During the process of trying to learn a wonderful tune... and it seems to be one of the best you've ever heard... and hearing, and hearing, and hearing it over and over again, and playing and playing it over again, it just doesn't seem to sound like it used to? The notes are buzzing in your head and you have to go to the basement and shut the door and have absolute silence to clear your mind... and the song never sounds the same again, because you have worn it out? Does anyone else suffer from this? It really is a nuisance because there must be a limit to good tunes in the world, or at least encompassing Irish traditional music, and if you wear out all the tunes, what next?
Of the n=4634 tunes confirmed tunes on irishtune.info, assuming 15% are real crackers and it takes you 1 week to wear out each tune (assuming the individuals employment level is n=0 and the amount of time playing is n=24/7) it would take you 13 years to run out of tunes. But then, tastes change and there are tunes which I used to despise but now tickle my fancies.
I think that's why if you go to a really good session, and it's
a bit out of your league, you won't know most of the tunes.
They've played the 300 or so common session tunes to death.
So now they're playing wierd stuff, or playing the old stuff
in wierd keys.
I've only run into this at festivals, I guess because
I go to the same session religiously every week.
I think it's more that the *tune* has worn *you* out!
I definitely used to experience a bit of a letdown once I learned a tune that I was interested in. Some of the magic used to seem to disappear, because you really have seen the man behind the curtain, and you now understand the "trick" of what used to sound tricky or interesting... But that's only on a very basic level of the tune.
I often take a "tired old standard" for a ride, just to see what new things I can discover about it. If you always play it exactly the same way, there's no doubt that you will get bored. But when I started reaching the level where I could *interpret* a tune, instead of just playing it the way I learned it, I found that it opened up a whole new realm of discovery about the music, and a whole new appreciation for all the tunes I know.
So if you're sick of a tune, put it on the shelf for a while, if need be, but then go back to it with a new perspective in the future. Try to find ways to play it that are more interesting. Try playing it with different feel. Try playing different ornamentation. Try playing it in a different key. Try making up a new variation or two for every single phrase. Try playing it slowly, with a soulful feel. Try playing it fast, with lift and drive. Try buying it dinner and getting it into bed...
I think you'll learn that you can re-discover the magic of "worn-out" tunes. And if the problem is that your session always plays it exactly the same, and that's what you're bored with, then you can take some of your new discoveries, and bring them back to the session to help other people re-discover the wonder...
Oh, and I would disagree with your idea that there would be some kind of limit to the number of good tunes in the world.
Yes, it's 12 simple little notes (well, more, because we have a couple of octaves to work with). But for the sake of argument, let's limit it to a 2 octave range in the key of D. So that's 14 notes in 2 octaves. And let's just take a single reel, for instance. That's 64 notes long. So mathematically, there would be 14^64 (14 to the power of 64) potential single reels in D. Let's say that only 1 in a BILLION of the possible single reels in D could be considered "good" (most of the potential tunes would jump around, and sound horrible... Or would be so close to other tunes that you wouldn't be able to tell the difference...). That still leaves 2.25x10^64 potential good single reels in D. That's on par with how many atoms there are in the Milky Way...
(BTW, this very idea was talked about in "The Science of Discworld II", by Ian Stewart, Jack Cohen, and Terry Pratchett... Good reading...)
Even the most worn out session tune can be transformed by a good player because they have reached in and pulled something new out of the bag. I love to hear old chestnuts revitalised.
Sometimes it has as much to do with the attitude of the player as it has to do with the technical or other ability.
Rev, I love the mental image of you buying the tune dinner and taking it to bed
Yes, it's all to do with the attitude of the player. The best tunes are bigger than you or I or anyone can ever be. You can't wear them out, it is they that wear you out.
If you find yourself in a situation where you are tired of a tune, it is only an illusion. The reality is that the tune is tired of you. You must make more of an effort so the tune can enjoy your playing once more.
And if you are not up to it, the tune will merely leave you alone. Though if you are lucky, it might come a knocking again some time in the future.
And the best tunes are so strong they can even withstand the desperate attempts of cretins to own them, to hold them so tight they strangle them. Yep, the best tunes can even withstand the enormous volume worldwide of nasty, vicious and sheer bloody murder.
Be careful. The most usual cause of a person thinking they've worn a tune out is because they've merely given it an intense throttling. Like water off a duck's back to the tune of course, but said throttler ends up knackered.
Interesting. Some new (to me) thoughts on an old topic here.
I must ponder the idea of tunes literally having a life and thoughts of their own, I am not sure I agree exactly just now. But, like any decent discussion, this one has me thinking.
Perhaps there is something to be said for a good tune being in some ways like a sort of "chemical reacton" or even "magical incantation"?
A given sequence of notes played at a certain tempo, with a certain "swing", does often seem to take on a power of its own to excite the emotions and imagination.
The first drum, the first whistle, the first bowed instrument, all the inital experiments - all possessed a quality of sound that demanded further investigation and perhaps the same applies to good tunes. (I am not certain this includes spoons)
I know I am not breaking any new ground.
Pardon my two cents.
I was at a session the other night and we played the High Road to Linton and Miss McLeod's. Oftentimes when I hear those a little part of me dies. But on this particular night it was amazing, a sort of transcendental moment of tune-playing. Those poor tired little tunes found new life.
I have heard really fantastic Shetland fiddlers playing Spootiskerry and it sounds great. Phrased the way good Shetland players phrase it, the tune isn't half bad.
I still enjoy tunes like Morrison's and the Kesh, those old Bothy Band standards. The Kesh especially is just so much fun to play.
I'm not making any new points here -- just reiterating what was said above. It's not what the tunes can do for you, it's what you can do for the tunes. Played well the most beat-up, unsound, broken winded three-legged warhorse can become a fit young colt again.
I think it's only after spending some years in apprenticeship and having learned a smattering of so-called "chestnuts" that you come -- after a while -- to appreciate that the chestnuts have infinite possibilities...it's all in the finessing of the tunes themselves...As Llig intimated the tunes are the limiting factor,it's our own technique and/or ideas of what to bring to the tunes that's the limititng factor.
It's really amazing to one day sit down and, say, play Out on the Ocean and to suddenly have this idea for a new take on this or that part or a new ornament to go here or there or a variation suddenly pop into one's head. Even the "simplest" tune is really a work of genius because its structure and melody is such that it invites and *allows* the player to add and subtract and vary things within it endlessly. And the best tunes -- and all the 'chestnuts' -- do that. And that's why they're such brilliant tunes.
The problem is with us beginner and mid-apprentice players especially...iisn't the tunes 'fault'...its ours and our lack of imagination and/or appreciation for the possibilities inherent in the music I think.
Erika...have you listened to Mick O'Brien and Caoimhín Ó Raghallaigh's cd Kitty Lie Over? there are lots of chestnuts on there played brilliantly.
So...if you want to understand how tired tunes can be given new life, give that one a listen. You'll be blown away.
Yeah, it's not that we're tired of the tunes, the tunes of tired of US foisting our lack of imagination on them.
And that's why this music is such an art. But a subtle one. The tunes don't shout in your face. But they do invite one to enter into a musical conversation -- and, yes, Reverend , maybe even dinner too!
Great stuff everybody. I see The Silver Spear is a fan of my re-working of JFK, eh? "Ask not what the tune can do for you..." HA!
Hear hear all. [thumps table] Also, I may add, hearing a terrible version of an old chestnut hopefully would inspire you to display to the offender how it should be cared for, you know, cook it dinner, nice bottle of wine, etc.
It's even more fun to play with a tune and have someone else notice your variation. Sharing the joy as it were. At first playing the tune is the fun. Next playing it with others is the fun. Then once well learned the tune becomes the foundation for the fun. Most people in the pub only hear the tunes, while the players don't hear the tune but the fun they are having with it.
From time to time I will drop in on my early loves. I have visited a particular washerwoman at times, when I think no one is listening. say what you will, my affection is still there. she doesn't have the same hold on me as when I was wide-eyed & infatuated. yet in ways I appreciate my former tune more than when we 1st met. her absence, well I'm not sure how this has affected things. she remains in my heart.
My new tunes are grand, these too only get better after playing around . . . it's metaphor you know. you get the idea.
Life goes on & there will always be more tunes.
go in the basement if you must. I believe a good session is best.
"Hear hear all. [thumps table] Also, I may add, hearing a terrible version of an old chestnut hopefully would inspire you to display to the offender how it should be cared for, you know, cook it dinner, nice bottle of wine, etc."
Worn-Out Tunes
Worn-Out Tunes
Does this ever happen to anyone else?
During the process of trying to learn a wonderful tune... and it seems to be one of the best you've ever heard... and hearing, and hearing, and hearing it over and over again, and playing and playing it over again, it just doesn't seem to sound like it used to? The notes are buzzing in your head and you have to go to the basement and shut the door and have absolute silence to clear your mind... and the song never sounds the same again, because you have worn it out? Does anyone else suffer from this? It really is a nuisance because there must be a limit to good tunes in the world, or at least encompassing Irish traditional music, and if you wear out all the tunes, what next?
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by erika-m
Re: Worn-Out Tunes
Of the n=4634 tunes confirmed tunes on irishtune.info, assuming 15% are real crackers and it takes you 1 week to wear out each tune (assuming the individuals employment level is n=0 and the amount of time playing is n=24/7) it would take you 13 years to run out of tunes. But then, tastes change and there are tunes which I used to despise but now tickle my fancies.
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by Splendid Isolation
Re: Worn-Out Tunes
I think that's why if you go to a really good session, and it's
a bit out of your league, you won't know most of the tunes.
They've played the 300 or so common session tunes to death.
So now they're playing wierd stuff, or playing the old stuff
in wierd keys.
I've only run into this at festivals, I guess because
I go to the same session religiously every week.
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by Hup
Re: Worn-Out Tunes
I think it's more that the *tune* has worn *you* out!
I definitely used to experience a bit of a letdown once I learned a tune that I was interested in. Some of the magic used to seem to disappear, because you really have seen the man behind the curtain, and you now understand the "trick" of what used to sound tricky or interesting... But that's only on a very basic level of the tune.
I often take a "tired old standard" for a ride, just to see what new things I can discover about it. If you always play it exactly the same way, there's no doubt that you will get bored. But when I started reaching the level where I could *interpret* a tune, instead of just playing it the way I learned it, I found that it opened up a whole new realm of discovery about the music, and a whole new appreciation for all the tunes I know.
So if you're sick of a tune, put it on the shelf for a while, if need be, but then go back to it with a new perspective in the future. Try to find ways to play it that are more interesting. Try playing it with different feel. Try playing different ornamentation. Try playing it in a different key. Try making up a new variation or two for every single phrase. Try playing it slowly, with a soulful feel. Try playing it fast, with lift and drive. Try buying it dinner and getting it into bed...
I think you'll learn that you can re-discover the magic of "worn-out" tunes. And if the problem is that your session always plays it exactly the same, and that's what you're bored with, then you can take some of your new discoveries, and bring them back to the session to help other people re-discover the wonder...
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by Reverend
Re: Worn-Out Tunes
Oh, and I would disagree with your idea that there would be some kind of limit to the number of good tunes in the world.
Yes, it's 12 simple little notes (well, more, because we have a couple of octaves to work with). But for the sake of argument, let's limit it to a 2 octave range in the key of D. So that's 14 notes in 2 octaves. And let's just take a single reel, for instance. That's 64 notes long. So mathematically, there would be 14^64 (14 to the power of 64) potential single reels in D. Let's say that only 1 in a BILLION of the possible single reels in D could be considered "good" (most of the potential tunes would jump around, and sound horrible... Or would be so close to other tunes that you wouldn't be able to tell the difference...). That still leaves 2.25x10^64 potential good single reels in D. That's on par with how many atoms there are in the Milky Way...
(BTW, this very idea was talked about in "The Science of Discworld II", by Ian Stewart, Jack Cohen, and Terry Pratchett... Good reading...)
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by Reverend
Re: Worn-Out Tunes
Tired of diddley? tired of life.
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by ...
Re: Worn-Out Tunes
Even the most worn out session tune can be transformed by a good player because they have reached in and pulled something new out of the bag. I love to hear old chestnuts revitalised.
Sometimes it has as much to do with the attitude of the player as it has to do with the technical or other ability.
Rev, I love the mental image of you buying the tune dinner and taking it to bed
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by Donough
Re: Worn-Out Tunes
Yes, it's all to do with the attitude of the player. The best tunes are bigger than you or I or anyone can ever be. You can't wear them out, it is they that wear you out.
If you find yourself in a situation where you are tired of a tune, it is only an illusion. The reality is that the tune is tired of you. You must make more of an effort so the tune can enjoy your playing once more.
And if you are not up to it, the tune will merely leave you alone. Though if you are lucky, it might come a knocking again some time in the future.
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by ...
Re: Worn-Out Tunes
Love it guys - inspiring stuff
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by Hup
Re: Worn-Out Tunes
And the best tunes are so strong they can even withstand the desperate attempts of cretins to own them, to hold them so tight they strangle them. Yep, the best tunes can even withstand the enormous volume worldwide of nasty, vicious and sheer bloody murder.
Be careful. The most usual cause of a person thinking they've worn a tune out is because they've merely given it an intense throttling. Like water off a duck's back to the tune of course, but said throttler ends up knackered.
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by ...
Re: Worn-Out Tunes
Interesting. Some new (to me) thoughts on an old topic here.
I must ponder the idea of tunes literally having a life and thoughts of their own, I am not sure I agree exactly just now. But, like any decent discussion, this one has me thinking.
Perhaps there is something to be said for a good tune being in some ways like a sort of "chemical reacton" or even "magical incantation"?
A given sequence of notes played at a certain tempo, with a certain "swing", does often seem to take on a power of its own to excite the emotions and imagination.
The first drum, the first whistle, the first bowed instrument, all the inital experiments - all possessed a quality of sound that demanded further investigation and perhaps the same applies to good tunes. (I am not certain this includes spoons)
I know I am not breaking any new ground.
Pardon my two cents.
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by Piece
Re: Worn-Out Tunes
I was at a session the other night and we played the High Road to Linton and Miss McLeod's. Oftentimes when I hear those a little part of me dies. But on this particular night it was amazing, a sort of transcendental moment of tune-playing. Those poor tired little tunes found new life.
I have heard really fantastic Shetland fiddlers playing Spootiskerry and it sounds great. Phrased the way good Shetland players phrase it, the tune isn't half bad.
I still enjoy tunes like Morrison's and the Kesh, those old Bothy Band standards. The Kesh especially is just so much fun to play.
I'm not making any new points here -- just reiterating what was said above. It's not what the tunes can do for you, it's what you can do for the tunes. Played well the most beat-up, unsound, broken winded three-legged warhorse can become a fit young colt again.
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Worn-Out Tunes
Old warhorses are fine, but most tunes get born with nae legs at all
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by ...
Re: Worn-Out Tunes
I think it's only after spending some years in apprenticeship and having learned a smattering of so-called "chestnuts" that you come -- after a while -- to appreciate that the chestnuts have infinite possibilities...it's all in the finessing of the tunes themselves...As Llig intimated the tunes are the limiting factor,it's our own technique and/or ideas of what to bring to the tunes that's the limititng factor.
It's really amazing to one day sit down and, say, play Out on the Ocean and to suddenly have this idea for a new take on this or that part or a new ornament to go here or there or a variation suddenly pop into one's head. Even the "simplest" tune is really a work of genius because its structure and melody is such that it invites and *allows* the player to add and subtract and vary things within it endlessly. And the best tunes -- and all the 'chestnuts' -- do that. And that's why they're such brilliant tunes.
The problem is with us beginner and mid-apprentice players especially...iisn't the tunes 'fault'...its ours and our lack of imagination and/or appreciation for the possibilities inherent in the music I think.
Erika...have you listened to Mick O'Brien and Caoimhín Ó Raghallaigh's cd Kitty Lie Over? there are lots of chestnuts on there played brilliantly.
So...if you want to understand how tired tunes can be given new life, give that one a listen. You'll be blown away.
Yeah, it's not that we're tired of the tunes, the tunes of tired of US foisting our lack of imagination on them.
And that's why this music is such an art. But a subtle one. The tunes don't shout in your face. But they do invite one to enter into a musical conversation -- and, yes, Reverend , maybe even dinner too!
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by skin&bow
Re: Worn-Out Tunes
sorry, should have read:
"the tunes are NOT the limiting factor"
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by skin&bow
Re: Worn-Out Tunes
Reverend, the tune seducer...
Great stuff everybody. I see The Silver Spear is a fan of my re-working of JFK, eh? "Ask not what the tune can do for you..." HA!
Hear hear all. [thumps table] Also, I may add, hearing a terrible version of an old chestnut hopefully would inspire you to display to the offender how it should be cared for, you know, cook it dinner, nice bottle of wine, etc.
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Worn-Out Tunes
It's even more fun to play with a tune and have someone else notice your variation. Sharing the joy as it were. At first playing the tune is the fun. Next playing it with others is the fun. Then once well learned the tune becomes the foundation for the fun. Most people in the pub only hear the tunes, while the players don't hear the tune but the fun they are having with it.
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by cjp
Re: Worn-Out Tunes
You can't get tired of diddley. Change the time signature, do variations.
The tunes are so strong they will carry themselves and provide a platform for infinite improv without losing their character.
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by zippydw
Re: Worn-Out Tunes
I *knew* I should have omitted the "buying it dinner" line with SWFL around!
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by Reverend
Re: Worn-Out Tunes
From time to time I will drop in on my early loves. I have visited a particular washerwoman at times, when I think no one is listening. say what you will, my affection is still there. she doesn't have the same hold on me as when I was wide-eyed & infatuated. yet in ways I appreciate my former tune more than when we 1st met. her absence, well I'm not sure how this has affected things. she remains in my heart.
My new tunes are grand, these too only get better after playing around . . . it's metaphor you know. you get the idea.
Life goes on & there will always be more tunes.
go in the basement if you must. I believe a good session is best.
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Worn-Out Tunes
HA HA! I try not to let any good innuendo go unrecognized!
...and that was some fine stuff there Rev, well done sir!
# Posted on February 2nd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Worn-Out Tunes
Thank you all for the advice.
# Posted on February 3rd 2009 by erika-m
Re: Worn-Out Tunes
"Hear hear all. [thumps table] Also, I may add, hearing a terrible version of an old chestnut hopefully would inspire you to display to the offender how it should be cared for, you know, cook it dinner, nice bottle of wine, etc."
Yeah, the High Road to Linton is great in bed.
# Posted on February 3rd 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Worn-Out Tunes
What I want to know is if you take the tune to bed is it just for intimacy or does it end up with progeny??
# Posted on February 3rd 2009 by Donough