Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
In the Bothy Band set (Kesh, Give us a Drink of Water...) the second tune varies considerably from the sheet music under Give us a drink of Water. I have found a recording on line of the Drink of Water tune played as the sheet music, and someone doing the tune like the Bothy band and calling it Give us a Drink of Water. The two are too different for me to think that they are variations of the same tune, but maybe I'm wrong. Both are slip jigs. Any thoughts?
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
Steven, tunes on paper are almost never the authoritative version of the tune, only a transcription of the way someone played it at one time. Even people like Junior Crehan and Ed Reavy played their tunes differently from how they wrote them. You're best off using written music as only one source of many.
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
Right. Still, once in awhile, you know you've got the wrong tune if the sheet music or the name you're looking at is very different from what you're hearing. Variations are fine, but sometimes it takes a bit more digging. Thanks.
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
Actually, Michael, you can look at it the other way as well---the tune section here (plus the comment section on each tune) is a rich source of information on all the different variations of a tune that people play.
But generally, yes, I agree, the transcriptions are less useful than one would hope, and I never count on a tune written here as the one that I will need.
Steven, why are you analyzing the music so closely, anyhow? Are you looking for the "official" written version of a tune? I hope not, because there really is no such thing. Your best bet might be to learn the version you want by ear and then transcribe it yourself.
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
Isn't the point that this whole process of learning, and learning about, tunes and the music is a long meandering one? (the recent analogy of a maze was an excellent one). No one source is going to be sufficient, whether written in a database or otherwise transmitted. Frustration in the search can even be a motivating factor.
Aural learning will always be the most direct source for learning.
Any more than that & you begin to analyze. Something contrary between these terms ~ analyze vs. play. Sessions are about playing, & yet someone will always be eager & curious for something more. Just another day on the mustard board.
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
Great points. Kennedy, to your point. I am not trying to over analyze the tunes. Far from it. I have been on the other end of "knowing tunes I picked up along the way without knowing their name." That can be all right, but knowing what it's called has its advantages, as well. I want to bring tunes to a session and at least know their name, whenever possible. I admit that there are times when it doesn't matter, but now and then, it does.
I agree that while the sheet music here can be flawed, or even way off, it's a good starting point to see if you've got the right tune. If not, more investigation may be done, if you want to.
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
Steven, the tune section is grand for sussing out tune names. Cds are notorious for giving alternate & even incorrect titles, listing sets without the individual names, attributing a tune to the wrong composer, etc. It is often maddening, & while Michael's point is well taken, I just don't think it would be the mustard board without the tunes, list of recordings, & comments.
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
Random...
Agreed. The recording section is very helpful in this regard. And you're right that many recordings mess up the names, or don't give them all, so before you can be 100% sure of the name, some investigation is required.
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
Ha ha Jim I've taken some phrases from this thread and stitched them together in a different order, just for you:
Give us a drink... the usual stuff... thanks very much... Lots of confusion... Right... I'm bad... at... tunes... Swaggering... pointlessness... Something contrary between Llig's ears... about... sheet music... yes... often maddening... Isn't this whole process a long meandering one?... There's an element here of... flawed, or even way off... comments...
I want to bring tunes to a session... Sessions are about playing, & yet someone will always be eager & curious for.... "official"... thinking... But generally, yes, I agree... There's ... frustration... and... notorious... comment... here... Just another day on the mustard board.
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
"There's an element here of falling into the trap of thinking that what goes on on the yellow board is of importance in Irish music."
Quite right, and every time this place winds me up with it's constant stream of drivel, I remind my self of it's irrelevance and it makes me feel much better.
"a rich source of information."
Nope, it certainly isn't. It's a second hand, un navigable mountain of random submissions from people who, for the most part, haven't a feckin clue.
To lean this music you have to be in the maze, making real choices, hearing, listening, playing. I get the impression that most people here regard this place as a resource to assist them through the maze, a kind of map of the maze. Bollox, it has no authority. It's as close to being useful as those wretched midi files are to being music.
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
'I get the impression that most people here regard this place as a resource to assist them through the maze'
I get the impression that most people here use the forum to brag about how they think they've already got through the maze, and to lecture other people on how to get there (without accompaniment or maps of course). Shame it usually leads up to too many dead-ends eh? Talk about the blind leading the blind! Talking of which, me and the missus (Lady McDermott) are thinking of taking in a few blind harpers in return for a planxty or two.
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
To quote what I said of the maze:
"Tunes in front of you, to the side of you and behind you. You keep battering away at random until you eventually start to discriminate a path through the maze.
For a while, you think there is a place in the maze where you think it will be solved, and you strive for it. But enlightenment comes when you realise that not only is there no solution to what you perceive to be a problem, but that there was never any problem in the first place. And you simply begin to enjoy your lack of destination."
The maze can never be got through, and any assumption that it can, is flawed.
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
Despite lligs insistence to the contrary this site is very helpful for many people including myself with the huge tune data base and wide breadth of knowledge displayed.
What maze is that ? You are lost in a maze llig and cant find your way out, is that right? but the maze is a figment of your imagination, it doesnt exist, so you are lost in your own mind, which explains a lot.
There is no maze, its a simple and straight path, no complication about it. What complicates things is false analogies and false reasoning that create confusion in the minds of uninformed people who then think they are in a maze and that they are then lost and need someone who has 'been through' this maze to lead them!!
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
Come come munchkins no need for disagreements on such a lovely morning. Picture me a balcony. Above a voice sings low:
Some day I'll wish upon a star (of munster)
And wake up where the (moving) clouds are far behind me
Where troubles melt like lemon drops (of brandy)
Away above (the smoky) chimney tops
That's where you'll find me
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
I prefer to glean the knowledge of real people whose playing I enjoy and whose company I keep, than glean second-hand displays of inaccurate typing from questionable, anonymous and silent transcribers
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
here's a simple analogy- music is like food , when you need it , there is no need for lengthy explication or discourse or analysis. You know when you're hungry and you eat. Bon Appetit , everyone! All this fuss is a bit wearying. some people eat fried crickets, some don't
cheers pipewatcher
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
That's a strange analogy that can only come from the modern world. But fitting for this debate. You want a tune, just look here, there's thousands, available now for consumption, readily prepared for whenever you feel hungry for them.
Do you never prepare food, to be eaten later? Or heaven forbid, grow food, kill food? Get invited to share food with your friends? Go out for food and an evening of chat?
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
I love the title of this thread by the way. We may have steered off the specifics of the original question, but the title above every post still works splendidly
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
Yum fried crickets are lovely! dont knock them if you haven't tried them!
<<I prefer to glean the knowledge of real people whose playing I enjoy and whose company I keep, than glean second-hand displays of inaccurate typing from questionable, anonymous and silent transcribers>>
I agree but we dont all have those resources available. Personally I work on my tunes day in day out and I live in the middle of nowhere. Internet sites can offer unparalleled access to the combined wisdom of generations. I am happy to acknowledge these gifts and offer thanks.
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
"For us, as a family, music is like food. When you need it you don't have to explain why, because it is basic to life." -Ali Akbar Khan.****Born in 1922 in East Bengal he said it better'n me
Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
In the Bothy Band set (Kesh, Give us a Drink of Water...) the second tune varies considerably from the sheet music under Give us a drink of Water. I have found a recording on line of the Drink of Water tune played as the sheet music, and someone doing the tune like the Bothy band and calling it Give us a Drink of Water. The two are too different for me to think that they are variations of the same tune, but maybe I'm wrong. Both are slip jigs. Any thoughts?
SH
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by Steven Hawson
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/661
"The Swaggering Jig"
April 28th 2002 by Jeremy.
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by Random_notes
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
Ah, so it's not Give us a Drink of Water. Thanks very much. What gives, where they too drunk to get the name right?
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by Steven Hawson
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
The usual stuff. Lots of confusion when tune names are discussed. Some tunes have more than 20 names. Other names cover various tunes, like here.
BTW
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/635
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by Henk Bos
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
Right. I'm bad with tune names myself, so I suppose I shouldn't complain. Thank you.
SH
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by Steven Hawson
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
Steven, tunes on paper are almost never the authoritative version of the tune, only a transcription of the way someone played it at one time. Even people like Junior Crehan and Ed Reavy played their tunes differently from how they wrote them. You're best off using written music as only one source of many.
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by kennedy
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
I don't think Ed Reavy wrote down is tunes. ;)
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by Random_notes
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
Right. Still, once in awhile, you know you've got the wrong tune if the sheet music or the name you're looking at is very different from what you're hearing. Variations are fine, but sometimes it takes a bit more digging. Thanks.
SH
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by Steven Hawson
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
Is not this thread an illustration of the, at best, pointlessness of the session.org tune section? At worst, danger?
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by llig leahcim
Playing tunes is the point Michael. Right?
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by Random_notes
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
Actually, Michael, you can look at it the other way as well---the tune section here (plus the comment section on each tune) is a rich source of information on all the different variations of a tune that people play.
But generally, yes, I agree, the transcriptions are less useful than one would hope, and I never count on a tune written here as the one that I will need.
Steven, why are you analyzing the music so closely, anyhow? Are you looking for the "official" written version of a tune? I hope not, because there really is no such thing. Your best bet might be to learn the version you want by ear and then transcribe it yourself.
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by kennedy
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
The 2 tunes are quite different.
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by Random_notes
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
Isn't the point that this whole process of learning, and learning about, tunes and the music is a long meandering one? (the recent analogy of a maze was an excellent one). No one source is going to be sufficient, whether written in a database or otherwise transmitted. Frustration in the search can even be a motivating factor.
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by Here Lyeth
Tunes section of thesession.org ?
Aural learning will always be the most direct source for learning.
Any more than that & you begin to analyze. Something contrary between these terms ~ analyze vs. play. Sessions are about playing, & yet someone will always be eager & curious for something more. Just another day on the mustard board.
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by Random_notes
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
Great points. Kennedy, to your point. I am not trying to over analyze the tunes. Far from it. I have been on the other end of "knowing tunes I picked up along the way without knowing their name." That can be all right, but knowing what it's called has its advantages, as well. I want to bring tunes to a session and at least know their name, whenever possible. I admit that there are times when it doesn't matter, but now and then, it does.
I agree that while the sheet music here can be flawed, or even way off, it's a good starting point to see if you've got the right tune. If not, more investigation may be done, if you want to.
SH
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by Steven Hawson
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
Steven, the tune section is grand for sussing out tune names. Cds are notorious for giving alternate & even incorrect titles, listing sets without the individual names, attributing a tune to the wrong composer, etc. It is often maddening, & while Michael's point is well taken, I just don't think it would be the mustard board without the tunes, list of recordings, & comments.
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by Random_notes
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
Random...
Agreed. The recording section is very helpful in this regard. And you're right that many recordings mess up the names, or don't give them all, so before you can be 100% sure of the name, some investigation is required.
SH
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by Steven Hawson
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
There's an element here of falling into the trap of thinking that what goes on on the yellow board is of importance in Irish music.
Jim
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by skerries
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
Ha ha Jim I've taken some phrases from this thread and stitched them together in a different order, just for you:
Give us a drink... the usual stuff... thanks very much... Lots of confusion... Right... I'm bad... at... tunes... Swaggering... pointlessness... Something contrary between Llig's ears... about... sheet music... yes... often maddening... Isn't this whole process a long meandering one?... There's an element here of... flawed, or even way off... comments...
I want to bring tunes to a session... Sessions are about playing, & yet someone will always be eager & curious for.... "official"... thinking... But generally, yes, I agree... There's ... frustration... and... notorious... comment... here... Just another day on the mustard board.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Joel McDermott
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
"There's an element here of falling into the trap of thinking that what goes on on the yellow board is of importance in Irish music."
Quite right, and every time this place winds me up with it's constant stream of drivel, I remind my self of it's irrelevance and it makes me feel much better.
"a rich source of information."
Nope, it certainly isn't. It's a second hand, un navigable mountain of random submissions from people who, for the most part, haven't a feckin clue.
To lean this music you have to be in the maze, making real choices, hearing, listening, playing. I get the impression that most people here regard this place as a resource to assist them through the maze, a kind of map of the maze. Bollox, it has no authority. It's as close to being useful as those wretched midi files are to being music.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
It may be a constant stream of drivel, but I am still recovering from the helpless laughter caused by the session etiquette thread.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by RichardB
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
Of course, a lot of the drivel is a hoot, or at least it can be steered into a hoot. There's no other reason to be here.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
'I get the impression that most people here regard this place as a resource to assist them through the maze'
I get the impression that most people here use the forum to brag about how they think they've already got through the maze, and to lecture other people on how to get there (without accompaniment or maps of course). Shame it usually leads up to too many dead-ends eh? Talk about the blind leading the blind! Talking of which, me and the missus (Lady McDermott) are thinking of taking in a few blind harpers in return for a planxty or two.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Joel McDermott
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
To quote what I said of the maze:
"Tunes in front of you, to the side of you and behind you. You keep battering away at random until you eventually start to discriminate a path through the maze.
For a while, you think there is a place in the maze where you think it will be solved, and you strive for it. But enlightenment comes when you realise that not only is there no solution to what you perceive to be a problem, but that there was never any problem in the first place. And you simply begin to enjoy your lack of destination."
The maze can never be got through, and any assumption that it can, is flawed.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
Hoot hoot. Ah you're a wise owl Llig.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Joel McDermott
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
I know, the drivel is dribbling down my shirt front
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
I hope it's coming out of both sides of your mouth.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Joel McDermott
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
Tunes to the left of me, tunes to the right. Here I am, stuck in the middle with goo.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Joel McDermott
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
Despite lligs insistence to the contrary this site is very helpful for many people including myself with the huge tune data base and wide breadth of knowledge displayed.
What maze is that ? You are lost in a maze llig and cant find your way out, is that right? but the maze is a figment of your imagination, it doesnt exist, so you are lost in your own mind, which explains a lot.
There is no maze, its a simple and straight path, no complication about it. What complicates things is false analogies and false reasoning that create confusion in the minds of uninformed people who then think they are in a maze and that they are then lost and need someone who has 'been through' this maze to lead them!!
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
Travellers tales, unreliable maps. Directions from the guy in the pub. Dragons to be goaded.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by david_h
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
Simple and straight path eh? More like the yellow brick tar road to Sligo my pretty. Oh I wish had a brain.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Joel McDermott
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
Ionannas ... "not only is there no solution to what you perceive to be a problem, but that there was never any problem in the first place."
When a man's an empty kettle, he should be on his metal.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
Come come munchkins no need for disagreements on such a lovely morning. Picture me a balcony. Above a voice sings low:
Some day I'll wish upon a star (of munster)
And wake up where the (moving) clouds are far behind me
Where troubles melt like lemon drops (of brandy)
Away above (the smoky) chimney tops
That's where you'll find me
I still wish I had a brain though . . .
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Joel McDermott
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
I prefer to glean the knowledge of real people whose playing I enjoy and whose company I keep, than glean second-hand displays of inaccurate typing from questionable, anonymous and silent transcribers
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
I'll fight you with one hand behind my back. I'll fight you with my eyes closed
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
here's a simple analogy- music is like food , when you need it , there is no need for lengthy explication or discourse or analysis. You know when you're hungry and you eat. Bon Appetit , everyone! All this fuss is a bit wearying. some people eat fried crickets, some don't
cheers pipewatcher
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by pipewatcher
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
That's a strange analogy that can only come from the modern world. But fitting for this debate. You want a tune, just look here, there's thousands, available now for consumption, readily prepared for whenever you feel hungry for them.
Do you never prepare food, to be eaten later? Or heaven forbid, grow food, kill food? Get invited to share food with your friends? Go out for food and an evening of chat?
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
Ha, ha, ha
Ho, ho, ho
And a couple of tra - la - las
That's how we laugh the day away
With Llig and Lonannas
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Joel McDermott
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
I love the title of this thread by the way. We may have steered off the specifics of the original question, but the title above every post still works splendidly
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
I meant "the goading of dragons" in a general sense.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by david_h
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
Yum fried crickets are lovely! dont knock them if you haven't tried them!
<<I prefer to glean the knowledge of real people whose playing I enjoy and whose company I keep, than glean second-hand displays of inaccurate typing from questionable, anonymous and silent transcribers>>
I agree but we dont all have those resources available. Personally I work on my tunes day in day out and I live in the middle of nowhere. Internet sites can offer unparalleled access to the combined wisdom of generations. I am happy to acknowledge these gifts and offer thanks.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by the wicked hacker
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
"For us, as a family, music is like food. When you need it you don't have to explain why, because it is basic to life." -Ali Akbar Khan.****Born in 1922 in East Bengal he said it better'n me
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by pipewatcher
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
wasn't knocking them. have tried them. prefer bacon ...
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by pipewatcher
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
Ionannas, you must be desperately lonely. It's a fate you don't deserve. Why not come with us to OZ. The wizard is sure to get you some friends
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
Traveller, there is no path. Paths are made by walking.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by mtodd
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
Zen Trad! Very wise, grasshopper-san. That makes me want to start doing some of that Tibetan Monk throat singing I heard on NPR this morning.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCkK1AqsIAI
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Give us a drink of what? Bothy band vs. sheet music
LOL. not at all LLig, I could do with More space not less!
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by the wicked hacker