Following the discussion on Jig of Slurs I couldn't help thinking that the tune is a victim of it's own success. There can't be many tunes that virtually everyone knows whether you're from Ireland Scotland or any other of our type of diddle based countries.
What other tunes have stepped on their own toes by being too good an earworm?
Sailors Hornpipe and Harvest home are the ones that really do my nut in.
The Maid Behind The Bar got a right going over in Ireland after it was featured in an ad for a lager. The ad featured a good looking barmaid called Sally O'Brien and all you could hear for ages from the punters was "will you play Sally O'Brien". Talk about getting sick of the mention of a tune. Wouldn't mind only the lager is crap as well
Although I have heard fantastic playing of Harvest Home.I think it's the playing of a tune rather than the tune is the issue at times.Stocktons Wing did a lovely job on The Maid Behind The Bar and I suppose when you are learning to play, every tune is a novelty and a delight. Because of the inherent difficulties in playing tunes in D on a concertina in the early days, I am glad to be making some shapes on the Maid Behind The Bar as an exercise piece. Likewise Harvest Home
There's so many but, at the risk of ridicule, I'll suggest that there's not much wrong with most of them as long as they don't make up the entire evening's proceedings.
Far worse than these old warhorses are those "newer tunes" which become really popular and get played to death too. I'd rather play the "Jig of Slurs" any day before some of these modern "hybrid" hits.
concertinaplayer, definitely agree that bad playing is the main cause of wearing a tune down, the thing is though, it's the initial quality of the tune that makes everyone want to play it - whether they can or not. Nothing better than hearing somebody surprise folk with a great rendition of an old warhorse.
On the Wandering Minstrel LP Seamus Ennis does a rendition of Boys of Bluehill that is hardly recognizable as such.. well, maybe it isn't quite so different, it's not radically different, but the setting is a nice change of pace from the dopey version you hear at most sessions..
"Victims of their own success" is a rather euphemistic description. The success of some of these tunes is often due to their simplicity, thus they are easily remembered. I'm not knocking that, it just the way it appears to me.
Yeah but some tunes are simpler than others. (That's if you assume that Irish Trad music IS actually successful.)
Maybe, for example, Tom Ward's Downfall or The Gooseberry Bush aren't so overplayed because they're a bit trickier for learners to get a handle on.
'The Blackbird' Not The Blackbird Set Dance nor indeed The Blackbird Hornpipe but the mickey mouse Blackbird as played by the Darling girl from Clare. Every squeaky accordion player I ever met had a bash at it and a 'Can you play that Sharon Shannon tune became the norm' Thank God the fad has now being overtaken by the Galway Girl, but the answer is still 'NO'
I still really enjoy belting out the Kesh... as well as listening to the Bothy Band's version of it on After Hours. I still love 'Merrily Kissed the Quaker's Wife'. I've heard some lovely versions of 'The Butterfly', and quite enjoy playing the 'Harvest Home'/'Boys of Bluehill' and adding my own variations. I wouldn't dare start the Ir*sh W**herw*m*n at a session, but I don't groan and roll my eyes when someone else does - I'm quite happy to play along.
It's almost certainly because I'm still fairly new at this whole 'diddley' thing and only started going to sessions about a month ago, so I have not yet been overexposed to the tunes
Ask again a year or two from now and I'll probably be the biggest diddley-snob on here...
It’s funny how these topics go full circle – have a look at “Too Familiar” from January 2003 (http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/1333/comments#comment21628). Interestingly the “Rakes of Mallow” gets a mention which is one of those tunes I’ve never heard played in a session but we all agree that it’s too hackneyed ; now there’s an anomaly!
Michael, I didn't know that the English have laid claim to the Irish Washerwoman. The Welsh tried to claim it under a similar sounding title of the Irish Waterman - see http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1312 for an enlightening discussion on this!
Every region has their own crosses to bear. In my neck of the woods it's Big John MacNeill, The Clumsy Lover and invariably The Mason's Apron, again and again and again... well, you get the drift.
The Jig Of Slurs may be popular because it's an up-front Highland Bagpipe tune that isn't in A, making it that bit easier for people whose range is (still) limited to D/G, and also has that key-shift.
Of course there are plenty of GHB tunes in D, but the key-shift may give the Jug of Slugs some extra appeal (I personally like the tune...). Not *that* many tunes do it.
This is pretty amusing. I am just getting around to learning the above mentioned tunes, because most of my tune list is pretty weird stuff that not a lot of people know.
So my project this year is to learn the warhorses.
Trumpet Hornpipe? Interesting- over here (Midwest US) it is a novelty number, rarely heard and probably amusing to most hearers. Of course, Captain Pugwash never wore it out for us, measaim!
Never tried cultivating awkward silences myself, batlady- ('rhubarb, rhubarb')... but isn't it a fact that, no sooner do you get a lovely, fresh, dew-kissed tune under your belt, than some bastard comes on here and declares a fatwa on it for being boring, knackered and hackneyed. I don't remember there being anything about this in the brochure.
The Sailor's Hornpipe got a bit exposed way back - I think Mike Oldfield included it in a piece of his, and it is very similar to the Blue Peter (TV) tune.
In English music circles, a very good tune which can get somewhat overplayed is the Morris version of The Princess Royal. It's a common-denominator tune for people who haven't played together before, e.g. It has a third part which has a slow bit and is played twice, so it doesn't exactly go by in a flash if you're not into it.
For me it's not the tunes, but the sets. There are very few tunes that I can say I dislike hearing, and the more I learn the fewer there are. I'm finding that as I get to be a better player, I have a much higher tolerance for the "beginner tunes". I got to the point a while back where I enjoy the Kesh, and now I enjoy the Banshee - who knows where this will lead...
But the rote playing of the same three tunes at the same clip over and over again, week after week, that's what starts to get to me. Partly because there's no element of surprise, you know exactly what's coming, partly because there's no sense that anyone's thought about what they're playing, and the tunes themselves start to get stale, and partly because there's a certain sense that some tunes are reserved for the house sets - you can't play The Landlord's Lacy Underthings in that set, it goes in the set with Johnson's Patented Truss! - so it has all the worst elements of playing in a band, without the getting paid part.
But if you put an over-exposed tune in a new setting, it can still shine nicely.
Somebody above said they'd rather play Jig Of Slurs than any of the modern tunes- but Jig Of Slurs is a modern tune itself, composed by the famous GHB player and composer George S McLennan.
Well admittedly not all that modern- GS was born in 1883.
By the age of 9 he was winning medals at piping competitions and Queen Victoria invited the child prodigy to play for her at Balmoral Castle.
In any case it's not an ITM tune.
By the way, perhaps few in the ITM world are aware what the title refers to: in old GHB lingo a "slur" is what in ITM is called a "pat". The Jig Of Slurs progresses by note-pairs seperated by slurs/pats.
Matt Molloy's influential version smooths out all the note-pairs by grouping notes in threes using long rolls, thus the tune becomes The Jig Of No Slurs Anymore.
That doesn't mean it's necessarily Irish Patrick, there are lots of tunes in O'Neills that are almost certainly Scottish. There are very few definites in tunes that are more than a couple of hundred years old.
What makes anyone think a quintessential Irish Tune like The IW is not, in fact Irish at all? Seriously though, I cant Imagine it being English!!! What other English tunes fit in with that Genre?Personally I think that it being English is a ridiculous claim! but come on where is the evidence, be it only circumstantial? sounds like another Lligism to me!
Unless the player doesn't realize they're Scottish, then it's OK Luckily that's a rare attitude. To me Irish tunes played in a Scottish session are Scottish session tunes and visa versa.
It seems ridiculous to me to agonise over whether a tune is Irish or Scottish or English etc in origin. For generations people have been playing each others tunes, adapting them to their own style of playing.
There are loads of reels that started life in Scotland but are very much irish. Plenty of originally irish tunes get played in scotland.
I'm sure the same holds for tunes that originated in england or elsewhere.
"There are loads of reels that started life in Scotland but are very much Irish."
They are still Scottish in Scotland........
I take your point though. Many Irish tunes lose a lot of their "Irishness" when played by Scottish players especially in ceilidh bands, S & R societies and F & A circles etc.
It's hard to generalise because you also have "Irish sessions" in Scotland which may be entirely made up of Scottish musicians who are playing "the real thing".... for want of a better expression.
Moreover, many of the really good young players can play a variety of different styles with relative ease.
There are loads of names for many tunes, what's in a name? Not a lot. This particular tune has numerous names and variations. What other English tunes are there trad standards? just curious.
I should perhaps have said that the main session I attend is at heart one of those Irish in scaotand sessions that you mention. Though I don't think any of the regulars think of it as "the real thing" in contrast to scottish style playing. It is just a result of preference, experience and background.
There are a couple of regulars with a more scottish focus, and many of the visitors that pop in have a more scottish repertioire (which is fine). But we are basically, partly by default, and not for reasons of ethnic cleansing, an irish session in scotland.
I like to hear tunes I don't know whether they are irish or scottish. I want to spend some of the night listening. I don't always join in even when I know the tune, and not just because I'm fed up with a particular warhorse.
To be honsest there are certain tunes that I will regularly start that are not (or are no longer) great personal favourite, but I know that everyone (near enough) will be able to join in. I think of this, and indeed call it, "community singing". I generally do this if there has been a few sets in succession that only a minority of attendees have known, maybe near the start of the night, and almost certainly towards the end. Assuming of course that no-one else does it before me.
It wasn't, of course.
As I said, it was "for want of a better expression".
What I meant was a group of musicians playing mostly Irish tunes in an "Irish style" although there's obviously not necessarily a right or wrong way to do this... as opposed to a session featuring mostly Scottish tunes or, quite possibly, a mixture of everything which just happens to include a few Irish tunes in its repertoire.
I do realise there's all variety of possiblities though.
But I read it as how he interprets the thinking of irish style players in scotland i.e. looking down on scottish music.
I personally have a distinct preference for irish music in general over scottish music. But that is personal preference, I make no pretence at forming an objective judgement. And anyway scottish music (at least some styles) would be my second favourite musical form.
It isn't really an identity crisis thing, despite an attempt at a joke on another thread that appeared to misread by some I consider myself scottish. I want scotland to win when we're playing ireland at football or rugby (I'm not terribly upset when we get beaten though).
Like half of scotland I'm of (mostly) irish descent, and to be honest I see scottish and irish culture and heritage as blurring into each other rather being two separate entities.
But when it comes to music as a rule, I prefer the Irish approach. Scottish music appears to me to place moreemphasis on precision. It can sound very clean and virtuoso like, particularly in the playing of strathspeys. Whilst I admire this, it doesn't really hold me emotionally and it isn't how I want to play. I like music to sound, for want of a better word, dirtier, with less emphasis on precision and more on feeling.
Of course I'm exagerating, possibly even steriotyping, by way of making my point. I don't view this as a black and white distinction (remember that "blurring" above? and note the use of the words emphasis & appear, I don't want to start a war here) but rather a tendency that I hear in the music. Your ears may differ
My favourite scottish music is probably Shetland (if that can be considered entirely scottish). Whilst having a style distict from most irish music, I percieve a high degree of dirt in shetland music.
As an aside, after playing in isoaltion for some years I worked up the courgae to appraoch someone selling raffle tickets for some scottish music society as celtic connections. Their advise was: tenot banjo? You'd be better off contacting comhaltas, here is a phone number. I'd never heard of comhaltas. The guy was right though (at least as far as I was concerned) it worked out well for me, fitting both my musical taste and instrumental choice better. (Though as far as instrumnetal choice goes, if I could go back now I'd be a button box player primarily).
Well that's me rambled well OT in more than one direction
Victims of their own success
Victims of their own success
Following the discussion on Jig of Slurs I couldn't help thinking that the tune is a victim of it's own success. There can't be many tunes that virtually everyone knows whether you're from Ireland Scotland or any other of our type of diddle based countries.
What other tunes have stepped on their own toes by being too good an earworm?
Sailors Hornpipe and Harvest home are the ones that really do my nut in.
# Posted on March 17th 2009 by bogman
Re: Victims of their own success
The Maid Behind The Bar got a right going over in Ireland after it was featured in an ad for a lager. The ad featured a good looking barmaid called Sally O'Brien and all you could hear for ages from the punters was "will you play Sally O'Brien". Talk about getting sick of the mention of a tune. Wouldn't mind only the lager is crap as well
# Posted on March 17th 2009 by concertinaplayer
Re: Victims of their own success
Although I have heard fantastic playing of Harvest Home.I think it's the playing of a tune rather than the tune is the issue at times.Stocktons Wing did a lovely job on The Maid Behind The Bar and I suppose when you are learning to play, every tune is a novelty and a delight. Because of the inherent difficulties in playing tunes in D on a concertina in the early days, I am glad to be making some shapes on the Maid Behind The Bar as an exercise piece. Likewise Harvest Home
# Posted on March 17th 2009 by concertinaplayer
Re: Victims of their own success
Irish Washerwoman
# Posted on March 17th 2009 by Henk Bos
Re: Victims of their own success
The Irish Washerwoman is surely an English tune. Not to say though that it can't be played very well with an irish twist to it
# Posted on March 17th 2009 by ...
Re: Victims of their own success
The Trumpet Hornpipe ("Captain Pugwash"), very definitely.
# Posted on March 17th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Victims of their own success
The Sailors' Hornpipe also.
# Posted on March 17th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Victims of their own success
There's so many but, at the risk of ridicule, I'll suggest that there's not much wrong with most of them as long as they don't make up the entire evening's proceedings.
Far worse than these old warhorses are those "newer tunes" which become really popular and get played to death too. I'd rather play the "Jig of Slurs" any day before some of these modern "hybrid" hits.
# Posted on March 17th 2009 by Johnny Jay
Re: Victims of their own success
Jig of Slurs, Jon?
... Would that be with or without the "spare part" ...
# Posted on March 17th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Victims of their own success
concertinaplayer, definitely agree that bad playing is the main cause of wearing a tune down, the thing is though, it's the initial quality of the tune that makes everyone want to play it - whether they can or not. Nothing better than hearing somebody surprise folk with a great rendition of an old warhorse.
# Posted on March 17th 2009 by bogman
Re: Victims of their own success
On the Wandering Minstrel LP Seamus Ennis does a rendition of Boys of Bluehill that is hardly recognizable as such.. well, maybe it isn't quite so different, it's not radically different, but the setting is a nice change of pace from the dopey version you hear at most sessions..
# Posted on March 17th 2009 by gravelwalks
Re: Victims of their own success
"Victims of their own success" is a rather euphemistic description. The success of some of these tunes is often due to their simplicity, thus they are easily remembered. I'm not knocking that, it just the way it appears to me.
# Posted on March 17th 2009 by Rudall the time
Re: Victims of their own success
Is not the success of diddley music in general due to it's simplicity?
# Posted on March 17th 2009 by ...
Re: Victims of their own success
Yeah but some tunes are simpler than others. (That's if you assume that Irish Trad music IS actually successful.)
Maybe, for example, Tom Ward's Downfall or The Gooseberry Bush aren't so overplayed because they're a bit trickier for learners to get a handle on.
# Posted on March 17th 2009 by Rudall the time
Re: Victims of their own success
'The Blackbird' Not The Blackbird Set Dance nor indeed The Blackbird Hornpipe but the mickey mouse Blackbird as played by the Darling girl from Clare. Every squeaky accordion player I ever met had a bash at it and a 'Can you play that Sharon Shannon tune became the norm' Thank God the fad has now being overtaken by the Galway Girl, but the answer is still 'NO'
# Posted on March 17th 2009 by Free Reed
Re: Victims of their own success
You are right, you can't measure success anyway, you have to load it with too much criteria.
But speaking for myself, I play it 'cause it's easy.
# Posted on March 17th 2009 by ...
Re: Victims of their own success
the kesh jig
# Posted on March 17th 2009 by Glass of Beer
Re: Victims of their own success
The Butterfly
# Posted on March 17th 2009 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: Victims of their own success
Sally Gardens
# Posted on March 17th 2009 by snorre
Re: Victims of their own success
Sally gardens- seconded. KEsh Jig seconded
and don't forget Merrily Kiss the quakers wife.
# Posted on March 17th 2009 by zippydw
Re: Victims of their own success
I still really enjoy belting out the Kesh... as well as listening to the Bothy Band's version of it on After Hours. I still love 'Merrily Kissed the Quaker's Wife'. I've heard some lovely versions of 'The Butterfly', and quite enjoy playing the 'Harvest Home'/'Boys of Bluehill' and adding my own variations. I wouldn't dare start the Ir*sh W**herw*m*n at a session, but I don't groan and roll my eyes when someone else does - I'm quite happy to play along.
It's almost certainly because I'm still fairly new at this whole 'diddley' thing and only started going to sessions about a month ago, so I have not yet been overexposed to the tunes
Ask again a year or two from now and I'll probably be the biggest diddley-snob on here...
# Posted on March 17th 2009 by Pat Mustard
Re: Victims of their own success
It’s funny how these topics go full circle – have a look at “Too Familiar” from January 2003 (http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/1333/comments#comment21628). Interestingly the “Rakes of Mallow” gets a mention which is one of those tunes I’ve never heard played in a session but we all agree that it’s too hackneyed ; now there’s an anomaly!
Michael, I didn't know that the English have laid claim to the Irish Washerwoman. The Welsh tried to claim it under a similar sounding title of the Irish Waterman - see http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1312 for an enlightening discussion on this!
Just in case anyone gets confused by the disputed setting in G lydian have a look at Jeremy's posting at http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/92 for the correct version.
As for type-casting tunes it's all down to how they're played and, in my opinion, the Kesh is as good a jig as you'll get anywhere.
# Posted on March 17th 2009 by Bannerman
Re: Victims of their own success
Every region has their own crosses to bear. In my neck of the woods it's Big John MacNeill, The Clumsy Lover and invariably The Mason's Apron, again and again and again... well, you get the drift.
# Posted on March 17th 2009 by Patkiwi
Re: Victims of their own success
You could say it's every session.
# Posted on March 17th 2009 by Rudall the time
Victims of their own success
The very topic
# Posted on March 17th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Victims of their own success
The Jig Of Slurs may be popular because it's an up-front Highland Bagpipe tune that isn't in A, making it that bit easier for people whose range is (still) limited to D/G, and also has that key-shift.
Of course there are plenty of GHB tunes in D, but the key-shift may give the Jug of Slugs some extra appeal (I personally like the tune...). Not *that* many tunes do it.
# Posted on March 17th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Victims of their own success
Maid behind the bar, Sally Gardens, Wise Maid, Cooley's,
need I go on??
# Posted on March 17th 2009 by jlocky
Re: Victims of their own success
This is pretty amusing. I am just getting around to learning the above mentioned tunes, because most of my tune list is pretty weird stuff that not a lot of people know.
So my project this year is to learn the warhorses.
# Posted on March 17th 2009 by Michele Sims
Re: Victims of their own success
I'm with Batlady- still happy when an old warhorse comes trotting by at a nice gentle pace- they still look sprightly to me
# Posted on March 17th 2009 by Here Lyeth
Re: Victims of their own success
No, no, p-k, no trotting here!!! We're all going to w-a-l-k. And cultivate awkward silences between each tune .
# Posted on March 17th 2009 by Michele Sims
Re: Victims of their own success
Trumpet Hornpipe? Interesting- over here (Midwest US) it is a novelty number, rarely heard and probably amusing to most hearers. Of course, Captain Pugwash never wore it out for us, measaim!
Dan
# Posted on March 17th 2009 by curamach
Re: Victims of their own success
Never tried cultivating awkward silences myself, batlady- ('rhubarb, rhubarb')... but isn't it a fact that, no sooner do you get a lovely, fresh, dew-kissed tune under your belt, than some bastard comes on here and declares a fatwa on it for being boring, knackered and hackneyed. I don't remember there being anything about this in the brochure.
# Posted on March 18th 2009 by Here Lyeth
Re: Victims of their own success
The Sailor's Hornpipe got a bit exposed way back - I think Mike Oldfield included it in a piece of his, and it is very similar to the Blue Peter (TV) tune.
In English music circles, a very good tune which can get somewhat overplayed is the Morris version of The Princess Royal. It's a common-denominator tune for people who haven't played together before, e.g. It has a third part which has a slow bit and is played twice, so it doesn't exactly go by in a flash if you're not into it.
# Posted on March 18th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Victims of their own success
For me it's not the tunes, but the sets. There are very few tunes that I can say I dislike hearing, and the more I learn the fewer there are. I'm finding that as I get to be a better player, I have a much higher tolerance for the "beginner tunes". I got to the point a while back where I enjoy the Kesh, and now I enjoy the Banshee - who knows where this will lead...
But the rote playing of the same three tunes at the same clip over and over again, week after week, that's what starts to get to me. Partly because there's no element of surprise, you know exactly what's coming, partly because there's no sense that anyone's thought about what they're playing, and the tunes themselves start to get stale, and partly because there's a certain sense that some tunes are reserved for the house sets - you can't play The Landlord's Lacy Underthings in that set, it goes in the set with Johnson's Patented Truss! - so it has all the worst elements of playing in a band, without the getting paid part.
But if you put an over-exposed tune in a new setting, it can still shine nicely.
# Posted on March 18th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Victims of their own success
Somebody above said they'd rather play Jig Of Slurs than any of the modern tunes- but Jig Of Slurs is a modern tune itself, composed by the famous GHB player and composer George S McLennan.
Well admittedly not all that modern- GS was born in 1883.
By the age of 9 he was winning medals at piping competitions and Queen Victoria invited the child prodigy to play for her at Balmoral Castle.
In any case it's not an ITM tune.
By the way, perhaps few in the ITM world are aware what the title refers to: in old GHB lingo a "slur" is what in ITM is called a "pat". The Jig Of Slurs progresses by note-pairs seperated by slurs/pats.
Matt Molloy's influential version smooths out all the note-pairs by grouping notes in threes using long rolls, thus the tune becomes The Jig Of No Slurs Anymore.
# Posted on March 18th 2009 by Richard D Cook
Re: Victims of their own success
I lost count of the number of times we played the Galway Girl yesterday during the various Paddy's Day sessions.
# Posted on March 18th 2009 by SteelPlayer
Re: Victims of their own success
That doesn't mean it's necessarily Irish Patrick, there are lots of tunes in O'Neills that are almost certainly Scottish. There are very few definites in tunes that are more than a couple of hundred years old.
# Posted on March 18th 2009 by bogman
Re: Victims of their own success
What makes anyone think a quintessential Irish Tune like The IW is not, in fact Irish at all? Seriously though, I cant Imagine it being English!!! What other English tunes fit in with that Genre?Personally I think that it being English is a ridiculous claim! but come on where is the evidence, be it only circumstantial? sounds like another Lligism to me!
# Posted on March 18th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Victims of their own success
Re Jig of Slurs
"In any case it's not an ITM tune."
Sorry, I forgot that Scottish tunes weren't allowed.....
# Posted on March 19th 2009 by Johnny Jay
Re: Victims of their own success
Unless the player doesn't realize they're Scottish, then it's OK
Luckily that's a rare attitude. To me Irish tunes played in a Scottish session are Scottish session tunes and visa versa.
# Posted on March 19th 2009 by bogman
Re: Victims of their own success
The Irish Washerwoman is fairly widely quoted as an originally English tune
http://www.ibiblio.org/fiddlers/IP_IZ.htm#IRISH_WASHERWOMAN
Plenty of other "Irish" tunes started life elsewhere.
# Posted on March 19th 2009 by Ceratonia
Re: Victims of their own success
It seems ridiculous to me to agonise over whether a tune is Irish or Scottish or English etc in origin. For generations people have been playing each others tunes, adapting them to their own style of playing.
There are loads of reels that started life in Scotland but are very much irish. Plenty of originally irish tunes get played in scotland.
I'm sure the same holds for tunes that originated in england or elsewhere.
- chris
# Posted on March 19th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Victims of their own success
"There are loads of reels that started life in Scotland but are very much Irish."
They are still Scottish in Scotland........
I take your point though. Many Irish tunes lose a lot of their "Irishness" when played by Scottish players especially in ceilidh bands, S & R societies and F & A circles etc.
It's hard to generalise because you also have "Irish sessions" in Scotland which may be entirely made up of Scottish musicians who are playing "the real thing".... for want of a better expression.
Moreover, many of the really good young players can play a variety of different styles with relative ease.
# Posted on March 19th 2009 by Johnny Jay
Re: Victims of their own success
Who's agonising? I couldn't give a feck where a tune comes from.
# Posted on March 19th 2009 by ...
Re: Victims of their own success
But if it is an Irish tune, why would an Irish person call it The "Irish" washerwoman?
# Posted on March 19th 2009 by ...
Re: Victims of their own success
There are loads of names for many tunes, what's in a name? Not a lot. This particular tune has numerous names and variations. What other English tunes are there trad standards? just curious.
# Posted on March 19th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Victims of their own success
Yeah of course Jon Jay, tunes often have dual or even multiple nationality
They can change these at the drop of hat, or perhaps that should be a tone (G to A).
Style rather than geography will determine whether a particular tune is irish/scottish/wahtever on any given day
- chris
# Posted on March 19th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Victims of their own success
I should perhaps have said that the main session I attend is at heart one of those Irish in scaotand sessions that you mention. Though I don't think any of the regulars think of it as "the real thing" in contrast to scottish style playing. It is just a result of preference, experience and background.
There are a couple of regulars with a more scottish focus, and many of the visitors that pop in have a more scottish repertioire (which is fine). But we are basically, partly by default, and not for reasons of ethnic cleansing, an irish session in scotland.
I like to hear tunes I don't know whether they are irish or scottish. I want to spend some of the night listening. I don't always join in even when I know the tune, and not just because I'm fed up with a particular warhorse.
To be honsest there are certain tunes that I will regularly start that are not (or are no longer) great personal favourite, but I know that everyone (near enough) will be able to join in. I think of this, and indeed call it, "community singing". I generally do this if there has been a few sets in succession that only a minority of attendees have known, maybe near the start of the night, and almost certainly towards the end. Assuming of course that no-one else does it before me.
Cheers - chris
# Posted on March 19th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Victims of their own success
>I like to hear tunes I don't know whether they are irish or >scottish
i.e. regardless of origin.
I don't mean to imply that I enjoy puzzling over where a tune comes from
# Posted on March 19th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Victims of their own success
playing "the real thing" - Jon Jay? I'm sure that wasn't meant the way it came across.
# Posted on March 19th 2009 by bogman
Re: Victims of their own success
It wasn't, of course.
As I said, it was "for want of a better expression".
What I meant was a group of musicians playing mostly Irish tunes in an "Irish style" although there's obviously not necessarily a right or wrong way to do this... as opposed to a session featuring mostly Scottish tunes or, quite possibly, a mixture of everything which just happens to include a few Irish tunes in its repertoire.
I do realise there's all variety of possiblities though.
# Posted on March 19th 2009 by Johnny Jay
Re: Victims of their own success
I might have misread Jon Jays post too.
But I read it as how he interprets the thinking of irish style players in scotland i.e. looking down on scottish music.
I personally have a distinct preference for irish music in general over scottish music. But that is personal preference, I make no pretence at forming an objective judgement. And anyway scottish music (at least some styles) would be my second favourite musical form.
It isn't really an identity crisis thing, despite an attempt at a joke on another thread that appeared to misread by some I consider myself scottish. I want scotland to win when we're playing ireland at football or rugby (I'm not terribly upset when we get beaten though).
Like half of scotland I'm of (mostly) irish descent, and to be honest I see scottish and irish culture and heritage as blurring into each other rather being two separate entities.
But when it comes to music as a rule, I prefer the Irish approach. Scottish music appears to me to place moreemphasis on precision. It can sound very clean and virtuoso like, particularly in the playing of strathspeys. Whilst I admire this, it doesn't really hold me emotionally and it isn't how I want to play. I like music to sound, for want of a better word, dirtier, with less emphasis on precision and more on feeling.
Of course I'm exagerating, possibly even steriotyping, by way of making my point. I don't view this as a black and white distinction (remember that "blurring" above? and note the use of the words emphasis & appear, I don't want to start a war here) but rather a tendency that I hear in the music. Your ears may differ
My favourite scottish music is probably Shetland (if that can be considered entirely scottish). Whilst having a style distict from most irish music, I percieve a high degree of dirt in shetland music.
As an aside, after playing in isoaltion for some years I worked up the courgae to appraoch someone selling raffle tickets for some scottish music society as celtic connections. Their advise was: tenot banjo? You'd be better off contacting comhaltas, here is a phone number. I'd never heard of comhaltas. The guy was right though (at least as far as I was concerned) it worked out well for me, fitting both my musical taste and instrumental choice better. (Though as far as instrumnetal choice goes, if I could go back now I'd be a button box player primarily).
Well that's me rambled well OT in more than one direction
cheers- chris
# Posted on March 19th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Victims of their own success
Hi Jon Jay,
sorry cross posted with your last message
best - chris
# Posted on March 19th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork