-stop and really awful, even there I had some pleasure, and a few good pints, though glad I was of the distance between us and the session, as we propped up the bar and played sets of smiles and suppressed chuckling...
Here's another go at the title for this, sort of what I read between the words ~
Are group efforts in making & learning Irish music, including sessions, effective ways of acquiring skill, technique and understanding, or can they potentially do more damage than good?
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
mtodd -- whatever your differences with Mr. Day, you must admit it was a good wind-up he gave me. I shall take it like a sportsman, and acknowledge as much. Didn't sus it out until I woke up this morning. How long d'you reckon he was lying there in wait? [eyes pile of cigarette buts, and sandwich wrappers] Long time, I'm guessing. On to other matters: Just wanted to shout out "Hey, Ceolachan!"
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
The`Trapdoor" spider. They don't leave litter in front of their burrows. Never seen one take down any thing bigger then a child. Yet. (sorry, couldn't resist that.)
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Well said C.
IMO they can do more damage than good for learners. Heres why; The speed may be too fast and corners cut to keep up. They may be too loud , meaning the learner cant actually here what they sound like. The impression may be that sessions are what its all about, They are not ,IMO. The impression might be that its all about having fun in a social environment, IMO its not, Its about respecting and doing justice to a tradition and culture. Its about doing it right.
The result can be a player who cant play a whole phrase without hideous errors, who can 'play' if that is the word at session speed but sound horrible on their own, yet because they hardly ever play on their own , dont even realise !
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Well said Ionannas. I guess what we're discussing is can a session get in the way of the process? The process of doing it right? the process of actually learning how to listen and play the music well in a solo context which, surely, can only make playing in a social/group context that much better. Obviously that is not the case for Will and Llig...but they're already there and were decades ago. They can lead and play well in any situation. They and others like them, Kilfarboy etc are accomplished players. And yourself too by the sounds of it.
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
ceol -- Unless you too have been using your wife for a re-creation of the William Tell target shoot, then we're talking only about Burrows.... for now. I've got my eye on you.
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
In at least one way, sessions and music lessons are similar: it's up to *you* to do the woodshedding to make progress between the weekly "lesson." It's also up to *you* to pay attention and learn what you can. Going to a lesson or session every week won't make you a better player unless you put the time in the other 6 days of the week.
The less experienced a player you are, the more true this is.
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
I think that playing music with other musicians whether or not it is in a session or some other type of situation has helped improve my playing and helped make me a better musician. However, I didn't start making music with other musicians until I had spent a lot of time practicing alone at home so I think there is some benefit to be gained from solo practice also.
And, yes, it does matter and it does make a difference what type of session you are participating in and whom you are playing music with.
For example, when I began playing piano at a local Blues Jam in 1990, there were some semi-retired professional musicians who participated in this Blues Jam on a regular basis. Yes I did learn a lot about playing music with other musicians at a jam session by working with these semi-retired professional musicians.
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Hmph. This thread has me wishing I hadn't read it. It's bad enough that I have to battle my inner demons to screw up the courage to even show up at our local session prepared to play something...and now I'm getting the message not to bother??
Well.
I think it's up to each person to work on the finer points of their individual playing on their own. I don't go to the session expecting to learn technique. I go to play music with other people, a joy which I can't experience in my woodshed, no matter how attentively I practice. I go to be inspired by the playing of the folks who have been at it longer than I have (which would be ALL of them - someone has to be at the bottom of the heap, you know). I go to participate in that traditional relationship that (if I'm understanding this right) sessions naturally foster - mentoring each other/learning from each other. I go to get lost in some live music and a drink, a welcome break from my day-to-day. I go because it makes me smile and I try really, really hard to contribute something that makes others smile, too. Even if it's just my stubbornness or my shiny instrument. Even if it's just the punters smiling.
And another point, while I'm at it - I read here that one should learn tunes live and in person, by ear. And then I read that slow sessions should be outlawed. And then I read that one should not rely on dots or midis to learn tunes. But then I read that one should not show up at a session if one doesn't know the tunes. Catch-22, anyone?
At least the folks at my session seem happy to have me there. I think I'll go with that.
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Amy, do bear in mind that the conflicting or paradoxical advice you're reading is coming from different people who fundamentally disagree on some of this stuff.
I think a wise and well-run slow (I'd call it a "tune learning") session is a good way for newcomers to this music to learn tunes. But it has to serve as a stepping stone and an adjunct to real sessions, not an end in itself.
And even better than a slow session is finding a good player who's wiling to sit down with you one-on-one and swap tunes.
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Sir, I deeply resent being called a pot stirrer!! Even if tangentially (and possibly not at all).... pshaw, Sir! I must needs keep my pot always on constant boil -- *hot* as it were, Sir -- as doth Jeremy himself no doubt by hosting this said board. And may I suggest that those who cannot stand the heat...howsoever it may have occurred...vacate the said kitchen? Begging your indulgence,
Your most humble servant,
Potluck
The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
In this regard I think sessions are, 95% of them, are a complete waste of time and, in fact, might hinder more than help. On the other hand, sometimes during the musical maelstrom a lone player will eke out a tune or two and it is for those moments that they are useful -- musically speaking. Socially they're fine. But I am coming to feel that they are not the place to learn and/or understand the finer points of the tradition. That might be a solo affair. Agree? Disagree?
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by skin&bow
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Uh-oh... Here comes World War III...
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Pat Mustard
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
LW....possibly. In fact, I'd go further and say that sessions actually *encourage* bad playing and bad habits and, more importantly, NOT listening carefully to oneself in a musical way. It all gets lost in the group effort of playing. Now, that might be sociable and the social aspects of that effor even laudable (connecting with one's fellow man over a pint, some chat, etc. all fine) -- but it isn't musical.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by skin&bow
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Great Scott man! What are you up to now, mtodd? Let me go strap into my armor before I wade into this. BRB.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
This isn't a wind up SW -- I truly believe sessions encourage misbegotten goals, and those goals f* up the music and apprentice's ability to play it. Sessions are quite possibly the worst thing to ever happen to ITM from certain points of view. Let's be honest! They encourage people to learn to many tunes (badly) and play them (badly) and instill a false sense of confidence that we are truly "getting" it....when we're not.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by skin&bow
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Do you propose a ban, or a boycot? There a few individuals at my local session who's efforts would be better spent at church bingo; but should they be banished? Just say the word!
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
mtodd- sir, I am afraid you might be right.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by pipewatcher
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
There ARE a few...
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Good, relevant points in that post, with which I generally agree. However, it's the session itself that is the deciding factor: a large number of players of varying abilities, including a clutch of bodhrans and guitars, in a noisy crowded pub is not conducive to learning and appreciating the music - that's the 95%. I must say I don't enjoy that type of session now (probably old age coming on). On the other hand, there are sessions - the 5% -(not necessarily always Irish, I might add) with not much more than half a dozen well-matched players in a not-too noisy environment where the music is not only played but discussed, and the musicians learn from each other, as well as entertaining the pub (always an important aspect).
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
If you play in sh'ite sessions the music is gonna be sh'ite. Go to good sessions, with just a small number of players. Then you're forced to sink or swim. Otherwise don't complain.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Rudall the time
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Here's my 2 Canadian or Euro cents...
Yes, you're more than likely going to find a lousy musician or two at a session, such as those with more enthusiasm than ability. (hope I don't fall into this category!).
What I really find most useful about sessions is that I get exposed to tunes that I might not have heard otherwise. I don't learn them there at the session, but I ask for the name of any tune that particularly grabs me and then go away and learn it in my own time, and hopefully have it up to scratch by the time the next session comes around.
What I'm trying to say is that a session motivates me to put more effort into learning tunes.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Pat Mustard
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
"Socially they're fine." - I agree.
What was the problem?
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by grego
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
LH,AQ, Mr. Pipe
I agree with you for the most part.
But a caution: Let us not cast stones at guitars or bodhrans....
it's not the invidual instruments [good or bad] that are the problem....the problem is the session ITSELF. It seems to me that session simply encourage too fast playing of badly articulated tunes. It sets false goals for people who don't know any better [ie, learns tons of tunes and you're a trad player]. Play them fast and you're suddenly an "accomplished" player, etc etc.
But worse than that, it encourages 90% of people playing this stuff to ACTUALLY BELIEVE they are playing [and i mean this in the real sense of the word] irish music.
I think Sessions have become [how? can someone help me here?] by and large are an adult fantasy.
They are an adult sandbox for people who have jobs, mortgages, partners, affairs, and Visa cards.
But they are not music.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by skin&bow
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
OK, I've got my mail and helmet, ready to go.
I see what you're getting at, and I will say this. I like to play with fewer musicians, no doubt. I prefer a small session. When you get the wall of sound going on, as a fiddler, there’s only one possible way to make noise, and that’s with maximum bow pressure from the right hand. Any subtleties of music that one can generate with your bow hand go right out the window, and it’s just ‘make maximum volume’, which is tiresome. Many of the finer things you can do physically with a violin go right out the window in a giant pack of musicians all cranking out at top volume.
However, I sacrifice that in the winter for having packs of snowbirds to play with. I know in the summer here in Florida it will just be a few of us die-hard year long residents, and soon there will be a lovely, gentle sound of flute, fiddler and guitar again, with a few other assorted characters from time to time. There’s nothing like the sound of those three instruments happily making music. There’s a magic that happens when the flute and a gently played fiddle cooperate merrily, and this, I think, is what you are speaking of, true music, musicians able to hear and react to each other, not just a giant free-for-all, let’s all crank it up and tear into it as hard as humanly possible.
However, traditionally, there is something to be said for that giant, monster sound. Dancing, for example. In the days before PAs and amplification, a giant sound had to be made for the dancers to hear. I’ve been reading about the dance halls in Boston in the 20s-50s. Flutes were virtually non-existent; they didn’t care to play in the halls as it was useless, just giant accordions to crank up the volume for the dancers, and loud fiddlers with tight bows and heavy bow hands.
Small sessions can make music and have teaching going on as well. Larger ones are more for the social aspect, I can see this. I think the dominant players in the session generate the session’s personality as well, so…hmm…
“…you give much to chew on, young Skywalker.” [/yoda voice]
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
...and I don't get any royalties or anything, I just really dig this book, sorry to keep flogging it, but it's been fascinating reading:
http://www.upne.com/1-55553-610-7.html
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Your figure of 95% may well be correct, I have absolutely no way of knowing. But having visited a fair few session in my time, I'd say it's a reasonable guesstimate. There are so many things that can conspire to it being useless, from bodhrans to multiple guitars to faffing, to noodling etc etc. This list of no nos is endless.
However, probably 80% of when and where I play now, where mine and my mates' group effort of listening, learning and playing is most certainly not a waste of time. How is this achieved? By being consistently ruthless over many years with anyone who commits any of the offences on the above endless list.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by ...
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Hee hee! '...adult sandbox...' [tightens helmet straps]
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Regarding lazyhound's description of the two kinds of session, we have both - the first kind from 9pm to about midnight and the second from midnight to whenever we finally get chucked out (I think it was 2-30 or later this morning). Works well, and I wouldn't miss any of it for the world!
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by RichardB
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
See, and there's the city mouse/country mouse thing again.
How does Llig do it? In a big music hotbed, he must police his session with an iron fist. Fair play.
How do we do it here? We're in the boonies. We have die-hard lovers who care, good friends, good musicians. Visitors and hangers-on see it and don't tread on our toes. Never a need to lay down the law.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
i for one would ardently condone the utter criminalisation of the so-called "beginner" or "slow" session. that's the real sandbox
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by pipewatcher
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
It's precisely because Edinburgh is such a music hot bed that it's possible. There are plenty of elsewheres for the offenders to be sent.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by ...
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
pipewatcher -- this requires enforcement, penalties, codes, and a special class of musician-enforcers. Just say the word!
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Make it so A.Q.!
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by pipewatcher
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Let me cite the abysmal session cds put out by Comhaltas...which I own btw. Why would one want to aspire to playing that? in that way? I'm not saying I can play that "fast" or even "that many" tunes as evidenced on the various editions in that series....but I have come to realize that I don't want to play like that.....and I think by and large....the rise of the mediocre sessions has led the majority of us astray...with false goals and even worse, false ideas of what the music is about or should sound like. I'm not talking about that upper 5% of sessions where in fact one could go and not play a note and actually learn something.
that's my point.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by skin&bow
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
I don't care about your 95%. Except of course that they offer a useful sink for the inevitable dross
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by ...
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
mtodd -- you haven't a chance! Turn back! Comhaltas will crush you! And for what?
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
ha ha
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by ...
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
oooooohhh.
Music is more than the playing of it....I can do that quite well at home and the dog will sleep next to me and the parakeet will chirp merrily. Aside from the zen of the playing...what good is playing alone. No 'sounds of trees falling in forests' metaphors please.
Music is social, particularly Irish music... and session music essentially..whether you approach it as competitive, an opportunity to drink with like minded (and not so like minded), or you are into the preservation of tradition.... Playing alone is, well, boring.
Mtodd...were you concerned that the past couple of days the postings have been, well, very mundane and functional instead of being of elevated level of intellect and deep phililogocal import?
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by zippydw
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Wish I was good at Photoshop. Can someone stick the Comhaltas logo on the Death Star for me? [ducks, runs for cover]
No no, fair play to them, haven't they done some good? We've batted that one around on here many a time. Perhaps it's the 'doing no harm' portion that leaves some to be desired?
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Well zippy, as long as everyone leaves their parts in their pants and not on the table, things should be just right as rain again in no time, I'd wager.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
zippy I disagree strongly! playing alone is not boring but fulfilling.
I can certainly understand where mtodd is coming from and agree to a certain extent with the first post. I cant comment on the cds he mentions because I haven't heard them but surely they are OK if not excellent? sound clips anyone?
For me the joy is in the tunes, sessions are fun right enough but no more than an occasional hit for me. I love the depth of exploration, the excitement of new tunes, the endless and varied possibilities of expression and ornamentation. I do feel that a lot of this is lost in session environments unless they are pretty low key quite friendly affairs. I love the lyrical beauty of the tunes and I agree that a lot of this is lost at many sessions... but not all!
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Yes, SWFL, nobody needs a demonstration of 'The Pipe on the Knob'.
Please don't ban me...
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Pat Mustard
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
If it's the Foinn Seisiun series that's being referred to, I have them too. I don't listen to them as performances, but rather as an aid to learn tunes (my ear is not quite up to the necessary speed to pick up tunes note-for-note from Bothy Band recordings!)
Dull? Yes. Also useful in their own way though.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Pat Mustard
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
in some ways you're right - noisy pub, people not understanding what they're listening too etc half p*ssed players ... not great for the music at all, As a whistle player it's often a waste of time playing in that environment - you can't be heard, and the intimacy of the whistle is lost, But there are good sessions with small no of players and people listening and then it can be magic. You learn a lot from playing with others and other instruments etc so I think a good group vibe can be fantastic - but i'm as happy playing in someone's kitchen as i am in a pub
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by mikeof
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
It's essentially a pass-time. If it ends up with some music happening all the better, but I never go to a session expecting it. Hoping maybe. If you don't live somewhere where there are loads of great players hope is always going to come above expectation. It can be frustrating but then we can't all live in Ennis.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by pavlf
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Gererally anything more than 3 or four players is a nightmare
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Red Robin
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
This could be useful:
ThePlaceToLearnAndUnderstandTheFinerPointsOfTheTradition.org
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by grego
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Paul, yes, point taken. I suppose we live in eternal hope.
A while back I was at a session and had the joy of sitting beside a really great fiddle player for the whole evening...While others around me butchered the tunes he played away adding all these wonderful bits and flourishes and generally it sounded great. He didn't lead, didn't grandstand, just played like everyone. And it was a bit of a revelation. On the one hand there was this great wall of banshee sound and the wonderful fiddle playing of this guy doing his thing. The contrast couldn't have been greater. I taped a few tunes and it was very interesting to hear how at insanely opposite ends of the session spectrum the two approaches were! I mean, it should have been obvious to me long ago I suppose. His was actual music and the rest of us were pretenders to the music. It wasn't depressing or even humbling per se, it was relevatory. It made me see/hear what Llig has been on about over the years. And his approach to the music [the fiddle player's] was the kind of thing one rejoices in finding. 'Tired' old tunes that suddenly lived without fireworks. Great phrasing, lift, swing, articulation, drive...and none of it 'work'. No gritting of teeth and staring at the floor in concentration. Ah, it was a joy to hear music as it should be played.
And this is something one could do perfectly well by onself, as Ionanna points out. You don't need a session. In fact, maybe it's what us apprentice's should be doing more....listening realistically to ourselves and the music and not getting caught up so much in "session pressures" of speed, expectations and endless badly played repertoire.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by skin&bow
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
I agree completely! The internet should only be reserved for computer experts!
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by pbassnote
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Let me try that again:
http://www.ThePlaceToLearnAndUnderstandTheFinerPointsOfTheTradition.Org
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by grego
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Original poster says
"they are not the place to learn and/or understand the finer points of the tradition"
Of course they're not.
However, as social gatherings they are great. As long as you find one(a session) that suits you and with people you like.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Johnny Jay
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
long ago and far away, there was a town that had two sessions. the first one was made up of truly fine musicians, most of whom had long experience in the tradition, and the second was attended by musicians who often weren't great, or were on their way to being great, or even just starting out.
now, the person who told me about this town said that the people in the less accomplished session generally seemed to be having a better time than the 'high church' bunch, and that even if the music was sometimes ragged, when they were 'on', they were really lifting that music. and when the occasional hot player showed up for the evening, spirits (and music) soared.
and personal experience tells me that sometimes less accomplished musicians, if they are attuned to each other, can make music with real heart and joy in it.
and i, personally, am after that joy.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by 'tinamatt
The group effort of making Irish music is essentially . . .
. . . when I don't know the tune I'll listen. I do this alot. People have actually told me what I did wrong. To repeat ~ I have been told what I did wrong when I was simply sitting & listening.
It doesn't discourage me though. They're my ears & it's always use 'em or lose them.
Cheers ;)
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
The session players who are at a "Special Olympics" level (as the simply hilarious, elegantly charming Barry O would put it) need encouragement and a warm, safe place to spend their evenings. Irish music fills that bill.
Do you really want to force poor players into donning 100% hemp clothing then seeking out bonfire-lit drum circles under the wild pull of a full moon? If their playing is bad now, think how it will further suffer if there are blond, dreadlocked Druid/Pagan/Rainbow Family chicks dancing topless, lit by the rising, licking, golden flames. Think, my friends, before shunning the sloppy.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
"Irish music fills that bill." So does church bingo.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Sigh... why is it that everything has to be reduced to a binary Good/Bad? Nothing in life is that simple, but the media wants it to be and reports it accordingly. Maybe that's where it comes from. Is rain good or bad? How about sun - good or bad? C'mon, pick one - good or bad?
Can't do it. It depends. If it's dry season here any rain is welcomed as good. If we're already flooded by several serial hurricanes and there's water standing all over heck no, we don't need and more stinkin rain.
Seems large sessions, solo play and small kitchen sessions should be viewed similarly. They all have something to offer and when you have them in an appropriate mix you are smiling. Each person's appropriate mix is likely different too by the way.
But sit in a room with your dots, ABC's and MP3 and not only are you missing out on some good insight to the music that others may give you, but only making solo music strikes me as similar to a solo version of another popular activity that is designed to be done with another person.
And only going to a mega session, or only playing with the same three players has similar issues. You miss lots. Mix it up and take what you can from each. They truly do compliment each other no? Travel the world and have some tunes with anyone who will have you.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by cjp
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
wait a second...you mean there are blond dreadlocked chicks dancing around topless and I'm here playing Trip to Athlone with a whistle player, two guitarists and an old guy with an electric piano????
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
there's a session tonight at the local landfill...we'll be burning some nice tires i've got lined up for warmth.
New Pure Drop: Bring that pagan sister of yours?
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by skin&bow
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
I've been by that one at the local landfill...that place is a dump!
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Ata—
Irish trad music sessions differ from church bingo in that with ITM there is far less at stake.
The two activities are similar in that the pleasure each offers is fleeting.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
mtodd, Nate—
What I propose is nothing less than a bail-out of the whole Irish trad scene. The best players should and will be required to pay a "hornpipe tax," where they will play hornpipes, to encourage the slow players, for 83% of all future sessions. Hundreds of monitoring jobs will be created, good jobs, jobs that the trad community has wanted and so richly deserves.
This hornpipe tax is retroactive. Last week's session should have been 83% hornpipes. Slower players could have had hopes of keeping up on those. With swift passage of my proposal, what had been wrong playing will become right playing.
I have instructed that this be enacted immediately. I am only sorry that because of important, urgent appointments I have no time for questions.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Nothing wrong with the session per se mtodd, but you are right about it being a playground for the closet fantasist. Particularly over this side of the pond. I often wonder how musicians hear themselves. What they'd think and do if they heard somebody else playing the way they did themselves. Some of the music I've heard in pubs is enough to make me leave for the sake of my own sanity yet people flail away totally oblivious to the cacophony. Besides, you're not there to learn in as much as you're there to play.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Patkiwi
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
I'd agree with OP
Sessions are a social affair
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Bren
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Though every now and then, very rarely, some amazing music emerges. Those moments are worth waiting for but they're not the raison d'etre of sessions, for me anyway
Expecting it every week is one of the major causes of the heartache and mumping that's regurlarly aired on here
Pub sessions, that is. Private sessions are whatever you want them to be
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Bren
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Hit the nail on the head there Bren.
And in any case, it's all about the *moment* of doing it, "performing" or just playing the tunes for the sake of them. Many of them started out in life as imperfect farmer's tunes from Ireland Scotland or even England & Wales, and that's how they'll continue their existence: commoner, imperfect, catchy, cheery folksy little numbers, played by millions of people for hundreds of years. If you want high end playing, get into classical music.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Rudall the time
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
pure drops, your proposal sounds great in theory, but what assurances will we have that the monitoring jobs won't just be given to the banjo playing cousins of our local politicians?
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
mtodd -- Don't expect that the public session will change its ways, much less perish from this Earth. Much as I might wish some folks would find something else to do for those evenings, I know they will continue as sessioners. Can't be helped; not without some nasty machinations, anyway. That's life on this planet, man. Just you try to impose an agenda of exclusivity on something so very very public as a session and see what you end up with. Only, don't tell me if it turns out to be paradise. If it turns out to be paradise, it won't last.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Life is essentially a waste of time; freedom gives us a each a choice of how best to waste it. And to think I chose to read this thread...
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Rick Payman
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Sessions are not meant to be a way of perfecting "your" music. It's meant to be fun. If the session's sh*t, leave. The whole point of music is social, maybe next time you're stuck in a noisy session trying to hear yourself, you should stop trying to hear yourself and listen the music as a whole. Music is not about you, or your skills. It's bigger than that.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by RadagastTheBrown
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Hi, good afternoon. I'd like to place an order. Yes, I'm calling about the topless Druid/Pagan bonfire chicks I saw advertised? Right, OK...and do you send them FedEx? Air or Ground only? I see, OK...
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Michael, are you having a slow day? I agree with you that almost all of the sessions here are ragged and often out of control, but if you ask the participants if they are enjoying themselves, most will say yes. And they do think they are good. This is encouraged by the 90% of session leaders here. Has anyone ever said slow down and listen to yourself? Don't think so. Of course if session leaders weren't paid or getting free pints, they wouldn't play with us anyway. Tunes with small groups of friends are best.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by boxielady
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
To what standard would you be trying to get the music to live up to? Some sessions are crap, but in my experience, session playing is often what opens the eyes of "apprentice" players, and helps them develop into good musicians... Listening to slick, overproduced recordings of virtuoso players may be inspiring, but it's certainly not going to teach you the nuances of the tradition.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Reverend
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
"Listening to slick, overproduced recordings of virtuoso players may be inspiring, but it's certainly not going to teach you the nuances of the tradition."
But that's my point Rev...neither is going to sessions as far as I can divine!! Go for other reasons, sure. But not for that. At least not 95% of them. [see my anecdote above re sitting beside that wonderful fiddle player while in a session]
I think solo woodshedding and careful listening etc etc is the only way....And I still think that there has developed this almost unthinking *loyalty* ...nay, belief in the holiness of the session as purevyor of the tradition....I just can't see it, quite frankly.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by skin&bow
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
My goodness there is a lot of angst and cynicism here today. mtodd it sounds like your local session has become rather uninspiring. Perhaps you're asking more of it that it can give. I enjoy my local sessions; some great players, some beginners. But I keep it in perspective as to what it is. What it is NOT, is an attempt at perfection.
After all, as the wise man once said, Irish music and sex are the two things you don't have to be great at in order to have perfectly enjoyable evening.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Tune is just a 4 letter word
O.K. it's agreed, the hypertext must change. From now on we will be;
http://www.thesession-95%ofyou.org
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
too right jusa. puir wee mtodd, painting himself into yet another corner. Recently at our session there is a pile of greyfriars bobbies the stench would knock you over. But occasionally it all comes right and it's worth the wait - both for players and listeners. Yes there are tossers we could do without, but angst, we don't have.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Rudall the time
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Well, I don't think anyone with their head screwed on at least somewhat correctly thinks the session is the end all, be all of the tradition. I mean, first of all, here we are, sitting around, playing dance music...and there's no one dancing! [snickers, runs back out of the room]
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
yeah but on the other hand, if you don't mind me getting geeky about it, let's not knock "dance music" - just because it still adheres to a (possibly, I 'm not sure) 1 million year old tradition of dancing to a set of sounds produced intentionally, doesn't mean it's rubbish...old fashioned, maybe, but crap, i don't think so....
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Rudall the time
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
"they (sessions) are not the place to learn and/or understand the finer points of the tradition"
Agree absolutely, mtodd. Ideally, go to a musically fecund place in Ireland, without an instrument, and immerse yourself in every aspect of community life. When you are totally accepted, you will be able to select the most authentic keepers of tradition, and mix with them only. Then you will learn and understand the finer points. (I am assuming you really do live in Peru, and didn't grow up in Ireland).
"The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time"
Disagree absolutely. This is the way the music was created and developed. Of course, you haven't qualified which group(s) you have in mind.
"I think solo woodshedding and careful listening etc etc is the only way...."
Agree partially, depending on who you listen to. He/She/They would need to be pre-qualified (as the bankers say) or you may be led astray. Learning in a vacuum sucks. (Ducks quickly behind desk).
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by oldstrings
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
"sitting around, playing dance music...and there's no one dancing! "
True, SWFL Fiddler, and not marching in parades, or attending wakes. So what then, smooth it out so it's not danceable?
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by oldstrings
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Hi Reverend. What do you mean by 'slick overproduced recordings'? Do you mean artificially enhancing or changing the sound to cover up mistakes and make the perceived product better than it is, or do you mean paying proper attention to production values, taking time to do things properly and using good equipment to get an accurate representation of what an artist is capable of playing?
Also. Isn't it every musician's dream to be a virtuoso? In other words, isn't it every musician's dream to continue to improve his/her art, skill and knowledge to the highest possible standard? Are you saying it's OK to just be an average or not very good player, as long as you can claim some link to a tradition? It's been said before that the old greats wouldn't have turned their noses up at the technology we have today. If you were offered time in a professional studio with a fantastic engineer would you turn it down? Honestly?
Back to the topic: sessions are great fun, even if the music isn't so good sometimes. I've learnt a lot about this music and made many friends at my session. Wednesday is the new weekend for me.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by McDermott
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
"solo woodshedding and careful listening etc etc is the only way"
You'll never learn to play with others that way. You're not really playing this music if you're only playing on your own or with a recording.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by kennedy
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Let me rephrase that. You can't learn this music only by playing on your own or by playing with a recording.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by kennedy
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Dance music rules, who said it doesn't? I'll e-fight ya.
I meant it in reference to the seeking of some ideal of 'the tradition' via a session...where there usually isn't any dancing. No ideal of 'the music' can be complete without reference to the fact that it's dance music. Not denigrating it at all. If it's not dance music then it's listening music, or sitting music, or...? Just a category, that's all, and I'd rather have music made for dancing than for sitting, even if it's sat for.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
this all confirms what I've always suspected about toddy and some otheres on here. they are passengers. they follow not lead. and then moan about the direction they are "forced" to follow. Story of the human race I suppose
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Rudall the time
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Ionnas
Herself accuses me of being ADHD...My teacher John will probably concur with the HD part knowing my interpretation of the word 'Slow'
I find playing along very satisfying...the zen thing again...but my point was that that level of fulfillment isn't the end all and be all.
I do think the public play is what it is all about. Sharing the music so non-musicans can sing and dance, or just listen and enjoy watching other folks sing and dance to The Music.
The Music is that bit of light that shouldn't be hidden under a basket. It should be shared.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by zippydw
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
oops I meant Playing alone in that third line.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by zippydw
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Joel, for some of us, "improving to the highest possible standard" is definitely NOT the goal. In fact, there isn't much of any goal, other to enjoy playing music. As Yo-Yo Ma says, "music isn't about perfection; it's about expression."
That said, many of us here have played for thousands of hours over the years and so have developed some chops for playing this music. We can play it with respect for the community of people who've kept it alive over the generations, and play it well enough that even brilliant musicians apparently enjoy sitting down with us for tunes and craic. Those are likely the only "standards" that apply to this music, and that second one is probably over-reaching. This music doesn't have to be "performance" or "recording star" music, perfected and polished to the point that mere "folk" with day jobs can no longer play it. In fact, it's an antidote to that aspect of so many other musical genres.
In his opening salvo, mtodd set up a straw man, expecting far too much of the average session. It's just a chance to play tunes and swill a few pints among friends. Sure, a decent player can wade in with all sorts of nuances and "finer points" and have a rollicking good time even if no one else hears any of it. If you happen to be sitting within earshot, or if most of your session mates are so capable, then you might just learn something, sitting there. But it's not the session's duty to do that for you. And you still have to go home to the woodshed and wallow in those finer points till they come out in your own playing.
And yes, there are lots of mediocre sessions that lack a really skilled, nyah-ful player to inspire others. That tends to breed a "session style" of playing based on half-knowing lots of tunes while forgoing nyah and all the finer points. Even so, a player can learn elsewhere and develop, whether or not the local session does.
For the umpteenth time, "Ask not what your session can do for you, but what you can do for your session."
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Small sessions are great for enjoying tunes and getting slowly p*ssed, big sessions are only good for getting p*ssed fast and playing tunes slow.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by bogman
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Also, really good, experienced players can pick up tunes, learn new twiddly bits, explore musical ideas all while just having fun down at the pub. Less experienced players, by definition, don't have the chops yet to do that.
In short, a session can be a place where learning and brilliant music making happen simultaneously, if the players are up to it.
Don't blame the forum for the flaws of the participants....
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
"If you were offered time in a professional studio with a fantastic engineer would you turn it down? Honestly?"
I've done my time in such places. Such horrid, precious, sterile places. Give me an evening down the boozer with my mates any time. (And Matt Molloy and John Carty agree)
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by ...
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Heh, yep, I've been offered professional studio time. Only took a few times to realize that's precisely not what this music is all about, not for me. "Honestly?" Yes, I turn it down every time it's offered.
Joel, different people have very different reasons for playing music--we don't all aspire to be recording stars. I hope the people who do aspire to that enjoy their journey. It's just not for me.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Ahhhhh now I get it! And there was me thinking that music was an art form. I didn't realise that you don't have to practice, or have a desire to improve as a musician! In that case I'll take my fiddle to the session next time. I've only been playing a few months (sporadically) and when I play it, it sounds like a fox on heat walking through a metal pipe, but it doesn't matter as long I enjoy it!
I wasn't suggesting that session music should be super performance standard or recording star quality. I was suggesting that musicians of all genres perhaps want to continue to improve their ability. Anybody can do that, even mere 'folk with day jobs' like me. Sorry if this sounds sarcastic (I really mean that) but folk music is too often used as a hiding place for poor musicians who think it's OK to not improve their abilities, and then inflict it on the rest of us.
And "Ask not what your session can do for you, but what you can do for your session." Blimey I'm in a pub not a church!
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by McDermott
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Sorry I think we posted all of that at the same time. I have a small amateur 'studio' at home. I don't want to be a recording star. Never have done. I just want to make a 'record' of the music I like to play before I'm too old to play it anymore. I like to press the record button and see what happens. I know it's not 'the music' and I never pretend otherwise. Nice playing by the way Will. Those thousands of hours sound like they were definitely worth it!
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by McDermott
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
So many salvos....so little time.
Every time I've heard Martin Hayes talk over the years, he says the same thing--playing at a bad session ruins your playing. When I first heard this years ago I was so relieved and I didn't feel pressured any more to play in my local session anymore. And my playing improved.
While I appreciate the rather noble intent of trying to participate in a poor session to raise the level, it's a very difficult undertaking requiring dynamite, kryptonite and an ITM IED thrown in for good measure to blast through some of the thick-headedness and tone-deafness.
How to find that elusive 5%? My solution has been to travel to places where there's good sessions, which I've found through all the friends I've made far afield who play well and who have a real generous spirit. This has required time and effort; but I reckon a few really great sessions a year is worth it. Also, setting up a house kitchen session w/like minded folks in your area can work as a bromide. It's certainly traditional.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by ClareAnnette
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Joel, I've enjoyed your clips from the first time you posted them.
And I don't think we're all that far apart on our attitudes about this music. But for me there's a difference between wanting to improve (yes, I do something toward that, daily), and wanting to "improve to the highest possible standard." Nope, no standard in it for me. I'm comfortable with where I'm at as a fiddler. Yes, I hope to improve (was just noodling away here on my fourth-finger rolls, in fact). But I'm not measuring myself against someone else, and least of all against someone else's sense of how I should sound. That's a big part of why I don't enter recording studios or music competitions. I don't see what that has to do with playing this music.
My rip on JFK's famous line wasn't meant as a sermon, but as a reminder that people can go to their local sesh hoping to get an ego boost (and come home dashed), or they can go without expecting anyone else there to do anything for them, but with the notion that they might help them have a fun time playing tunes (and come home stoked).
Cheers--
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Clare, good points. I too have travelled for a good session, sometimes thousands of miles. It was always worth it.
But I've also found that it's worth investing the time and effort to support my local session mates in learning, listening, and improving. Twelve years into it now and we have two sessions a week. It's rare that I go a week without several hours of class music among friends. That's remarkable for a small town 6,000 miles west of Galway....
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Interesting about Martin Hayes. The best way to improve your playing is to play with people who know more, and are better than yourself.
Must dash -- I'm off to Mr Edison's Emporium to buy some fresh wax cylinders before the gas man comes to turn off the street lamps. My horse awaits!
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by McDermott
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Sorry Will I didn't mean improving to someone else's standard. I don't want to be like, or better, than anyone else. I just have an idea in my mind somewhere of what I'd like to be as compared to what I am now. It's the age old problem of why artists are never happy.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by McDermott
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Fair enough zippy thats a good point, but I've done that, and it palls, you can end up as a commodity, selling yourself to the masses sure Everyone has a great time but It can feel empty, like you are pulling tricks out of a hat to amuse the crowd. For me the only way it works is with no compromise, None. Then I can feel that I am true to myself and true to the music I love.
I agree with Mtodd that the kind of session he describes is a waste of time, IF the goal of your participation is to learn and/or understand the finer points of the tradition. IMO those sessions are not what trad is about.
Small sessions where the vibe is right, can be of great benefit IMO. But like will CPT says, sessions are not necessarily places to go to achieve something, to take, but places to go to and have fun and to give.
For myself I view the music as art, My 'goal' as such is to be as good an artist as I can be. To make beautiful music. For me if a session is just chaos I leave, I have no interest. If the music is bad , for whatever reason, I have no desire to be part of it, none. Fortunately that is rare to non-existent here, but I have been to sessions where there was too much chaos and I can picture it now, shudder! no thanks.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
I've also heard Martin Hayes say that you can't really know the music well unless you've done a number of things, which includes playing in sessions...
Will---fourth-finger rolls?
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by kennedy
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Sure, I'm there with you. The day you're completely happy with your playing is the day you stop growing musically.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
I offer this little story to aid in pushing the reply total for this discussion over the century mark. To touch hardened hearts, too—why not.
There was an idiot-savant (eejit-savant) who used to show up at a session some distance from here. Verbally, interpersonally, and hygienically he was what many would cruelly call "backwards" or "slow."
But the pub would fall silent when he reached for his ancient harp with those ten sweet, sweet toes. Inevitably he would warble a song of his own composition, "I Have Half a Mind to Tell You (O'Carolan Was Blind)."
What did I learn from this player with the unusual gift? First: I like, really, really need to work on my dexterity. Second: "jam session" can have at least two meanings.
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
I suppose just about anyone could be quoted in such a way as to advance their own session (er, self) interest.
I think it goes without saying that the session is an important part of playing. Duh. How to get some magic some of the time when contending with the 95% factor is the challenge. This thread offers a variety of interesting perspectives about that rather large percentage. CPT, I appreciate your stick-with-it attitude and session gumption; go team!. I've just given up and rolled over in regard to that bleeping 95%....and remodeled my kitchen, for kitchen sessions! Now if I just had a keg fridge....
And also, CPT, I'm pretty happy with my playing now. It's not like I'm really great or anything; but I see no reason not to be happy...and I certainly haven't stopped growing.
I think it's because that fiddler hair shirt I ordered from the Comhaltas gift shop doesn't fit.
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by ClareAnnette
The group effort
music is about expression
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
This'll be the same Martin Hayes that spent years playing in a rock band with Dennis Cahill?
Fair play to him
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by Bren
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Clare, kitchen sessions are a terrific way to go. You're less likely to get that accidental passerby who happens to be a brilliant player, but at least you can filter out the 95%. We've done a fair amount of that here, as well.
And "pretty happy" is fine. Progress is more fun when you focus on what you already do well while continuing to improve the rest. But I said "completely happy." I've never met a *good* musician who was completely happy with her or his playing.
P.S. The best fiddler hair shirts come from Mongolia....
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Kennedy, sorry, I meant third finger rolls. But it's my fourth finger that causes all the problems.
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Just got home from a pub session that I have no hesitation in describing as a "5%er", pretty well as defined in my first post. I think my colleague Mix, who was there, would agree.
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
The group effort of making & learning Irish music
So I'm guessing it was;
"-(not necessarily always Irish, I might add) with not much more than half a dozen well-matched players in a not-too noisy environment where the music is not only played but discussed, and the musicians learn from each other, as well as entertaining the pub (always an important aspect)."
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Correct.
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
I'm still confused. What on earth is a 'chop'?
Btw, sessions are crap, unless they are the secret non-crap ones. That's generally the rule I've gleaned over a couple decades. Players whose confidence outstrips their ability are definitely unwelcome, as are those where confidence and volume can be juggled hand to hand. Beginners and learners are welcomed, but see the last sentence. The only good sessions where quality stops being the 1st, 2nd and 3rd consideration are those where everyone attending are friends and have been a long, long time.
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by Pomme de Terre
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Shorter form: often, but not always.
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by Pomme de Terre
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
A chop is a segment of muscle tissue dissected from the rib and intercostal muscle of an ungulate, usually a young sheep, hence the term lamb chop. Can also be derived from a cow or pig.
Why anyone would bring "chops" to a gathering of Irish traditional music is beyond me. It must be a North American tradition. Maybe something to do with their colonial or hillbilly past. I suspect they bring their "chops" along to their sessions and lay them out on the table. A rather odd ritual.. Not at all polite drawing room behaviour if you ask me.
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by Rudall the time
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
`Chops' is a word Luis Armstrong used when he referred to his own -- or any musician's -- set of skills. We can stop using the word, if you like. I like saying it, because it summons thoughts of the man. My Ma actually got to sit back stage with him one evening in Reno. She was over the moon for months afterward.
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
*Luis* Armstrong? who's that?
An American no doubt. But why would your mother be over the moon that a man showed her his collection of ungulate ribs and intercostal muscles? Is there a subculture of amateur vetinary anatomists? You Americans are very strange people. But who am I to judge. Live and let live.
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by Rudall the time
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
LOUIS for crissake!
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
It's all right, A.Q. Tis merely Danny stirring the pot....
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by Will Harmon
The group effort of making & learning Irish music is (in amerikay)choppy at best
You're 1 of a kind Danny Boy ;)
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
just joking as you guys sussed
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by Rudall the time
The group effort of making & learning Irish music ~ alternatives?
Discussing alternatives ~
Learning tunes and technique, listening and taking them at one's ease ~
no pushing and shoving or one-upmanship, hopefully...
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/20922
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by ceolachan
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Last night, two fiddles a mandolin and a guitar. We've known each other for years. I learned two tunes, and finally filled in the last gaps of a Swedish tune I've been trying to get for a few weeks. I was just thinking what a bloody nonsense this thread is
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by ...
A small group's effort of making & learning Irish music together...
Nice one llig, a lovely and concise description of a great little session... Lead by example...
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by ceolachan
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
...and there you go, isn't a session just like life, what you make of it? Can't wait 'til Sunday so we can go make something good again.
Or, you can make something crappy, I suppose, but what fun is that?
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: The group effort ~
Well, sometimes you haven't much take in it at all and it can be what 'others' make of it. Best to go prepared, in waders...
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by ceolachan
Where's me rubber suit?
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by ceolachan
& the stainless steel fiddle?
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by ceolachan
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
HA! Indeed Mr. C. Only so much you can do in certain situations!
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
One of my local sessions is often just me, another fiddler, flute, whistle, and guitar. The bodhranista who sits in often spends a chunk of the evening chatting with friends at the bar. We're all good friends, and do things other than music together--trips to Yellowstone and Glacier Nat'l Parks, river outings, potlucks, silly movie nights, etc.
Playing like that is a terrific opportunity to make music, listen, learn tunes, improve one's chops, try out new ideas, and generally have fun. The least "waste of time I can think of.
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Thistle-----according to your bio here in the mustard sheets--
your not to be "paroled" until the 29th--what gives ??
bribing Jeremy ??
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by hauke
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
what gives? personal comments made here and on other threads.... that's what gives
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by skin&bow
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Some of the best music I have ever heard or played was in sessions. Live music is so much more than a recording can ever be, because it's interactive. There have been countless times that I have experienced a form of musical euphoria that I have never experienced from listening to a recording.
As far as the "slick, overproduced recordings" that I was referring to, in many cases, these are things where the artist's intention is specifically to push the limits of the tradition. They're often combining multiple forms and styles of music, they're often played in different keys than you would find in a session, and they're often heavily produced to appeal more to someone who is only familiar with popular music recordings. So that's what I mean by them not being a good place to go for learning the nuances of the tradition.
Personally, I would much rather sit down and share some tunes in a session with those artists than listen to their recordings. That doesn't mean that the recordings have no place in the tradition, or that they're not masterpieces in their own right. It just means that you'll get a lot more out of playing tunes in a session than you will listening to that kind of recording.
And if you find yourself going to sessions that are bad for your playing, then don't go... that's your choice. But as a contrasting view, I would say that maybe only 10% of the sessions that I go to feel like a waste of time, and I get something out of the other 90% of the sessions, whether it be musically, or personally, or both.
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by Reverend
The group
That's grand Pete! I always love your comments.
Last night I went to session. Which I have been out of for 3 months; speaking of choices. Definitely not a waste of my time as I did need to be back playing with my mates.
It was noisy enough that I could not hear each player. So I sat myself down by my friend on the box & my friend on flute. I listened for their nuances & they were definitely *making music*. Only hope I contributed something. If I did hinder anything they might have otherwise learnt I am certain they did not hinder me.
I wouldn't want to put any arbitrary number on where our session fits. Last night was not one of the rare 5 %ers. I made the most of the situation, did learn a thing or 2, don't know if I made music ( I am a poor musician but I am *trying to improve my abilities*), best of all though ~ just the craic I needed!
Could someone please email to let me know what Danny McKay has gone off & done? I went to bed last night after leaving him a response. This morning it appears I may have missed something.
Thanks
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by Ben Steen
The individual's effort of making & learning Irish music is essential ~
~ however many 'others' might be about, and whatever the caliber...
There's a lot that can be learned at any session just putting your instrument aside and listening, and using your ears to focus in on what others while are doing, following different leads...
I took the gist of this discussion's title to be raising an old subject we've dealt with many times before here ~ that you can't depend on any session to meet all your needs if you're serious about learning and understanding this music, any music... If you don't step outside that limit, go beyond, seek and ask for guidance, you probably won't ever make much of a musician, though maybe enough for your own satisfaction. Also within, it helps to be an 'active' member rather than a passive one, to do more than just scrape one tune out after another, to get to know your fellow musicians and to start making connections, like arranging to record or learn a few tunes off of someone who's take on it took your interest...
I think a question mark is missing, though I tend to take that for granted when folks post discussions here, when I'm of good spirit, rather than looking at these as closed end statements. There's no room for discussion with 'closed' statements. And while we're thinking 'questions', why not also add a plural to widen it out a bit? ~ and readjust the closing strength of 'waste of time'? That could too easily be taken personally. Even in the worst session I've ever found myself in, I still wouldn't have called it a waste of time.
Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever been in a session I didn't get something out of, including enjoyment, even if it was at a distance nursing a pint. Even that session with the non-stop spoons and bones player, non-stop and really awful, even there I had some pleasure, and a few good pints, though glad I was of the distance between us and the session, as we propped up the bar and played sets of smiles and suppressed chuckling...
Here's another go at the title for this, sort of what I read between the words ~
Are group efforts in making & learning Irish music, including sessions, effective ways of acquiring skill, technique and understanding, or can they potentially do more damage than good?
(Nice one Rev!)
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by ceolachan
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
mtodd -- whatever your differences with Mr. Day, you must admit it was a good wind-up he gave me. I shall take it like a sportsman, and acknowledge as much. Didn't sus it out until I woke up this morning. How long d'you reckon he was lying there in wait? [eyes pile of cigarette buts, and sandwich wrappers] Long time, I'm guessing. On to other matters: Just wanted to shout out "Hey, Ceolachan!"
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Well said Ceo....that's better put than I posted, and actually is closer to what meaning(s) I wanted to get at. I erred on side of brevity perhaps.
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by skin&bow
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Ah AQ perhaps Mr. Day is a tad "prickly"? What's that spider that digs a hole and lies in wait? ;)
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by skin&bow
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
The`Trapdoor" spider. They don't leave litter in front of their burrows. Never seen one take down any thing bigger then a child. Yet. (sorry, couldn't resist that.)
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
like William 'Burrows'?
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by skin&bow
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Well said C.
IMO they can do more damage than good for learners. Heres why; The speed may be too fast and corners cut to keep up. They may be too loud , meaning the learner cant actually here what they sound like. The impression may be that sessions are what its all about, They are not ,IMO. The impression might be that its all about having fun in a social environment, IMO its not, Its about respecting and doing justice to a tradition and culture. Its about doing it right.
The result can be a player who cant play a whole phrase without hideous errors, who can 'play' if that is the word at session speed but sound horrible on their own, yet because they hardly ever play on their own , dont even realise !
Of course not all sessions are alike...
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Don't like that man. I feel sorry for his wife.
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Well said Ionannas. I guess what we're discussing is can a session get in the way of the process? The process of doing it right? the process of actually learning how to listen and play the music well in a solo context which, surely, can only make playing in a social/group context that much better. Obviously that is not the case for Will and Llig...but they're already there and were decades ago. They can lead and play well in any situation. They and others like them, Kilfarboy etc are accomplished players. And yourself too by the sounds of it.
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by skin&bow
Who? ~ William Burrows or me?
Howdy AQ...
It musn't be me, my wife is reasonably cheery...
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by ceolachan
The lonesome effort of making & learning Irish music
mtodd, you seemed to have missed a few posts of Will's concerning his time spent woodshedding.
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by Ben Steen
The individual's effort of making & learning Irish music is essential ~
Quoting an email to mtodd, and a nod to Ionannas ~
Preferences ~ a few tunes played passably over a slew butchered...
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by ceolachan
Will's 'woodshedding' ~ an affirmation of faith...
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by ceolachan
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
ceol -- Unless you too have been using your wife for a re-creation of the William Tell target shoot, then we're talking only about Burrows.... for now. I've got my eye on you.
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
ah, shoot, i knew that....oh, sorry, bad word choice.
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by skin&bow
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
In at least one way, sessions and music lessons are similar: it's up to *you* to do the woodshedding to make progress between the weekly "lesson." It's also up to *you* to pay attention and learn what you can. Going to a lesson or session every week won't make you a better player unless you put the time in the other 6 days of the week.
The less experienced a player you are, the more true this is.
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
I think that playing music with other musicians whether or not it is in a session or some other type of situation has helped improve my playing and helped make me a better musician. However, I didn't start making music with other musicians until I had spent a lot of time practicing alone at home so I think there is some benefit to be gained from solo practice also.
And, yes, it does matter and it does make a difference what type of session you are participating in and whom you are playing music with.
For example, when I began playing piano at a local Blues Jam in 1990, there were some semi-retired professional musicians who participated in this Blues Jam on a regular basis. Yes I did learn a lot about playing music with other musicians at a jam session by working with these semi-retired professional musicians.
# Posted on March 26th 2009 by fauxcelt
The individual's efforts in making & learning Irish music are essential ~
So WIll, does that mean we don't have to bother anymore?
# Posted on March 26th 2009 by ceolachan
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Hmph. This thread has me wishing I hadn't read it. It's bad enough that I have to battle my inner demons to screw up the courage to even show up at our local session prepared to play something...and now I'm getting the message not to bother??
Well.
I think it's up to each person to work on the finer points of their individual playing on their own. I don't go to the session expecting to learn technique. I go to play music with other people, a joy which I can't experience in my woodshed, no matter how attentively I practice. I go to be inspired by the playing of the folks who have been at it longer than I have (which would be ALL of them - someone has to be at the bottom of the heap, you know). I go to participate in that traditional relationship that (if I'm understanding this right) sessions naturally foster - mentoring each other/learning from each other. I go to get lost in some live music and a drink, a welcome break from my day-to-day. I go because it makes me smile and I try really, really hard to contribute something that makes others smile, too. Even if it's just my stubbornness or my shiny instrument. Even if it's just the punters smiling.
And another point, while I'm at it - I read here that one should learn tunes live and in person, by ear. And then I read that slow sessions should be outlawed. And then I read that one should not rely on dots or midis to learn tunes. But then I read that one should not show up at a session if one doesn't know the tunes. Catch-22, anyone?
At least the folks at my session seem happy to have me there. I think I'll go with that.
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by worthy
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Amy, do bear in mind that the conflicting or paradoxical advice you're reading is coming from different people who fundamentally disagree on some of this stuff.
I think a wise and well-run slow (I'd call it a "tune learning") session is a good way for newcomers to this music to learn tunes. But it has to serve as a stepping stone and an adjunct to real sessions, not an end in itself.
And even better than a slow session is finding a good player who's wiling to sit down with you one-on-one and swap tunes.
Never mind all the pot stirrers here....
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: The group effort of making & learning Irish music is essentially a waste of time
Sir, I deeply resent being called a pot stirrer!! Even if tangentially (and possibly not at all).... pshaw, Sir! I must needs keep my pot always on constant boil -- *hot* as it were, Sir -- as doth Jeremy himself no doubt by hosting this said board. And may I suggest that those who cannot stand the heat...howsoever it may have occurred...vacate the said kitchen? Begging your indulgence,
Your most humble servant,
Potluck
# Posted on March 27th 2009 by skin&bow