B and E, because they are the two notes in the B major scale which don't have sharps on them.
Your box is tuned with two rows of buttons, each row in a separate key; C major on the inside row, and B major on the outside.
C major has no sharps (or flats, for that matter), and B major has five sharps (A,C,D,F,G), so between them they provide every note played in Western music.
And the clever thing is they are available in both directions push and pull. Which is why a lot of accordions have E on bass in both directions as for B well a lot of modern layouts have that incorporated now too. Some people refer to these as the "magic" notes.
Of course we're talking about half tone boxes, with B/C the majority system for Irish music. My "magic notes" are F# and C#, since my system is C#/D.
Many other two-row systems, G/C, D/G, e.g have lots of duplicated notes. This gives more flexibllity in playing in some keys, but a few notes are missing. You do want to play in Ab major don't you!!??
pd, the implications of e & b being in both rows are this----as you get familiar with the layout, you learn when you are at a point in the tune where you have a choice as to which "e" or which "b" you want to use---the one on the push??? or the one on the pull??? the default approach is to choose the one that gives you the longest run of notes in one direction before you have to switch directions. this is why b/c sounds smoother than c#./d. on the one hand, it doesn't have that dance "punch" like the more melodeon-like layout of c#/d. but on the other hand, it is great for flowing, smooth fahy or clare-type music. so, your default objective is to make your choices so you are moving your bellows less, not more. if you are jerking them back & forth constantly, you are not optimizing your choices, see? that is not how a b/c bellows should be going.
at a much later stage of development, experienced b/c players occasionally will deliberately choose the opposite way---i.e., to forgo a smooth, long run to "punch" a note that falls at a point in the tune where the pulse is punching and they want an "oomph.". but that is something you get a feel for after many years of listening & playing (or so one of my teachers told me). when you are starting out, you are playing them to optimize less bellows and more one-direction lines.
Of course you can use the same rule of thumb on C#/D to decide whether to use the C# and F# on the pull or the push. The reason C#/D is "punchier" is that these notes occur far less often in Irish tunes in their usual keys than do E and B.
I would argue that the main reason the B/C is smoother is that you can get the sequence A-B-c#-d-e all on the pull. Since this lies in the middle range of most tunes, you can get some very legato-sounding runs. C#/D requires a lot of in-and-out (3 bellows changes) for that same passage.
For the rest of the common scales things are much more evenly divided. And smoothnessall depends what keys you are playing in and the nature of the tunes.
For example, try playing tunes that make heavy use of arpeggiated passages in D (and there are many hundreds of them) on both systems and then tell me that B/C is smoother. :-p Oh and ask yourself why Joe Burke plays Bonnie Kate in C...
though the default rules i described above are what any b/c teacher will tell you when you're getting oriented, i ruefully agree with your points, jeeves. it all depends on the key, and that of course is why many of the lovely b/c recordings are in eminor, aminor and other optimal b/c keys. or in case of an east clare player like christy mcnamara, c & gminor. johnny b. connolly's "bridgetown" cd is full of tunes in e minor & aminor and other optimal b/c keys. likewise the younger paddy o'brien of chulrua. when people say, "oh, that's an accordion tune," they usually mean, a b/c accordion tune, and it will be in e minor or one of the finnbar dwyer keys.
i am rueful because this can take one years to figure out without a teacher handy who can explain this in 15 minutes. my luck of the draw in going to box workshops in ireland was to get teachers who did zero technique, only ear feeding. so this took me a while to get.....duh, that's a bad b/c key, so CHANGE THE KEY!!! ......curses on "music in the glen." to this day, i sound horrible playing this tune.
Can I leap in and ask for box players to expand upon the key issue that ceemonster raises?
A couple of weeks ago a got a birthday card from my family with "we owe you and accordeon" as the message (huzzah! )
I've spent some time reading through all the threads I could find on a number of sites comparing c#d to bc, which certainly provided a lot of information without deciding me either way.
When I asked a friend for advice he kindly lent me a c#/c as a way to experiment and see try things out before investing. I fugured this was an ideal opportunity to try out both c#d &bc fingerings. I've only been at this for just short of a week and having tremendous fun, but thus far I've stuck entirely to c#d fingering up the rows. I can't believe how intuitive this style is (although I have been mostly sticking to d & emin): it is just like a tin whistle laid out on the keyboard.
Of course I've only been messing about for a few days & haven't yet tried out b/c, but I'm finding c#d very appealing.
However, most of my favourite players play bc e.g. Joe Burke Billy McK, Finbarr Dwyer (I think?). As do all my box playing acquaintances, although since the death of the sadly missed Bernie Greene (a beautiful giant of a man) I don't play very often with box players.
I'm not too concerned with the reduced teaching opportunities on c#d, what with domestic commitments etc I'm going to be mostly teaching myself. But what does concern me is the issue of the most friendly keys for each system.
I have read that the "best" keys for bc stretch from one flat to ##; & for c#d from 1-4#s. I'd like to ask, how strongly does this rule of thumb impact on the playing repertiore (and not of some super genius, but of a mere mortal)?
I'd far rather be able to play tunes with one flta or no accidentals than with 3 sharps (never liked Amaj) or 4 sharps (??). I'm less inclined to change the key of a tune unless it is one I just have to play.
The key issue appart, I think I'm leaning quite strongly towards c#d.
Sorry to be so long winded, and to ask so early in my box investigation. I has thought to ask something similar some weeks down the line, but when opporchancity knocks...
pitchfork, why not follow your leanings? C#/D will be easier to get up to speed on, especially if you are teaching yourself.
On the other hand, to make a fair assessment you might want to persist in spending a bit more time on B/C fingerings. They are definitely less intuitve (pig awkward in places) but if your favourite players are Joe B and Finbarr D then C#/D isn't the best choice for emulating their sound.
The good part is that, whichever system you choose, once you've been playing a few years you'll find yourself gradually exploring the fingerings used by the other crowd. After all they are the same instrument only separated by a couple of sharps.
Thanks Jeeves, if I keep leaning in that manner, that's the direction I'll probably fall in.
I've never been one for spending too long trying to emulate the particular techniques & styles of even my favourite players, although I'd love to capture their spirit.
When it comes down to it, i'm never going to be Joe or Finbarr, I'll probably go with what feels like the more natural system as being the one I'll likely to do marginally less badly in .Pity the c#d findering doesn't miraculously come with the optimal key range of b/c though
duplicated box buttons
duplicated box buttons
which buttons are duplicated on the bc box and most important - WHY?
# Posted on February 16th 2009 by Pat Duff
Re: duplicated box buttons
b and e because they are in both b and c.
# Posted on February 16th 2009 by polkageist
Re: duplicated box buttons
B and E, because they are the two notes in the B major scale which don't have sharps on them.
Your box is tuned with two rows of buttons, each row in a separate key; C major on the inside row, and B major on the outside.
C major has no sharps (or flats, for that matter), and B major has five sharps (A,C,D,F,G), so between them they provide every note played in Western music.
Eno
# Posted on February 16th 2009 by bc_box_player
Re: duplicated box buttons
ah, and then i was going to type a less cryptic response. Eno has it.
# Posted on February 16th 2009 by polkageist
Re: duplicated box buttons
And the clever thing is they are available in both directions push and pull. Which is why a lot of accordions have E on bass in both directions as for B well a lot of modern layouts have that incorporated now too. Some people refer to these as the "magic" notes.
# Posted on February 16th 2009 by upmine3
Re: duplicated box buttons
There are 7 notes in a diatonic scale.
You have 2 rows on a 2 row box, therefore 2 diatonic scales, total 14 notes.
But there are 12 semitiones in the chromatic scale.
So if these 14 notes cover all the notes in the chromatic scale, you must have 2 duplicates.
# Posted on February 16th 2009 by Jeeves Tones
Re: duplicated box buttons
Jeeves has it.
Of course we're talking about half tone boxes, with B/C the majority system for Irish music. My "magic notes" are F# and C#, since my system is C#/D.
Many other two-row systems, G/C, D/G, e.g have lots of duplicated notes. This gives more flexibllity in playing in some keys, but a few notes are missing. You do want to play in Ab major don't you!!??
Dan
# Posted on February 16th 2009 by curamach
Re: duplicated box buttons
"You do want to play in Ab major don't you!!??"
Oh, I do. Not gonna, though.
# Posted on February 16th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: duplicated box buttons
pd, the implications of e & b being in both rows are this----as you get familiar with the layout, you learn when you are at a point in the tune where you have a choice as to which "e" or which "b" you want to use---the one on the push??? or the one on the pull??? the default approach is to choose the one that gives you the longest run of notes in one direction before you have to switch directions. this is why b/c sounds smoother than c#./d. on the one hand, it doesn't have that dance "punch" like the more melodeon-like layout of c#/d. but on the other hand, it is great for flowing, smooth fahy or clare-type music. so, your default objective is to make your choices so you are moving your bellows less, not more. if you are jerking them back & forth constantly, you are not optimizing your choices, see? that is not how a b/c bellows should be going.
at a much later stage of development, experienced b/c players occasionally will deliberately choose the opposite way---i.e., to forgo a smooth, long run to "punch" a note that falls at a point in the tune where the pulse is punching and they want an "oomph.". but that is something you get a feel for after many years of listening & playing (or so one of my teachers told me). when you are starting out, you are playing them to optimize less bellows and more one-direction lines.
# Posted on February 16th 2009 by ceemonster
Re: duplicated box buttons
Of course you can use the same rule of thumb on C#/D to decide whether to use the C# and F# on the pull or the push. The reason C#/D is "punchier" is that these notes occur far less often in Irish tunes in their usual keys than do E and B.
# Posted on February 16th 2009 by GaryAMartin
Re: duplicated box buttons
I would argue that the main reason the B/C is smoother is that you can get the sequence A-B-c#-d-e all on the pull. Since this lies in the middle range of most tunes, you can get some very legato-sounding runs. C#/D requires a lot of in-and-out (3 bellows changes) for that same passage.
For the rest of the common scales things are much more evenly divided. And smoothnessall depends what keys you are playing in and the nature of the tunes.
For example, try playing tunes that make heavy use of arpeggiated passages in D (and there are many hundreds of them) on both systems and then tell me that B/C is smoother. :-p Oh and ask yourself why Joe Burke plays Bonnie Kate in C...
# Posted on February 16th 2009 by Jeeves Tones
Re: duplicated box buttons
though the default rules i described above are what any b/c teacher will tell you when you're getting oriented, i ruefully agree with your points, jeeves. it all depends on the key, and that of course is why many of the lovely b/c recordings are in eminor, aminor and other optimal b/c keys. or in case of an east clare player like christy mcnamara, c & gminor. johnny b. connolly's "bridgetown" cd is full of tunes in e minor & aminor and other optimal b/c keys. likewise the younger paddy o'brien of chulrua. when people say, "oh, that's an accordion tune," they usually mean, a b/c accordion tune, and it will be in e minor or one of the finnbar dwyer keys.
i am rueful because this can take one years to figure out without a teacher handy who can explain this in 15 minutes. my luck of the draw in going to box workshops in ireland was to get teachers who did zero technique, only ear feeding. so this took me a while to get.....duh, that's a bad b/c key, so CHANGE THE KEY!!! ......curses on "music in the glen." to this day, i sound horrible playing this tune.
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by ceemonster
Re: duplicated box buttons
Hi everybody,
)
): it is just like a tin whistle laid out on the keyboard.
Can I leap in and ask for box players to expand upon the key issue that ceemonster raises?
A couple of weeks ago a got a birthday card from my family with "we owe you and accordeon" as the message (huzzah!
I've spent some time reading through all the threads I could find on a number of sites comparing c#d to bc, which certainly provided a lot of information without deciding me either way.
When I asked a friend for advice he kindly lent me a c#/c as a way to experiment and see try things out before investing. I fugured this was an ideal opportunity to try out both c#d &bc fingerings. I've only been at this for just short of a week and having tremendous fun, but thus far I've stuck entirely to c#d fingering up the rows. I can't believe how intuitive this style is (although I have been mostly sticking to d & emin
Of course I've only been messing about for a few days & haven't yet tried out b/c, but I'm finding c#d very appealing.
However, most of my favourite players play bc e.g. Joe Burke Billy McK, Finbarr Dwyer (I think?). As do all my box playing acquaintances, although since the death of the sadly missed Bernie Greene (a beautiful giant of a man) I don't play very often with box players.
I'm not too concerned with the reduced teaching opportunities on c#d, what with domestic commitments etc I'm going to be mostly teaching myself. But what does concern me is the issue of the most friendly keys for each system.
I have read that the "best" keys for bc stretch from one flat to ##; & for c#d from 1-4#s. I'd like to ask, how strongly does this rule of thumb impact on the playing repertiore (and not of some super genius, but of a mere mortal)?
I'd far rather be able to play tunes with one flta or no accidentals than with 3 sharps (never liked Amaj) or 4 sharps (??). I'm less inclined to change the key of a tune unless it is one I just have to play.
The key issue appart, I think I'm leaning quite strongly towards c#d.
Sorry to be so long winded, and to ask so early in my box investigation. I has thought to ask something similar some weeks down the line, but when opporchancity knocks...
Cheers - Chris
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: duplicated box buttons
That's why I went 2 1/2 row B/C. I also have 2 'A's on my B and C rows.
The half row is nice since I get a b flat which works nicely in dealing with pianonazis with a passion for playing in F.
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by zippydw
Re: duplicated box buttons
pitchfork, why not follow your leanings? C#/D will be easier to get up to speed on, especially if you are teaching yourself.
On the other hand, to make a fair assessment you might want to persist in spending a bit more time on B/C fingerings. They are definitely less intuitve (pig awkward in places) but if your favourite players are Joe B and Finbarr D then C#/D isn't the best choice for emulating their sound.
The good part is that, whichever system you choose, once you've been playing a few years you'll find yourself gradually exploring the fingerings used by the other crowd. After all they are the same instrument only separated by a couple of sharps.
# Posted on February 17th 2009 by Jeeves Tones
Re: duplicated box buttons
Thanks Jeeves, if I keep leaning in that manner, that's the direction I'll probably fall in.
I've never been one for spending too long trying to emulate the particular techniques & styles of even my favourite players, although I'd love to capture their spirit.
When it comes down to it, i'm never going to be Joe or Finbarr, I'll probably go with what feels like the more natural system as being the one I'll likely to do marginally less badly in .Pity the c#d findering doesn't miraculously come with the optimal key range of b/c though
3 & 4 sharps: yuck! (exceptions admitted)
- chris
Best - chris
# Posted on February 19th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork