The most recent discussion of guitar chords for ITM tunes quickly wandered, as so many do, into a thicket of musical theory jargon. This happens because that jargon is, for those who understand it, a simple and efficient means of describing what's happening in tunes. Unfortunately, as one participant said, it gives the uninitiated a headache, and tends to lock them out of these discussions, which is unfortunate.
Fortunately, it's not difficult to learn the basics of this language, although it does take a bit of application to learn to speak and understand it. If anyone in this community is feeling like they want to get a simple understanding of musical theory - basically, scales, chords, and modes and the language used to describe them - drop me a note through the site and I'd be happy to give you a quick tutorial. This should give you enough understanding to follow language like "It's often acceptable to use a C chord in an E dorian tune, since they often omit or understate the sixth" and to think, on reading that, "...but you have to be careful, because if you use the C in the wrong place it'll clash something horrible..." In other words, enough to get a) a few ideas and b) into trouble.
Drop a line if interested...
... I've set up a small website which has information on modal scales (as used in Irish and other related traditional music), with some selected modal tunes (JPEG scores with suggested guitar chords) and midi files. The site also carries a list of links to traditional tune and lyric collections:
~ another source provided by a member here... There are a few others. Sometimes approaching it from different angles, including seeking help from the willing, in this case Jon, increases your chances of it clicking and sticking... Best of luck to all who wander this way...
Michael - I don't expect that what I have to offer will substitute for either theory or practice. It's essentially the language in which theory is discussed. This encapsulates certain aspects of Western theory, ie, major and minor scales and chords as fundamental entities, modes as primary derivations from those, etc, but it doesn't get into what I think of as music theory proper, voice leading and so forth. That's stuff that I'm not qualified to teach, and that doesn't really help a lot in trad music anyway, since trad tends to thumb its nose at such things. What the basic vocabulary does is to enable you to talk about your practice with others, when you can't just pick up the fiddle and show them what you mean.
That being said, clearly the ability to make music in fact beats the hell out of the ability to talk about what music you'd make in theory. If you had to choose only one, the choice would be clear. Fortunately, we don't have to choose, we can make use of both.
The teacher in me commends Jon for the effort. For many, the understanding of what is going on will make for better playing. Also, for many, it won't really matter.
'The Essential Tin Whistle Toolbox'
ANALYTICAL LEARNING AND IMMERSION LEARNING
" . . . You certainly do not need to use this or any book in order to learn to play Irish tin whistle. This tradition has thrived
and evolved for centuries with very little help from books. In Ireland, and in Irish communities outside Ireland, many
musicians learn their music largely through immersion, the way that we all master our native languages. Most musicians
who learn this way are not very self-examining about how they do what they do.
Analytical resources like this book can and should never supplant aural learning, but they can supplement . . . "
I do know that when I began sitting in and playing piano at a local blues jam in 1990, all of my lessons in college music theory courses were a lot of help in understanding what was going on and what the other musicians were talking about when it came to playing the music.
The thing that needs to be stressed to the poor innocent guitar-owners who turn up at sessions to "join in", is not that guitar-backing is in itself wrong, but that in virtually any music-making the rhythm section needs to be rock solid, hard-nosed, deeply- experienced and totally immersed in the genre. I don't think musical theory is going to be of much help early on to a newby three-chord strummer. What they need to do is find a melody player at a similar level and practise for a couple of years (and also learn to flat-pick tunes). If you're a newby DADGAD player though, there's no hope - give up now!
They are posting--must have been something I neglected.
I stand with Mr. Kiparsky, who is simply trying to produce a better class of fretted instrument player. A good "backer" if you will. It is a truly daunting task for the newbie to learn the various Celtic musical dialects, replete with period modalities and in many cases, thoroughly composed harmonies. Would not a basic understanding of theory then shed more light on their groping ? Working from a general premise toward more particular and pertinent twist (see Aristotle).
We Yanks like our fretted friends to be competent, creative, and, a bit punchy when required. Playing with surety and verve takes musical competence and Jon's method will get you there faster. Take what he's offering folks--it's good stuff.
It seems that Llig, like a Southern Baptist, believes (contends) that immersion alone suffices for the salvation of the fretted instrument players. Now, I must allow that for your sessions in Edinburgh-- (having recently read of your groups intolerance of spoiling players--& I'm WITH you on that !)--you prefer clean melody line only--- If only I could be there and bring my little friend, Jacob Raymann--he would be very at home in the Lowlands, where John Lauter of Arbroath performed his surgeries in 1882.)------I digress----back to the point !
We redneck Yanks, as well as many other global cultures, prefer our fretted friends to be astute, creative, and a bit "punchy" at times. This is what livens OUR spirits. In order to play with assurance, verve and flexibility, that player must know their fretboard. The "Theory", kindly offered by Mr. Kiparsky is the ticket to that. Not to mention the fact that the more meritorious pieces from the Celts' vast repertoire are replete with period modalities and in many cases---"studied" and smartly composed harmonies. This music must be terribly daunting to the "nubiles" for whom learning Smash the Windows and Shoe the Donkey ensures that their pub crawling this summer will be a resounding success.
In conclusion, I stand with Jon in his effort to cultivate a better class of fretted players by urging them to gain even a basic understanding of music theory.
Mr. Hauke - thanks for the kind words. I'd only demur from speaking of "a better class of players"... sounds a little presumptuous of me when you put it that way... I'm just trying to share something that I've found both useful and fun with those who think they can use or enjoy it. I got it for free, and I'm happy to pass it on the same way.
Basic Musical Theory - an offer
Basic Musical Theory - an offer
The most recent discussion of guitar chords for ITM tunes quickly wandered, as so many do, into a thicket of musical theory jargon. This happens because that jargon is, for those who understand it, a simple and efficient means of describing what's happening in tunes. Unfortunately, as one participant said, it gives the uninitiated a headache, and tends to lock them out of these discussions, which is unfortunate.
Fortunately, it's not difficult to learn the basics of this language, although it does take a bit of application to learn to speak and understand it. If anyone in this community is feeling like they want to get a simple understanding of musical theory - basically, scales, chords, and modes and the language used to describe them - drop me a note through the site and I'd be happy to give you a quick tutorial. This should give you enough understanding to follow language like "It's often acceptable to use a C chord in an E dorian tune, since they often omit or understate the sixth" and to think, on reading that, "...but you have to be careful, because if you use the C in the wrong place it'll clash something horrible..." In other words, enough to get a) a few ideas and b) into trouble.
Drop a line if interested...
# Posted on March 21st 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Basic Musical Theory - an offer
No offence jon, but what's more important, theory or practice?
# Posted on March 21st 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Basic Musical Theory - an offer
Member: Mix O'Lydian
http://www.thesession.org/members/display/48348
... I've set up a small website which has information on modal scales (as used in Irish and other related traditional music), with some selected modal tunes (JPEG scores with suggested guitar chords) and midi files. The site also carries a list of links to traditional tune and lyric collections:
http://www.intermix.freeuk.com
~ another source provided by a member here... There are a few others. Sometimes approaching it from different angles, including seeking help from the willing, in this case Jon, increases your chances of it clicking and sticking... Best of luck to all who wander this way...
# Posted on March 21st 2009 by ceolachan
Llig ~ practice makes ~ well ~ not always perfect...
# Posted on March 21st 2009 by ceolachan
Ears 'n beers, and miles and miles of tunes before I sleep...
# Posted on March 21st 2009 by ceolachan
Re: Basic Musical Theory - an offer
"but what's more important, theory or practice?"
Didn't think you believed in practice either, Llig? I thought just playin the tunes was enough.
# Posted on March 21st 2009 by Back for a while
Re: Basic Musical Theory - an offer
Michael - I don't expect that what I have to offer will substitute for either theory or practice. It's essentially the language in which theory is discussed. This encapsulates certain aspects of Western theory, ie, major and minor scales and chords as fundamental entities, modes as primary derivations from those, etc, but it doesn't get into what I think of as music theory proper, voice leading and so forth. That's stuff that I'm not qualified to teach, and that doesn't really help a lot in trad music anyway, since trad tends to thumb its nose at such things. What the basic vocabulary does is to enable you to talk about your practice with others, when you can't just pick up the fiddle and show them what you mean.
That being said, clearly the ability to make music in fact beats the hell out of the ability to talk about what music you'd make in theory. If you had to choose only one, the choice would be clear. Fortunately, we don't have to choose, we can make use of both.
# Posted on March 21st 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Basic Musical Theory - an offer
The teacher in me commends Jon for the effort. For many, the understanding of what is going on will make for better playing. Also, for many, it won't really matter.
# Posted on March 21st 2009 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Basic Musical Theory - an offer
ceolachan, Thanks for the pointer to Mix's web site. It is very cool.
Mix, Thanks for doing this. I just briefly visited and found the site helpful.
# Posted on March 21st 2009 by whistler gan ainm
Re: Basic Musical Theory - an offer
Jon you may wake the slumbering curs.
Chris Smith also has related essays;
Instructional materials (index)
http://coyotebanjo.com/music-group-28.html
Instruction: Modes and modal substitutions
(Chris Smith) 2005-09-26
http://coyotebanjo.com/music-38.html
Grey Larsen has written an excellent guide to articulation on flute & tin whistle. More relevant to theory is the following excerpt;
http://www.greylarsen.com/store/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=26
'The Essential Tin Whistle Toolbox'
ANALYTICAL LEARNING AND IMMERSION LEARNING
" . . . You certainly do not need to use this or any book in order to learn to play Irish tin whistle. This tradition has thrived
and evolved for centuries with very little help from books. In Ireland, and in Irish communities outside Ireland, many
musicians learn their music largely through immersion, the way that we all master our native languages. Most musicians
who learn this way are not very self-examining about how they do what they do.
Analytical resources like this book can and should never supplant aural learning, but they can supplement . . . "
# Posted on March 21st 2009 by Random_notes
Re: Basic Musical Theory - an offer
I do know that when I began sitting in and playing piano at a local blues jam in 1990, all of my lessons in college music theory courses were a lot of help in understanding what was going on and what the other musicians were talking about when it came to playing the music.
# Posted on March 22nd 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: Basic Musical Theory - an offer
Ceol - thanks for recommending my website ...
Whistler gan aimn - I'm glad that you found the site useful, even is it mostly aimed at guitar backers.
If you are just playing melody, you don't really need any of this theory - or indeed sheet music, abc code etc. for that matter.
As llig says, all you have to do is laern the b****y tunes!
# Posted on March 22nd 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Basic Musical Theory - an offer
The thing that needs to be stressed to the poor innocent guitar-owners who turn up at sessions to "join in", is not that guitar-backing is in itself wrong, but that in virtually any music-making the rhythm section needs to be rock solid, hard-nosed, deeply- experienced and totally immersed in the genre. I don't think musical theory is going to be of much help early on to a newby three-chord strummer. What they need to do is find a melody player at a similar level and practise for a couple of years (and also learn to flat-pick tunes). If you're a newby DADGAD player though, there's no hope - give up now!
# Posted on March 22nd 2009 by RichardB
Re: Basic Musical Theory - an offer
Or burn the guitar, buy a bouzouki and head into the clear bright light of proper trad accompaniment . . .
# Posted on March 22nd 2009 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: Basic Musical Theory - an offer
Well--so what's more important to YOU Llig ? Id really like to know. I'' take BOTH.
# Posted on March 22nd 2009 by hauke
Re: Basic Musical Theory - an offer
duh ... guess
# Posted on March 22nd 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Basic Musical Theory - an offer
Why are my comments not posting ?
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by hauke
Re: Basic Musical Theory - an offer
They are posting--must have been something I neglected.
I stand with Mr. Kiparsky, who is simply trying to produce a better class of fretted instrument player. A good "backer" if you will. It is a truly daunting task for the newbie to learn the various Celtic musical dialects, replete with period modalities and in many cases, thoroughly composed harmonies. Would not a basic understanding of theory then shed more light on their groping ? Working from a general premise toward more particular and pertinent twist (see Aristotle).
We Yanks like our fretted friends to be competent, creative, and, a bit punchy when required. Playing with surety and verve takes musical competence and Jon's method will get you there faster. Take what he's offering folks--it's good stuff.
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by hauke
Re: Basic Musical Theory - an offer
It seems that Llig, like a Southern Baptist, believes (contends) that immersion alone suffices for the salvation of the fretted instrument players. Now, I must allow that for your sessions in Edinburgh-- (having recently read of your groups intolerance of spoiling players--& I'm WITH you on that !)--you prefer clean melody line only--- If only I could be there and bring my little friend, Jacob Raymann--he would be very at home in the Lowlands, where John Lauter of Arbroath performed his surgeries in 1882.)------I digress----back to the point !
We redneck Yanks, as well as many other global cultures, prefer our fretted friends to be astute, creative, and a bit "punchy" at times. This is what livens OUR spirits. In order to play with assurance, verve and flexibility, that player must know their fretboard. The "Theory", kindly offered by Mr. Kiparsky is the ticket to that. Not to mention the fact that the more meritorious pieces from the Celts' vast repertoire are replete with period modalities and in many cases---"studied" and smartly composed harmonies. This music must be terribly daunting to the "nubiles" for whom learning Smash the Windows and Shoe the Donkey ensures that their pub crawling this summer will be a resounding success.
In conclusion, I stand with Jon in his effort to cultivate a better class of fretted players by urging them to gain even a basic understanding of music theory.
# Posted on March 23rd 2009 by hauke
Re: Basic Musical Theory - an offer
Mr. Hauke - thanks for the kind words. I'd only demur from speaking of "a better class of players"... sounds a little presumptuous of me when you put it that way... I'm just trying to share something that I've found both useful and fun with those who think they can use or enjoy it. I got it for free, and I'm happy to pass it on the same way.
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Basic Musical Theory - an offer
'Or burn the guitar, buy a bouzouki and head into the clear bright light of proper trad accompaniment . . .'
Never on a Sunday, and never on any other day, Mr Sugarfoot Jackadopolos . . .
# Posted on March 24th 2009 by Joel McDermott