I''ve been playing guitar for a while. Mainly American "folk" music like Paul Simon, James Taylor, Bob Dylan. My parents are from Ireland so I always kind of overlooked Irish music. But the Pogues got me into it, and from there I started listening to more traditional music.
Hello Patrick, someone will be along soon with good information I'm sure. Yeah, keep a D whistle handy & just listen to the different rhythms (dance rhythms) get the tunes in your head. There may well be a session near where you live. If so listen in there. In the mean time here is a session clip I really enjoy. Hope you do too;
Tigh Hughes Pub in Spiddal http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YIrzeY9iwo
I don't read music or ABC's very well. It's helpful to learn a little and it's not difficult.
Best advise is to listen listen listen listen listen listen and listen. Listen to the entire spectrum of Irish trad from the old stuff recorded in the 2O's to the people that revived the tradition in the 50's 60's and 70's to people playing now. Go to pubs and festivals. Check out some of the advice on this site about backing tunes. Eventually you may want to pick up a melody instrument like a tin whistle, mandolin or a banjo. Stay clear of concertinas. Only deranged people play them.
Learn some tunes on the whistle and then transfer them to the guitar. The latest CD from Seamus Creagh RIP could be helpfull, he plays a bunch of tunes slowly especially for learners. Im sure there are plenty of book/CD combinations available for learners.
Listen in great detail to good trad guitarists. I would say two absolutely must have albums if you want to play trad are 'In Play' by Liz Carroll and John Doyle and 'The Lonesome Touch' by Martin Hayes and Dennis Cahill. John Doyles DVD would serve you very well.
Llig is in fact completely right, the most frustrating thing for more experienced players is when folk wade in with a pile of chords without actually realizing that the tunes are not just a pile of notes. You MUST learn them, at least in your head otherwise you will almost always be weakening to some of the lead players.
Listen in great detail and enjoy yourself.
Do I remember when I was new to it? I remember when I was new to the decision to wanting to lean:
A wall of such splendid melody. Stretching higher than I could see, further to the left and right as I could see, a seemingly impenetrable barrier of marvellous tune after tune after tune.
How do you get through that wall? Well, you start out by battering away at random at some bricks and you discover another layer beyond it. And you find yourself in a maze with tunes in front of you, to the side of you and behind you. You keep battering away at random until you eventually start to discriminate a path through the maze.
For a while, you think there is a place in the maze where you think it will be solved, and you strive for it. But enlightenment comes when you realise that not only is there no solution to what you perceive to be a problem, but that there was never any problem in the first place. And you simply begin to enjoy your lack of destination.
Yes that did answer my question, but in a philosophical sense lol.
But what I meant was like shoudl I start by learning like "tunes" where I pluck like a melody and a bas kind of thing or accompanying chords? What is used in Irish music? Because I've only ever been to one session and the guitar player looked like he was just playing chords up the fretboard.
If you want to play the tunes, the actual melodies, get a whistle or some other typical session instrument (flute, uilleann pipes, fiddle, tenor banjo, concertina, button accordion).
If you want to stay on guitar, you'll mostly be relegated to playing chords behind the tunes. Go look at Al Brown's member profile for more advice on that.
You'd be playing, ideally, a mix of chords and melody. The question is how much of each, and that comes down to taste. There are many guitar players who think "ah this stuff is in D or G" and just stick to the home chords, but they rarely ever add anything to a session. The point is to add something, not just chug along.
You'll find a lot of guitar playing on newer trad recordings (from the 60's to present). Try to get a feel of what each of them are doing, and how it works for the tunes. Eventually you'll know what you like and what you don't, but at the start it will all sound marvelous. Making the connection between knowing the tunes (in your head, on the whistle, or on the guitar in melody form) and making the chords come out and add lift is just a matter of time.
Also, some people use standard tuning, others use DADGAD, others use drop D. Experiment with em all. Find what works.
Down 'yer in deepest Kernow I have limited experience of good backers, but I can tell you without reservation that all the best ones I've come across can also play melodies on another instrument. Guitars and bodhrans and other "backing" are optional extras in Irish music and more often than not they detract from it rather than add to it, and that is often because the perpetrators are arrogant enough to think they can do it without actually knowing the tunes inside out("Oh, all the tunes have repeating patterns - hear a few and you've heard 'em all") . So get yourself a mandolin or something and learn some tunes on it. Play that in a session with other people doing the backing and you'll soon come to appreciate what melody-players are up against. If you decide you still want to do the backing after that, you and your fellow sessioneers will at least have the benefit of your new insights.
Learn some melodies to some tunes first. Get recordings or go to sessions and listen. Ask someone you know at a session what the tune titles are. Also, there are a lot of sessions online that keep track of the tunes they play, you can find them by poking around the internet.
If you go to the Members section of The Session and click on Tunebook, it will display the number of times each tune here has been added to someone's tunebook. That will give you an idea of some tunes to learn. If you click on a tune and go to the Downloads tab, you can click on the midi file to listen to the tune. You can download the midi file if you right click the midi.
Be warned that the midi files are generated from ABC and don't really sound like the tune is played, but it does give you a pretty good idea of how it sounds.
While traditional Irish musicians don't seem to feel that guitars add much to the music, I disagree. Of course, I am a guitar player! But...if you learn to play the melody, you will be able to figure out the chords, and through time, learn strumming patterns that add to the music as well as chord variations that will do the same.
I play by ear, and can figure out appropriate chords for most tunes within a minute or two, but the tunes that I can play the melody for, I remember quite well and can play them much better. The most critical skill to acquire is listening. Listen, listen, listen. Learning the read music is not at all critical to becoming a good session player. In fact, it will retard your progress. When you are reading music, you are not listening.
If you want more advice, click on my name and email me. Happy to help!
<<While traditional Irish musicians don't seem to feel that guitars add much to the music,>>
That is a huge and inaccurate generalisation, though understandable thinking of some peoples attitudes here. A typical gigging duo comprises guitar and melody instrument. For example Jackie Daly has recently teemed up with a guitarist and is gigging as a duo. Liz Carrol plays with who? A guitarist.
. The guitar is highly valued in many traditional circles and sessions. What is universally disliked is guitarists who cant play trad joining in and and playing the wrong chords in the wrong place.
To be honest when I read the OP query it never occurred to me he was enquiring about backing, I supposed he wished to play the tunes.
At my session people often come up to us asking about
how to get started. Almost always, they're thinking of buying
a bodhran or they want to jam along on the guitar. Nobody wants
to actually learn tunes. Too hard I guess.
Random notes - thanks for the link, that was fantastic! I liked the left-handed flute player setting the flute aside to take a swig from his pint about halfway through...Does anyone know the names of the tunes? I've heard them around here, but nobody ever seems to remember names - part of "The Tradition", I guess.
Llig - thank you for that beautiful, poetic description of this fascinating puzzle that we've all been drawn into.
Patrick - I'm simply echoing what's already been said; if you want to play melody, get yourself a proper instrument - the whistle's a good start, IMHO. If you want to be a guitar backer, you still need to know the tunes, at least enough to hum them. And don't muck up the rhythm, whatever you do. It's not easy, but for me it's been immensely rewarding and great fun. Email me, too, if you need help.
Enjoy the ride.
Hi Patrick. I'm not going to try to tell you how to play the thing, but here are a few general things to remember:
1. You'll find a lot of rubbish written on these pages about the guitar in ITM, usually by people who have no clue about the instrument. No-one here has the right to tell you what instruments are valid in any genre of traditional music. This particularly applies to 'session' music, which is largely a modern invention anyway. Look into the origins of other 'traditional' instruments in ITM and you'll find that most are foreign imports. Italian violin anyone?
2. There seems to be an acceptance in folk music that quality of sound, and an ability to actually play an instrument well, are not as important as 'immersion' in 'the music'. This notion seems to be prevalent amongst some of our scraping, parping and tooting friends on this site, and tends to give ITM a bad name outside the people who play. Please learn how to play your instrument properly. There are many important things to consider with the guitar (left and right hand positions, tone quality, attack etc.), which are equally important regardless of the type of music you play. By the way, I've seen many more sessions ruined by poor fiddlers and whistle payers than guitarists. Too many ITM musicians are not concerned with musical quality. They just want to be seen as 'tradtional' players. This concept is impossible to define. Tradition is a living and evolving entity. It's not acceptable to arrive at a point in history and decide that it should go no further. Most of the instruments commonly used in ITM are in a state of flux and technical development. These developments bring new possibilities to the music, and are important features of the evolving tradition. The development of the Irish pipes in the last hundred years or so is a good example.
3. I don't know much about rocket science, but I do know that the guitar is an incredibly difficult instrument to play well. It's also a very versatile instrument, and over time you will find that you can play melody, chords and other accompaniment styles that lift the music and greatly extend its dynamic range. Mix O'lydian has a great website you may find helpful: http://www.intermix.freeuk.com/
4. ITM is certainly not an easy route into guitar playing. It is a complex and often ambiguous genre of music. This is where some people start to dislike the guitar in ITM, because there is a general feeling that guitarists just turn up at sessions and bang away at inappropriate chords/rhythms. There's a lot more to learn than just three or four chords in each key.
5. As for any kind of music or instrument, listening to others is essential. As a guitarist though, I find it most helpful to not listen to too much guitar music. It's much more interesting, and challenging, to listen to other instruments, and to try to translate what they are doing on to the guitar. This will also help you to develop your own style.
6. Playing by ear is a great skill, but not the only one you need to become a good musician. As a beginner(ish) guitarist, you will find this very frustrating when you try to play ITM. Learning to read music and/or tab will do wonders for your repertoire and understanding of your instrument. Contrary to what you may read on these pages, learning tunes with sheet music is not a sin, although of course it's important to listen as well. You are musician. That's what musicians do. They listen.
7. Learning the melodies, or at least understanding the melodies, is very important. This will help you to understand the subtelties and beauty of this music, and enable you to provide a richer and more meaningful accompaniment.
8. You'll find that most real life session members are far more accommodating and friendly than the arrogant, pompous, often anonymous and vaguely ridiculous old duffers who lurk around this forum. I've laughed out loud when I've actually heard some of their recordings on the internet after reading their pontifications here. Don't get me wrong though: there are plenty of great musicians here as well!
9. Be prepared for a long haul when it comes to playing the guitar in ITM. There is an often an expectation that guitarists should 'know their place' in this music and sit in the corner as quietly as possible while the big boys, butchers and carpenters saw up the tunes. Ignore all this, but remember to not overpower the music. While the guitar can add a lot to this music, it is also equally capable of subtracting the same amount.
10. Becoming a good musician is a lifetime commitment. Never rest on your laurels and kid yourself that you have 'arrived'. Try to learn something new every time you pick up your instrument, and be your own greatest critic.
11. Don't believe everything you read/see on the internet! You may find it helpful to have a few real lessons from a decent teacher who can show you how to avoid bad habits, which can lead to problems later on, including serious physical injury.
Good luck with the guitar. I hope you find it a beautiful and deeply satisfying instrument to play. The guitar bashing that goes on around here is usually unhelpful, untrue and detrimental to the possibilities of the instrument. Best wishes from Joel.
"Look into the origins of other 'traditional' instruments in ITM and you'll find that most are foreign imports. Italian violin anyone?"
This is interesting to me a woman appeared at our local session with a tambourine. She seemed clueless about the music and when I mentioned to her that it was not part of trad irish music she argued that it is an ancient instrument and is indeed part of the tradition and she asked if I was familiar with a book written by one of the Chieftains. I responded that, anyway, it was not a part of our session and that none of the regulars want to hear a tambourine. This was not well received by her, but it's the truth.
You might also want to look at a site called Celtic Guitar Talk, particularly this thread: http://www.celticguitartalk.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2669
A lot of people there are using open tunings and fingerstyle arrangements, very satisfying to play on your own but it doesn't translate as well to session playing. There's certainly lots of approaches suggested there though.
Joel, she must really get around because I live in California. Maybe there is a gang of them dedicated to imposing themselves on unwary sessioners. Others at my session agree with me but did not speak up. I had to say something...
I gather that in rocket science it has happened that figures calculated in one system (e.g., metric) have been assumed by another team to be in another system (e.g., Imperial). I don't know if this has ever led on to disaster.
But many sessions exhibit this kind of rocket science in action, as some opt tp play at XXX miles an hour, and some at XXX kilometres an hour...
llig's description of battering away at the tune wall reminded me of the urban battles in "Saving Private Ryan".
But, to get back to the original question............
..... ( oh, and nobody mentioned Paul Brady as a model of guitar-player to listen to, when he has his traditional head on ).........
......some recent pertinent discusions here on this forum on this matter anyway, but, yes, it's originally a melodic tradition, even solo, so the session style is only, like, 50 years old, with guitar and bodhran and bouzouki and tenor banjo as recent additions.
Despite your protestations, and he IS a curmudgen, but llig is right about needing to learn the tunes. I've been hanging around with people playing ITM for 40 years now, and still someone can come up with a new tune and I haven't a CLUE how to back it ( mainly nowadays on bouzouki, but that's because I prefer the option of playing the melody wherever possible, and the guitar doesn't cut through as well ). If you don't know the tune, and especially as a newbie, how can you have a chance of accompanying it ? You need to be able to recognize rhythm, key, and chord progression in probably no more than 3 times through the tune - takes a long while to get to be that good.
Get your whistle up to speed, learn the most popular tunes on this forum, take up the mandolin,or octave mando, or bouzouki, for the tunes. Leave your guitar at home, two at a session is one more than needed anyway. Record your local session ( with permission ) and try to play along with it at home. Get the local session guitarist to give you some tips, perhaps working with one melody musician. Go out and just listen to a few more sessions. Be aware this can become a dangerous obsession.
And never heard of an ITM guitarist with a Gibson Dove - not a bad guitar but unusual in ITM.
It also occurs to me that, if so far you have been playing singer-songwriter sort of finger-style guitar, then your instrument, if you choose to remain with that, may well be too lightly strung for effective use in the noise and chaos of a session. You might need to both go for the next heaviest string gauge and also raise the action slightly, to avoid string buzzing.
But you probably have a lot of work to do before that is an issue.
PS You can't read music YET. I would recommend the effort of learning it, both the standard script and ABC; it's all grist to the mill, to be able to learn the tunes every possible way, the ear method too.
Go to your local session, sit back and record it. This way you can sit at home and even slow the recording down, and practice until you make sense of it. Above all, don't go into a session, not knowing what you are doing and hunt and peck for the right keys and chords. Also be aware most melody players will not be telling you what key they are playing or will be going into. Even if they do, they often get it wrong or leave out that part B is in a different key. There is a reason.... they think in tunes, not in keys. You need to start thinking like a melody player in order to accompany properly. Once you have that down, it's tricky because the tune has to be held in your mind while you play something else.
By practicing home alone, you will hopefully learn to discern the proper keys yourself, learn the timing, learn some of the tunes by memory, develop good relative pitch, which comes from memory and immersion. The suggestion to use a whistle was not a joke, it helps you understand the structures of the tunes. You will always be more welcome at a session if you play a melody instrument too, and it's fun to be able to do it anyway. It will always help your guitar backing, never hinder it.
Guitar, played in depth, is very complex and is not easy. Many think they can't cut it as a melody player so take up the guitar to be part of the session, and rotate a few chords in each key, hoping to get them right 50% of the time anyway. There are too many like that, and it's why people can cringe when a guitar case is seen coming through the door. Some will also try to toss you, throw you...or just test you. The worst of them will run you off with intimidation, so don't set yourself up for that. It's not like folk music circles where everything is just dandy no matter what, and the Irish don't tend to hold back when they don't like something. So know your music or at least how to play on a few tunes pretty decently before you venture in, The music is held as very precious and taken very seriously, it's not like Folk-Jams where anything goes.
If you do it little by little, at home, and then start showing up and playing only on the ones you know, you will start to really enjoy it. You might find a teacher to give you some advice, or talk to another guitar player if you like their way of playing, for some ideas.
Guernsey Pete.... I have always remained with fingerstyle, and light guage strings, and can get pretty strong on the attack and volume when it's needed, no problem. It more that most fingerstyle players play softly and timidly, it's not the instrument or strings. Think of Martin Carthy for real strong fingerstyle backing, he does use heavier guage though, I find it easier on lights. You can also just sub the Low E string (or D if Dropped D) with a heavier one for a good effect. If you want to be what is these days called a "hard driving strummer"... then I'd agree with you. Session players don't always like them though especially if it overrides the melody players. Sometimes more often people will like that in a gig/group setting. Personally if I had to play like that I'd be totally lost! That too, it's not as easy as some think. It's a major workout. FIngerstye to me is more relaxing even with so much more noting going on.
The most eye opening thing ever was, and this can apply to both finger and flat picking... to stop listening to most guitar players and start studying piano players. Said it many times before, but surely you have not read this so will bore the others with repitition, but the best of them, they rarely rest on a chord long, they step up into or out of it, they lapse into partial melody or counter melody. And just about all of them, and the same for good backers on anything, could play melody too, but they really enjoy backing as well. It applies easily to guitar, what they do.
The biggest mistake many make, is to want it all at once. There is no magic formula, each tune has its differences you need to listen for. Immerse yourself in the music, play along to it at home, and go out when ready. Even a good teacher cannot give you the key to it all at once, but a little at a time. And it ought to be fun and satisfying, and with the proper motivation, which is the love for the music, it should be fun and the discovery process should never end for you, guitar is complex and there is always something new to be found on it, every single time you play. After 46 years on it, new ways of doing things still appear, it's very satisfying, and if I had to choose melody playing over accompaniment, I'd go for accompaniment, it's more fun and spontaneous to me, especially when doing a hybrid melody/backing style. So that's another reason to learn melody on something and apply it in part to your accomaniment, it's a great joy to fully explore this instrument in depth eventually. Go slowly though, start with a session recording. The players will respect you for wanting to get it right like that and not just barge in not knowing exactly what to do. They'll be more tolerant when you goof up too...and we all goof up, melody players too.
Good luck with it!
Everybody has got their own little bits of advise, and it's up to you to wade through it all and decide what resonates with you. But Llig's advice, while being simple, is really the root of it all. Learn the tunes.
If you're wanting to accompany the music on guitar, you will best be able to do that with taste and nuance if you know the tune you're accompanying as well as the people playing it do.
My original teacher of Irish music (on guitar) had me learn to play the melody of a couple of tunes, so that I could learn to accompany them. He made it a journey of discovery, instead of just saying "play this chord here, and play that chord there...", and stressed to me early on that there is no "one single right way" to accompany any tune. So he had me experimenting with playing different chords in different places. He always had me stick with a chord choice, even if it was "wrong" for a bit, so that I could learn to "feel" what was right or wrong about it, and I could learn to feel the "flavor" that a particular chord choice might be adding to the music at any given time. This is all prior to getting in to talking about picking patterns, counter-melody, etc.
However, in just learning to play the melody of a couple of tunes on guitar, that led me to realize that what I really wanted was to play the tunes, not so much accompany them. And that led me down the slippery slope to bouzouki, and ultimately banjo. So be forewarned!
There are a number of videos and books out there for learning to accompany traditional Irish dance music. Though I haven't used them, I'd guess that John Doyle's would be good. Listen to as much ITM as possible. If you want to try your hand at playing the tunes with a pick, you'll find some samples and info about my books at http://www.danmozell.com. This music is also played fingerstyle, but this is sort of a genre unto itself, not usually connected to the session environment. You'll find a bunch of fingerstyle players at forums.celticguitartalk.com.
Some players to listen to:
John Doyle
Donal Clancy
Arty McGlynn
John McGann
Tony McManus (Scottish)
Dave MacIsaac (Cape Breton)
... what I really wanted was to play the tunes, not so much accompany them. And that led me down the slippery slope to bouzouki, and ultimately banjo...
I have a black Gibson (Epiphone, actually) that I modified. It now has five strings tuned eadgd, and I play melody on it with a pick. This after thirty years of playing finger style, which I have all but abandoned.
Patrick91, On this website, I would advise you to listen carefully to irisnevins when she gives guitar advice, it is always good, and always interesting.
And I am one of those guitar players who learned the whistle to help me learn the tunes. It is a simple little instrument, so I can learn tunes without having to think too much about the mechanics of the playing, and can really focus on the tunes.
Yes I realize the Gibson Dove is an unusual guitar in ITM, but I'm not an ITM player lol! I'm sure it will suffice. It'll probably sound better than most guitars designed FOR ITM (if there is such a thing?)
It's an awsome guitar that sounds good in any music. I would never use a different guitar. I love that guitar so much.
It's actually an Elvis Presley Dove.
And just to re-define my guitar playing. I am NOT a newbie. I realize there is a lot I can improve on but I think mmost guitarists would consider me "experienced." I just need to gain a better understanding of the fretboard and play better by ear.
I'm new to ITM, but not guitar playing.
I play a lil bit of the tin whistle. I played it a lot about a year ago but picked up the harmonica instead lol because you can actually play that with a guitar.
I'll try to master the tin whistle though. It's just kind of loud and I don't like attention while playing.
The tunes are complex melodies with simple harmonies. Obviously some of the guitar backers named on this thread defy that logic. So I'm not trying to put a cap on which chords you choose to play, or how many. Just suggesting where you might want to start.
i.e. the tune
Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
I''ve been playing guitar for a while. Mainly American "folk" music like Paul Simon, James Taylor, Bob Dylan. My parents are from Ireland so I always kind of overlooked Irish music. But the Pogues got me into it, and from there I started listening to more traditional music.
I want to learn like session-esque music.
I can't read music though.
Where do I start? BTW I play a Gibson Dove.
# Posted on March 22nd 2009 by Donagh17
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
Buy a tin whistle!
# Posted on March 22nd 2009 by mariaphilmurphy
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
I have a tin whistle...
I'm talking about on the guitar.
# Posted on March 22nd 2009 by Donagh17
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
Hello Patrick, someone will be along soon with good information I'm sure. Yeah, keep a D whistle handy & just listen to the different rhythms (dance rhythms) get the tunes in your head. There may well be a session near where you live. If so listen in there. In the mean time here is a session clip I really enjoy. Hope you do too;
Tigh Hughes Pub in Spiddal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YIrzeY9iwo
# Posted on March 22nd 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
I don't read music or ABC's very well. It's helpful to learn a little and it's not difficult.
Best advise is to listen listen listen listen listen listen and listen. Listen to the entire spectrum of Irish trad from the old stuff recorded in the 2O's to the people that revived the tradition in the 50's 60's and 70's to people playing now. Go to pubs and festivals. Check out some of the advice on this site about backing tunes. Eventually you may want to pick up a melody instrument like a tin whistle, mandolin or a banjo. Stay clear of concertinas. Only deranged people play them.
# Posted on March 22nd 2009 by shanty
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
Learn some tunes on the whistle and then transfer them to the guitar. The latest CD from Seamus Creagh RIP could be helpfull, he plays a bunch of tunes slowly especially for learners. Im sure there are plenty of book/CD combinations available for learners.
# Posted on March 22nd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
Yeah, listen and learn the tunes. It's not rocket science
# Posted on March 22nd 2009 by ...
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
llig leachim
I hope that made you feel better about yourself.
# Posted on March 22nd 2009 by Donagh17
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
Why should it make me feel better pointing out that it's not complicated? I don't understand your response.
# Posted on March 22nd 2009 by ...
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
It's baby lettuce science
# Posted on March 22nd 2009 by nicholas
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
You didn't answer my question.
I asked how to learn Irish music and where to start and you responded:
"Learn the tunes."
And of course you just had to add in the "rcoket science" part.
Would you care to explain how to "learn tunes" to a person who is not as musically talented as yourself?
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by Donagh17
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
Patrick91 -
You're in luck - AlBrown just posted this useful bit last week -
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/21008
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
Listen in great detail to good trad guitarists. I would say two absolutely must have albums if you want to play trad are 'In Play' by Liz Carroll and John Doyle and 'The Lonesome Touch' by Martin Hayes and Dennis Cahill. John Doyles DVD would serve you very well.
Llig is in fact completely right, the most frustrating thing for more experienced players is when folk wade in with a pile of chords without actually realizing that the tunes are not just a pile of notes. You MUST learn them, at least in your head otherwise you will almost always be weakening to some of the lead players.
Listen in great detail and enjoy yourself.
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by bogman
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
Patrick, I apologise if I sound condescending, that wasn't my intention, However, I clearly did answer you question.
You said that you want to learn "session-esque" music and where should you start. The answer is plain, learn the tunes.
And how to learn the tunes is not rocket science either. You just have to listen to them.
I'm sorry if you find this answer simplistic, but that's all there is to it.
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by ...
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
Admittedly, though, it does help--if you want to play "session-esque" music--to happen to play guitar....
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
Do I remember when I was new to it? I remember when I was new to the decision to wanting to lean:
A wall of such splendid melody. Stretching higher than I could see, further to the left and right as I could see, a seemingly impenetrable barrier of marvellous tune after tune after tune.
How do you get through that wall? Well, you start out by battering away at random at some bricks and you discover another layer beyond it. And you find yourself in a maze with tunes in front of you, to the side of you and behind you. You keep battering away at random until you eventually start to discriminate a path through the maze.
For a while, you think there is a place in the maze where you think it will be solved, and you strive for it. But enlightenment comes when you realise that not only is there no solution to what you perceive to be a problem, but that there was never any problem in the first place. And you simply begin to enjoy your lack of destination.
Is that the answer you were after?
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by ...
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
Actually there are similarities with rocket science.
The tunes have to have *lift* & once aloft you don't want it to come crashing down.
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by Ben Steen
*
not at all like brain surgery, though you do want to get the tunes in your head.
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
Yes that did answer my question, but in a philosophical sense lol.
But what I meant was like shoudl I start by learning like "tunes" where I pluck like a melody and a bas kind of thing or accompanying chords? What is used in Irish music? Because I've only ever been to one session and the guitar player looked like he was just playing chords up the fretboard.
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by Donagh17
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
If you want to play the tunes, the actual melodies, get a whistle or some other typical session instrument (flute, uilleann pipes, fiddle, tenor banjo, concertina, button accordion).
If you want to stay on guitar, you'll mostly be relegated to playing chords behind the tunes. Go look at Al Brown's member profile for more advice on that.
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
And even as a backer, you should get the tunes in your head.
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
You'd be playing, ideally, a mix of chords and melody. The question is how much of each, and that comes down to taste. There are many guitar players who think "ah this stuff is in D or G" and just stick to the home chords, but they rarely ever add anything to a session. The point is to add something, not just chug along.
You'll find a lot of guitar playing on newer trad recordings (from the 60's to present). Try to get a feel of what each of them are doing, and how it works for the tunes. Eventually you'll know what you like and what you don't, but at the start it will all sound marvelous. Making the connection between knowing the tunes (in your head, on the whistle, or on the guitar in melody form) and making the chords come out and add lift is just a matter of time.
Also, some people use standard tuning, others use DADGAD, others use drop D. Experiment with em all. Find what works.
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by Splendid Isolation
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
Down 'yer in deepest Kernow I have limited experience of good backers, but I can tell you without reservation that all the best ones I've come across can also play melodies on another instrument. Guitars and bodhrans and other "backing" are optional extras in Irish music and more often than not they detract from it rather than add to it, and that is often because the perpetrators are arrogant enough to think they can do it without actually knowing the tunes inside out("Oh, all the tunes have repeating patterns - hear a few and you've heard 'em all") . So get yourself a mandolin or something and learn some tunes on it. Play that in a session with other people doing the backing and you'll soon come to appreciate what melody-players are up against. If you decide you still want to do the backing after that, you and your fellow sessioneers will at least have the benefit of your new insights.
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
Patrick,
Learn some melodies to some tunes first. Get recordings or go to sessions and listen. Ask someone you know at a session what the tune titles are. Also, there are a lot of sessions online that keep track of the tunes they play, you can find them by poking around the internet.
If you go to the Members section of The Session and click on Tunebook, it will display the number of times each tune here has been added to someone's tunebook. That will give you an idea of some tunes to learn. If you click on a tune and go to the Downloads tab, you can click on the midi file to listen to the tune. You can download the midi file if you right click the midi.
Be warned that the midi files are generated from ABC and don't really sound like the tune is played, but it does give you a pretty good idea of how it sounds.
While traditional Irish musicians don't seem to feel that guitars add much to the music, I disagree. Of course, I am a guitar player! But...if you learn to play the melody, you will be able to figure out the chords, and through time, learn strumming patterns that add to the music as well as chord variations that will do the same.
I play by ear, and can figure out appropriate chords for most tunes within a minute or two, but the tunes that I can play the melody for, I remember quite well and can play them much better. The most critical skill to acquire is listening. Listen, listen, listen. Learning the read music is not at all critical to becoming a good session player. In fact, it will retard your progress. When you are reading music, you are not listening.
If you want more advice, click on my name and email me. Happy to help!
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by Celtic Guitar
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
<<While traditional Irish musicians don't seem to feel that guitars add much to the music,>>
That is a huge and inaccurate generalisation, though understandable thinking of some peoples attitudes here. A typical gigging duo comprises guitar and melody instrument. For example Jackie Daly has recently teemed up with a guitarist and is gigging as a duo. Liz Carrol plays with who? A guitarist.
. The guitar is highly valued in many traditional circles and sessions. What is universally disliked is guitarists who cant play trad joining in and and playing the wrong chords in the wrong place.
To be honest when I read the OP query it never occurred to me he was enquiring about backing, I supposed he wished to play the tunes.
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
At my session people often come up to us asking about
how to get started. Almost always, they're thinking of buying
a bodhran or they want to jam along on the guitar. Nobody wants
to actually learn tunes. Too hard I guess.
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by Hup
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
Random notes - thanks for the link, that was fantastic! I liked the left-handed flute player setting the flute aside to take a swig from his pint about halfway through...Does anyone know the names of the tunes? I've heard them around here, but nobody ever seems to remember names - part of "The Tradition", I guess.
Llig - thank you for that beautiful, poetic description of this fascinating puzzle that we've all been drawn into.
Patrick - I'm simply echoing what's already been said; if you want to play melody, get yourself a proper instrument - the whistle's a good start, IMHO. If you want to be a guitar backer, you still need to know the tunes, at least enough to hum them. And don't muck up the rhythm, whatever you do. It's not easy, but for me it's been immensely rewarding and great fun. Email me, too, if you need help.
Enjoy the ride.
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by tomw
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
Hi Patrick. I'm not going to try to tell you how to play the thing, but here are a few general things to remember:
1. You'll find a lot of rubbish written on these pages about the guitar in ITM, usually by people who have no clue about the instrument. No-one here has the right to tell you what instruments are valid in any genre of traditional music. This particularly applies to 'session' music, which is largely a modern invention anyway. Look into the origins of other 'traditional' instruments in ITM and you'll find that most are foreign imports. Italian violin anyone?
2. There seems to be an acceptance in folk music that quality of sound, and an ability to actually play an instrument well, are not as important as 'immersion' in 'the music'. This notion seems to be prevalent amongst some of our scraping, parping and tooting friends on this site, and tends to give ITM a bad name outside the people who play. Please learn how to play your instrument properly. There are many important things to consider with the guitar (left and right hand positions, tone quality, attack etc.), which are equally important regardless of the type of music you play. By the way, I've seen many more sessions ruined by poor fiddlers and whistle payers than guitarists. Too many ITM musicians are not concerned with musical quality. They just want to be seen as 'tradtional' players. This concept is impossible to define. Tradition is a living and evolving entity. It's not acceptable to arrive at a point in history and decide that it should go no further. Most of the instruments commonly used in ITM are in a state of flux and technical development. These developments bring new possibilities to the music, and are important features of the evolving tradition. The development of the Irish pipes in the last hundred years or so is a good example.
3. I don't know much about rocket science, but I do know that the guitar is an incredibly difficult instrument to play well. It's also a very versatile instrument, and over time you will find that you can play melody, chords and other accompaniment styles that lift the music and greatly extend its dynamic range. Mix O'lydian has a great website you may find helpful: http://www.intermix.freeuk.com/
4. ITM is certainly not an easy route into guitar playing. It is a complex and often ambiguous genre of music. This is where some people start to dislike the guitar in ITM, because there is a general feeling that guitarists just turn up at sessions and bang away at inappropriate chords/rhythms. There's a lot more to learn than just three or four chords in each key.
5. As for any kind of music or instrument, listening to others is essential. As a guitarist though, I find it most helpful to not listen to too much guitar music. It's much more interesting, and challenging, to listen to other instruments, and to try to translate what they are doing on to the guitar. This will also help you to develop your own style.
6. Playing by ear is a great skill, but not the only one you need to become a good musician. As a beginner(ish) guitarist, you will find this very frustrating when you try to play ITM. Learning to read music and/or tab will do wonders for your repertoire and understanding of your instrument. Contrary to what you may read on these pages, learning tunes with sheet music is not a sin, although of course it's important to listen as well. You are musician. That's what musicians do. They listen.
7. Learning the melodies, or at least understanding the melodies, is very important. This will help you to understand the subtelties and beauty of this music, and enable you to provide a richer and more meaningful accompaniment.
8. You'll find that most real life session members are far more accommodating and friendly than the arrogant, pompous, often anonymous and vaguely ridiculous old duffers who lurk around this forum. I've laughed out loud when I've actually heard some of their recordings on the internet after reading their pontifications here. Don't get me wrong though: there are plenty of great musicians here as well!
9. Be prepared for a long haul when it comes to playing the guitar in ITM. There is an often an expectation that guitarists should 'know their place' in this music and sit in the corner as quietly as possible while the big boys, butchers and carpenters saw up the tunes. Ignore all this, but remember to not overpower the music. While the guitar can add a lot to this music, it is also equally capable of subtracting the same amount.
10. Becoming a good musician is a lifetime commitment. Never rest on your laurels and kid yourself that you have 'arrived'. Try to learn something new every time you pick up your instrument, and be your own greatest critic.
11. Don't believe everything you read/see on the internet! You may find it helpful to have a few real lessons from a decent teacher who can show you how to avoid bad habits, which can lead to problems later on, including serious physical injury.
Good luck with the guitar. I hope you find it a beautiful and deeply satisfying instrument to play. The guitar bashing that goes on around here is usually unhelpful, untrue and detrimental to the possibilities of the instrument. Best wishes from Joel.
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by McDermott
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
Glad you like them. They are named in the YouTube comments. 1st 2 are mentioned in this thread;
Name that Polka?
June 5th 2007 by flossie
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/14004
"Farewell to Whiskey/The Dark Girl Dressed in Blue"
3rd tune ~
"The Killavil Postman"
barndance
June 6th 2007 by ceolachan
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/7317
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
"Look into the origins of other 'traditional' instruments in ITM and you'll find that most are foreign imports. Italian violin anyone?"
This is interesting to me a woman appeared at our local session with a tambourine. She seemed clueless about the music and when I mentioned to her that it was not part of trad irish music she argued that it is an ancient instrument and is indeed part of the tradition and she asked if I was familiar with a book written by one of the Chieftains. I responded that, anyway, it was not a part of our session and that none of the regulars want to hear a tambourine. This was not well received by her, but it's the truth.
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by leoj
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
Leoj I think that woman came to our session once. Ouch!
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by McDermott
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
You might also want to look at a site called Celtic Guitar Talk, particularly this thread: http://www.celticguitartalk.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2669
A lot of people there are using open tunings and fingerstyle arrangements, very satisfying to play on your own but it doesn't translate as well to session playing. There's certainly lots of approaches suggested there though.
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by Rob
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
Joel, she must really get around because I live in California. Maybe there is a gang of them dedicated to imposing themselves on unwary sessioners. Others at my session agree with me but did not speak up. I had to say something...
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by leoj
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
I gather that in rocket science it has happened that figures calculated in one system (e.g., metric) have been assumed by another team to be in another system (e.g., Imperial). I don't know if this has ever led on to disaster.
But many sessions exhibit this kind of rocket science in action, as some opt tp play at XXX miles an hour, and some at XXX kilometres an hour...
llig's description of battering away at the tune wall reminded me of the urban battles in "Saving Private Ryan".
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by nicholas
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
But, to get back to the original question............
..... ( oh, and nobody mentioned Paul Brady as a model of guitar-player to listen to, when he has his traditional head on ).........
......some recent pertinent discusions here on this forum on this matter anyway, but, yes, it's originally a melodic tradition, even solo, so the session style is only, like, 50 years old, with guitar and bodhran and bouzouki and tenor banjo as recent additions.
Despite your protestations, and he IS a curmudgen, but llig is right about needing to learn the tunes. I've been hanging around with people playing ITM for 40 years now, and still someone can come up with a new tune and I haven't a CLUE how to back it ( mainly nowadays on bouzouki, but that's because I prefer the option of playing the melody wherever possible, and the guitar doesn't cut through as well ). If you don't know the tune, and especially as a newbie, how can you have a chance of accompanying it ? You need to be able to recognize rhythm, key, and chord progression in probably no more than 3 times through the tune - takes a long while to get to be that good.
Get your whistle up to speed, learn the most popular tunes on this forum, take up the mandolin,or octave mando, or bouzouki, for the tunes. Leave your guitar at home, two at a session is one more than needed anyway. Record your local session ( with permission ) and try to play along with it at home. Get the local session guitarist to give you some tips, perhaps working with one melody musician. Go out and just listen to a few more sessions. Be aware this can become a dangerous obsession.
And never heard of an ITM guitarist with a Gibson Dove - not a bad guitar but unusual in ITM.
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
It also occurs to me that, if so far you have been playing singer-songwriter sort of finger-style guitar, then your instrument, if you choose to remain with that, may well be too lightly strung for effective use in the noise and chaos of a session. You might need to both go for the next heaviest string gauge and also raise the action slightly, to avoid string buzzing.
But you probably have a lot of work to do before that is an issue.
PS You can't read music YET. I would recommend the effort of learning it, both the standard script and ABC; it's all grist to the mill, to be able to learn the tunes every possible way, the ear method too.
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
ear first Pete, always ear first
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by ...
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
Go to your local session, sit back and record it. This way you can sit at home and even slow the recording down, and practice until you make sense of it. Above all, don't go into a session, not knowing what you are doing and hunt and peck for the right keys and chords. Also be aware most melody players will not be telling you what key they are playing or will be going into. Even if they do, they often get it wrong or leave out that part B is in a different key. There is a reason.... they think in tunes, not in keys. You need to start thinking like a melody player in order to accompany properly. Once you have that down, it's tricky because the tune has to be held in your mind while you play something else.
By practicing home alone, you will hopefully learn to discern the proper keys yourself, learn the timing, learn some of the tunes by memory, develop good relative pitch, which comes from memory and immersion. The suggestion to use a whistle was not a joke, it helps you understand the structures of the tunes. You will always be more welcome at a session if you play a melody instrument too, and it's fun to be able to do it anyway. It will always help your guitar backing, never hinder it.
Guitar, played in depth, is very complex and is not easy. Many think they can't cut it as a melody player so take up the guitar to be part of the session, and rotate a few chords in each key, hoping to get them right 50% of the time anyway. There are too many like that, and it's why people can cringe when a guitar case is seen coming through the door. Some will also try to toss you, throw you...or just test you. The worst of them will run you off with intimidation, so don't set yourself up for that. It's not like folk music circles where everything is just dandy no matter what, and the Irish don't tend to hold back when they don't like something. So know your music or at least how to play on a few tunes pretty decently before you venture in, The music is held as very precious and taken very seriously, it's not like Folk-Jams where anything goes.
If you do it little by little, at home, and then start showing up and playing only on the ones you know, you will start to really enjoy it. You might find a teacher to give you some advice, or talk to another guitar player if you like their way of playing, for some ideas.
Guernsey Pete.... I have always remained with fingerstyle, and light guage strings, and can get pretty strong on the attack and volume when it's needed, no problem. It more that most fingerstyle players play softly and timidly, it's not the instrument or strings. Think of Martin Carthy for real strong fingerstyle backing, he does use heavier guage though, I find it easier on lights. You can also just sub the Low E string (or D if Dropped D) with a heavier one for a good effect. If you want to be what is these days called a "hard driving strummer"... then I'd agree with you. Session players don't always like them though especially if it overrides the melody players. Sometimes more often people will like that in a gig/group setting. Personally if I had to play like that I'd be totally lost! That too, it's not as easy as some think. It's a major workout. FIngerstye to me is more relaxing even with so much more noting going on.
The most eye opening thing ever was, and this can apply to both finger and flat picking... to stop listening to most guitar players and start studying piano players. Said it many times before, but surely you have not read this so will bore the others with repitition, but the best of them, they rarely rest on a chord long, they step up into or out of it, they lapse into partial melody or counter melody. And just about all of them, and the same for good backers on anything, could play melody too, but they really enjoy backing as well. It applies easily to guitar, what they do.
The biggest mistake many make, is to want it all at once. There is no magic formula, each tune has its differences you need to listen for. Immerse yourself in the music, play along to it at home, and go out when ready. Even a good teacher cannot give you the key to it all at once, but a little at a time. And it ought to be fun and satisfying, and with the proper motivation, which is the love for the music, it should be fun and the discovery process should never end for you, guitar is complex and there is always something new to be found on it, every single time you play. After 46 years on it, new ways of doing things still appear, it's very satisfying, and if I had to choose melody playing over accompaniment, I'd go for accompaniment, it's more fun and spontaneous to me, especially when doing a hybrid melody/backing style. So that's another reason to learn melody on something and apply it in part to your accomaniment, it's a great joy to fully explore this instrument in depth eventually. Go slowly though, start with a session recording. The players will respect you for wanting to get it right like that and not just barge in not knowing exactly what to do. They'll be more tolerant when you goof up too...and we all goof up, melody players too.
Good luck with it!
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by irisnevins
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
Everybody has got their own little bits of advise, and it's up to you to wade through it all and decide what resonates with you. But Llig's advice, while being simple, is really the root of it all. Learn the tunes.
If you're wanting to accompany the music on guitar, you will best be able to do that with taste and nuance if you know the tune you're accompanying as well as the people playing it do.
My original teacher of Irish music (on guitar) had me learn to play the melody of a couple of tunes, so that I could learn to accompany them. He made it a journey of discovery, instead of just saying "play this chord here, and play that chord there...", and stressed to me early on that there is no "one single right way" to accompany any tune. So he had me experimenting with playing different chords in different places. He always had me stick with a chord choice, even if it was "wrong" for a bit, so that I could learn to "feel" what was right or wrong about it, and I could learn to feel the "flavor" that a particular chord choice might be adding to the music at any given time. This is all prior to getting in to talking about picking patterns, counter-melody, etc.
However, in just learning to play the melody of a couple of tunes on guitar, that led me to realize that what I really wanted was to play the tunes, not so much accompany them. And that led me down the slippery slope to bouzouki, and ultimately banjo. So be forewarned!
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by Reverend
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
There are a number of videos and books out there for learning to accompany traditional Irish dance music. Though I haven't used them, I'd guess that John Doyle's would be good. Listen to as much ITM as possible. If you want to try your hand at playing the tunes with a pick, you'll find some samples and info about my books at http://www.danmozell.com. This music is also played fingerstyle, but this is sort of a genre unto itself, not usually connected to the session environment. You'll find a bunch of fingerstyle players at forums.celticguitartalk.com.
Some players to listen to:
John Doyle
Donal Clancy
Arty McGlynn
John McGann
Tony McManus (Scottish)
Dave MacIsaac (Cape Breton)
Have fun!
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by Dan Mozell
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
... what I really wanted was to play the tunes, not so much accompany them. And that led me down the slippery slope to bouzouki, and ultimately banjo...
I have a black Gibson (Epiphone, actually) that I modified. It now has five strings tuned eadgd, and I play melody on it with a pick. This after thirty years of playing finger style, which I have all but abandoned.
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by gam
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
Patrick91, On this website, I would advise you to listen carefully to irisnevins when she gives guitar advice, it is always good, and always interesting.
And I am one of those guitar players who learned the whistle to help me learn the tunes. It is a simple little instrument, so I can learn tunes without having to think too much about the mechanics of the playing, and can really focus on the tunes.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
Yes, and irisnevins will be telling us all about the harp soon, no doubt. Your harp sounds beautiful, Iris!
And now back to our regular thread...
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by kennedy
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
"The harp that once, on Iris' walls......
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
Yes I realize the Gibson Dove is an unusual guitar in ITM, but I'm not an ITM player lol! I'm sure it will suffice. It'll probably sound better than most guitars designed FOR ITM (if there is such a thing?)
It's an awsome guitar that sounds good in any music. I would never use a different guitar. I love that guitar so much.
It's actually an Elvis Presley Dove.
And just to re-define my guitar playing. I am NOT a newbie. I realize there is a lot I can improve on but I think mmost guitarists would consider me "experienced." I just need to gain a better understanding of the fretboard and play better by ear.
I'm new to ITM, but not guitar playing.
I play a lil bit of the tin whistle. I played it a lot about a year ago but picked up the harmonica instead lol because you can actually play that with a guitar.
I'll try to master the tin whistle though. It's just kind of loud and I don't like attention while playing.
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by Donagh17
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
What I meant by attention is if you go into a session obviously the melodic tin whistle will stick out more than the rhythmic guitar, no?
So wouldn't it be better to go into my first session so I don't make a "complete" fool of myself?
I'm starting to practice the tin whistle as we speak though.
you guys don't know how much you've helped me understnd ITM just in the last 2 days. Thanks guys.
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by Donagh17
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
The tunes are complex melodies with simple harmonies. Obviously some of the guitar backers named on this thread defy that logic. So I'm not trying to put a cap on which chords you choose to play, or how many. Just suggesting where you might want to start.
i.e. the tune
# Posted on March 25th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Where do I start (Traditional IRish)
'What I meant by attention is if you go into a session obviously the melodic tin whistle will stick out more than the rhythmic guitar, no?'
Depends where you put it . . .
# Posted on March 26th 2009 by McDermott