I haven't seen bowing cloned like that, since my days as a member of the 'Meldrum Fiddlers', in far off Aberdeenshire!
Maybe it's just me, & no harm to the two Fiddlers in question, they're doing a grand job, but identical bowing like that looks just a wee bit odd in an Irish context, don't you think.
Is this an indication that Fiddle tuition in Ireland is perhaps becoming a little too regimented?
In which case, I'm afraid ..... The end of the World is nigh!
Pray tell, what happened to the gay abandon of the Fiddler's Bow?
They must both have learned the tune from the same dots--that is, detailed sheet music, complete with bow markings. What other explanation could there be?
Poor kids, they probably just don't know any better. Nice energy, though, considering.
The fiddle sound was a bit too recessed to judge properly. The sound is the thing, not what they look like they're doing visually. I wouldn't call it very poor, that being too harsh perhaps, though I think I've heard a lot better. I think. That's what Charlie Darwin wrote above his postulated tree of life diagram: "I think. " It was the 19th century's equivalent of "IMHO." Good man, Charles old chap.
Aye Leoj, but only if you 'only' play in a Fiddle Orchestra!
Random ... Clinton never looked better!
Gary, believe it or not, there was a bunch of musicians at last year's festival. Hmmmm .......
"from the days of the 'Meldrum Fiddlers'" Random, believe me, you wouldn't want to hear it!
Or, let me rephrase that, you wouldn't want to hear me!
In any case, how is the sound of one fiddle, going to relate to a discussion on unison bowing practice?
Llig, why don't you say what you really think?
Aye Mickray, I'm sure you are probably right, same dots, same Fiddle teacher.
OK so far I guess, but I think it's high time he or she started encouraging them to start doing their own thing soon. Perhaps, learning their tunes by ear from lots of other sources, might be a useful next step for them?
Did you ever think that....maybe they are playing the same tune? Unusual I know for fiddle players, but it has been known to happen....duck....incoming!!!!
"Synchronized bowing now an Olympic sport?" - only if classical orchestras are excluded
I've looked at the video linked in the initial post, but only the first few seconds - for some reason it wouldn't proceed further (I'll try again some other time). It was fairly obvious from what I saw that this was a band and not a session, so almost by definition there would have been rehearsals. Under such conditions you'll tend to get a natural uniformity in bowing arising between fiddle players playing the same notes (one unconsciously copies the other); you don't need instruction from a teacher.
There are good musical reasons for having some uniformity in bowing. It is because the bow is not a longitudinally symmetric structure, and is not held symmetrically (i.e. at both ends!). Consequently, there is a difference in attack, dynamics and articulation according to whether you're using an up-bow or a down-bow, and there will be a difference in the resulting sound. Obviously, this difference won't be all that apparent in the free-form session environment, but it will come out in the sound on more exposed and noise-free occasions; which is why classical players, in particular, go to some lengths to get the bowing right. Another reason - and this applies to Irish music and other kinds of music just as much as it applies to classical - is that if you use the wrong bowing phrasing can sound wrong or awkward, and there are some techniques the efficiency of which depends on the bowing.
Back in the Good Ol' Days of music (pre-19th century in my book) there was a dreadful shortage of pencils so orchestral parts generally weren't marked up. They got the desired uniformity of bowing (again to get the right dynamics, articulation and phrasing) by a combination of memory, experience, and following a few ground rules, chief among which was using a down bow on strong beats and at the beginning of a bar. The occasional exception would be memorised for that piece.
Putting on my cellist's hat, it is worth pointing out that bowing that may be suitable for the violin is not necessarily always suitable for the cello - a fact that is not always recognised even by some conductors. I remember a shouting match in an orchestra rehearsal some years ago between the leader of the cello section (not me) and the conductor (a woodwind player) who wanted uniformity in the bowing direction of all the string sections in a particular passage so that it would "look good to the audience". The lead cellist pointed out that using the violin's bowing would make that passage awkward if not downright difficult and would affect the overall ensemble. This argument was supported by the leader of the orchestra so the conductor climbed and countermanded his instructions.
Which leads me to the Orchestral Cellist's Prayer (what with today being Sunday and all that): "Lord, we beseech Thee to send us a Conductor who understands and implements the differences in bowing between the violin and the cello". This is especially apposite because my chamber orchestra is losing its present excellent conductor in April and we are holding auditions for a successor at the end of March.
" .... it is worth pointing out that bowing that may be suitable for the violin is not necessarily always suitable for the cello."
I think it is also fair to say that an approach to Bowing, which may well suit a classical Violinist, will not necessarily suit Traditional Fiddlers, who may well be wishing to express their own emotions through the playing of an old tune. I think it unlikely that they would be able to express themselves fully, if all they were doing was simply slavishly copying a bowing pattern which had been handed down to them from a teacher!
I could be wrong, but is not this freedom to express yourself through your music, one of the major aspects which draws Classically trained musicians towards Trad & Jazz?
P.S. It could be argued, I suppose, that there may be a place for Synchronised Bowing on a concert platform, { although I personally prefer not to see such restraints put on Trad music } but surely never in a Session.
Ptarmigan, yes! - to all your points.
However, although you wouldn't (and certainly shouldn't!) get bowing restraints in a session what can happen with a group of good experienced session fiddlers who meet together regularly is that their bowing tends to synchronise subconsciously. This obviously isn't an imposed restraint, but other fiddlers present, of lesser experience and ability, will naturally tend to copy the more experienced. As someone here the other day said, "Monkey watch, monkey learn, monkey play".
In the James Morrison tunebook the author relates how The Professor had them practice a slow air for a recital with identical bowing, and if anyone made a mistake they would all start over.
I do understand that this was a special, performance-related circumstance -- and a learning situation for children -- but it does show that worked-out bowing patterns is not unknown in the tradition.
"who cares a f#### what Llig thinks" ......... Er perhaps Mrs Llig!
By the way Patrick, I'm curious, what are those 'four' letters after the f?
'ruit' or perhaps 'anny' or ...............
As to same bowing, in this video the wonderful Kane sisters play identical bowing for much of the time, which sounds nice I suppose, although if I'm being honest, it's not exactly my cup of tea. I just tend to think .... what's the point, there might as well just be one of them there!
That's it, I've done it now! Barred from Galway for LIFE!
However, the only time the music starts to sound interesting to me, is when one of them does something a little different! Somehow, for me at least, there seems to be so much more interest & energy created, when they go their own way with the tune. It's just a shame they stick together so much!
SH!T, what am I doing here, even thinking of judging their playing! Mind you, I'm sure they're not bothered what a bearded Scots Fiddle scraper thinks of their playing.
Here they are, sharing a tune on the front porch of their traditional Edinburgh Cabin, which nestles quietly on the lower slopes of the Blue Ridge Pentlands.
Couldn't the point here be, at least partially, that what is Irish tradition and what is Scots tradition might be different? Certainly the heritage of fiddle playing is very different with the Scots tradition much more based upon "classical" music tradition. I remember a Highland piper friend complaining that the Irish folks "couldn't even get their ornaments together." Just another example of the same kind of differing view points. I didn't personally care much for the video, but mostly because I didn't think much was happening musically not because they were playing with the same bowings.
Sean O'Riada's famously/infamously likened ceili bands to "bees in a jam jar". Was this because each player using different bowing and different ornamentations creates an overall fuzzy effect ?
I used to enjoy listening to fiddle tunes. I believe this may have been a combination of 2 things ~ I do not play strings & all I could do was listen. These days, with the advent of internet video clips & various musical forums, I spend far too much time critiquing (in my head) the technique of complete strangers on an instrument I do not even play. So when someone says, "why not use all the resources at your disposal in order to learn the tunes?" that is when I so appreciate the basic tradition.
Thank you my feathered friend ~ regardless of the instrument sessioning can be with gay abandon. It is not a great stretch to enjoy playing & allow the unison bowing (& the like) to fall by the wayside.
Well Dick, I'm not sure how to address your preoccupation with gay abandon but to answer your question "identical bowing like that looks just a wee bit odd in an Irish context, don't you think(sic)"...
The fiddle players in question are from the North East of Scotland and in the tradition in which they were brought up players learn tunes at first from sheet music and later by ear (as a general and over-simplified rule, with exceptions).
So really (apart from the fact that the fiddlers were invited guests at an Irish festival) the context is not Irish.
Also, they were taught this tune by a teacher they shared and so would both have learned the bowings from him.
Furthermore, the style of playing has fewer slurs compared with many other styles and so it is more likely, given that mostly separate bows are used, that a lot of the time the bowing will be matched.
Please let me know if this adequately addresses your point.
they're playing a scottish tune aren't they? Paddy's Leather Breeches? I imagine the appearance of Paddy in the title problematises that statement though!
Well FMF, so they learned to play in Scotland after all - interesting ................... although I guess not in Old Meldrum?
I notice that we guessed correctly that they both:
A ~ learned from the same teacher
&
B ~ learned from the dots.
Unfortunately it was one of the few Derrygonnelly fests I have missed, over the past dozen years. So of course they were not the first & I'm sure they won't be the last Scottish musicians to be invited.
I hope they had a brilliant time at the festival & enjoyed it enough to want to return.
I think it is interesting to note how their bowing made them stand out in this video, in that context.
I'm sure no one would have passed any remarks on it, had they been on stage at the likes Keith or Auchtermuchty festivals!
Fiddling with gay abandon!
Fiddling with gay abandon!
Check out the two fiddlers in the first group of this YouTube!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96wgQ-rkrCE
I haven't seen bowing cloned like that, since my days as a member of the 'Meldrum Fiddlers', in far off Aberdeenshire!
Maybe it's just me, & no harm to the two Fiddlers in question, they're doing a grand job, but identical bowing like that looks just a wee bit odd in an Irish context, don't you think.
Is this an indication that Fiddle tuition in Ireland is perhaps becoming a little too regimented?
In which case, I'm afraid ..... The end of the World is nigh!
Pray tell, what happened to the gay abandon of the Fiddler's Bow?
Cheers
Dick
# Posted on February 8th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Fiddling with gay abandon!
very poor
# Posted on February 8th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Fiddling with gay abandon!
They must both have learned the tune from the same dots--that is, detailed sheet music, complete with bow markings. What other explanation could there be?
Poor kids, they probably just don't know any better. Nice energy, though, considering.
# Posted on February 8th 2009 by tuckered out
Re: Fiddling with gay abandon!
How about posting something from days of the 'Meldrum Fiddlers', on SoundLantern, just to be fair to yourself?
# Posted on February 8th 2009 by Random_notes
Re: Fiddling with gay abandon!
The fiddle sound was a bit too recessed to judge properly. The sound is the thing, not what they look like they're doing visually. I wouldn't call it very poor, that being too harsh perhaps, though I think I've heard a lot better. I think. That's what Charlie Darwin wrote above his postulated tree of life diagram: "I think. " It was the 19th century's equivalent of "IMHO." Good man, Charles old chap.
# Posted on February 8th 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: Fiddling with gay abandon!
One of the musicians posted a comment to the video indicating that they are from the northeast of Scotland, perhaps even far off Aberdeenshire!
# Posted on February 8th 2009 by GaryAMartin
Re: Fiddling with gay abandon!
Was that Bill Clinton who walked in front of the camera??
# Posted on February 8th 2009 by feardearg
Re: Fiddling with gay abandon!
You might be right feardearg. His appearance is quite brief.
Here is a photo, of the former President, from the December 2000 cover of Esquire for comparison;)
http://www.esquire.com/cm/esquire/images/GB/halle-berry-2-1108-lg.jpg
# Posted on February 8th 2009 by Random_notes
Re: Fiddling with gay abandon!
This bowing in unison thing is Scottish, isn't it?
# Posted on February 8th 2009 by leoj
Re: Fiddling with gay abandon!
Aye Leoj, but only if you 'only' play in a Fiddle Orchestra!
Random ... Clinton never looked better!
Gary, believe it or not, there was a bunch of musicians at last year's festival. Hmmmm .......
"from the days of the 'Meldrum Fiddlers'" Random, believe me, you wouldn't want to hear it!
Or, let me rephrase that, you wouldn't want to hear me!
In any case, how is the sound of one fiddle, going to relate to a discussion on unison bowing practice?
Llig, why don't you say what you really think?
Aye Mickray, I'm sure you are probably right, same dots, same Fiddle teacher.
OK so far I guess, but I think it's high time he or she started encouraging them to start doing their own thing soon. Perhaps, learning their tunes by ear from lots of other sources, might be a useful next step for them?
Cheers
Dick
# Posted on February 8th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Fiddling with gay abandon!
Sorry Gary!
What I meant to say was:
a bunch of SCOTTISH musicians from ABERDEENSHIRE
Doh!
# Posted on February 8th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Fiddling with gay abandon!
Did you ever think that....maybe they are playing the same tune? Unusual I know for fiddle players, but it has been known to happen....duck....incoming!!!!
# Posted on February 8th 2009 by Free Reed
Re: Fiddling with gay abandon!
No Free Reed, it's quite normal for them to do so.
What is unusual though, is for Drummers to sound like they're playing the same tune!
# Posted on February 8th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Fiddling with gay abandon!
Synchronized bowing now an Olympic sport?
# Posted on February 8th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Fiddling with gay abandon!
"Synchronized bowing now an Olympic sport?" - only if classical orchestras are excluded
I've looked at the video linked in the initial post, but only the first few seconds - for some reason it wouldn't proceed further (I'll try again some other time). It was fairly obvious from what I saw that this was a band and not a session, so almost by definition there would have been rehearsals. Under such conditions you'll tend to get a natural uniformity in bowing arising between fiddle players playing the same notes (one unconsciously copies the other); you don't need instruction from a teacher.
There are good musical reasons for having some uniformity in bowing. It is because the bow is not a longitudinally symmetric structure, and is not held symmetrically (i.e. at both ends!). Consequently, there is a difference in attack, dynamics and articulation according to whether you're using an up-bow or a down-bow, and there will be a difference in the resulting sound. Obviously, this difference won't be all that apparent in the free-form session environment, but it will come out in the sound on more exposed and noise-free occasions; which is why classical players, in particular, go to some lengths to get the bowing right. Another reason - and this applies to Irish music and other kinds of music just as much as it applies to classical - is that if you use the wrong bowing phrasing can sound wrong or awkward, and there are some techniques the efficiency of which depends on the bowing.
Back in the Good Ol' Days of music (pre-19th century in my book) there was a dreadful shortage of pencils so orchestral parts generally weren't marked up. They got the desired uniformity of bowing (again to get the right dynamics, articulation and phrasing) by a combination of memory, experience, and following a few ground rules, chief among which was using a down bow on strong beats and at the beginning of a bar. The occasional exception would be memorised for that piece.
Putting on my cellist's hat, it is worth pointing out that bowing that may be suitable for the violin is not necessarily always suitable for the cello - a fact that is not always recognised even by some conductors. I remember a shouting match in an orchestra rehearsal some years ago between the leader of the cello section (not me) and the conductor (a woodwind player) who wanted uniformity in the bowing direction of all the string sections in a particular passage so that it would "look good to the audience". The lead cellist pointed out that using the violin's bowing would make that passage awkward if not downright difficult and would affect the overall ensemble. This argument was supported by the leader of the orchestra so the conductor climbed and countermanded his instructions.
Which leads me to the Orchestral Cellist's Prayer (what with today being Sunday and all that): "Lord, we beseech Thee to send us a Conductor who understands and implements the differences in bowing between the violin and the cello". This is especially apposite because my chamber orchestra is losing its present excellent conductor in April and we are holding auditions for a successor at the end of March.
# Posted on February 8th 2009 by lazyhound
Re: Fiddling with gay abandon!
"climbed down" - obviously
# Posted on February 8th 2009 by lazyhound
Re: Fiddling with gay abandon!
Hound, you said:
" .... it is worth pointing out that bowing that may be suitable for the violin is not necessarily always suitable for the cello."
I think it is also fair to say that an approach to Bowing, which may well suit a classical Violinist, will not necessarily suit Traditional Fiddlers, who may well be wishing to express their own emotions through the playing of an old tune. I think it unlikely that they would be able to express themselves fully, if all they were doing was simply slavishly copying a bowing pattern which had been handed down to them from a teacher!
I could be wrong, but is not this freedom to express yourself through your music, one of the major aspects which draws Classically trained musicians towards Trad & Jazz?
# Posted on February 8th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Fiddling with gay abandon!
P.S. It could be argued, I suppose, that there may be a place for Synchronised Bowing on a concert platform, { although I personally prefer not to see such restraints put on Trad music } but surely never in a Session.
# Posted on February 8th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Fiddling with gay abandon!
Ptarmigan, yes! - to all your points.
However, although you wouldn't (and certainly shouldn't!) get bowing restraints in a session what can happen with a group of good experienced session fiddlers who meet together regularly is that their bowing tends to synchronise subconsciously. This obviously isn't an imposed restraint, but other fiddlers present, of lesser experience and ability, will naturally tend to copy the more experienced. As someone here the other day said, "Monkey watch, monkey learn, monkey play".
# Posted on February 8th 2009 by lazyhound
Re: Fiddling with gay abandon!
In the James Morrison tunebook the author relates how The Professor had them practice a slow air for a recital with identical bowing, and if anyone made a mistake they would all start over.
I do understand that this was a special, performance-related circumstance -- and a learning situation for children -- but it does show that worked-out bowing patterns is not unknown in the tradition.
# Posted on February 8th 2009 by fidkid
Re: Fiddling with gay abandon!
"who cares a f#### what Llig thinks" ......... Er perhaps Mrs Llig!
By the way Patrick, I'm curious, what are those 'four' letters after the f?
'ruit' or perhaps 'anny' or ...............
As to same bowing, in this video the wonderful Kane sisters play identical bowing for much of the time, which sounds nice I suppose, although if I'm being honest, it's not exactly my cup of tea. I just tend to think .... what's the point, there might as well just be one of them there!
That's it, I've done it now! Barred from Galway for LIFE!
However, the only time the music starts to sound interesting to me, is when one of them does something a little different! Somehow, for me at least, there seems to be so much more interest & energy created, when they go their own way with the tune. It's just a shame they stick together so much!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVWF-l5nnHw
SH!T, what am I doing here, even thinking of judging their playing! Mind you, I'm sure they're not bothered what a bearded Scots Fiddle scraper thinks of their playing.
# Posted on February 8th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Fiddling with gay abandon!
I honestly didn't know they existed!
http://www.gayabandon.org.uk/
Puts a whole new slant on the title of this thread though!
# Posted on February 8th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Fiddling with gay abandon!
There is a Mrs. Llig?
# Posted on February 8th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: Fiddling with gay abandon!
Yes indeed Al. She plays Banjo.
Here they are, sharing a tune on the front porch of their traditional Edinburgh Cabin, which nestles quietly on the lower slopes of the Blue Ridge Pentlands.
http://www.geocities.com/Nashville/Stage/2462/images/fiddle_and_banjo.jpg
... & they have two sons too, who are of course steeped in the music.
http://www.celticconnections.com/images/pageimages/education/web_three%20boys%20and%20their%20bodhrans.jpg
# Posted on February 9th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Fiddling with gay abandon!
I think we're Mrs. Llig.
# Posted on February 9th 2009 by Random_notes
Re: Fiddling with gay abandon!
The drummer on the left looks like me. I want a paternity test.
# Posted on February 9th 2009 by Random_notes
Re: Fiddling with gay abandon!
If any inexperienced fiddler matched my bowing and I caught it, I'd mess with it on purpose.
"No, this is how you do it."
"...but you do it differently every time!"
"Exactly."
# Posted on February 9th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Fiddling with gay abandon!
Couldn't the point here be, at least partially, that what is Irish tradition and what is Scots tradition might be different? Certainly the heritage of fiddle playing is very different with the Scots tradition much more based upon "classical" music tradition. I remember a Highland piper friend complaining that the Irish folks "couldn't even get their ornaments together." Just another example of the same kind of differing view points. I didn't personally care much for the video, but mostly because I didn't think much was happening musically not because they were playing with the same bowings.
# Posted on February 9th 2009 by cboody
Re: Fiddling with gay abandon!
That lady banjo player on her front porch. Didn't she go on to play the part of the 'mother' in the Hitchcock movie 'Psycho'?
# Posted on February 9th 2009 by Free Reed
Re: Fiddling with gay abandon!
No F R, that was her sister: http://www.legendsofhorror.org/images/bates/ppic6.jpg
# Posted on February 9th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Fiddling with gay abandon!
Sean O'Riada's famously/infamously likened ceili bands to "bees in a jam jar". Was this because each player using different bowing and different ornamentations creates an overall fuzzy effect ?
# Posted on February 9th 2009 by SteelPlayer
Re: Fiddling with gay abandon!
I guess one persons fuzz, is another persons lively!
# Posted on February 9th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Fiddling with gay abandon!
I used to enjoy listening to fiddle tunes. I believe this may have been a combination of 2 things ~ I do not play strings & all I could do was listen. These days, with the advent of internet video clips & various musical forums, I spend far too much time critiquing (in my head) the technique of complete strangers on an instrument I do not even play. So when someone says, "why not use all the resources at your disposal in order to learn the tunes?" that is when I so appreciate the basic tradition.
Thank you my feathered friend ~ regardless of the instrument sessioning can be with gay abandon. It is not a great stretch to enjoy playing & allow the unison bowing (& the like) to fall by the wayside.
# Posted on February 9th 2009 by Random_notes
Re: Fiddling with gay abandon!
Well Dick, I'm not sure how to address your preoccupation with gay abandon but to answer your question "identical bowing like that looks just a wee bit odd in an Irish context, don't you think(sic)"...
The fiddle players in question are from the North East of Scotland and in the tradition in which they were brought up players learn tunes at first from sheet music and later by ear (as a general and over-simplified rule, with exceptions).
So really (apart from the fact that the fiddlers were invited guests at an Irish festival) the context is not Irish.
Also, they were taught this tune by a teacher they shared and so would both have learned the bowings from him.
Furthermore, the style of playing has fewer slurs compared with many other styles and so it is more likely, given that mostly separate bows are used, that a lot of the time the bowing will be matched.
Please let me know if this adequately addresses your point.
FMF
# Posted on February 9th 2009 by folkmasterflex
Re: Fiddling with gay abandon!
they're playing a scottish tune aren't they? Paddy's Leather Breeches? I imagine the appearance of Paddy in the title problematises that statement though!
# Posted on February 9th 2009 by pavlf
Re: Fiddling with gay abandon!
Well FMF, so they learned to play in Scotland after all - interesting ................... although I guess not in Old Meldrum?
I notice that we guessed correctly that they both:
A ~ learned from the same teacher
&
B ~ learned from the dots.
Unfortunately it was one of the few Derrygonnelly fests I have missed, over the past dozen years. So of course they were not the first & I'm sure they won't be the last Scottish musicians to be invited.
I hope they had a brilliant time at the festival & enjoyed it enough to want to return.
I think it is interesting to note how their bowing made them stand out in this video, in that context.
I'm sure no one would have passed any remarks on it, had they been on stage at the likes Keith or Auchtermuchty festivals!
Cheers
Dick
# Posted on February 9th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Fiddling with gay abandon!
not far from Old Meldrum - a lot closer to Keith!
# Posted on February 9th 2009 by folkmasterflex
Re: Fiddling with gay abandon!
Ahhhh, good old Huntly Toon!
# Posted on February 10th 2009 by Ptarmigan
Re: Fiddling with gay abandon!
You'd have heard better music from the 2 players who appear around 2m50s into the clip.
# Posted on February 12th 2009 by Kenny