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Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
OK, apologies for the title, and I know there are numerous discussions with regards to tonguing here already....
I'm currently getting to grips with the whistle, and my previous experience with a windblown instrument is the GHB, and as a result I'm finding that my natural inclination is to use a grace note rather than using my tongue for emphasis of a note, if needed.
Should I try and resist temptation and work on using the tongue, or not worry about it too much and carry on as I am?
My other concern is I dont want to be learning tunes, and have them coming out sounding too "chirpy".
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
I'd say stick with your temptation, personally. I prefer smooth ornamented playing to choppy chirpiness for most tunes. If you're worried about your playing sounding too flat, try working on just increasing the airflow a bit around the beat notes for emphasis and chiff. I don't tongue at all myself, though sometimes I "cough," which I guess is a similar but less harsh version.
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
You tend to find (*sweeping generalisations coming up*) that a lot of pipers do not tongue when playing the whistle or use it very minimally because they are not used to doing it. There is certainly a school of thought within Irish music too that would suggest you shouldn't tongue.
In Milltown this summer in the whistle class I was in there were identified 3 main proponents of the whistle in Ireland, Micho Russell, Mary Bergin and Sean Ryan. They all have very different styles. Micho played a very laid back style that was not very heavily ornamented and without tonguing, Sean Ryan tongues an awful lot and Mary Bergin is somewhere in the middle - and they all sound fantastic.
Ultimately it is another technique that can be employed so why rule it out of the repertoire? It can be a great way of providing emphasis or articulation in a tune. Then you get techniques like double or triple tonguing that can give a staccato effect. There are of course notes on the whistle (c# in particular) when there really is no option if you want to ornament other than to tongue.
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
'In Milltown this summer in the whistle class I was in there were identified 3 main proponents of the whistle in Ireland, Micho Russell, Mary Bergin and Sean Ryan.'
Who was running this class and came up with such specious nonsense?
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
Not really no! Instead of shooting holes in someone else's reasoning (when you don't even know who it was) which, if you listen to the clips, bears out why don't you give your own opinion?
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
Do you agree that Micho Russell had a minimalist approach to tonguing? Do you agree that Sean Ryan tongues a lot? Are they not then the 2 stylistic extremes?
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
'In Milltown this summer in the whistle class I was in there were identified 3 main proponents of the whistle in Ireland, Micho Russell, Mary Bergin and Sean Ryan.'
'Out of interest though Mr Tethers, what do you disagree with about this?'
'3 main proponents'
I can't spell that out more clearly. It's a ridiculous statement.
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
Ok, to clarify for the nitpicker, I meant 3 broad approaches to tonguing, seeing as that is what is what this thread is about. I am well aware that there are huge numbers of whistle players in Ireland (I provided links for quite a few of them) and a broad range of styles but the question on this thread is about tonguing and the example I picked highlights the range of approaches taken.
Would you agree that there are 3 main ways to approach tonguing? 1. Hardly any (Micho) 2. A lot (Sean) 3. A balance (Mary).
Perhaps my initial statement came across as a bit broad. Happier now?
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
Most? At my count there are 5 Irish musicians, 4 Scottish and 1 from Manchester.
And if you make the stretch to include Mike McGoldrick as an Irish musician then that is 6 to 4!
Marc Duff could probably be considered a key figure in the development of a "Scottish" whistle style although he has also been influenced by Mary Bergin. Iain MacDonald is also one of the few wooden flute players in Scotland focusing on Scottish music on the flute. It would be fair to say he is at the forefront of Scottish flute music. Peter and Fred (and Iain) are good examples of Scottish pipers who have added whistle to their repertoire.
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
So half of them, in fact, are not in Ireland (unless there have been some serious plate tectonics since last I looked at a map, Manchester is not in Ireland).
I guess I find it a problematic statement because there are lots of whistle players in Scotland and Ireland who may be brilliant but have not been recorded or made themselves well known in any way and who may not listen obsessively to the playing of whistle players who do record lots. Not to mention folks like Seamus Ennis and Paddy Keenan who were and are (respectively) great whistle players but better known for uilleann piping. So it is controversial, to say the least, to make the argument that players x, y, and z are indeed "main proponents" over whistle style when the development thereof is far more complex than that. I suspect that might be Floss the Tethers' issue with your statement as well.
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
As you are clearly aware I clarified that the statement is relating to tonguing. I am well aware that there are lots of different whistle players out there but it is unarguable, frankly, that Micho, Mary and Sean represent three different styles of tonguing. It is also patently obvious to anyone with common sense who is not choosing to argue for the sake of it that Micho did not tongue or ornament much and Sean does - as backed up by video evidence and numerous recordings. It is also an argument that I have heard you make in the past too.
I have not recorded whistle and neither am I particularly good but I still know who these three players are and recognise that they have influenced a great many other musicians, whistlers and non-whistlers. Now for someone who spends so much time swearing by Ennis and Clancy, Keenan and Reck to turn round and say that there are others who haven't been recorded who could be more influential or better players is a bit rich.
You only need to look at the influence that musicians like Brian Finnigan, John Doyle, Michael McGoldrick and Sharon Shannon have on modern Irish music to realise that those that have recorded naturally have a bigger influence on how the music develops. That is why people bleat on about Ennis and Coleman. It is not because they were the best musicians necessarily, it is because they were the best known and most recorded and ipso facto the most influential.
I am quite sure if you ask any decent musician to name their main influences they would be able to do so without hesitation. You will find that they did spend a lot of time listening to these people and that is one major element of their own success.
Mary Bergin is quite clearly the most influential whistle player in traditional Irish music without exception. Sean Ryan and Micho Russell also had their own styles which have been oft emulated. The only controversy in this thread is that appears to be up for debate!
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
It is silly not to use tonguing on the whistle. It's a natural technique
for the instrument. Not tonguing is a bit like refusing to use
slides on a fiddle or refusing to hammer-on on a guitar.
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
Thanks everyone for the responses and the spirited discussion!
No cause for Alarm, thanks for all the links etc, very illuminating, I sat last night and listened to Mary Bergin on Spotify after checking them out...
Hup, my original post was maybe slightly obtuse, I agree, point blank refusing to use a technique on an instrument would be silly, I was just saying that my natural inclination when playing tunes is geared more towards gracing, as a result of the shedloads of gracings you learn and use when playing the pipes.
I'm quite happy to learn to use the tongue, if it will help make me a more musical player. I was more concerned that I was commiting heresy by influencing my whistling with my piping experiences.....
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
IN case it is helpful, I thopught I'd provide some thoughts from the perspective of another instrument.
If you use your toungue when playing the banjo (hanging, or indeed flapping out of the side of your mouth), then the more tasteful proponents will look down their noses at you.
If simple old style drooling from the corners of the mouth was good enough for the older generation then it should be good enough for the players of today.
Although I do hope someday to achieve full incontinence, but that generally only comes after a lifetime of playing
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
Cheers Chris
I find that it only takes about 8 pints or so to achieve full incontinence these days, though I have to be careful about coughing or sneezing too hard for a day or so after only 6........
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
I would say that the "default" method for articulating ITM tunes on a whistle would be to use cuts, rolls and slides - athough "tonguing" might be OK in some places in some tunes.
Tonguing might also well be the default method for ETM or other TM traditions.
Tonguing would also be the default method on a recorder, as opposed to a whistle.
Just because a particular technique is available on a given instrument doesn't mean that it is always appropriate to use it.
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
I'm not disagreeing with your descriptions of their respective styles. When you say they are great, influential representations of whatever, then I'm not going to disagree their either, as of course they are. I'm taking issue with your contention that they are the main proponents of three whistle styles, which you have put into three boxes. My argument is that whistle style is far more complex than that given how ubiquitous the instrument is, and there are substantially more variations of style than just three.
I would shy away from claims like "x has had the most influence on their instrument" since influence isn't exactly measurable. How people construct their own style of playing comes from a far more complex array of factors, the foremost of which are probably the live people you play music with every week.
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
What I said was that they are the three main proponents of 3 styles of tonguing - and they are. They represent the extremes and the "middle ground" when discussing tonguing. Only an idiot would disagree. Anyway it was not me that came up with that analysis it was my tutor at Willie Clancy Week. And I am perfectly prepared to accept their analysis as (s)he is a very well respected whistle player and I am an awful tooter.
When it comes to an instrument like the whistle I have no problem saying that someone like Mary Bergin is the most influential player on that instrument. Whistle is probably played to a greater or lesser extent than any other instrument within Irish music as it is seen as a starter instrument for many before they move on to something else. Few people take it on as their main instrument and master it and are seen as developing the instrument and its reputation. I would say that Mary Bergin is undoubtably someone who has done that. So has Micho Russell and Sean Ryan. But of the 3 of them Mary's style is probably the most copied. In Scotland Marc Duff would be the archetypal Scottish whistle player - drawing his influences from Mary Bergin, the recorder and Scottish pipe music.
Why is influence not measurable? Like everything else data could be gathered if someone took the time. How I have developed my guitar playing has come largely from the people I have played with week in and week out as well as the handful of tutors I have had. I would not disagree with that but that is looking at the very small picture of one person rather than the wider picture of a scene or a broad style. You have to ask yourself where they got their influences from and where their inflluences got their influences from, how the whole thing interacts. I would suggest that guitar accompaniment style has changed over the years as it has developed and it is not coincidental that it is generally getting more "rocky" or more "jazzy". There are people that influence the style of the whole culture.
Out of interest, of all the people you play with week in and week out who would you say has most influenced your piping technique and style?
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
> ... "tonguing" might be OK in some places in some tunes. <
Glad you said that, Mix. In response to your bull (in the papal sense), Missus/Messrs Bergin, Moloney, Potts, Ryan, Kilduff, McDermott (et al ad infinitum) will be able to breathe a sigh of relief / stop spinning in their grave for fear of excommunication.
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
A whistle is a tube with holes in it, with a fipple at one end, and open at the other.
So is a recorder
Sure, there is a difference in tonal quality. But it's not that great. If you made a whistle and a recorder using the same material, with your eyes shut you would be hard pressed to tell the one from the other.
The main advantage of the whistle over the recorder is that the whistle fingering system lends itself to ornamentation, in the way that the recorder does not.
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
"Sure, there is a difference in tonal quality. But it's not that great. If you made a whistle and a recorder using the same material, with your eyes shut you would be hard pressed to tell the one from the other."
I know what you mean but that is not strictly true. For all their plasticky sound Susato whistles, for example, do not really sound like recorders. The same can be said for wooden recorders and wooden whistles. The main difference is the conical bore in the recorder - that is the main difference between the two instruments and the reason the recorder has such messed up fingering!
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
Nice one, Alistair. Why bother constructing an argument based on logic and evidence when all you really have to do is insert a statement asserting anyone who disagrees with your claim is an idiot. You can probably save yourself all the bother of writing long posts in the first place by cutting straight the chase and saying, "I think you're moron. The end."
More seriously, your question about my influence is really hard to answer because I've been a session vagrant for most of the time I have been playing. The last time I was playing with the same people, week in and week out, for as much as a year was like three years ago back in Colorado. I'm rarely around other pipers so there is no great piping mentor I have taken inspiration from. That all said, there are assorted people who have had a profound effect on how I was thinking about the music or playing it.
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
Ok Al, hands up on that one. ironically I did think of those Clarke whistles even as I posted that comment. The recorder bore does affect the recorder's sound.
I also did acknowledge that there are wooden recorders - but they do not sound like wooden whistles. I'm not really a fan of those Clarke whistles - i feel they are going to give me a splinter, but that is another discussion.
Emily - I am not writing short posts claiming people are just idiots because I then look childish and lose the argument. I am able to argue my case in full because I am right and it is based on evidence. I apologise (to everyone) if it makes me look like an a*se at times but I was only trying to be helpfl and answer someone's query and am surprised at all the folk (well you and Floss) who have contested it.
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
I think you are right about the styles of playing Bergin, Ryan, and Russell represent, but I would be more hesitant to assert that they are the main proponents of whistle playing. Maaaaaybe you can sort of make that claim about Bergin but not so much the other two.
You said influence can be measurable, so we can do an armchair study, right? Are their huge numbers of whistle players playing like Russell? Not that I have heard. And to be honest, I hadn't heard of Sean Ryan (other than as the name of a couple tunes) until you bought that CD of his in Ireland last year. If you were to ask every whistle player you knew who's whistle playing they listened to, what do you think their answers would be?
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
I did not say they were the main proponents of whistle playing - least ways I clarified that that was not what I meant before you even chose to enter this "discussion". They are the three key figures if you are to look at particular styles of tonguing though, which, as I said, was what this thread was all about.
Surveys could be done if someone had the time or inclination - I have neither. I haven't heard too many people playing like Micho Russell, no - but that is precisely why he is the best example of that particular style (an absence of tonguing). I can't help it if you hadn't heard of Sean Ryan.
Anyway my point was not that they were necessarily the best players around but rather that they are archetypal of particular sounds.
If you asked good whistle players who their influences were I can guarantee that most of them would mention Mary Bergin amongst others. If you asked newer players that question then you would be more likely to get Brian Finnigan in the answers as he is both an exceptional player and the man of the moment. If you asked a youngster in Clare I get the impression they would name local people as they have not heard of anyone else!
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
The term 'proponents' of three styles was an unfortunate choice of words, or perhaps we should say the reaction and interpretations were unfortunate. The three players are good examples of three different approaches and if you examine their playing, you can see different ways the instrument can be played.
Here in New England, the heavily tongued sound of fife playing is definitely one influence, although most of the people I know that play both fife and flute, or fife and whistle, have learned to approach the instruments in a much different style.
And No Cause, sorry to poke at your 'conical' statement, but as someone who always advocates the sound and playing of more traditionally crafted whistles, I just couldn't resist.
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
No worries Al - Are any whistles other than the Clarke whistles conical in nature? - tapered might be a better description. Obviously Sweetone (but they are clarkes too). I was just wondering what it is that makes the Clarke whistles more traditionally crafted.
Remember that cuts and taps are interuptions, not grace-notes. If too much tone is produced by the cut or tap, then it is not brief enough and will result in too much "chirpyness".
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
For your info a C# has very complex fingering along the lines of:
OOO OOO
I would just play a C nat like this:
OXX OOO
Works fine like that for me.
There are a few limited options for effecting an ornament on a C# where you might wiggle a few fingers but it does not tend to be overly effective - certainly not unless you also tongue.
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
Damn NCA - right you are! that is C-nat .. unless playing a D# whistle ;) - I should always finish my coffee before posting anything !!
I'm still struggling with different ways to embellish C# - the tap is simple enough, but a plausible cut is still beyond me.
Of all the Gens, Feadogs etc I have tested, the OXX OOO c-nat is a little sharp.- OXX OXX, OXX XOX or OXX XOO will play on the note depending on the whislte - it's not a great concern because the OXX OOO note can be hit with breath control.
As far as tongueing is concerned: if it works it works. One of my favourite players Brid O'Donnohue uses tongueing very effectively, as a rhythmical technique it certainly brings a lot more dynamic into the performance. Of course, like any other technique, if not applied tastefully it will fail.
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
I try to emulate the 'popping' articulation that Paddy Keenan
and others do the pipes. Is that the 'closed' or 'open' style?
I can't get that straight. I also quite like what Brian Finnegan
does.
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
Mozle,
you could always drill an extra hole at the top of your whistle and cover it with sellotape leaving a bit folded back as a handle. Or of you are make something out of velcro.
As you don't need any fingers for er.., fingering c# you have your left hand free to quickly whip off the the sellotape/velcro and snap it back on to produce the desired cut. Use your right hand to stop the whistle dropping in your beer.
Don't know why this wasn't introduced as standards years ago. ITM is so hidebound.
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
It is certainly true that some whistles do struggle with
OXX OOO
For c nat.
I have a Burke just now though and that manages fine, as does my old Susato.
For ornamenting a C# I believe Brian Finnigan sometimes runs the fingers from his left hand over the top 3 holes towards the mouth which produces an interesting effect.
Ultimately any technique overdone can ruin a tune. The ultimate point though is that tonguing is another technique that can be employed when playing the whistle (and is employed by a great many of the top players) so you are just limiting yourself by ruling it out altogether.
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
One of the things that the Wombat has always found especially tedious about the TM (not just Irish) scene is that there are too many self appointed guru chicken strokers who think that TM is somehow a permanently frozen snapshot from 10am 14th of August 18hundred and something and that is that. They then proceed to pontificate endlessly about "correct" methods for everything including how to play an instrument.
Markt, just play your instrument. If it sounds better than another way of playing or better suits a tune it then do it. As far as tongueing goes, the Wombat is a long term and enthusiastic practitioner but recommends subtly trying to ensure bathing first.
Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
OK, apologies for the title, and I know there are numerous discussions with regards to tonguing here already....
I'm currently getting to grips with the whistle, and my previous experience with a windblown instrument is the GHB, and as a result I'm finding that my natural inclination is to use a grace note rather than using my tongue for emphasis of a note, if needed.
Should I try and resist temptation and work on using the tongue, or not worry about it too much and carry on as I am?
My other concern is I dont want to be learning tunes, and have them coming out sounding too "chirpy".
Thanks
# Posted on March 5th 2009 by markt123
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
I'd say stick with your temptation, personally. I prefer smooth ornamented playing to choppy chirpiness for most tunes. If you're worried about your playing sounding too flat, try working on just increasing the airflow a bit around the beat notes for emphasis and chiff. I don't tongue at all myself, though sometimes I "cough," which I guess is a similar but less harsh version.
# Posted on March 5th 2009 by Whiddler
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
You tend to find (*sweeping generalisations coming up*) that a lot of pipers do not tongue when playing the whistle or use it very minimally because they are not used to doing it. There is certainly a school of thought within Irish music too that would suggest you shouldn't tongue.
In Milltown this summer in the whistle class I was in there were identified 3 main proponents of the whistle in Ireland, Micho Russell, Mary Bergin and Sean Ryan. They all have very different styles. Micho played a very laid back style that was not very heavily ornamented and without tonguing, Sean Ryan tongues an awful lot and Mary Bergin is somewhere in the middle - and they all sound fantastic.
Ultimately it is another technique that can be employed so why rule it out of the repertoire? It can be a great way of providing emphasis or articulation in a tune. Then you get techniques like double or triple tonguing that can give a staccato effect. There are of course notes on the whistle (c# in particular) when there really is no option if you want to ornament other than to tongue.
# Posted on March 5th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
Micho Russell:
):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9eC_MYp-5I
Mary Bergin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u99usJnGc48
Sean Ryan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGjej35p3E0
Other great players:
Brian Finnigan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FD9pH6YZ6_0
Marc Duff:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeDYe52XHWo
(The whistle is more prominant further into the clip)
Cormac Breatnach:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPiEUaxHvFw
Iain MacDonald of Glenuig:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymJrIgceiF0
Peter Morrison (of the mighty Bramax!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3thjZuZULO8
Fred Morrison:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVztCC37wlc
Michael McGoldrick:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVztCC37wlc
Ultimately there are lots of different ways of playing the whistle - find the one that suits you.
# Posted on March 5th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
Here's a nice little clip hidden away on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hN6hzzoeIWk
# Posted on March 5th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
'In Milltown this summer in the whistle class I was in there were identified 3 main proponents of the whistle in Ireland, Micho Russell, Mary Bergin and Sean Ryan.'
Who was running this class and came up with such specious nonsense?
# Posted on March 5th 2009 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
Not saying!
# Posted on March 5th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
Out of interest though Mr Tethers, what do you disagree with about this?
# Posted on March 5th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
Well, it's crap, isn't it? Is that a good enough reason?
# Posted on March 5th 2009 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
Not really no! Instead of shooting holes in someone else's reasoning (when you don't even know who it was) which, if you listen to the clips, bears out why don't you give your own opinion?
# Posted on March 5th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
Do you agree that Micho Russell had a minimalist approach to tonguing? Do you agree that Sean Ryan tongues a lot? Are they not then the 2 stylistic extremes?
# Posted on March 5th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
'In Milltown this summer in the whistle class I was in there were identified 3 main proponents of the whistle in Ireland, Micho Russell, Mary Bergin and Sean Ryan.'
'Out of interest though Mr Tethers, what do you disagree with about this?'
'3 main proponents'
I can't spell that out more clearly. It's a ridiculous statement.
# Posted on March 5th 2009 by MacCruiskeen
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
Ok, to clarify for the nitpicker, I meant 3 broad approaches to tonguing, seeing as that is what is what this thread is about. I am well aware that there are huge numbers of whistle players in Ireland (I provided links for quite a few of them) and a broad range of styles but the question on this thread is about tonguing and the example I picked highlights the range of approaches taken.
Would you agree that there are 3 main ways to approach tonguing? 1. Hardly any (Micho) 2. A lot (Sean) 3. A balance (Mary).
Perhaps my initial statement came across as a bit broad. Happier now?
# Posted on March 5th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
"I am well aware that there are huge numbers of whistle players in Ireland (I provided links for quite a few of them)"
While we are nitpicking, most of the musos on your youtube links are not in Ireland.
# Posted on March 5th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
Most? At my count there are 5 Irish musicians, 4 Scottish and 1 from Manchester.
And if you make the stretch to include Mike McGoldrick as an Irish musician then that is 6 to 4!
Marc Duff could probably be considered a key figure in the development of a "Scottish" whistle style although he has also been influenced by Mary Bergin. Iain MacDonald is also one of the few wooden flute players in Scotland focusing on Scottish music on the flute. It would be fair to say he is at the forefront of Scottish flute music. Peter and Fred (and Iain) are good examples of Scottish pipers who have added whistle to their repertoire.
# Posted on March 5th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
So half of them, in fact, are not in Ireland (unless there have been some serious plate tectonics since last I looked at a map, Manchester is not in Ireland).
I guess I find it a problematic statement because there are lots of whistle players in Scotland and Ireland who may be brilliant but have not been recorded or made themselves well known in any way and who may not listen obsessively to the playing of whistle players who do record lots. Not to mention folks like Seamus Ennis and Paddy Keenan who were and are (respectively) great whistle players but better known for uilleann piping. So it is controversial, to say the least, to make the argument that players x, y, and z are indeed "main proponents" over whistle style when the development thereof is far more complex than that. I suspect that might be Floss the Tethers' issue with your statement as well.
# Posted on March 6th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
As you are clearly aware I clarified that the statement is relating to tonguing. I am well aware that there are lots of different whistle players out there but it is unarguable, frankly, that Micho, Mary and Sean represent three different styles of tonguing. It is also patently obvious to anyone with common sense who is not choosing to argue for the sake of it that Micho did not tongue or ornament much and Sean does - as backed up by video evidence and numerous recordings. It is also an argument that I have heard you make in the past too.
I have not recorded whistle and neither am I particularly good but I still know who these three players are and recognise that they have influenced a great many other musicians, whistlers and non-whistlers. Now for someone who spends so much time swearing by Ennis and Clancy, Keenan and Reck to turn round and say that there are others who haven't been recorded who could be more influential or better players is a bit rich.
You only need to look at the influence that musicians like Brian Finnigan, John Doyle, Michael McGoldrick and Sharon Shannon have on modern Irish music to realise that those that have recorded naturally have a bigger influence on how the music develops. That is why people bleat on about Ennis and Coleman. It is not because they were the best musicians necessarily, it is because they were the best known and most recorded and ipso facto the most influential.
I am quite sure if you ask any decent musician to name their main influences they would be able to do so without hesitation. You will find that they did spend a lot of time listening to these people and that is one major element of their own success.
Mary Bergin is quite clearly the most influential whistle player in traditional Irish music without exception. Sean Ryan and Micho Russell also had their own styles which have been oft emulated. The only controversy in this thread is that appears to be up for debate!
# Posted on March 6th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
to markt123, the OP-
I just noticed the double entendre in the title. Very good! I enjoyed that.
# Posted on March 6th 2009 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
It is silly not to use tonguing on the whistle. It's a natural technique
for the instrument. Not tonguing is a bit like refusing to use
slides on a fiddle or refusing to hammer-on on a guitar.
# Posted on March 6th 2009 by Hup
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
Thanks everyone for the responses and the spirited discussion!
I was more concerned that I was commiting heresy by influencing my whistling with my piping experiences.....
No cause for Alarm, thanks for all the links etc, very illuminating, I sat last night and listened to Mary Bergin on Spotify after checking them out...
Hup, my original post was maybe slightly obtuse, I agree, point blank refusing to use a technique on an instrument would be silly, I was just saying that my natural inclination when playing tunes is geared more towards gracing, as a result of the shedloads of gracings you learn and use when playing the pipes.
I'm quite happy to learn to use the tongue, if it will help make me a more musical player.
# Posted on March 6th 2009 by markt123
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
IN case it is helpful, I thopught I'd provide some thoughts from the perspective of another instrument.
If you use your toungue when playing the banjo (hanging, or indeed flapping out of the side of your mouth), then the more tasteful proponents will look down their noses at you.
If simple old style drooling from the corners of the mouth was good enough for the older generation then it should be good enough for the players of today.
Although I do hope someday to achieve full incontinence, but that generally only comes after a lifetime of playing
Hope that helps - Chris
# Posted on March 6th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
I find that it only takes about 8 pints or so to achieve full incontinence these days, though I have to be careful about coughing or sneezing too hard for a day or so after only 6........
# Posted on March 6th 2009 by markt123
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
I would say that the "default" method for articulating ITM tunes on a whistle would be to use cuts, rolls and slides - athough "tonguing" might be OK in some places in some tunes.
Tonguing might also well be the default method for ETM or other TM traditions.
Tonguing would also be the default method on a recorder, as opposed to a whistle.
Just because a particular technique is available on a given instrument doesn't mean that it is always appropriate to use it.
Do fiddlers use vibrato much when playing ITM?
# Posted on March 6th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
I'm not disagreeing with your descriptions of their respective styles. When you say they are great, influential representations of whatever, then I'm not going to disagree their either, as of course they are. I'm taking issue with your contention that they are the main proponents of three whistle styles, which you have put into three boxes. My argument is that whistle style is far more complex than that given how ubiquitous the instrument is, and there are substantially more variations of style than just three.
I would shy away from claims like "x has had the most influence on their instrument" since influence isn't exactly measurable. How people construct their own style of playing comes from a far more complex array of factors, the foremost of which are probably the live people you play music with every week.
# Posted on March 6th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
What I said was that they are the three main proponents of 3 styles of tonguing - and they are. They represent the extremes and the "middle ground" when discussing tonguing. Only an idiot would disagree. Anyway it was not me that came up with that analysis it was my tutor at Willie Clancy Week. And I am perfectly prepared to accept their analysis as (s)he is a very well respected whistle player and I am an awful tooter.
When it comes to an instrument like the whistle I have no problem saying that someone like Mary Bergin is the most influential player on that instrument. Whistle is probably played to a greater or lesser extent than any other instrument within Irish music as it is seen as a starter instrument for many before they move on to something else. Few people take it on as their main instrument and master it and are seen as developing the instrument and its reputation. I would say that Mary Bergin is undoubtably someone who has done that. So has Micho Russell and Sean Ryan. But of the 3 of them Mary's style is probably the most copied. In Scotland Marc Duff would be the archetypal Scottish whistle player - drawing his influences from Mary Bergin, the recorder and Scottish pipe music.
Why is influence not measurable? Like everything else data could be gathered if someone took the time. How I have developed my guitar playing has come largely from the people I have played with week in and week out as well as the handful of tutors I have had. I would not disagree with that but that is looking at the very small picture of one person rather than the wider picture of a scene or a broad style. You have to ask yourself where they got their influences from and where their inflluences got their influences from, how the whole thing interacts. I would suggest that guitar accompaniment style has changed over the years as it has developed and it is not coincidental that it is generally getting more "rocky" or more "jazzy". There are people that influence the style of the whole culture.
Out of interest, of all the people you play with week in and week out who would you say has most influenced your piping technique and style?
# Posted on March 6th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
>Only an idiot would disagree
Yikes!
# Posted on March 6th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
> ... "tonguing" might be OK in some places in some tunes. <
Glad you said that, Mix. In response to your bull (in the papal sense), Missus/Messrs Bergin, Moloney, Potts, Ryan, Kilduff, McDermott (et al ad infinitum) will be able to breathe a sigh of relief / stop spinning in their grave for fear of excommunication.
# Posted on March 6th 2009 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
@Jeeves Tones
No Cause for Alarm: "There is certainly a school of thought within Irish music too that would suggest you shouldn't tongue".
Also, I prefaced my remark with "I would say ..."
I've tried and used both methods myself. Articulation by tonguing is certainly a lot easier ...
... but if you going to be doing it all the time, you would be missing the main advantage of the whistle over the recorder.
You might as well throw the whistle away and play the recorder instead. At least you would have the advantage of having a chromatic instrument.
# Posted on March 6th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
Surely the main advantage of the whistle over the recorder is the sound?!
# Posted on March 6th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
>Surely the main advantage of the whistle over the recorder is the sound?!
Not if you don't have any pinkies
# Posted on March 6th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
A whistle is a tube with holes in it, with a fipple at one end, and open at the other.
So is a recorder
Sure, there is a difference in tonal quality. But it's not that great. If you made a whistle and a recorder using the same material, with your eyes shut you would be hard pressed to tell the one from the other.
The main advantage of the whistle over the recorder is that the whistle fingering system lends itself to ornamentation, in the way that the recorder does not.
# Posted on March 6th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
On the other hand if you hear a recorder played really well then it can be great for "The Music"
# Posted on March 6th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
"Sure, there is a difference in tonal quality. But it's not that great. If you made a whistle and a recorder using the same material, with your eyes shut you would be hard pressed to tell the one from the other."
I know what you mean but that is not strictly true. For all their plasticky sound Susato whistles, for example, do not really sound like recorders. The same can be said for wooden recorders and wooden whistles. The main difference is the conical bore in the recorder - that is the main difference between the two instruments and the reason the recorder has such messed up fingering!
# Posted on March 6th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
That is funny, my Clarke whistle, which is a true tin whistle, has a conical bore. Try again, No Cause!
# Posted on March 7th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
Well said, AlBrown!
... It is of course the size and position of the holes that determines the fingering required ...
And who says that recorders are always made of plastic?
Some (for example) are made of hardwood.
# Posted on March 7th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
Please ignore my last comment!
What I meant say was:
Fipple flutes (whistles and recorders)
1) The size, position and number of holes determines the fingering system.
2) The material used for construction (and, to a lesser extent, the angle of the bore) determines the tonal quality.
3) The length (of course) determines the fundamental pitch.
The rest is largely down to playing style.
However: -
1) Top "B" and top "C" are much easier to produce on a whistle than on a recorder. Quite a few ITM tunes rise to top "B".
2) The fingering system of a whistle (for most notes) lends itself to ornamentation in a way that the recorder does not.
# Posted on March 7th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
Nice one, Alistair. Why bother constructing an argument based on logic and evidence when all you really have to do is insert a statement asserting anyone who disagrees with your claim is an idiot. You can probably save yourself all the bother of writing long posts in the first place by cutting straight the chase and saying, "I think you're moron. The end."
More seriously, your question about my influence is really hard to answer because I've been a session vagrant for most of the time I have been playing. The last time I was playing with the same people, week in and week out, for as much as a year was like three years ago back in Colorado. I'm rarely around other pipers so there is no great piping mentor I have taken inspiration from. That all said, there are assorted people who have had a profound effect on how I was thinking about the music or playing it.
# Posted on March 7th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
Ok Al, hands up on that one. ironically I did think of those Clarke whistles even as I posted that comment. The recorder bore does affect the recorder's sound.
I also did acknowledge that there are wooden recorders - but they do not sound like wooden whistles. I'm not really a fan of those Clarke whistles - i feel they are going to give me a splinter, but that is another discussion.
Emily - I am not writing short posts claiming people are just idiots because I then look childish and lose the argument. I am able to argue my case in full because I am right and it is based on evidence. I apologise (to everyone) if it makes me look like an a*se at times but I was only trying to be helpfl and answer someone's query and am surprised at all the folk (well you and Floss) who have contested it.
# Posted on March 7th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
I think you are right about the styles of playing Bergin, Ryan, and Russell represent, but I would be more hesitant to assert that they are the main proponents of whistle playing. Maaaaaybe you can sort of make that claim about Bergin but not so much the other two.
You said influence can be measurable, so we can do an armchair study, right? Are their huge numbers of whistle players playing like Russell? Not that I have heard. And to be honest, I hadn't heard of Sean Ryan (other than as the name of a couple tunes) until you bought that CD of his in Ireland last year. If you were to ask every whistle player you knew who's whistle playing they listened to, what do you think their answers would be?
# Posted on March 8th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
I did not say they were the main proponents of whistle playing - least ways I clarified that that was not what I meant before you even chose to enter this "discussion". They are the three key figures if you are to look at particular styles of tonguing though, which, as I said, was what this thread was all about.
Surveys could be done if someone had the time or inclination - I have neither. I haven't heard too many people playing like Micho Russell, no - but that is precisely why he is the best example of that particular style (an absence of tonguing). I can't help it if you hadn't heard of Sean Ryan.
Anyway my point was not that they were necessarily the best players around but rather that they are archetypal of particular sounds.
If you asked good whistle players who their influences were I can guarantee that most of them would mention Mary Bergin amongst others. If you asked newer players that question then you would be more likely to get Brian Finnigan in the answers as he is both an exceptional player and the man of the moment. If you asked a youngster in Clare I get the impression they would name local people as they have not heard of anyone else!
# Posted on March 8th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
The term 'proponents' of three styles was an unfortunate choice of words, or perhaps we should say the reaction and interpretations were unfortunate. The three players are good examples of three different approaches and if you examine their playing, you can see different ways the instrument can be played.
Here in New England, the heavily tongued sound of fife playing is definitely one influence, although most of the people I know that play both fife and flute, or fife and whistle, have learned to approach the instruments in a much different style.
And No Cause, sorry to poke at your 'conical' statement, but as someone who always advocates the sound and playing of more traditionally crafted whistles, I just couldn't resist.
# Posted on March 8th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
No worries Al - Are any whistles other than the Clarke whistles conical in nature? - tapered might be a better description. Obviously Sweetone (but they are clarkes too). I was just wondering what it is that makes the Clarke whistles more traditionally crafted.
# Posted on March 8th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
C# ornamentation:
C# (basic note) = OXX OXX (or OXX OXO depending on the whistle)
C# cut = OXX XXX
C# tap = XXX OXX
C# roll = OXX OXX, (cut)OXX XXX, OXX OXX, (tap)XXX OXX, OXX OXX
No need to tongue C#.
Remember that cuts and taps are interuptions, not grace-notes. If too much tone is produced by the cut or tap, then it is not brief enough and will result in too much "chirpyness".
# Posted on March 9th 2009 by Mozle
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
I am sorry Mozle but I don't put much faith in that - largely because you gave the fingering for a C natural rather than a C#!!
# Posted on March 9th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
For your info a C# has very complex fingering along the lines of:
OOO OOO
I would just play a C nat like this:
OXX OOO
Works fine like that for me.
There are a few limited options for effecting an ornament on a C# where you might wiggle a few fingers but it does not tend to be overly effective - certainly not unless you also tongue.
# Posted on March 9th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
Damn NCA - right you are! that is C-nat .. unless playing a D# whistle ;) - I should always finish my coffee before posting anything !!
I'm still struggling with different ways to embellish C# - the tap is simple enough, but a plausible cut is still beyond me.
Of all the Gens, Feadogs etc I have tested, the OXX OOO c-nat is a little sharp.- OXX OXX, OXX XOX or OXX XOO will play on the note depending on the whislte - it's not a great concern because the OXX OOO note can be hit with breath control.
As far as tongueing is concerned: if it works it works. One of my favourite players Brid O'Donnohue uses tongueing very effectively, as a rhythmical technique it certainly brings a lot more dynamic into the performance. Of course, like any other technique, if not applied tastefully it will fail.
# Posted on March 9th 2009 by Mozle
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
I try to emulate the 'popping' articulation that Paddy Keenan
and others do the pipes. Is that the 'closed' or 'open' style?
I can't get that straight. I also quite like what Brian Finnegan
does.
# Posted on March 9th 2009 by Hup
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
Mozle,
you could always drill an extra hole at the top of your whistle and cover it with sellotape leaving a bit folded back as a handle. Or of you are make something out of velcro.
As you don't need any fingers for er.., fingering c# you have your left hand free to quickly whip off the the sellotape/velcro and snap it back on to produce the desired cut. Use your right hand to stop the whistle dropping in your beer.
Don't know why this wasn't introduced as standards years ago. ITM is so hidebound.
- chris
# Posted on March 9th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
It is certainly true that some whistles do struggle with
OXX OOO
For c nat.
I have a Burke just now though and that manages fine, as does my old Susato.
For ornamenting a C# I believe Brian Finnigan sometimes runs the fingers from his left hand over the top 3 holes towards the mouth which produces an interesting effect.
Ultimately any technique overdone can ruin a tune. The ultimate point though is that tonguing is another technique that can be employed when playing the whistle (and is employed by a great many of the top players) so you are just limiting yourself by ruling it out altogether.
# Posted on March 9th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
The ornament I use most often on the C# is to take a breath.
# Posted on March 9th 2009 by ...
Re: Tonguing : For Cunning Linguists or should Whistlers do it too?
One of the things that the Wombat has always found especially tedious about the TM (not just Irish) scene is that there are too many self appointed guru chicken strokers who think that TM is somehow a permanently frozen snapshot from 10am 14th of August 18hundred and something and that is that. They then proceed to pontificate endlessly about "correct" methods for everything including how to play an instrument.
Markt, just play your instrument. If it sounds better than another way of playing or better suits a tune it then do it. As far as tongueing goes, the Wombat is a long term and enthusiastic practitioner but recommends subtly trying to ensure bathing first.
# Posted on March 12th 2009 by WallyWombat